全 151 件のコメント

[–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 30ポイント31ポイント  (23子コメント)

You are right that Trump represents the worst of the conservative party, but I do think that it is unfair to say "most" republicans.

He is only around 25%, which is about 12% of the whole country. It shouldn't be much of a surprise that 12% of the country is as bigoted as Trump is.

The mainstream republican candidates have recognized that appealing to bigots is not the way to win the general election. So Trump stepped in and took that vote. It is similar to how Hillary knows that appealing to social democrats is not the way to win a general election so Bernie Sanders stepped in.

Once a few of the mainstream candidates drop out they will consolidate around one mainstream republican (Kasich, Bush, Fiorina, Walker or Rubio) and they will win the primary.

This is one of the problems with the US two party system. In the UK Trump would be running as the UKIP candidate and would pull in 12% of the vote without sabotaging the Conservatives, and Sander's would do the same with a more liberal party without sabotaging Hilary. But since we are forced into two parties the extremes of both sides are forced to run with the mainstream candidates.

[–]eisagi 24ポイント25ポイント  (0子コメント)

Most of the other Republicans support the same policies. They just talk more diplomatically. The right wing has been insane for years - pretty much since Reagan won the nomination in 1980.

Rubio just came out against birthright citizenship, for example.

[–]smarmodon 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

I saw a poll that had him at 40%, above Clinton's 38% and "Deez Nuts" at 9%.

[–]SisterRayVU 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

That was North Carolina.

[–]evilpenguin234 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Speaking as someone from North Carolina, those results don't surprise me at all

[–]Nurglings [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

"Deez Nuts" at 9%

what

[–]lazurz [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

A 15 year old filled out the registration paperwork as "Deez Nuts". Apparently, someone at Public Policy Polling thought his name was hilarious, so threw him into a poll as sort of a measure for how much people were basing their choices off of just the name of the candidates.

Source

[–]draw_it_now 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just FYI, the British system isn't much better - yes, smaller parties can carve out their place in the house of commons, but it's still a first-past-the-post system. Only two monolithic parties can take centre stage at any one point.

edit: Also, UKIP is stealing votes... from Labour, the left-wing socialist party. Turns out, Working class people are left-wing economically, but right-wing culturally.

[–]beIIe-and-sebastian [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Labour are not a left wing socialist party and haven't been since the 80s. They're a centre right social Democratic Party.

The scottish social party or Green Party are left wing socialist parties.

[–]Justice_Prince 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

He might still run as a third party if he doesn't win the primary in which case he'd be taking about 6% from the Republicans (half of his 12% would stick with the party), and all but guarantee the win to the Democrat candidate.

[–]Gordyman[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (10子コメント)

IMO it's either going to be Hillary vs Trump or Hillary, another GOP candidate, and Trump running as an independent. But yea, the two party system is flawed as hell.

[–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 9ポイント10ポイント  (9子コメント)

The thing is if Trump runs as an independent then the Democrat is basically guaranteed a win because trump will likely get 5-10% of the vote (the bigots). But the same is true if Sanders ran as an independent. That is where the system is flawed. But at the same time it does rob the extremes of both sides from any real sense of organization, which can be seen as a positive or negative depending on your views.

Trump has over 50% of the Republican's who say that they don't like him so he won't win the primary. Remember in 2012 the Republican's in the lead at this time were Santorum, Huckabee and Cain. Romney didn't pull ahead until he knocked out the other moderates. It is unlikely that he will be able to get more people on his side at this point.

Trump has consolidated the bigot vote, no one has consolidated any other block of voters.

[–]smarmodon 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

Sanders said he'd step aside if Hilary won the primary too.

[–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah, I'm just using him as an example. A real life example would be Nader in 2000, he lost Gore the election. Or Ross Perot in 1992.

[–]SisterRayVU 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Gore lost himself the election, and he still won.

[–]smarmodon 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

NADERRRRRRR!

shakes fist

[–]sophandros [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Gore lost Gore the election by carrying neither his nor Clinton's home states. If he wins either of those, Florida is a moot point.

[–]Gordyman[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

I agree. Which is probably what's going to happen, the Republicans are going to be split and Hilary (assuming she gets nominated) is going to take it.

