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[–]RonJenks2 12ポイント13ポイント  (61子コメント)

I agree. The ultra-left is well represented here and I don't mind that, but it makes it pretty difficult to have a real discussion on the realities of American politics.

Also a pretty surprising amount of centrist posters. Which is pretty odd... Someone was saying they'd probably vote for a democrat over any of the republican candidates. Like, do you know where you are???

edit and op is throwing the word "liberal" around like a pejorative. This thread is bizarre.

[–]werijoiwerp 14ポイント15ポイント  (39子コメント)

/r/SRSDiscussion debates devolve into this kind of thing pretty often for whatever reason. A while ago I read a discussion that somehow got completely focused around capitalism and African farming when that's not even what the thread was supposed to be about. And the Ferguson/Baltimore threads about what protestors should or should not be doing were very similar.

Honestly, and it sounds a bit rude to put it this way, people just come off as being very far up their own ass when they act like their pet ideology is somehow relevant to the real life consequences of things like who ends up being president.

[–][削除されました]  (37子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]werijoiwerp 13ポイント14ポイント  (34子コメント)

    "I'm a suburban white kid and let me tell you how to destroy capitalism so we can end racism"

    [–]ModestMaoist [スコア非表示]  (33子コメント)

    This tends to be the characterisation that middle-class liberals on SRS give of communists, and I'm not entirely sure why it's the case considering the fact that the large majority of communist uprisings throughout history were not led by white people and were certainly not suburban in character. Let's look at what a few prominent American PoC leaders have said on the issue.

    We're going to fight racism not with racism, but we're going to fight with solidarity. We say we're not going to fight capitalism with black capitalism, but we're going to fight it with socialism.

    -Fred Hampton

    The only path of liberation for black people is that which leads toward complete and radical overthrow of the capitalist class.

    -Angela Davis

    We have two evils to fight, capitalism and racism. We must destroy both racism and capitalism.

    -Huey Newton

    This is the era of Mao Tse-Tung, the era of world revolution and the Afro-American's struggle for liberation is a part of an invincible world-wide movement. Chairman Mao was the first world leader to elevate our people's struggle to the fold of the world revolution.

    -Robert F. Williams

    Here, I am not a Negro but a human being for the first time in my life ... I walk in full human dignity.

    -Paul Robeson [on visiting the USSR]

    I am not a communist ... On the other hand, I ... believe ... that Karl Marx ... put his finger squarely upon our difficulties ...

    -W.E.B. DuBois (he later joined the communist party at age 93)

    You can’t have capitalism without racism

    -Malcolm X

    These are just a few quotes from American Civil Rights figures, I could probably find some good ones from other PoC leaders that are even more forceful... here's one from Mao.

    The speedy development of the struggle of the American Negroes is a manifestation of sharpening class struggle and sharpening national struggle within the United States; it has been causing increasing anxiety among U.S. ruling circles. The Kennedy Administration is insidiously using dual tactics. On the one hand, it continues to connive at and take part in discrimination against Negroes and their persecution, and it even sends troops to suppress them. On the other hand, in the attempt to numb the fighting will of the Negro people and deceive the masses of the country, the Kennedy Administration is parading as an advocate of “the defence of human rights” and “the protection of the civil rights of Negroes,” calling upon the Negro people to exercise “restraint” and proposing the “civil rights legislation” to Congress. But more and more Negroes are seeing through these tactics of the Kennedy Administration. The fascist atrocities of the U.S. imperialists against the Negro people have exposed the true nature of so-called American democracy and freedom and revealed the inner link between the reactionary policies pursued by the U.S. Government at home and its policies of aggression abroad.

    I call on the workers, peasants, revolutionary intellectuals, enlightened elements of the bourgeoisie and other enlightened persons of all colours in the world, whether white, black, yellow or brown, to unite to oppose the racial discrimination practised by U.S. imperialism and support the American Negroes in their struggle against racial discrimination. In the final analysis, national struggle is a matter of class struggle. Among the whites in the United States, it is only the reactionary ruling circles who oppress the Negro people. They can in no way represent the workers, farmers, revolutionary intellectuals and other enlightened persons who comprise the overwhelming majority of the white people. At present, it is the handful of imperialists headed by the United Slates, and their supporters, the reactionaries in different countries, who are oppressing, committing aggression against and menacing the overwhelming majority of the nations and peoples of the world. We are in the majority and they are in the minority. At most, they make up less than 10 per cent of the 3,000 million population of the world. I am firmly convinced that, with the support of more than 90 per cent of the people of the world, the American Negroes will be victorious in their just struggle. The evil system of colonialism and imperialism arose and throve with the enslavement of Negroes and the trade in Negroes, and it will surely come to its end with the complete emancipation of the black people.

