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4,000-year-old Greek City Discovered Underwater -- three acres preserved that may rewrite Greek pre-history (speroforum.com)

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[–]bombesurprise[S] 499ポイント500ポイント  (216子コメント)

The team that found this city is on the search for Europe's oldest city, believed to be 8,000 years old, all underwater by now -- they may find even more cities like this. This three-acre site is surprising archaeologists because it contains massive stone defenses that they have never observed in Greece. The city, they say, is as old as the pyramids.

[–]mkelebay 226ポイント227ポイント  (91子コメント)

Holy fuck 8000 years old ?

[–]IamNoComedian 158ポイント159ポイント  (11子コメント)

They're still searching for it. Heres the quote,

The team is seeking to find evidence for the oldest village in Europe yet known to science, dating back at least 8,000 years ago.

This is what they found

Resting there for millennia, the remnants of an ancient Greek village of the 3rd millennium B.C. were found by divers just under the surface of the bay that forms part of the Argolic Gulf of southern Greece.

The team also found tools associated with the site, including obsidian blades dating to the Helladic period (3200 to 2050 BC), which can be divided into three phases.

and most astonishing

The walls that were found by the team are contemporaneous with the pyramids at Giza that were built around 2600-2500 B.C., as well as the Cycladic civilization (3200 to 2000 BC)

[–]platoandfriends 33ポイント34ポイント  (7子コメント)

I wonder what their TPQ is? How've they been able to establish the earliest date for the city?

[–]Vishnu-In-Disguise 24ポイント25ポイント  (6子コメント)

TPQ?

[–]EvidenceNeeded 58ポイント59ポイント  (4子コメント)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminus_post_quem

Terminus post quem ("limit after which", often abbreviated to TPQ). specify the known limits of dating for events. A terminus post quem is the earliest time the event may have happened.

Both terminus post quem and terminus ante quem are relative dating methods, and cannot provide an absolute date when an event occurred.

For example, consider an archaeological find of a burial that contains coins dating to 1588, 1595 and others less securely dated to 1590-1625. The terminus post quem for the burial would be the latest date established with certainty: in this case, 1595, based on the latest securely dated coin- the burial had to occur in 1595 or later. A secure dating of a younger coin to a later date would shift the terminus post quem.

[–]Vishnu-In-Disguise 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Awesome thanks, I suspected it had to do with dating.

[–]LogicalEmotion7 20ポイント21ポイント  (1子コメント)

Terminus post quem refers to gifts given before marriage, and Terminus ante quem refers to gifts given to other women after the divorce!

This way, you know roughly when the marriage happened.

It's called dating dating.

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      [–]masklinn 161ポイント162ポイント  (50子コメント)

      In southern Turkey and northern Syria, there are complexes which were abandoned more than 10000 years ago: Göbekli Tepe, Nevalı Çori or Mureybet (sadly the last two were lost to dams, only Göbekli remains)

      [–]BANNEDFROMALAMO 204ポイント205ポイント  (20子コメント)

      Can you imagine the history those places have?

      Fuck. I wish i could invent time travel just to observe other cultures.

      And tell myself to invest in Apple instead of Dell.

      [–]Acer132 29ポイント30ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Imagine watching an entire high speed video of a site like that. Like if someone went back in time an placed a camera with infinite battery there. I'd die to see something like that.

      [–]neververyoriginal 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

      That actually makes me think of the 60s version of the time machine; with it's stop motion world construction/destruction.

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        [–]underhunter 13ポイント14ポイント  (5子コメント)

        I always say, the coolest non super superpower would be to touch something and be able to absorb its history.

        [–]M21A1 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

        damn....... but, i mean, Dell didnt do too bad depending on when you invested (early to mid 90s??)........ its no apple but you might have done pretty ok

        [–]blackbart1 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Hijack, but don't bad mouth Dell. A lot of people got rich off that stock. I suspect you were just late to the party. $1k invested in Dell in 1988 was worth $580k at it's peak (3/22/2000) and still worth $138k when the stock went private.

        http://i.dell.com/sites/doccontent/corporate/secure/en/Documents/dell-closing-costs.pdf

        [–]masklinn 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        $1k invested in AAPL in 2003 are worth $1568k today ($1/share then, $112 now with a 2x and a 7x stock split). If you saw El Jobso coming and invested it during the stock's pits in the final days of 1997 (0.475, one more 2x split) and just held onto the stock, it's now worth 6600k.