[–]GammaTainted 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

I feel like this is going to go the same way 2012. An endless circus of rotating Republican front runners through the primary season will give way to the perennial second place "most tolerable" candidate, who eventually receives the nomination. It'll be Jeb Bush losing to Hillary in 2016, by like four percentage points, and it won't be interesting or surprising, but 24-hour news coverage will pretend that it is.

[–]Gordyman[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's probably how it's going to go down, but regardless of how it goes down, Hillary is going to become president. Simply because she's been promoted for years by the establishment, and that's usually how it works. But like I said before, IDGAF about this "election" and I never will. With the popularity of "Deez Nutz", I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who shares that opinion. People are disgusted with politicians at this point, and I predict a really low voter turnout.

[–]sha742 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I don't think Jeb Bush is going to make it. I think Marco Rubio is going to be huge force when people start settling toward center.

[–]oaknutjohn 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

IIRC these polls are only from likely Republican voters anyway. Most of the country is neither Republican nor likely to vote.

[–]4dams [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Fear not. It's more like 6%, not 12%. Latest polling put GOP at around 23%-24%, Dems at 24%-25%, with Independents at close to half. Trump's got at most one quarter of one quarter of the electorate - who just want to watch the world burn ... at least for now, over a year out from any actually voting.

Popcorn here, get her popcorn here...

[–]RobertoBolano [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

25% of the Republican Party isn't 12.5% of the country. The Republican Party has only 30 million members.

[–]werijoiwerp [スコア非表示]  (27子コメント)

Man a lot of the stuff in this thread is the weird hypothetical ideological side of /r/SRSDiscussion that I don't really fuck with

[–]RonJenks2 [スコア非表示]  (24子コメント)

I agree. The ultra-left is well represented here and I don't mind that, but it makes it pretty difficult to have a real discussion on the realities of American politics.

Also a pretty surprising amount of centrist posters. Which is pretty odd... Someone was saying they'd probably vote for a democrat over any of the republican candidates. Like, do you know where you are???

edit and op is throwing the word "liberal" around like a pejorative. This thread is bizarre.

[–]werijoiwerp [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

/r/SRSDiscussion debates devolve into this kind of thing pretty often for whatever reason. A while ago I read a discussion that somehow got completely focused around capitalism and African farming when that's not even what the thread was supposed to be about. And the Ferguson/Baltimore threads about what protestors should or should not be doing were very similar.

Honestly, and it sounds a bit rude to put it this way, people just come off as being very far up their own ass when they act like their pet ideology is somehow relevant to the real life consequences of things like who ends up being president.

[–]iseverythingok [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

When speaking of realistic policy implementation, some people in this sub are so incredibly naive or just sheltered in an academia bubble.

[–]werijoiwerp [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

"I'm a suburban white kid and let me tell you how to destroy capitalism so we can end racism"

[–]RonJenks2 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yep. I don't have a problem with the ultra-left. But when your biggest contribution to the debate is to try to apply anarcho-communism, marxism, or some other extreme left politically impossible principles to a country like the United States, and asserting that those who disagree with you might as well be republicans, well now you're just turning a discussion about the reality of American politics into a theoretical circle jerk and it's definitely annoying as fuck.

At any rate I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed.

[–]sha742 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Lol never mind I scrolled down what the actual fuck

[–]sha742 [スコア非表示]  (17子コメント)

I'm sort of surprised the lack of Sanders support I've seen in this thread, honestly. I back Hill-dog as a matter of being a WTO shill, but again I'm surprised at the spectrum of ideology.

I dig it, honestly. It's not divisive and it's not an echo chamber. It's like a rational quorum where the only shared belief is that people are and have systematically been dicks before.

[–]RonJenks2 [スコア非表示]  (12子コメント)

I don't know. I get the feeling a few of these communist posters don't really respect anyone who might fall to the right of their political ideology. I don't really care on a personal level but I'd say that's divisive.

Though the points of view are diverse, I'll give you that. I've definitely learned something reading through these communist vs. capitalist debates even if they are irrelevant to the OP.

And for the record I'm undecided between Sanders and Chillary, though I'm leaning towards Bernie. One way or another I think the GOP's current disarray is a win for the country.

