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2015 Hugo Awards Discussion Thread (self.scifi)
Jourdy288 が 1日前 * 投稿
Alright folks, here's the place to discuss the 2015 Hugo Awards- you can watch live on Ustream right here.
EDIT: Here's where you can find 2015's winners.
[–]-Albus- 26ポイント27ポイント28ポイント 20時間前 (0子コメント)
For those curious, there were five categories where no Hugo was awarded - doubling the number of "no awards" in the history of the Hugos.
[–]somuchless 20ポイント21ポイント22ポイント 22時間前 (23子コメント)
Putting aside all the controversy, tons more people voted this year which is a net gain for the awards.
[–]Jourdy288[S] 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 21時間前 (21子コメント)
Agreed; however this year turns out, I think because of the increased attention, next year will be better.
[–]Pkeod 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 19時間前 (20子コメント)
It's great that more people are voting. It's not great that it's evident that this has become divisively political and not about the works but about who wrote the works. I don't know about next year being better. I have a feeling that 2016 Hugo Awards will be the year that the only award will be No Award.
[–]InfamousBrad 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 18時間前* (16子コメント)
That depends. There was a mathematically derived anti-slate rules change for the nominations that was going to be brought up in the business meeting, and I haven't heard yet how that went. My guess, based on what I saw last night, is it probably went pretty well. It was hashed out over on Making Light:
E Pluribus Hugo: Out of Many, A Hugo - the actual wording of the rule
E Pluribus Hugo: Post-Proposal Planning and To-Dos
E Pluribus Hugo: Community Q&A
If the rule passed, then what the Puppies (or any other slate) can do next year is all band together to nominate one item per category. If they try to sweep the nominations in each category, like they did this time, then none of their stuff will make it. Which means that if they, or any group, think that the problem is that their stuff isn't even being considered, it's still easy for them to nominate their best stuff, the one piece per category that the group thinks is the best. What they won't be able to do is push all of everybody else's stuff off the ballot, which is what they tried to do this year and failed hilariously.
Edited to add: Just read a comment, over on Making Light, clarifying that the Hugo rules changes don't get voted on until Sunday's business meeting, and that, even if they pass, they don't take effect until they've been ratified at next year's Worldcon in KCMO. So next year's voting will be done under the same rules as this year, so yeah, you may be right -- if the Puppies and the GamerGaters want to sweep the nominations for a second year, and there's no bigger counter-slate, then they probably can do it, one more time. In which case, yeah, expect a big sweep for No Award again.
[–]Pkeod 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 18時間前 (0子コメント)
Thanks for the links. I think unfortunately that system change proposal is still game-able to produce an eventual sweeping No Award result. It seems to assume certain behavior that has happened before will happen again with no change - reacting to current state of behavior only. It just requires more coordination from the varying groups for groups to get what they want.
The "we could have everyone but the ballot would be very long" argument is I think bad for the digital age.
[–]IAMPOUNDCAKE -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 13時間前 (13子コメント)
Puppies and the GamerGaters
These aren't synonymous.
[–]sotonohito 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 13時間前 (7子コメント)
For the purposes of the recent efforts to break and/or destroy the Hugos they are.
[–]IAMPOUNDCAKE 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
In what way? The only way this logic holds is if all Muslims are terrorists, or everyone who is right wing is anti woman.
[–]Pkeod 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 6時間前 (2子コメント)
GamerGate is not involved with this. It happened before GG even started, and it's not a primary concern of theirs. People are talking about it, doesn't mean they are involved... yet. GG is way larger than the puppies. If GG does get involved they would be able to choose who won every year if they wanted to unless an even larger group of people opposed to them got involved, but the way it seems to me many people in GG dislike the idea of getting involved. I would rather people vote based on merit and not on the politics of authors like some people say they do. Claiming things about GG which are not true is a very effective way to get their attention. The people lying about GG will only motivate them to get involved!
They were saying the Hugos were already broken and wanted to prove it, and were proved right according to GRRM! Their trap worked! Minorities and women were denied awards because of politics!
[–]sotonohito 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
Most reports indicate that the *Puppies got sufficient numbers to cheat by enlisting gamergaters. The *Puppies tried to cheat on the 2014 Hugos and failed because they lacked the numbers to obliterate all non-Puppy approved nominees in any category.
As for involvement from the gamergaters, I'm not really quaking in my boots. It costs $50 to become involved enough to actually have any impact on the outcome of the 2016 Hugos, and by 2017 the rules will have been changed to prevent brigading the votes at which point the *Puppies/gamergaters can go piss up a rope.
But, again, reports I've seen indicate that GG, always eager to find a new thing to brigade (I suppose they were disappointed there was no doxxing to be done, but hey brigading is almost as good, right?) were successfully enlisted to give Beale the numbers his slate needed.
Since GG is known mostly for lying, doxxing, and brigading, I'm afraid I can't take your huffy denial seriously.