        Investing in 1988 wasn't great though, stock was as high as it would get until the bubble and it just followed the 1987 stock split.

        [–]neggasauce 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Yeah but 538x your investment in 12 years is far from bad, I would be ecstatic.

        [–]BANNEDFROMALAMO 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Oh, I did ok with Dell. I just felt that Apple would die like Dell did and didnt invest.

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          [–]PM_ME_ONE_BTC 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Gobekli is fascinating

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            [–]magicsebi 45ポイント46ポイント  (15子コメント)

            We often underestimate the ancient civilizations and how advanced they actually were. I wonder how much was lost because of the Bronze Age Collapse.

            [–]DaerionB 26ポイント27ポイント  (11子コメント)

            We often underestimate the ancient civilizations and how advanced they actually were.

            Yes! For some reason some people think we went from being apes to building the pyramids in like 500 years. I really hope that someday someone will make a great movie or tv show about prehistoric people and the way they lived. Something like 10,000 B.C. only more historically correct and not utter shit.

            [–]justSFWthings 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

            My favorite part of 2001: A Space Odyssey (the book, specifically) was all of the prehistory stuff. You can tell it was very well researched and was as close to what life would have been like as early humans as Mr. Clarke could have gotten with the info available. Plus some imagination, obviously. :)

            [–]LeonidasRex 11ポイント12ポイント  (6子コメント)

            For some reason some people think we went from being apes to building the pyramids in like 500 years.

            This is interesting to me. First anatomically modern humans showed up like 200,000 years ago and the agricultural revolution was around 10,000 years ago with recorded history being about half that. People like you and me have been walking around for 200,000 years... 190,000 odd years of which we didn't do anything "cool" enough to talk about. This is of course not even mentioning the several million years of transition and various hominid species since some common ancestor split off from chimps or whatnot....

            The time scales blow my mind. We act like the pyramids were built a long time ago- they weren't, really. 4000ish years is a drop in the bucket relative to how long even proper modern humans have been around.

            [–]GreenStrong [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

            190,000 odd years of which we didn't do anything "cool" enough to talk about.

            This is based on studies of hunter- gatherer population in early modern history. They have sophisticated techniques for making things like fish nets or kayaks, they have a rich mythology, but their culture is much simpler than ours, because populations are harshly limited by their environment.

            Until Göbekli Tepe was unearthed, we assumed that the Hunter- gatherers of the ancient past were like the ones we have studied, forgetting that the most productive ecology was taken over by farmers centuries ago. Apparently the land around Göbekli Tepe grew wild types of cereal grains, and the only action necessary to ensure a harvest was to protect them from herbivores like wild horses- which also happen to be food. In these rich environments, sophisticated cultures took root. The Native Americans of the Pacific Northwest, who lived on the vast annual salmon run, are a historical example of a culture like this.

            [–]DaerionB [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

            190,000 odd years of which we didn't do anything "cool" enough to talk about.

            I thought the problem is that during that time nothing got written down. People probably did tons of cool stuff. The invention of language was pretty cool, I bet.

            [–]LeonidasRex [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Of course neat stuff happened and it's in the archaeological record to varying degrees I think- I mean humanity didn't just jump from 0 to pyramids. I was thinking along the lines of what you were saying about people thinking apes to pyramids in 500 years and there's a lot of stuff that doesn't get talked about. I definitely could have phrased that differently though lol.

            [–]jdsnype [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

            Industrial revolution was arguably just 300 years ago... and we built atomic bomb 70 years ago. We humans spent a fck ton (200,000 years) of time of doing nothing as advances like we are today. It makes me wonder if there was maybe a civilization several thousand years ago that were advance as if it was pre-1700 but was wiped out for some reason and all its advances are lost to the well of time.

            [–]LeonidasRex [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            The Greeks and Romans had some cool knowledge that wasn't "re-discovered" until the Middle Ages or so, although a lot of it just kinda floated through the Arab world and then back into Europe later. We still can't make concrete as good as the Romans did, we're pretty bad at it by comparison iirc.

            Edit: Also, 'Greek Fire'. We don't what it exactly was, but it was essentially ancient napalm and we didn't have anything similar until ~1940.