[–]sha742 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

No I agree, I went further down into the comments and for whatever reason posted.

[–]Engelgrinder [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

I get the feeling a few of these communist posters don't really respect anyone who might fall to the right of their political ideology.

We don't respect those who "fall to the right" in the same way that feminists don't respect MRAs.

[–]RonJenks2 [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

Yeah. I get it. I'm not so far left as to be politically irrelevant in my country. And I don't equate capitalism with all of the social and economic injustices the planet endures. Which of course means I might as well be a racist, pro-life, xenophobic, reactionary men's rights activist who personally mugs homeless people in my free time.

I don't really care if you like me. I just find it hard to talk to someone with such a poor grasp of nuance.

[–]Engelgrinder [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

Which of course means I might as well be a racist

Yes. It's no coincidence that the history of capitalism is also a history of slavery, imperialism and colonialism which preys on the lives of PoC.

As was stated earlier, all of the countries that are emerging today from under the shackles of colonialism are turning toward socialism. I don’t think it’s an accident. Most of the countries that were colonial powers were capitalist countries and the last bulwark of capitalism today is America and it’s impossible for a white person today to believe in capitalism and not believe in racism. You can’t have capitalism without racism. And if you find a person without racism and you happen to get that person into conversation and they have a philosophy that makes you sure they don’t have this racism in their outlook, usually they’re socialists or their political Philosophy is socialism.

-Malcolm X, presumably a man with a good grasp of "nuance"

[–]RonJenks2 [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

That's a nice Malcolm quote. I'm glad I'm a socialist otherwise I'd be afraid you were calling me a racist for not agreeing with you.

[–]Engelgrinder [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

And I don't equate capitalism with all of the social and economic injustices the planet endures.

[...]

I'm glad I'm a socialist

Glad we sorted that out so quickly. Welcome to the fold comrade!

[–]RonJenks2 [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

You see the difference between me and you is I'm a pragmatist first and foremost. I don't find value in disqualifying potential allies for not aligning exactly with my political philosophy.

I believe in coalition building, consensus finding, and yes, actually getting shit done. It's great fun to have theoretical debates on the internet all day, but when it comes time to actually make changes in the way my country functions, I don't live in a naive fantasy bubble where my angst and sheer power of will might accidentally get republicans to stop hating poor people.

[–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The thing is SRSD is mixed with liberal's and communists. Liberals don't support Sanders because of how anti trade he is. Communists don't like him because he isn't a communist, and he's advocated for war on multiple occasions.

Sanders supporters (on reddit) tend to be the same people who supported Ron Paul and just want someone different.

[–]mrtacoswildride [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I'm against Hillary because she's a-ok with the current security state, and am crossing my fingers for Sanders (who I disagree with economically) because he's against it. Presidents can't shift economic policy much except on the margin, but they can absolutely smash the security state.

I know he's got a snowball's chance in hell, but maybe we'll all get lucky and 2017 will be a good year.

[–]sha742 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That's a good point. Honestly I don't know where I stand on the security and data issues. I honestly like the idea of a court being able to find deleted text messages/pictures if it's case-pertinent. I like the idea of drones patrolling instead of cops. The former's typically unarmed.

[–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

What do you mean by security state? If your talking foreign policy Sanders has been pretty hawkish.

[–]Engelgrinder [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Similarly, liberalism is well represented here, and I don't mind that, but it makes it pretty difficult to have a real discussion on the realities of world politics.

[–]lakelly99 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

'Destroy capitalism' is the standard SRSD answer to any problem.

Like, OK, I consider myself a socialist and an optimist so I'd love that. But holy shit sometimes you just have to work with what you've got if 95% of the world doesn't feel the same way.

[–]ModestMaoist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The "weird hypothetical ideological" stuff is what underlies entire political systems and thought, including your own - I think there's good reason to engage with it.

[–]8125 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

As a non-American, is there really any chance he gets elected? I always had impression that he is just a rich bigot who nobody takes seriously.

[–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

The problem is the American political system. In the UK he'd be in UKIP, but there can't be a US equivalent. He is getting attention because he has 12% of the country behind him (the bigot vote).

But he won't get more. But at the same time 12% is still higher than any other conservative this early in the election.