And yes, the nominating process was known to be exploitable, previously expectations that people wouldn't act like raging assholes and fuck the system worked, but the *Puppies/GG are experts at being raging assholes so now the rules are being changed.
But, if nothing else, the *Puppies were proven quite wrong. After all, if there had been an Evil Liberal Conspiracy working to keep conservative fiction out, it would have locked out their slate.
Next year, before the fix can be implemented, there will be an anti-Puppy slate, and I think that sucks massively. The Hugos are supposed to be where you nominate stuff you like, not vote for a slate based on politics. But the *Puppies/GG love sticking their right wing culture war shit where it isn't welcome, so now we're stuck with it. At least until 2017 when the system will be fixed and, as previously noted, GG/Puppies can go piss up a rope at that point and the Hugos can go back to being nominations for books we like.
Here's a hint: if you have to cheat to get your books nominated for an award, it probably means your books suck.
[–]Pkeod 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 40分前 (0子コメント)
Most reports indicate that the *Puppies got sufficient numbers to cheat by enlisting gamergaters.
Where is the proof? I've been watching GG activity and I have not seen this. Also, cheat? What rule did the puppies cheat on? I get that doing things at as a group goes against the spirit, but they at least said they did it not to win but to expose it as being possible as they believed others were already doing it. If they wanted to win why wouldn't they have done it all covertly?
As for involvement from the gamergaters, I'm not really quaking in my boots. It costs $50 to become involved enough
As for involvement from the gamergaters, I'm not really quaking in my boots.
It costs $50 to become involved enough
GG are largely "hyper consumers" who spend money on what they like and are happy to vote with their wallets to buy what they like or support what they see as good causes. There are tens of thousands of them on kia alone, with many more elsewhere. Give them enough reason and they will part with the money to get involved.
and by 2017 the rules will have been changed to prevent brigading the votes at which point the *Puppies/gamergaters can go piss up a rope.
I looked at the changes they intend to make and it does not look like it will actually prevent large enough groups of coordinated people from getting who they want nominated. It's reactionary to current behavior only. I do think the changes are good, and they will make it more difficult for any group, any influencer to be able to get people to vote a certain way.
But, again, reports I've seen indicate that GG, always eager to find a new thing to brigade
Even if they do get involved, they should want to vote on merit and not politics. They are enthusiast who value quality. They refuse to boycott as a group creators based on their politics, and want products to stand on their own. There are many scifi fans in GG. Most scifi fans at large have never gotten involved with the Hugos. The Hugos are supposed to be a fan aware. Surely more fans voting no matter who they are would be a victory.
I suppose they were disappointed there was no doxxing to be done, but hey brigading is almost as good, right?
Doxing is one x not two.
GG is known for things because so many people and media outlets have been lazy at repeating a narrative of lies about GG. But the attacks against GG have largely backfired as GG has grown so big in part because of the lies told about them. People wanted to see for themselves, only to see that they are largely reasonable, thoughtful people who care about issues that matter for consumers. They are used to being slandered and libeled by people who are willing to be dishonest to push for ideological purity. It's expected at this point. I have been called "one of the worst harassers" by people who lazily believed what others said just because I followed certain people on twitter. Not for anything I did to anyone, but because I followed a diverse set of people and some of the people that I followed certain ideologues deemed me guilty by association. I'm sick of it. I am sick of the ideologues. GG is huge, diverse, and not what you are saying it is, they are not doing what you say they are doing. People in GG have been victims of everything GG has been accused of. People against GG even say things like "there are no bad tactics, only bad targets".
And yes, the nominating process was known to be exploitable, previously expectations that people wouldn't act like raging assholes and fuck the system worked
It was alleged that some groups and influencers were already exploiting the system but doing it less obviously. Fixing the system is better than letting it be exploited again and again by people doing bad things below the surface. It took people doing it completely publicly for people to get motivated to try to fix it.
But, if nothing else, the *Puppies were proven quite wrong.
GRRM himself said the puppies were proved right.
After all, if there had been an Evil Liberal Conspiracy working to keep conservative fiction out, it would have locked out their slate.
I identify with liberal politics. I support a lot of social justice concepts. But I also care about nuance and the facts. Extremists on the left and the right dislike me because I refuse to treat politics like supporting sports teams and instead want to look at individual issues on their own.
As I understand the way things have been going, it was less about pushing conservatives out, and more about people and companies with influence using their influence to get who they wanted to win, which naturally pushed out others who were not in the in group of those with the influence, in part what the puppies alleged, and also what they were able to do with the nominations to illustrate it being able to be done. It's alleged that in the past the same kind of behavior was already happening without the puppies doing it. The puppies didn't want to win, but to show that it was being done by proving they could do it.
But the *Puppies/GG love sticking their right wing culture war shit where it isn't welcome, so now we're stuck with it.