            [–]MCMXChris 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            there was a really good series on netflix called 'history of us' (I think?) that went through some stuff like this. Except not much 'prehistoric' people

            [–]Vio_ 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

            There was a huge Dark ages period in Greece that last a few centuries during the time of Homer where we just don't have any written records. Homer was blind and a poet who wrote in an oral style. The other problems include loss of all records beyond maybe a deep local history that can be passed as rumor, constant habitation or rebuilding over older sites, and a few others.

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              [–]RajaRajaC 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

              There are cities that are older. Dwaraka, in the gulf of Khambay has had artefacts dated from 7,500 BC making it at least 9,500 years old.

              [–]yobrodude 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

              7500 BC? wow, do you have any resources or citations for that? Will love to read about it

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                [–]ludicologist 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Aren't the pyramids about 4,000 years old?

                [–]IronMeltsinmyHands 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

                Is that older than Babylon?

                [–]justSFWthings 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

                Babylon was ~2000 BC if I remember correctly. :)

                EDIT: I stopped being lazy and went to wikipedia, which says 1894 BC. :)

                [–]IronMeltsinmyHands 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

                Babylon is considered the first civilization.

                If Babylon was about 2000 BC, and this city is about 8000 BC, can they see why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch?

                Seriously though, we just might need to reformat how we see ourselves.

                [–]saturninus [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                Sumer predates Babylon by 2,000 years. Egyptian and Chinese civilizations were also earlier.

                However, "civilization" signifies something more complex than agricultural settlements, which we can date back to roughly 10,000 years ago in the Middle East, Turkey, and China.

                [–]justSFWthings 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Abso-freaking-lutely. I've always read that Babylon was the first real city. Hmmmm.

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                  [–]Jakedubbleya 33ポイント34ポイント  (52子コメント)

                  Dude... that's... wow that just fucking throws a wrench in to a LOT of what we know about the ancient world if true. EXCITING!

                  [–]ryan101 183ポイント184ポイント  (9子コメント)

                  It's amazing to me that not only did they build all of this 4000 years ago, but they built it all under water.

                  [–]chapterpt 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  First genuine chuckle of the day

                  [–]kmacku 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  It was not impossible to build Rapture under the sea...

                  It was impossible to build it anywhere else!

                  [–]plomm 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Ancient scubaman knew how to get shit done.

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                    [–]dabigmanating 23ポイント24ポイント  (33子コメント)

                    Would you mind expanding on that? What conceptions of the ancient world does it change?

                    [–]Jakedubbleya 55ポイント56ポイント  (32子コメント)

                    The whole expansion of civilization from Mesopotamia! Perhaps very separate major culture(s) altogether! We have tons of evidence from all those civilizations that were inland and safe from rising sea, but to see Egyptian levels of technological know-how from other Mediterranean cultures shows a much more dynamic and active region! It's exciting to think of how many cultures could have participated only to be washed away. Even during the rise of Rome we hear of numerous, mysterious and powerful seafaring peoples that played big parts in that particular bit of history. To think that similar cultures were possibly even bigger players during early the era of Egypt is just so fascinating and could certainly redefine the way we look at Egyptian and Mesopotamian texts from the early bronze age :O

                    I'm no expert, I just love that early bit of human history and have always found the mysterious shoreline peoples of the Mediterranean to be some of the most fascinating characters ever! Were they pirates that abducted Egyptian artisans? Were they migrant/rogue Sumerians/Egyptians? Were they major trade partners that acquired the technology through gradual exposure?

                    What if they had their own technologically advanced culture? WHAT IF THEY INTRODUCED TECHNOLOGY SUCH AS BOATS TO EGYPT AND SUMERIA!?! Did they play any kind of significant role in the development of ancient Greek culture as we know it today?

                    I don't think this will answer any of those questions in any definitive way, but the possibilities seem to be incredible! How many incredible things lay just off the shores of Greece and other areas, washed away in the typical fashion of the region? Surely lots, judging by what we know of the region's history of mysterious coastal peoples :)

                    Aaaanyway, totally nerded out there and I'm definitely no expert. Just some of the possibilities that came to mind.

                    [–]Vio_ 18ポイント19ポイント  (5子コメント)

                    Let's not get too crazy with diffusionist theories about who taught what to which group. That's abig chunky trap without real evidence to back it up.