[–]rstcp 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't know where you are getting the 12% from. He's only 6% behind Clinton in head to head match ups: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/19/politics/2016-poll-hillary-clinton-joe-biden-bernie-sanders/

[–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

12% meaning that 12% actively want him as president (25% of the republicans).

Many will vote for him over voting for Clinton. This is also why I think Biden is a better candidate as he has more experience and a much lower unfavorable rating, and he seems to have the right personality for this election. But a huge amount of Republicans won't show up in a Trump vs. Clinton election because they consider it two bad options.

For the same kind of thing will happen with Sanders. Personally I strongly dislike Sanders but I think he is likely better than a Republican and would probably vote for him. But I would not be motivated to actually vote because I dislike all the Republican candidates and Sanders.

[–]lecih 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

There are people who take him seriously. I know this because people in my family have expressed support for him and they get along with their coworkers so I'm sure there are many other people who share their support for him.

[–]8125 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's sad. Even Russian media goes on about how shitty he is.

[–]Gordyman[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Most people see him as a joke but a lot of people still follow him. He has the highest approval rating of all of the GOP candidates.

[–]Othello [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Trump isn't dangerous; if anything he's a boon to the country. When you have 12% of the US following along with his hatred it makes everyone realize that these people still exist. A lot of people have been growing complacent, there are people who genuinely think racism isn't really a thing anymore for example. Well, Trump has shown that this stuff really is a big deal still.

[–]sha742 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Wasn't this the argument of preserving Coontown though? That it makes them visible and underlines some perverse micro-population?

No-- when you have a hateful icon for people to congregate under, they feel more comfortable evangelizing those ideas and the cancer spreads.

[–]Gordyman[S] [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

He appeals to those people, he represents them.

[–]werijoiwerp [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

He appeals to those people, he represents them.

People seem to like him because he's confident and he doesn't filter himself ("anti-PC"). His views are completely ridiculous, but none of the other candidates are nearly as appealing as characters, which is what a lot of people are looking for. It's a bit depressing IMO

[–]Gordyman[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

He's not politically correct to the extent that he says what his power base wants to hear. Though I agree with everything else.

[–]Edgy_Atheist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

he represents them

Not necessarily. Check out this article on the New York Times (or New York Time for Hillary as I call it sometimes), the article mentions

"In poll after poll of Republicans, Mr. Trump leads among women, despite having used terms like “fat pigs” and “disgusting animals” to denigrate some of them. He leads among evangelical Christians, despite saying he had never had a reason to ask God for forgiveness. He leads among moderates and college-educated voters, despite a populist and anti-immigrant message thought to resonate most with conservatives and less-affluent voters. He leads among the most frequent, likely voters, even though his appeal is greatest among those with little history of voting."

Did you catch that? "In poll after poll of Republicans, Mr. Trump leads among women". If you're like me, your first thought should be "What the fuck". But we need to stop pretending that Trump is some ultra-right winger. Because he isn't. While he 's indicative of some of the ugly bigotry in the GOP, to focus on that is to miss the point.

He doesn't represent the eventual culmination of conservatism, he represents the mad as hell vote within conservatives and moderates. So many people like to call him the "Frankenstein" of the GOP, as if the GOP alone created such a ghastly man through endless racist and sexist rhetoric. But that's not the case here. He represents people who have had it with politicians in general and don't wince at blaming Mexicans too. He is the GOP mirror of Bernie Sanders. And because progressive liberalism is smaller than conservatism in America, guess which guy has more traction?

The fact is, the women clearly voting for Trump don't like him because of his statements about women, they like him because he can make those statements about women. They like that he isn't bought out by anyone but himself. And they know for a fact that Trump isn't obeying any PAC or rich Koch brothers in the background because any self-respecting investor would have told Trump to stop by now.

Trump is everything ugly about America, but making him some Republican monster misses the point. We know from his past that he has supported both parties and policies all over the left and right. Only now has he rebranded himself for this clusterfuck that is the 2016 elections. American people have watched their wages stagnate for a generation while Capital Hill squabbles and the Middle East heats up even more. Trump and Sanders are the answers, one which I think we can all agree is a far more reasonable and practical answer at that.