It's anti-authoritarian culture, pro creative freedom, pro facts, anti censorship, pro merit, pro free market culture. GG is largely left leaning liberals and moderates! Saying they are right wing is a way for people who knee jerk hate conservatives to dismiss those they disagree with. Extremists on the left call anyone not as extreme as they are as being right wing.
I have seen people admit to voting purely for political and ideological reasons. They say they only vote for people whose politics they find tasteful.
I dislike this mess too. I'm saddened by it.
[–]sudoku7 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 10時間前 (2子コメント)
Especially once you consider Vox Day.
[–]IAMPOUNDCAKE 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
You do realize that most within GG don't like him right, me among them? And I say that after getting started in this sub with defending his right to speak. :)
[–]ben242 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
And I say that after getting started in this sub with defending his right to speak. :)
Is anyone attacking his right to speak, or just the things he's saying?
[–]InfamousBrad 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 9時間前 (4子コメント)
Cripes, it's months so I don't think I can find the links, but I remember that part of how the Rabid Puppies were able to get so many nominations in was that they reached out to the GamerGate channel on 4chan, where all you have to do is whisper "SJW" to raise a mob.
[–]JCSalomon 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 9時間前 (0子コメント)
Funny. Everything I read from KiA looked like, “Oh look, SF/F has the same problem we do. We’re not involved, but we can cheer from the sidelines.”
[–]too_clever_username 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
GamerGate channel on 4chan
u wot m8?
[–]IAMPOUNDCAKE 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5時間前* (0子コメント)
That was postulated, but once you look at the the votes, and how they have grown organically, its rather absurd. Not to mention that stuff about the puppies didn't hit until well after. No one had really heard of Vox Day and company until people started getting blamed for stuff.
Even further than that, the Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies aren't even synonymous. :)
Edit: Also, its good to know that the tactics are still being served here too.
[–]lordthat100188 -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 30分前 (0子コメント)
You do not know what you are talking about. 4chan is vehemently anti gamergate, and gamergate hasn't been a topic talked about on 4chan since the begining of GG. There are no channels on 4chan, and 4chan is SJW except for a handful of boards.
[–]lordthat100188 -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 40分前 (0子コメント)
I think the puppies win just based on how the hugos are taking their ball and going home. They voted no award 5 times, and are now getting pissy and changing the rules. Maybe next time don't make someones identity more important than the art and this won't happen. I personally have lost a LOT of respect for the hugo awards after this past year, and many authors in the sci fi community as well.
[–]Flofinator 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 8時間前 (0子コメント)
It's been political since the end of the 90's early 2000's. I don't necessarily agree with what the puppies did, but I also think it's bullshit that people of the wrong political ideology were kept from winning Hugo's as well. Which is what we've had for a decade and a half.
I used to be interested in the Hugo awards and tried to read many of the Hugo award winning books, but it stopped being about the quality of the books and more about who wrote it. Now they are just mad because they are having their shit thrown back at them.
I think the puppies should've started their own awards, based on what the Hugo's used to be about. Based on merit of how well the book was written on not whether you voted Democrat or not. The Hugo's are a joke and have been for a while. Why anyone would want to win one is beyond me. It's a fashion show/popularity contest now.
[–]Jourdy288[S] 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 19時間前 (1子コメント)
Oh hey, how's your new Faerie game going?
[–]Pkeod 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 19時間前 (0子コメント)
Have several FaeVerse games in development at the moment. FaeVerse Solitaire is huge and in polish stage. FaeVerse Alchemy is on early access on Steam. We have other card related projects too... Building lots of cool things while trying to not get distracted by the noise of all of this drama. Also writing every day!
[–]_lightfantastic 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 19時間前 (0子コメント)
Hopefully next year all those new voters who came to offset the slate voting remember to nominate as well. Only way to avoid stuff like this happening in the future.
[–]InfamousBrad 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 21時間前 (0子コメント)
If you can't watch the video, it's also being covered via real-time text updates at thehugoawards.org.
[–]-Albus- 14ポイント15ポイント16ポイント 21時間前* (25子コメント)
Best line of the night so far: "I'd like to thank the patriarchy." lolololololololol
Edit: Ok, Connie Willis' commentary beats even that.
[–]InfamousBrad 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 20時間前 (24子コメント)
Do you figure that "Women Destroy Science Fiction" and "Women Destroy Fantasy" had a lot to do with Lightspeed's win?
[–]-Albus- 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 20時間前 (23子コメント)
Probably - from the commentary I'm reading, the awards given seem to be a complete rejection of the sad puppies, which is excellent.
[–]jmk4422 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 19時間前 (21子コメント)
They'll figure out a way to claim victory anyway.
[–]phunphun 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 19時間前 (10子コメント)
If Twitter is any indication, they already have.
[–]Pkeod 22ポイント23ポイント24ポイント 18時間前 (9子コメント)
They got exactly what they wanted to be shown according to GRRM.