                    [–]Jakedubbleya 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

                    It's just a fun idea based on the dates of the technology. I hope my post didn't come across as anything other than enthusiastic conjecture from a complete amateur :p

                    [–]Vio_ 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

                    No no. I totally get it m, and encourage it. It's just archaeology has a complicated ethical and back history that is lacking in most sciences, and our culture is very much outdated and has bad information still floating around.

                    [–]Jakedubbleya 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

                    I know three very normal people that vehemently believe that aliens from a hidden planet in our solar system are responsible for just about everything. Thanks Zecharia Sitchin.

                    There's an infinite amount of fascinating things to learn about considering our short lifespans, I think some people just get overwhelmed and look for a fun conclusion. Thank god for the professionals, saving society from the nutters one facepalm at a time :)

                    [–]Vio_ 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

                    The problem is that the sexy Star Gate type bullshit gets conflated super easy with mainstream media and dissemination of people m. History Channel alone is a charnel house of bad history and archaeology. Because history is so backburnered by our education system, people know very little about actual, super easy verifiable history coupled with political groups trying to control and weaponize it for their own ends. Archaeology is even more of a tricky issue as it's not based on written records, but on digs and remains and artifacts. It's hard to fight, at times, "aliens did it" withMunsell color shifts in a horizon in a trench.

                    [–]lambsonight 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    So this probably isn't atlantis?

                    [–]r_e_k_r_u_l 7ポイント8ポイント  (6子コメント)

                    Sumer*, not Sumeria

                    [–]Jakedubbleya 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    Man that's about the five billionth time I've done that lol. I'll never learn.

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                      [–]McWaddle 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

                      Even during the rise of Rome we hear of numerous, mysterious and powerful seafaring peoples that played big parts in that particular bit of history. To think that similar cultures were possibly even bigger players during early the era of Egypt

                      The Sea Peoples

                      [–]dabigmanating 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

                      Ahh right ok! So, as usual, a great discovery creates more questions than answers. I always thought of the Ancient Egyptians as an advanced culture surrounded by lesser cultures, but, of course, that's a silly thought and obviously there were other cultures that aided or leeched off the Egyptian knowledge, no man is an Island and I presume that is the same for advanced cultures. This does seem pretty fascinating if there was an advanced culture in the Med at around that time. Might it help explain how the next big advanced culture that we are most aware of was the Ancient Greeks? Is this evidence for a cultural spread that started in Egypt and moved to Greece and hence the Romans?

                      [–]Vio_ 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

                      Technological advancements do not mean one culture is somehow more advanced or complex than other cultures

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                        [–]justSFWthings 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        I'm realizing more and more how excited I get by this stuff. I listened to one of the "Great Courses" lectures on ancient history and it touched on some of this which piqued my interest. I really want to learn more about the dawn of human civilization, and before that. If anyone has any books to recommend, I'm all ears! And, um, eyes? Which makes me sound like some kind of Lovecraftian horror...

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                            [–]MrFlibblesVeryCross 11ポイント12ポイント  (10子コメント)

                            Heres a 5000 year old settlement in Scotland

                            Theres also 850,000 year old human footprints in Norfolk in England

                            [–]Christ_on_a_Crakker 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

                            I thought carbon dating is only accurate to 50,000 years? How accurate is this?

                            [–]MrFlibblesVeryCross 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Im no Indiana Jones, maybe this video may help

                            EDIT: Theres also this: "The footprints were dated from the geology, lying beneath later glacial deposits and the fossil remains of extinct animals, which Simon Parfitt, of the Natural History Museum, has identified as including mammoth, an extinct type of horse and an early form of vole."

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                                [–]RelientB 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                8,000 years old? That's like 2,000 years older than earth! (Source: My mother, based on a book she got at church)

                                [–]odplocki 10ポイント11ポイント  (46子コメント)

                                ELI5 how can it be underwater???

                                [–]LuthorLexi 247ポイント248ポイント  (20子コメント)

                                The surface of the water is above it.

                                [–]alto_reed_tenor_sax 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                That was more of an ELY35D (explain like you're a 35 year old dad)

                                [–]awaiiken 29ポイント30ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                There are many, many ancient underwater cities all over the world. After the glaciers melted (I think about 7000 years ago, not quite sure), there was a rise in sea levels. This may have been accompanied by other geological problems such as earthquakes, volcanos, floods, tsunamis etc...

                                [–]odplocki 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                So there're hundreds of underwater cities, a?