[–]foxh8er 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

I really don't think hes dangerous. His supporters are though.

He is not going to get close to winning the primary, on the off chance he does it'll be excellent for the progressive candidate. I'm just along for the sideshow.

I'm actually legitimately afraid of walker.

[–]Gordyman[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

What he represents is very dangerous, however.

[–]foxh8er 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Xenophobia and nationalism? I guess. I'd still wager his so-called "silent majority" is more dangerous than he is though.

With that being said I would love him to get the nomination.

[–]Cilpot [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Watching this from Europe it seems like Trump is the first real taste americans get of the "wacky" far right. Many countries here have these parties of ultra reactionary right wingers, and the american two-party system seems to have prevented them having influence over there.

[–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That's exactly it. The two party system robs the extremes of both parties from getting a voice or organization. This can be a good thing because it doesn't allow these opinions to be normalized.

[–]xXxLinkinPark420xXx 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

In all honestly, I'm more terrified of Rubio, Cruz, Walker, and Huckabee. Trump will hurt America and minorities; the others will wipe out America and minorities.

[–]Dan-Morris [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

How would the others be worse than Trump? What do they want to do that he doesn't?

[–]sha742 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Rubio ain't nearly as bad as the open gay-bashers.

[–]ghriari [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

I'm more scared of the rest of the Republican Party and Bernie Sanders than Trump. Trump's talking points are racist and xenophobic. But the others have done more to actively support racist policies.

(Also, I mean it about Bernie Sanders. His policies on legal immigration and free trade would increase global poverty and make America more homogeneous. I know he wants America to be like Scandinavia, but can we get rid of the xenophobia?)

[–]Gordyman[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Though I don't like social democracy, I think Bernie Sanders is the closest thing the Democrats have to a true progressive. If I actually voted, I would probably vote for him.

[–]ghriari [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'm the son of Indian immigrants who came over on a work visa, so his immigration policies and race-blindness terrify me personally.

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9048401/bernie-sanders-open-borders

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/27/8671135/bernie-sanders-race

[–]scarymonsters85 [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

I believe all of the candidates beliefs on free trade will increase global poverty. Wrt Sanders on immigration, I've only heard him be against certain work visas because of how employers are able to hold those workers hostage bc the workers want to be in this country and the employers use that as leverage to overwork them and treat them as slaves.

[–]sha742 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

How do you figure? Most economists agree that free trade reduces global poverty. It's hard to find opposing literature.

[–]ghriari [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

That's still preferable for the workers to not having the opportunity to be here at all. I have a relative who is here on a guest worker visa, and he gets paid less than his citizen coworkers for a job that requires a PhD. But it's still a life that is orders of magnitude better than what he would have in his country of birth, and once he's eligible to become a citizen, he has the potential to make more money. Why should your life be determined in full by the circumstances of your birth?

The 1990s were the decade of free trade, and the growth experienced by countries around the world shows that opening our economy and immigration up to poorer nations is one of the best ways to bring the global poor out of poverty.

[–]scarymonsters85 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I appreciate that in your family's circumstance it has worked out. Unfortunately, other folks haven't been so successful. Exploitation is still prevalent despite if you're paid more than you would in your home country. These visas are rarely paths toward citizenship, it's indentured servitude and businesses have no issue exploiting this. For the same reason we don't allow a market for organs, we mustn't allow unabated temp work visas without a framework in place to address these inequalities.

[–]ghriari [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Even the poor in America have it better than the rich in the countries these people are coming from.

http://b-i.forbesimg.com/timworstall/files/2013/06/inequality.png

And if you stay in America long enough on a legal visa, a path to citizenship opens up, which also opens up other opportunities with regard to employment.

[–]scarymonsters85 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Furthermore, Clinton's track record on civil rights and race is much further to the right than Sanders'. Sanders has atleast addressed those criticisms and made adjustments to his platform. That free trade is good and caused global prosperity in 90's needs a citation. Many believe that NAFTA has increased global inequality and severely harmed Latin American countries.

[–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Many might believe that but that doesn't make it true. Free trade is undeniably good, especially for the poor of the weaker country. They are able to get more complex goods that they couldn't produce themselves, while creating simple goods to sell to the rich country. This increases employment and wealth of the poorer country.