Most of them, frankly, suck. And the mere fact that so many people are discussing them makes me think that the Puppies won. They started this whole thing by saying the Hugo Awards were rigged to exclude them. That is completely untrue, as I believe I demonstrated conclusively in my last post. So what is happening now? The people on MY SIDE, the trufans and SMOFs and good guys, are having an endless circle jerk trying to come up with a foolproof way to RIG THE HUGOS AND EXCLUDE THEM. God DAMN, people. You are proving them right.
http://grrm.livejournal.com/418643.html
[–]phunphun 19ポイント20ポイント21ポイント 18時間前 (8子コメント)
So the sad puppies wanted to prove that everyone is excluding them by... rigging the system to exclude everyone else, and declared the win condition to be when the "other side" did the same and actually excluded them?
Tell me how this is anything but a dick move.
[–]Pkeod 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 18時間前 (1子コメント)
everyone is excluding them by
It seemed like their concerns were more like that influential people published lists of people they were supporting to their friends and audiences, and that this had a strong effect on who actually won.
rigging the system to exclude everyone else
They proved that the nomination method that is in use is flawed enough to need to be changed, and really may have already been gamed in the past too. The admins are attempting to fix this flaw now as a result. It may take a few years or more to find a system that can't be gamed by any coordinated group, which may never happen unless they take voting all digital and skip nominations entirely.
It seemed like they were some frustrated people who wanted to expose what they saw as problems. Maybe you should talk with some of them? I see a lot of people practically dehumanizing them. They are human beings with thoughts and feelings, and contrary to popular belief they are diverse in every way. I see a lot of unfortunate hate and attacking from people who are supposed to be the good guys.
I think it's sad that some authors didn't get to win anything this year just because the puppies liked their work.
[–]Byrnhildr_Sedai 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 11時間前 (0子コメント)
I think the biggest issue is the amount of overlap between the SP and RP slates. SP were trying to make a point, Vox and Co was just being well Vox.
[–]YouMadeMePost -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 8時間前 (5子コメント)
They didn't 'rig the system' the system was rigged already, which is what they wanted to prove. They abided by the rules of the awards completely. Those that oppose them just didn't expect those broken rules to come back to haunt them.
If the Hugos 2016 voting system changes, the puppies got what they wanted because if it changes for them it changes for everyone.
It boggles my mind that despite the sad puppies aims being crystal clear from day 1, those that have a vested interest against them are still trying to convince themselves and others that their intentions were something else. It's not even something you need to speculate on. It's easily researchable. Why does everyone become so intellectually dishonest when they start drawing ideological lines in the sand? It's disgusting.
[–]hAND_OUT 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 6時間前 (4子コメント)
There's a difference between a system having an existing exploitable vulnerabilty, and someone actually going out of the way to exploit that vulnerability.
[–]YouMadeMePost -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 6時間前* (3子コメント)
So I assume this also applies to the 'anti-puppies' who effectively used slate voting to get the 'no award' options to stick?
[+]urection スコアが基準値未満のコメント-19ポイント-18ポイント-17ポイント 17時間前 (9子コメント)
their public stated goal was not to win awards but to prove voting blocs exist and that as a result the Hugos are not awarded on merit
they did that in spades; no one except tumblrinas will ever use the Hugo awards as a guide to quality sci fi ever again
[–]Mjolnir2000 18ポイント19ポイント20ポイント 17時間前 (3子コメント)
If voting blocs existed, then why did their slate result in nominations? Surely in order to prove their point, they would have had to have lost even with cheating.
[–]taylororo 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 16時間前 (1子コメント)
perhaps they meant to prove that voting blocs exist and that hugos are not awarded on merit by being that voting bloc which is unconcerned with merit!!! Viewed that way, they were right!!!
Its like that time I yelled at my waitress for no reason just to prove that terrible customers exist.
[–]michel_v -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 12時間前 (0子コメント)
Or that time when some trolls set out to prove that jet fuel can't melt steel beams.
[–]michel_v 12ポイント13ポイント14ポイント 17時間前 (0子コメント)
Note that they'll never bring evidence that such voting blocs have occurred in the past.
[–]GGCObscurica 15ポイント16ポイント17ポイント 16時間前 (4子コメント)
So in order to prove that there's no voting bloc, the rest of scifi/fantasy fandom just had to roll over and let the Puppies steal away the awards en masse, eh?
Nice fucking try.
[+]urection スコアが基準値未満のコメント-13ポイント-12ポイント-11ポイント 15時間前 (3子コメント)
scorched earth will surely restore fan faith in the award
[–]GGCObscurica 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 15時間前 (2子コメント)
The integrity of the votes were compromised the moment you moist asswipes decided to stick it to the "sjws" by opting to produce a slate. The options were binary from thereon: either roll over to the lobbying, or actively mitigate it. You think trying to game the ballots means nobody fights back? The idiocy of playground bullies.