                                [–]iFINALLYmadeAcomment 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                There are some cities, and a lot more rock formations that are debatable as to whether or not they occurred naturally.

                                Here's one example, off the coast of Japan - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yonaguni_Monument

                                [–]Doomdoomkittydoom 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                They are natural. The same sort of rock formations exist on nearby land and no one disputes those are natural.

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                                  [–]titaniumtoes 19ポイント20ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                  Rising water levels - those cities were built on low-land.

                                  [–]xzbobzx 33ポイント34ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                  They didn't hire enough Dutch people.

                                  [–]Prufrock451 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  And the region is tectonically active, with earthquakes and volcanoes. A quake could drop an area by ten feet - more than enough to flood a coastal town and topple its buildings.

                                  [–]TenYearsAPotato 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                  Most of Greece is slowly sinking and moving westward, each earthquake drops the level ever so slightly. Picture the Himalayas as the top of a blob of treacle and Greece at the edge. At the top sinks the edges spread out and get lower. See ALPIDE BELT

                                  [–]anarcurt 17ポイント18ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                  Last ice age ended 12,000 years ago (4,000 before this city). A lot of water became ice at the poles during the ice age. That ice as it melted acted in the same way as if you started dropping ice cubes in your glass of water...water that was out of the ocean was brought back in. This is the same reason global warming now is such a threat to coastal cities It's absolutely possible that places like Miami might become underwater in the same way without massive engineering projects.

                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_level_rise#/media/File:Post-Glacial_Sea_Level.png

                                  [–]mbanana 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  And since people tend to live around the coastlines, it's pretty exciting to think that some of the earliest history of human civilization might still just be sitting there underwater, awaiting discovery. I expect this find will be one of a great many eventually.

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                                    [–]maritimearchaeology 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    Underwater archaeologist here. We live on a dynamic and ever-changing planet. Sea-level change occurs for several reasons. There is global change (due to warming or cooling), but also isostatic or localized changes. Sea levels were much lower during the last Ice Age and seas rose after the ice melted. What is likely happening on this site is isostatic changes- with the massive weight of the ice gone, the Earth has been adjusting itself with some places lift and other places sinking by millimeter per year. Greece has quite a lot of both. The submerged city of Palvopetri is further down the coast and has artifacts dating to the Final Neolithic (or New Stone Age), so it is older but is smaller.

                                    TL;DR The world is constantly moving, so while it was built on dry land it is now being submerged by millimeters per year.

                                    [–]flashman7870 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    Water level was lower in the past.

                                    [–]ReihEhcsaSlaSthcin 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    Because what is coast becomes water over many time

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                                        [–]GreenAbbot 106ポイント107ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                        Know, O prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, there was an Age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars . . .

                                        [–]louiscyr 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                        "He was a man," said Conan. "I drink to his shade, and to the shade of the dog, who knew no fear." He quaffed part of the wine, then emptied the rest upon the floor, with a curious heathen gesture, and smashed the goblet. "The heads of ten Picts shall pay for his, and seven heads for the dog, who was a better warrior than many a man."

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                                          [–]ArtsyAttack 17ポイント18ポイント  (17子コメント)

                                          On somewhat related terms, if I weren't doing my B.Sc. in Engineering right now, Underwater Archaeologist would sound like a very appealing job. Any first-hand experiences in here?

                                          [–]DrSwervington 26ポイント27ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                          An underwater Archaeologist AMA is the AMA I never knew that I needed.

                                          [–]maritimearchaeology 9ポイント10ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                          I think I'm Reddit's resident underwater archaeologist- I've done an AMA both on /r/IAmA and /r/Shipwrecks in the past. I would be happy to answer questions if you have them!

                                          [–]Dr_Daniel_Jackson 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                          marry me and we can have semi-aquatic archaeologist children!

                                          [–]maritimearchaeology [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

                                          If our future lies in ruins, is it smart to bring children into that situation? ;)

                                          [–]spacezookeeper 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                          I didn't even know you could do a BS in engineering

                                          [–]cvnovice [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                          Well I can tell you for a fact you can not be an archaeologist with a bs, or even a ms. Most phd anthropologists who specialize in archaeology cannot even find work practicing.

                                          You need a phd, post doc, tons of field school experience, and then You better have some connections to people in high places if you ever plan on getting to run your own excavation.

                                          [–]fimari 53ポイント54ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                          If after the Nazi Gold Train Atlantis is found, I'm quite sure there is a man with whip involved.