You have to ask yourself, why is it that the far right is against free trade as well? The reason is because it is a populist issue. The slogan of "They took our jobs" is an easy to digest one, and everyone knows somebody who lost a job due to outsourcing. But it is still a false ideology. Because far more people gained jobs due to free trade.

[–]scarymonsters85 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

One last point I forgot to make (I'm sorry for not being as concise as id like to). You mentioned your relative making less than his equally credentialed peers. Open borders and/or no restrictions on work visas will have the effect of bringing down wages for everyone. The end result is having a modern slave economy (workers on visas are less likely to call out problems with supervisors, etc). I can understand how having more stringent qualifications on work visas and immigration may impact impoverished people from other countries those immigrants are not voters and they are ignoring their own structural problems in their home countries. Without a strong safety net to help those soon-to-be low income/poverty stricken folks in America, then this does nothing to solve the problems we face today.

[–]ghriari [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Poor people in America still have it better than relatively wealthy people in the countries these people are coming from.

http://b-i.forbesimg.com/timworstall/files/2013/06/inequality.png

Throughout my life, I've been to countries that are or were much poorer than the United States. Many of the people who live in these countries that are plagued by poor infrastructure and violence would really be able to use the chance to be poor in America as an opportunity. There's a difference between being extremely in debt because of health insurance costs and literally dying of cholera because restaurants aren't boiling the tapwater they use for cooking.

One thing that really bothers me about arguments about immigration on reddit are when people say that people who live in third world countries should fix the problems in their countries first. In many of these places, people who even try to do this are killed (look at the teaching college students in Mexico, dissidents in Russia, people like Malala Yousafzai in Pakistan). These countries aren't even places where emigrants would qualify for refugee status, but the burden of fixing them cannot be placed on individual citizens the way redditors want it to be. If trying to fix your country's structural problems could get you and your family killed, would you honestly try that over emigrating?

Another point is that 40% of companies in Silicon Valley are established by immigrants in America on guest worker visas. They are actively creating jobs that would not otherwise exist, and are not taking jobs from equally qualified citizens who had the blind luck to be born in America.

[–]Sir_Marcus [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I don't think Trump is dangerous in the sense that there is any danger of him becoming president. He is all but unelectable. Every liberal in America thinks he's a joke. Moderate conservatives are terrified of him because he represents the influence of hardline ultra-conservatives in their party that has been slowly growing for the past 35 years.

I think he is dangerous more in the sense that he has given a very loud voice to most bigoted people in this country. He's galvanized the worst elements of society and the effects that might have on American political discourse could be catastrophic.

[–]barbadosslim -5ポイント-4ポイント  (65子コメント)

It seems like the difference between him and Clinton is rhetoric.

[–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 26ポイント27ポイント  (64子コメント)

Don't be silly.

I see this kind of thing all the time on Reddit and it is just such a stupid opinion.

On Social Issues Trump wants to deport all illegal Mexicans and put in place idiotic sanctions on Mexico. Trump has stated that he is pro life and would support anti abortion laws. He wants to get rid of the Common Core and cut education funding significantly. And he considers Climate change a joke. He is also against gun control

Clinton has stated that she would support a pathway to citizenship for illegals. She is pro choice and would fund Planned Parenthood and punish state anti abortion laws. She has raised education funding and supported Common Core. She also considers Climate change to be a serious issue. She has supported as much Gun control that has a chance of making it through congress.

On the Economy Trump has said that he wants the corporation tax a 0%. He is anti free trade and wants to impose tarriffs and other protectionist policies. He also focuses on National Debt which is not really an issue but more of a fear tactic.

Clinton likely will support corporate tax reform to raise the real corporate tax while lowering the stated corporate tax (simplify it and get rid of loopholes). She is very pro free trade, while saying we need to compensate for the loss of jobs.

[–]mrtacoswildride [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

From an economic perspective, 0% corporate tax or income tax (or even both) are a good idea, but should be paired with high sales and property taxes. Encourages earning and investment, discourages consumption. A wealth tax and inheritance tax would also figure in.

Of course all of that is politically impossible.

[–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I wouldn't do 0% corporate tax, but 25% and get rid of all the subsidies and loopholes.