    I don't expect you to necessarily agree with these statements, I've provided them to show you that anti-capitalist PoC exist, despite liberal attempts to erase or marginalise their opinions (and in the case of some like Fred Hampton, outright assassinations because of their views).

    [–]werijoiwerp [スコア非表示]  (15子コメント)

    I am fully aware of that - i'm not a white suburban kid and i think capitalism is bad too. My point is the context in which it is brought up on SRSDiscussion smells of white liberalism.

    [–]ModestMaoist [スコア非表示]  (14子コメント)

    I am fully aware of that - i'm not a white suburban kid and i think capitalism is bad too. My point is the context in which it is brought up on SRSDiscussion smells of white liberalism.

    Not really, it usually appears more like young comrades of many races. Again, I'm not entirely sure why SRSers here are so determined to erase communist and socialist PoC. If you think that someone's argument smells of white liberalism, perhaps you could confront them with that fact.

    [–]werijoiwerp [スコア非表示]  (13子コメント)

    I'm a socialist PoC so IDK how I'm erasing them. I think you've missed my point.

    [–]ModestMaoist [スコア非表示]  (12子コメント)

    If you think I've missed your point you can simply restate it in terms which are more coherent.

    [–]werijoiwerp [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

    My main point was this: "Honestly, and it sounds a bit rude to put it this way, people just come off as being very far up their own ass when they act like their pet ideology is somehow relevant to the real life consequences of things like who ends up being president."

    Some people in this thread seem so divorced from reality when it comes to talking about this stuff.

    This comment pretty much says the same thing I'm trying to say: https://np.reddit.com/r/SRSDiscussion/comments/3hyx73/donald_trump_is_dangerous/cucx2vr

    [–]AWildBugHasAppeared [スコア非表示]  (16子コメント)

    This tends to be the characterisation that middle-class liberals on SRS give of communists, and I'm not entirely sure why it's the case considering the fact that the large majority of communist uprisings throughout history were not led by white people and were certainly not suburban in character.

    Because those communists talked with their hands instead of with their mouths. The academic and internet communist culture, at least in the west, is dominated mainly by people who have no clue of the gritty reality behind running a revolution or basically any kind of social change. Not to mention that most of the people you quoted realized that you can't call for a global communist uprising and be taken seriously in this day and age and so they, unlike the digital sickle wielders we see time and again, focussed on smaller goals instead.

    [–]asublimeduet [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    This is a vast oversimplification of revolutionary efforts both outside of and inside of the west. The abolition of the US empire is certainly necessary to establish a fully communist world, but the practice of existing communists has primarily been focused on strengthening a transitioning socialist state and supporting other states in their transition to communism.

    What is with this one-sided characterisation of communists on the Internet as armchair activists? I know many who are actively involved in local organisation as well as using the Internet to raise consciousness. My local organisation uses the Internet heavily to centralise information and distribute it. Do you deride the efforts of liberals who take to the Internet to aid their political causes as armchair activists? What do you think SRSD is?

    Any Marxist ideology rejects the utopian ideal of a revolution which spontaneously forms out of nothing and a communist future which can be portrayed in pure detail. Marxists build revolution as much as they enact it. A Marxist raises consciousness and educates and participates in discourse as they collectivise and unionise and work towards a revolution of the people. Furthermore, much Marxist theory, particularly of Marxism-Leninism and Marxism-Leninism-Maoism and derivatives, is dedicated towards revolutionary strategy and has been seen in action.

    Finally, as /u/ModestMaoist rightfully called you out for your insistence on ignoring the importance of communism in the Global South and to indigenous peoples, and the fact that it is active there in a revolutionary manner, your characterisation of the revolutionaries /u/ModestMaoist cited is frankly offensive. Many of them were assassinated or died as dedicated communists.