                                          [–]sinkemlow11 23ポイント24ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                          Speaking of them... I wonder how feasible the Nazi plan to lower the Mediterranean was. If we could do it temporarily, imagine how much we would find that would completely re-write history.

                                          [–]Expiscor 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                          That isn't a Nazi plan. The guy was German sure, but he wasn't a Nazi

                                          [–]dripitydrip 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          Generic 1930s German man's plan doesn't have the same ring to it

                                          [–]HowDo_I_TurnThisOn 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          Or a dashing man with Emerald Green eyes.

                                          [–]miraclesubstance 46ポイント47ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                          Has anyone told Sid Meier about this? This could literally be a game changer.

                                          [–]rdrptr 27ポイント28ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                          Paved surfaces, which could be streets or the remains of structures, were also found by the divers.

                                          I can just hear two rival Greek archaeologists screaming at each other...

                                          "THEY'RE ROADS!!!"

                                          "NO THEY'RE WALLS!!"

                                          "ROADS!"

                                          "WALLS!!"

                                          [–]patron_vectras 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                          In the end, it could be both. Many early settlements used elevated access as protection and temperature control.

                                          [–]FluffyHippogriff 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          Meanwhile the graduate students are standing in the back and taking bets on how long the debate will go on this time.

                                          [–]o_MrBombastic_o 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                          Amazing discovery, but what got lost in the story is how pimp ass that solar boat they're on is

                                          [–]DrRabbitt 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                          yeah, as soon as I saw the solar ship I had to go find out more about it. its pretty amazing http://www.planetsolar.org/boat/sections/wallpapers

                                          [–]drunkerbrawler [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                                          If you are going for an environmentally friendly boat, why not a sail boat?

                                          [–]flashman7870 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                          I wonder if they spoke Mycenean, Pelasgian or Minoan? I'd imagine the latter considering the apparent prominence of mother goddesses.

                                          [–]AnnobalTapapiusRufus 21ポイント22ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                          While the language might be related, it is unlikely that the inhabitants spoke any of the three. There are many centuries between this city and the later civilizations that spoke those three languages. Languages change and movements of people can affect language too.

                                          [–]LastWordFreak 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          It's all Greek to me.

                                          [–]muckfouth 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                          It would be amazing if this turned over more than Schliemann's "discoveries" did

                                          [–]Kyranian 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          I am sure these discoveries will yield less fantasy and more substance. I'm surprised they didn't mention Atlantis. It would probably be harder for him to turn over these ruins. I mean I guess you can use dynamite underwater but...

                                          [–]CadsAndBinks 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          These finds are truly amazing and certainly can change what we think of as "true" history. Let's hope they find Atlantis next!

                                          [–]randoker 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                          I'm just a layman, but if the sea level has risen this much in the last 4,000 years or so and the earth is still emerging from its last mini ice age, doesn't that mean that at least some of the global warming is a natural process? And if so, what's the ratio of man-made to natural global warming? Off topic I know, but the sea level change brought it to mind.

                                          [–]NotHappyToBeHere 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          Climate change is natural, it gets hotter and colder on average over very long periods of time. The issue at hand when it comes to climate change is that it's been thrown out of whack and exacerbated by human activity, both industrial and agricultural. Normally since climate change happens so slowly animal and plantlife can adapt (that's the sort of timescale we're talking about), if it happens too fast nothing can adapt so things die out completely.

                                          [–]idontwantaname123 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          basically what scientists have found is that climate change is happening at an extremely quick rate (which might still be a long time in terms of a human's life). Climate change is always happening, but it happens slow enough for most species to not go extinct and adapt over a very long time (obviously some go extinct anyway, but not a large amount). Currently, climate change is happening quick enough to possibly be causing another major extinction (the proposed 6th major extinction that we know of). And it's proposed (generally confirmed by the scientific community) that humans are the reason climate change is happening faster than normal.

                                          The issue is not that the climate is changing, it's that humans are causing the climate to change really fast.

                                          Note: I'm just a layman, but this is my limited understanding of it when it's explained to me.

                                          [–]dangerousdave2244 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          Climate change happens naturally, but never at the rate seen in the 20th century. If you look at a trend line of global warming, it shows a slow, gradual increase until the industrial revolution, after which it starts to go up sharply, and in the 20th century, faster than ever in history. So there is natural climate change, warmer or cooler, but anthropogenic climate change is completely different and much more rapid.