And I don't think it would be impossible with a democratic president that pushes for it, because republicans probably would accept it and enough dems will follow their president.

[–]Gordyman[S] -5ポイント-4ポイント  (50子コメント)

Both Hillary and Trump are elitist, corporate shills. Though they have slight differences in their views, they both support the expansion of the state and capitalism.

[–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 15ポイント16ポイント  (39子コメント)

Jesus, when did this thread turn into /r/conspiracy?

Yes, they are both capitalists, if they weren't then they wouldn't be representing the vast majority of Americans. Trump doesn't actually take much money from corporations and is self funding his campaign.

I just explained how their views are extremely divergent, at least on almost everything that Americans are divergent about. Just because they don't agree with your extremist views doesn't make them the same. And your views are extremist. We live in a democracy where the majority view will be the one the government takes on. The areas were we debate is where the vast majority do not agree.

You sound like the people who claim that all the candidates are the same because they don't think 9/11 was an inside job.

[–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]Gordyman[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    This is getting off topic, so I leave you with the last word. Sorry I even made that statement.

    [–]sha742 [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

    Capitalism is such a strange term to hear discussed on the Internet. In a growingly global and decentralizing economy, the academic definition almost fades away entirely.

    Is capitalism a market-based economy with minimal controls and then a socialist economy is market-based but with more controls at the national level?

    The anti-capitalism crowd seems to have the same validity but even less voice than the anti-gmo and anti-vaxxers, so I'm always curious what the independent opinion is.

    [–]Engelgrinder [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

    Is capitalism a market-based economy with minimal controls and then a socialist economy is market-based but with more controls at the national level?

    Hahaha, what in the world are they teaching in schools these days?

    If you're serious start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGT-hygPqUM&index=1&list=PL3F695D99C91FC6F7

    [–]sha742 [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

    Nah, you can explain your argument yourself. I believe in you.

    [–]Engelgrinder [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

    This is a complex issue, there's no reason for me to re-write anti-capitalist arguments which have already been stated more eloquently elsewhere. If you're "curious" then you should not be afraid of watching some youtube videos. If you have any questions about the youtube playlist I linked, feel free to ask me.

    [–]sha742 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    I'm curious what the laymen's definition of capitalism and socialism is. That's why I'm asking for your opinion, which doesn't seem to be tainted by academia or critical thought.

    [–]nuclearseraph [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    The fundamental principles of capitalism and socialism are not about markets or state regulation.

    Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned. Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are owned by the workers or the communities that do the labor.

    It's possible for a capitalist economy to operate within a welfare state that provides safety nets for the working class, or to have subsidies to ensure stability in the production of essential goods and services. On the flip side, it's possible for a socialist economy to have markets or decentralized planning. The foundations of these systems are primarily about the relations of production, not the allocation of resources.

    If you asked laypeople to define capitalism and socialism you probably wouldn't find much of a consensus at all because both terms have been greatly distorted for ideologically motivated political gains.

    [–]Engelgrinder [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    It's roughly the same as is expressed in that video - which is why I'm asking that you watch it.

    which doesn't seem to be tainted by academia or critical thought.

    Are you implying that Marxism, and anti-capitalism more broadly, are not critical? That these strains of theory are not at all represented in academia?

    [–]barbadosslim -5ポイント-4ポイント  (4子コメント)

    I don't understand your free trade point, but in any case all of those issues take a back seat to our killing of people abroad. Clinton has supported killing hundreds of thousands of people in the past, and I don't believe she has changed.

    [–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

    So you don't agree with them on that singular point. That still doesn't make them the same. If that is all you care about than vote for Rand Paul. Sander's has been hawkish as well.

    What you have to understand is that most Americans are hawkish in their views. So most of the candidates will be as well.

    Most candidates are also against communism in the US, that doesn't make them the same.

    And my point on free trade is that they are very different. Trump is very anti Free Trade while Hillary is very pro free trade. You said they were the same and I was demonstrating they are not.

    [–]barbadosslim -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    It can make them the same, if an issue outweighs all others.

    [–]CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

    No. That is stupid. Just because something matters the most to you doesn't mean they are the same.

    [–]SisterRayVU -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    They're both pretty scummy capitalists, dude.