[+]urection スコアが基準値未満のコメント-14ポイント-13ポイント-12ポイント 15時間前 (1子コメント)
"the only way to prove you weren't being shut out was to demonstrably and publicly shut you out"
exactly as predicted
puppies played the Hugos like a fiddle
[–]GGCObscurica 13ポイント14ポイント15ポイント 15時間前 (0子コメント)
Or in a more accurate interpretation of the Puppies' stance: "GIVE US AWARDS OR YOU'RE MEANIES."
Everybody else: "fuck off."
[+]JDepinet スコアが基準値未満のコメント-10ポイント-9ポイント-8ポイント 19時間前 (0子コメント)
plot twist, the sad puppies all voted no award to prove a point...
[–]eremiticjude 20ポイント21ポイント22ポイント 19時間前 (40子コメント)
HAHA wow. apparently this year's statue should have been in the shape of a rolled up newpaper. a more or less complete rejection of the sadpuppy/sickpuppy slate. unless i'm mistaken the only thing from their slate to win was Guardians of the Galaxy and that was a pretty long reach in the first place anyway. Instead, a bunch of translated works won. The voters picked diversity or no one instead of bigots. nicely done hugo voters.
[+]JCSalomon スコアが基準値未満のコメント-11ポイント-10ポイント-9ポイント 19時間前* (3子コメント)
By what measure was the list of winners more diverse than the Sad Puppies list?
No, really: what were the percentages of women, various ethnic groups, etc. on the two lists?
ETA: Right, three lists. The Rabid Puppies list does have a rather high representation for the “John C. Wright” group.
[–]eremiticjude 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 18時間前 (2子コメント)
hahahahahahaha
i'm just going to assume that wasn't a serious question
[–][削除されました] 17時間前 (1子コメント)
[deleted]
[–]JeffreyPetersen 14ポイント15ポイント16ポイント 16時間前 (0子コメント)
Having the same couple guys nominated over and over again is basically the definition of non-diverse.
[+]non_consensual スコアが基準値未満のコメント-15ポイント-14ポイント-13ポイント 13時間前 (11子コメント)
You... don't know what the word "bigot" means, do you?
[–]eremiticjude 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 8時間前 (10子コメント)
Vox day is a bigot and literally every sensible person involved in the conversation says so
[–]non_consensual 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 7時間前 (9子コメント)
Sad Puppies aren't bigots. Are they?
[–]eremiticjude 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 7時間前 (8子コメント)
Before this debacle I think you probably would have not found a lot of people who would have applied the label to Torgersen or Correia but they rode in on a cart pulled by the devil himself for all functional purposes and they've yet to repudiated him. So it's going to be hard to claim they don't deserve to be painted with the same brush. Despite the fact that their own politics, though further right of most of the sci fi/fantasy community's, aren't abhorrent like vox days. I may not love the nra but it's not like either of them think women should lose the right to vote or that african Americans are "savages", both statements vox day has made and stands by.
Torgersen wasn't well known outside the community before this but Correia was a well selling author. I will be curious to see what, if any, impact it will have on his sales to have his name associated with comments like those and this overall clusterfuck
[–]non_consensual 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 7時間前 (7子コメント)
I don't think that's very fair.
Shouldn't books be judged by their contents and not the authors? History is rife with bad people creating good art.
[–]eremiticjude 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 7時間前 (6子コメント)
Why should we focus on merit when they aren't? They gamed the voting system to play politics and introduced a bunch of authors who, speaking of merit, in more than a few cases would never in a million years have deserved a Hugo (To say nothing of being morally repugnant), but who they believed fit their political template of "proper" sci fi.
[–]HoopyFreud 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
Why should we focus on merit when they aren't?
Because it's the right thing to do.
[–]non_consensual -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 7時間前 (4子コメント)
So you're admitting there's a clique looking to keep certain authors out of the industry? That's exactly what Sad Puppies accused you of, and you went and proved them right. Just like George R.R. Martin said.
In my opinion books should be judged on their content. Not whether or not you like the author.
[–]eremiticjude -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 6時間前 (3子コメント)
That we was applied to this conversation not any kind of awards but for the record you ignored my response. Vox and his crew did exactly what you railed against. Yet you seem to have no problem with them doing it. What's up with that?
[+]non_consensual スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7ポイント-6ポイント-5ポイント 6時間前 (2子コメント)
"Vox and his crew" simply put forth material to be voted on. You and your crew actively kept them from receiving awards. Do you honestly not see the difference in that? One is promoting art, one is stifling art.