                                          [–]braggouk 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          It's amazing that with all we think we know of the ancient world, we are still discovering things that have been lost for thousands of years.

                                          [–]Par__ 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          "Obsidian blades" Could.. could those be used to kill a white walker?

                                          [–]YXxTRUTHxXY [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                          This shouldn't surprise people! How much evidence must be provided to show the world there was life before The Great Flood ?!! I love these finds, but it's nothing but more evidence towards proving the Bible true. Thank you for sharing, it's inspiring. Keep it up archeology!

                                          [–]CanadaCommie 2ポイント3ポイント  (19子コメント)

                                          For anyone intereted in this type of thing check out Graham Hancock; he's got a bunch of books and a few documentaries, and just done a ton of research on ancient civilizations that were wiped out by the ice age and (usually) ended up underwater.

                                          He comes to some pretty far-out conclusions, but his world-wide research on these civilizations is pretty much unmatched. He's got a book coming out on Gobekli Tepe later this year.

                                          [–]PANTS_ARE_STUPID 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                          I like hearing Graham Hancock speak, but yeah, he does get a bit .. speculative. I just brush it off, just like when my uncle starts getting fired up about secret societies and Freemasons and such. You just need to wear your critical thinking hat when you listen to him and you'll be right.

                                          [–]Dirish 26ポイント27ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                          For anyone intereted in this type of thing check out Graham Hancock

                                          I'd recommend strongly against that. No historian or archaeologist takes him seriously and most of his work has been thoroughly debunked (he's a rather prolific writer, so I can't be sure if there's a proper rebuttal for all his work). I recommend watching the BBC documentary Atlantis Reborn Again to find out why he's so bad. Or do a search on his name in AskHistorians.

                                          Also the story behind this documentary is interesting because Hancock complained to BSC about the way he was portrayed in the original, Atlantis Reborn, documentary. And rather than apologise for one small complaint that was upheld, the BBC decided to remake it with a small change to one section.

                                          [–]831pm 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          One of the places Hancock talks about is Ankur. Its one of the more ambiguous sites he talks about because of the separate temples and I remember reading his work and thinking that Hancock is really reaching on this one...i.e, looking for connections that were not really there. However, I took a trip there a few years back and it changed my mind. You can really see the geometry of the specific temple formations. Also, the one really obvious thing is that some of the temples were built on top of much much older things. While the newer structures are well dated and recorded, the older things in the jungle are clearly much much older. Giant pillars literally just crumbling from time.

                                          [–]Mictlantecuhtli 7ポイント8ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                          He's a crackpot like Erich von Däniken

                                          [–]71241deathfromabove 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                          they have two completely different interpretation of world history, basically Hancock says that world history started way before the ancient cities in the bible, which is where modern civilisation archaeology starts. he thought that there might have been at least one civilisation that had the technology to sail around the world or at least trade around the world.

                                          he sited lots of archaeological finds which seemed to have a common ancestor even though they were separated by large bodies of water.

                                          archaeologist refuted his idea that if there were such a civilisation before modern history started that it would now be underneath the water and most civilisation crowd around the edges of the ocean. they said that this would not be the case due to the fact that the raising of the sea was too long before civilisation started.

                                          since then we have found gobekli tepi which pre dates most sites by thousands of years and now this city that seems to have been built before the last large rise in sea level, of course it could be due to an earth quake or something similar which made the ground sink.

                                          Von Daniken thought that aliens came down from space and used the naza line as a landing strip.

                                          totally different, the only similarity is that they used the same archaeological sites to try and prove different points.

                                          [–]lllogical 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          But they are very similar in many ways:

                                          1) neither of them have any formal training in the fields of archaeology and history, or the research methods of those fields

                                          2) neither of them have ever published any peer reviewed research

                                          3) neither of them is taken seriously by any actual historian or archaeologist

                                          4) they both have sold a lot of books, made a lot of money and gained a lot of followers during their long careers in pseudoscience

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                                              [–]flukus 1ポイント2ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                              Does this fit the time period of the "sea peoples"?

                                              [–]moeriscus 9ポイント10ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                              No, the "sea peoples" were toward the end of the Bronze age (around 1200 BC, give or take).

                                              [–]FruheVogel 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                              Could it be? The lost civilization of Atlanta?!

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