    [–]AWildBugHasAppeared [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    #NotAllCommunists...

    If I'm not complaining about you then don't fucking act as if I'm doing and attack me. I'm complaining about a well-defined, small but vocal section of armchair communists and you're blowing my cirtique way out of proportion.

    [–]asublimeduet [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    You literally did complain at me in another comment and compare me to MRAs and TERFs. Now you are rhetorically attacking me again via the comparison to notallmen, lol.

    You defended the SRSD characterisation of communists, that was the entire purpose of your comment. You were disgustingly revisionist about black revolutionary leaders, and specifically attacked this group you call small and well-defined as 'dominating' Internet culture and academia in the west, the characterisation of this group which I objected to the general application of against Marxist academics and also Internet activism (as I think likely many of the people you call armchair, and this sub considers armchair, are performing useful work online and offline, as much as any internet based liberal feminist and probably more), so I fail to see how I took your comment out of proportion.

    [–]ModestMaoist [スコア非表示]  (12子コメント)

    at least in the west

    Hahah still with this Eurocentric focus. Weird that people on SRS are so comfortable erasing PoC socialists when it suits their purposes.

    [–]AWildBugHasAppeared [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

    We were critiquing the discourse on this very sub. For the discussion we're having it's largely irrelevant what the Tamil think if none of them frequent this sub.

    Not to mention that this sub will gladly erase Europeans as well when their realities don't match up with the current flavor of middle-class american feminism, but I digress.

    Edit: I also just realized that my ire is mainly with those communists who seek theoretical purity over practical sollutions. The people you quted offered more answers to real-life problems than "dismantle capitalism" because they realized that the time was not ripe yet for that. My problem with some communist internet warriors is that they want to rush to the fireworks, because a communist uprising is cool and exciting and it'll solve their problems in a quick, bloody instant, but they don't realize that the foundations aren't there yet in many cases.

    [–]ModestMaoist [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

    It's a cycle. Communist PoC are chased out of SRS, then those who are remaining are criticised for being too white. It's a joke.

    [–]AWildBugHasAppeared [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

    SRS chases out anyone who doesn't subscribe to it's specific brand of feminism. That's the whole point of the Fempire and if you don't like it you can found your own.

    [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–]minimuminim[M] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Folks, if you want to talk about the posters in SRSDiscussion, please take it somewhere else, because it's a pretty massive derail. It belongs on a meta subreddit.

      [–]RonJenks2 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Yep. I don't have a problem with the ultra-left. But when your biggest contribution to the debate is to try to apply anarcho-communism, marxism, or some other extreme left politically impossible principles to a country like the United States, and asserting that those who disagree with you might as well be republicans, well now you're just turning a discussion about the reality of American politics into a theoretical circle jerk and it's definitely annoying as fuck.

      At any rate I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed.

      [–]sha742 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Lol never mind I scrolled down what the actual fuck

      [–]sha742 2ポイント3ポイント  (17子コメント)

      I'm sort of surprised the lack of Sanders support I've seen in this thread, honestly. I back Hill-dog as a matter of being a WTO shill, but again I'm surprised at the spectrum of ideology.

      I dig it, honestly. It's not divisive and it's not an echo chamber. It's like a rational quorum where the only shared belief is that people are and have systematically been dicks before.

      [–]RonJenks2 6ポイント7ポイント  (12子コメント)

      I don't know. I get the feeling a few of these communist posters don't really respect anyone who might fall to the right of their political ideology. I don't really care on a personal level but I'd say that's divisive.

      Though the points of view are diverse, I'll give you that. I've definitely learned something reading through these communist vs. capitalist debates even if they are irrelevant to the OP.

      And for the record I'm undecided between Sanders and Chillary, though I'm leaning towards Bernie. One way or another I think the GOP's current disarray is a win for the country.

      [–]sha742 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      No I agree, I went further down into the comments and for whatever reason posted.

      [–]Engelgrinder -2ポイント-1ポイント  (10子コメント)

      I get the feeling a few of these communist posters don't really respect anyone who might fall to the right of their political ideology.

      We don't respect those who "fall to the right" in the same way that feminists don't respect MRAs.