[+]urection スコアが基準値未満のコメント-26ポイント-25ポイント-24ポイント 17時間前 (17子コメント)
[–]AlasPoorJoric 27ポイント28ポイント29ポイント 14時間前 (0子コメント)
If there was really a voting bloc of "SJW"/"liberal"/leftist fans, how come a mere 500-600 "Puppies" could sweep the nominations? If the Best Novel was simply chosen because of the fact that the author was Chinese, how come even Vox Day apparently had it as no. 1 on his vote (according to his post-Hugo blog)? Based on my taste (mostly Hard Scifi) and merit, 3 Body Problem was my pick of the nominees.
[–]eremiticjude 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 8時間前 (0子コメント)
Sure buddy. And gamergate was about ethics in journalism
[–]ALLAH_WAS_A_SANDWORM 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 7時間前 (14子コメント)
"This awards are rigged against us, and we're going to prove by waltzing an entire slate into the nominees in a way that wouldn't have worked at it if there actually was any sort of rigging against us going on".
[–]squigs 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
The puppies showed that they were more organised at the nomination phase.
Now, last year, the puppies managed to get a number of works from their slate onto the ballot. How many of them were ranked below "no award"?
This year it looks like most of them were.
So, either this year's slate was considerably worse than last years, or there was a more organised campaign against them.
[–]urection -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 6時間前 (12子コメント)
shrug
https://twitter.com/ImJohnsirz/status/635475865694945280
[–]AlasPoorJoric 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 6時間前 (10子コメント)
Guardians of the Galaxy was on the "puppy" lists and still took Best Dramatic Presentation, Long Form. So people weren't JUST voting against the "puppies", even if the puppies nominated a worthy title. A lot of push back though, for sure. Apparently Scifi/Fantasy fans don't appreciate having their award turned into a culture war by a bunch of right-wing Americans. Last time something like this happened was when the Scientologists tried to bloc vote L Ron Hubbard a Hugo.
[+]urection スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7ポイント-6ポイント-5ポイント 6時間前 (9子コメント)
yeah cockroaches don't like it when you turn the lights on
[–]AlasPoorJoric 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 6時間前 (8子コメント)
More like the "puppies" were just completely mistaken about who the hardcore, convention going/supporting scifi/fantasy fans are, and what they actually like. After all, if the Hugos were purely a populist award, it'd go to the likes of Veronica Roth, Suzanne Collins and Stephenie Meyer.
[–]urection -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 5時間前 (7子コメント)
who the hardcore, convention going/supporting scifi/fantasy fans are, and what they actually like.
you can keep saying they voted organically, but the data very convincingly shows otherwise
reals > feels bruh
[–]AlasPoorJoric -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 2時間前 (6子コメント)
Of course they've been voting organically, that's why 500 "puppies" managed to take over the nominations. Then as the data shows, the vast majority (3000-3,500 voters) expressed their disgust with the bloc voting tactic by voting "No Award" for their candidates. The winner of the Best Novel award (the most important category), wouldn't have even made it onto the list if not for Kloos' withdrawing.
[–]urection -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 2時間前 (5子コメント)
so we agree they voted that way because of politics and not anything to do with what they actually "like"
good
[–]TweetsInCommentsBot 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
@ImJohnsirz
2015-08-23 15:37 UTC This guys gets it #Hugoawards #SadPuppies [Attached pic] [Imgur rehost]
2015-08-23 15:37 UTC
This guys gets it #Hugoawards #SadPuppies
[Attached pic] [Imgur rehost]
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[–]Esrou -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 9時間前 (5子コメント)
bigots
[–]ALLAH_WAS_A_SANDWORM 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 7時間前 (4子コメント)
Well, yes. Calling Vox Day a bigot gives run-of-the-mill bigots a bad name.
[+]Esrou スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 6時間前 (3子コメント)
So just because the puppy people supported those authors it made the authors bigots?
[–]ALLAH_WAS_A_SANDWORM 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 5時間前 (2子コメント)
Vox Day pushed himself into two different nominations. So yes, in that particular case it was a case of picking No Award over a bigot. No buts or ifs around that.
[–]Esrou 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
Oh I had thought there was more than one author nominated, but if it was only Vox then yeah he was a bigot.
Kinda odd that that the voting was only for one author or no one in at least two of the categories but five categories had no award...
[–]lordthat100188 -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 18分前 (0子コメント)
So you are admitting that the art had nothing to do with it. That you would vote no purely because of who they are rather than what they made? Thats exactly what they are fucking accusing you of, and this sentiment is repeated over and over the thread.
[–]HoopyFreud 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 8時間前* (1子コメント)
What a fucking disaster of a shitshow. No best novella, no best short, no best editor. No Award was above at least two nominees in zine categories. Only the winner stayed above No Award for the Campbell.
Regardless of where the Hugos go from here, this year has been an unmitigated disaster, and it's obvious that the reputation of the Hugos, possibly the most widely respected democratic award in writing, has been badly hurt. There is too much bad faith in the air. Yes, the Hugos have had a reputation of being clique-ish for decades. No, by stuffing ballots you haven't made it better.
The victims here are us, the readers, and authors like Annie Bellet, whose fantastic piece in the Apocalypse Triptych is part of one of my favorite short story anthology projects in the last few years. She withdrew from the awards because, in her words, "this has become about something very different than great science fiction." Not that it mattered, since No Award got the votes, not an author who deserved them.
Good fucking night, and see you all at the World Fantasy Awards.
[–]ThisDerpForSale -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
She withdrew because she didn't want to be associated with Beale, Correia, or Torgesson. And the latter two used to be friends of hers. No more.
[–]Exmond 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 11時間前 (0子コメント)
Sad to see Jim butcher didn'tChet best novel. Also seeing the controversy unfold and rather than ignore it and give books a chance to stand on their own people banded together and voted for no award makes me sad. This has definetly made me think less of the hugos.
[–]YouMadeMePost 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 8時間前 (9子コメント)
So basically the puppies thing was proved right, it is about politics and who's deemed permissible. Rather than let puppy slate nominees win, the social justice crowd closed ranks and used scorched earth tactics taking out decent innocent writers in the process. They've given Pyrrhus a run for his money.
What a shambles.
[–]_lightfantastic 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 8時間前 (8子コメント)
I guess "scorched earth" is the new internet reactionary talking point du jour. I see a lot of parrots squawking that one today.
Anyway, No Award won out because the majority of the voters decided that the works nominated weren't deserving of awards. End of story. Maybe next year if the Puppies want to nominate conservative writers work they should actually consult with actual members of conservative sci-fi fandom and find what the most deserving authors and books are as opposed to just stoking the anger of whiny culture warriors who haven't read any of the books and nominating Correia's and Day's hack buddies.
Conservative authors have won in the past, there are plenty of talented conservative authors in sci-fi and fantasy who write traditional sci-fi that can and will win in the future, the Puppies slates didn't nominate any works of real merit and thus they were deservedly No Awarded.
[–]YouMadeMePost -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 8時間前 (7子コメント)
Anyway, No Award won out because the majority of the voters decided that the works nominated weren't deserving of awards. End of story
Utter crap. they didn't even look at the works, they just looked at what the puppies were voting and reacted accordingly. This was an organised mobbing, not a genuine vote.
Maybe next year if the Puppies want to nominate conservative writers work...
They actually had a variety of nominees, and not just 'conservative'. But maybe if you keep repeating such nonsense it'll come true.
[–]_lightfantastic 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 7時間前* (2子コメント)
And you have proof that nobody looked at the works right? I mean I'm sure you read all the Hugo Award novels from last year and this year to justify your belief that there is some sort of EVIL SJW bias right? I'm sure you certainly don't have an axe to grind and are just jumping on a bandwagon even though you don't really care about the Hugos or science fiction right?
Oh and Corriea related works were nominated for an entire category themselves, John C. Wright had three stories in one category, and almost every person nominated from their slates was either one of Correia's or Day's pals, so I don't really know where this variety of nominees stuff is coming from. I don't particularly think I'm the one here that is repeating nonsense.
[–]YouMadeMePost -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 7時間前 (1子コメント)
And you have proof that nobody looked at the works right?
There's a clear 'paper trail' that this was organised by two Tor employees to undermine the puppies slate and no other reason. Plenty of 'I'm putting no award and not even reading them' comments on social media/blogs followed this.
I mean I'm sure you read all the Hugo Award novels from last year and this year to justify your belief that there is some sort of EVIL SJW bias right?
Or I'm just a sci-fi fan who thinks fairness and honesty trumps ideological leanings and only watched this whole thing from the sidelines. Doesn't fit your narrative as well though, does it?
[...]and almost every person nominated from their slates was either one of Correia's or Day's pals
Nice save. I'm aware of at least two who were nominated who were absolutely not aligned with anyone in either the puppies camps and took to their personal blogs to air their grievances of the 'association' and sad that they might win an award under those circumstances. It's disturbing we can be at a point where that's a thing, and not think 'hey, something isn't right here'.
Think whatever you want mate, I'm past caring.
[–]_lightfantastic 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
Ah yes. The two Tor employees that the company itself distanced themselves from. Then again, I forget that Tor is just an evil leftist outfit that publishes books by filthy socialists like Orson Scott Card and John C. Wright.
"Honesty trumps ideological leanings which is why I believe there is a vast SJW conspiracy and that leftist writers don't win awards based on their own merit. Narrative narrative narrative."
Yeah there were a few authors and publications who objected to the idea of politics based slate voting and removed themselves from the ballots because of it. I agree that it is disturbing we are at that point, but I suspect it is probably not for the same reasons as you.
But okay mate, you are right and you obviously really don't care. Guess it is just about ethics in being "non-political" where your default political stance just happens to be the non-political one, right?