      [–]RonJenks2 9ポイント10ポイント  (9子コメント)

      Yeah. I get it. I'm not so far left as to be politically irrelevant in my country. And I don't equate capitalism with all of the social and economic injustices the planet endures. Which of course means I might as well be a racist, pro-life, xenophobic, reactionary men's rights activist who personally mugs homeless people in my free time.

      I don't really care if you like me. I just find it hard to talk to someone with such a poor grasp of nuance.

      [–]Engelgrinder -2ポイント-1ポイント  (8子コメント)

      Which of course means I might as well be a racist

      Yes. It's no coincidence that the history of capitalism is also a history of slavery, imperialism and colonialism which preys on the lives of PoC.

      As was stated earlier, all of the countries that are emerging today from under the shackles of colonialism are turning toward socialism. I don’t think it’s an accident. Most of the countries that were colonial powers were capitalist countries and the last bulwark of capitalism today is America and it’s impossible for a white person today to believe in capitalism and not believe in racism. You can’t have capitalism without racism. And if you find a person without racism and you happen to get that person into conversation and they have a philosophy that makes you sure they don’t have this racism in their outlook, usually they’re socialists or their political Philosophy is socialism.

      -Malcolm X, presumably a man with a good grasp of "nuance"

      [–]RonJenks2 7ポイント8ポイント  (7子コメント)

      That's a nice Malcolm quote. I'm glad I'm a socialist otherwise I'd be afraid you were calling me a racist for not agreeing with you.

      [–]Engelgrinder -2ポイント-1ポイント  (6子コメント)

      And I don't equate capitalism with all of the social and economic injustices the planet endures.

      [...]

      I'm glad I'm a socialist

      Glad we sorted that out so quickly. Welcome to the fold comrade!

      [–]RonJenks2 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

      You see the difference between me and you is I'm a pragmatist first and foremost. I don't find value in disqualifying potential allies for not aligning exactly with my political philosophy.

      I believe in coalition building, consensus finding, and yes, actually getting shit done. It's great fun to have theoretical debates on the internet all day, but when it comes time to actually make changes in the way my country functions, I don't live in a naive fantasy bubble where my angst and sheer power of will might accidentally get republicans to stop hating poor people.

      [–]Engelgrinder -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

      You see the difference between me and you is I'm a pragmatist first and foremost.

      I'm not entire sure pragmaticism works when you are making alliances with those who oppress marginalised peoples at the expense of those marginalised peoples.

      [–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      The thing is SRSD is mixed with liberal's and communists. Liberals don't support Sanders because of how anti trade he is. Communists don't like him because he isn't a communist, and he's advocated for war on multiple occasions.

      Sanders supporters (on reddit) tend to be the same people who supported Ron Paul and just want someone different.

      [–]mrtacoswildride 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

      I'm against Hillary because she's a-ok with the current security state, and am crossing my fingers for Sanders (who I disagree with economically) because he's against it. Presidents can't shift economic policy much except on the margin, but they can absolutely smash the security state.

      I know he's got a snowball's chance in hell, but maybe we'll all get lucky and 2017 will be a good year.

      [–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      What do you mean by security state? If your talking foreign policy Sanders has been pretty hawkish.

      [–]sha742 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      That's a good point. Honestly I don't know where I stand on the security and data issues. I honestly like the idea of a court being able to find deleted text messages/pictures if it's case-pertinent. I like the idea of drones patrolling instead of cops. The former's typically unarmed.

      [–]m120j [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      I actually wouldn't find it surprising to find centrist people here. At least as someone not incredibly familiar with the community here (I mean, I know a lot of SRSers are pretty far left, but if anything that surprises me) and just by using logic. I mean, SRS Prime is mainly an outlet for people voicing their anger regarding bigotry, racism, homophobia, sexism, and just general reddit grossness. That premise isn't directly related to destruction of capitalism/support of socialism, or anything political in general. I feel like if you were to walk up to a rando on the street and show them an average post that was posted on SRS prime they'd find it offensive. So I don't really understand how the whole SRS = far leftist thing came about.

      [–]Engelgrinder 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Similarly, liberalism is well represented here, and I don't mind that, but it makes it pretty difficult to have a real discussion on the realities of world politics.