[–]mjfgates 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3時間前 (2子コメント)
I looked at them. The two best things on the Puppy slates were "Totaled", basically "Flowers for Algernon" with poorer characterization; and "Turncoat", classic bad milSF with one plot twist which was given away by the title. Then you get into the other crap, your "Left Behind But With Cute Fuzzy Animals," "Segway Convoy Fulla Ghosts," "Book of Random Tweets About '0bama' Har De Har Har," and so on. They shoved "Jackelope Wives" and The Three-Body Problem off the ballot for THIS? Feh.
[–]InfamousBrad 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 12分前 (0子コメント)
And that's one of the things that, as far as I can tell, neither of the Puppies groups gets. Yes, there is visible bias on the literary Hugos, one that's been argued about for years -- heck, there have been suggested rules changes to try to fix one of them:
Hugo voters, above all else, want novelty. Originality. Do something that's been done before and you will not win. If you don't have a new take on whatever trope you're working on, it's not going to win a Hugo.
Hugo voters assume that if it's a YA novel, there's no originality. They're wrong -- occasionally. (I'm still carrying a grudge that Westerfield's Uglies didn't win its year.)
Hugo voters assume that if it's urban fantasy, there's no originality. Again, they're wrong, occasionally, but good luck getting them to even look at one. (I'm still carrying an even older grudge that Bull's War for the Oaks didn't win its year.)
The only other consistent bias is that neither the book nor the author be known for a political or moral position that's overtly repellent.
That latter one is the one that sticks in Vox Day's craw, because frankly, that his level of misogyny and racism is considered repellent by 99% of the human race just means that the rest of us are wrong, which must mean that we just haven't heard his sterling arguments for why white men are so much better than everybody else. So if he could just get us to read his stuff, the whole world would be better off.
But to stir up enough of a crowd to do that, he has to tell mainstream conservatives that there's a liberal conspiracy against them, too -- which is nonsense easily debunked by an even trivial glance at the history of the award.
[–]HoopyFreud 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2分前 (0子コメント)
Three Body Problem won, fyi
[–]ALLAH_WAS_A_SANDWORM 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
they didn't even look at the works, they just looked at what the puppies were voting and reacted accordingly.
So, how's being an omniscient mind reader working out for you?
[+]Tiberius666 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-13ポイント-12ポイント-11ポイント 14時間前* (9子コメント)
This year was an absolute bloody farce.
No award for you, your politics are wrong.
The way that this ended up this year has proven that if you aren't part of the clique and paying lip service to it, you'll be ostracised for it.
What a complete joke.
/edit: evidently this sub agrees with this horseshit, fuck this sub, I'm done.
[–]kojima100 13ポイント14ポイント15ポイント 11時間前 (1子コメント)
No award for you, you work isn't good enough for a Hugo
FTFY
[–]lordthat100188 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4分前 (0子コメント)
That is absolute crap and you know it. You dont have to look far in this thread to see that political warriors on both sides (far more left than not) have wrecked this.
[–]geniice 16ポイント17ポイント18ポイント 13時間前 (6子コメント)
Not consistent with the higher voter numbers.
The results are most consistent with an attempt to reject a political takeover.
[–]elsparkodiablo -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 10時間前 (5子コメント)
Not really. Look at the numbers needed to nominate. The numbers voted are substantially higher showing a massive reactionary influx due in no small part to the "woe is me, VOTE NO AWARD" posturing.
[–]SpaceMarines 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 6時間前 (4子コメント)
Historically, there have always been far more people doing the voting than doing the nominating. This year is no different.
[–]elsparkodiablo 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 6時間前 (3子コメント)
Compare the historical totals to this year.
[–]SpaceMarines 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 5時間前 (2子コメント)
2014: 1923 nominating ballots, 3587 final ballots
2013: 1343 nominating ballots, 1843 final ballots
2012: 1101 nominating ballots, 1922 final ballots
2011: 1006 nominating ballots, 2100 final ballots
2010: 864 nominating ballots, 1094 final ballots
2009: couldn't find total nominating ballots figure
2008: 483 nominating ballots, 895 final ballots
Couldn't find total numbers for earlier dates.
Not gonna do a statistical analysis, but there's considerably more final ballots than nominating ballots, with a few exceptions.
http://www.thehugoawards.org/hugo-history/
[–]elsparkodiablo -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 4時間前 (1子コメント)
More than the number of total voters last year nominated this year, and nearly double that voted. If you don't think that's a massive influx, sparked in no small measure due to the "OMG PUPPIES, NO AWARD!!!" screeching, I don't know what to tell you.
[–]SpaceMarines 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
The sheer numbers were greater this year, yes, but I wasn't arguing that. I was simply saying that there's always been considerably more votes than nominations. In that regard, this year is no different than previous ones.
π Rendered by PID 17625 on app-160 at 2015-08-24 01:52:31.544367+00:00 running ce2b5b1 country code: JP.
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[–]lordthat100188 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント (0子コメント)
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[–]elsparkodiablo 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント (3子コメント)
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