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2015 Hugo Winners (locusmag.com)

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[–]undo-undo-undo 57ポイント58ポイント  (11子コメント)

No Award had a big evening!

[–]unconundrum[S] 23ポイント24ポイント  (1子コメント)

Apparently, No Award had only won five times in the history of the award, and tonight's awards matched that.

[–]DjangoWexlerAMA Author Django Wexler 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Color me unsurprised...

[–]KristaDBallAMA Author Krista D. Ball 25ポイント26ポイント  (3子コメント)

I did like how people kept calling it "Noah Ward" on Twitter :)

[–]shadowsong42 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not only that, but David Gerrold (the emcee this year) has published some stuff under the pen name of Noah Ward.

[–]wardsalud 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Noah Ward sounds like an excellent author name. Very authory.

[–]KristaDBallAMA Author Krista D. Ball 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's excellent.

[–]Ankari 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Why were there so many No Awards?

[–]gailosaurus 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Here's a link, or you could google "Sad Puppies" (not joking) to read more.

http://www.npr.org/2015/08/22/432881261/everyones-likely-to-be-sad-at-this-years-hugos?utm_source=facebook.com&amputm_medium=social&amputm_campaign=npr&amputm_term=nprnews&amputm_content=20150822#commentBlock

[–]Ankari 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for the link. Now I'm interested in how they plan to adjust their voting structure.

[–]ChickenOverlord 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

The coalition argues that conservative, straight, white (and mostly male) writers are being shut out by "affirmative action" voting. So for three years running, they've mounted a campaign to take over the Hugos and fill the ballot with their preferred brand of nominees.

A slate that includes a bunch of women, gays, and minorities was how they sought to keep sci-fi and fantasy exclusive to white men? How does that work exactly?

[–]gailosaurus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't pretend to know the mind of crazy people, but I think if you compare their slate to likely nominees in absence of it, you'll find it dominated by the straight-white-male comparatively. As I understand it, there's also some kind of "politics" thinking behind it as well, whatever that means.

[–]Hypercles 16ポイント17ポイント  (3子コメント)

http://www.thehugoawards.org/content/pdf/2015HugoStatistics.pdf

This years statistics for anyone who wants them.

[–]Lanodantheon 20ポイント21ポイント  (2子コメント)

Reading the pdf....The Slow Regards of Silent Things was 22 Votes short of getting on the Ballet. Now I'm sad...

Looking at the numbers... The Slates knocked off a lot of good works in the nomination phase. Most by a wide margin(like over 100 votes), some by smaller margins.

[–]Hypercles 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is sad. It so deserved to win a Hugo, it was brilliant.

Edit: I also see Jackalope Wives missed out for best short story (by about 60 votes), which is also a shame as that was a fantastic short.

[–]KristaDBallAMA Author Krista D. Ball 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know, right? Only 22 votes. Geez. That was close. :(

[–]unconundrum[S] 25ポイント26ポイント  (5子コメント)

Also, as some folk on twitter are saying, kudos on Marko Kloos, who withdrew his slate-nomination for Lines of Departure and let The Three-Body Problem onto the ballot.

[–]ydeliane 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

What was his reasoning for doing so?

[–]deathtotheemperor 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

“It has come to my attention that Lines of Departure was one of the nomination suggestions in Vox Day’s ‘Rabid Puppies’ campaign. I cannot in good conscience accept an award nomination that I feel I may not have earned solely with the quality of the nominated work. I also wish to disassociate myself from the originator of the ‘Rabid Puppies’ campaign. To put it bluntly: if this nomination gives even the appearance that Vox Day or anyone else had a hand in giving it to me because of my perceived political leanings, I don’t want it. I want to be nominated for awards because of the work, not because of the ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ politics.”

From his blog

[–]Jota-Pe 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is the biggest travesty of what the puppies did to me. They usurped others works for a cause and robbed them of the chance to actual win the award legitimately, which is ironic because from what I understand that is one of the things their cause was trying to prevent albeit with the skew this was excluding fun fantasy and scifi from winning in the name of social justice.

[–]ydeliane 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ahh okay thanks, I had no idea it was related to the puppies thing.

[–]Eko_Mister 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

He's the real MVP.

[–]DjangoWexlerAMA Author Django Wexler 26ポイント27ポイント  (22子コメント)

This is ... about as good as could be hoped for? I still think City of Stairs was robbed though.

[–]devotedpupa 16ポイント17ポイント  (4子コメント)

Ñeeeee I would've preferred if Guardians of the Galaxy didn't win. Winter Soldier was better and both were more superheroe than sci-fi/fantasy when compared to Interstellar or Edge of Tomorrow, even if they are arguably better.

[–]DjangoWexlerAMA Author Django Wexler 21ポイント22ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah that's definitely a matter of personal taste. I voted for Edge of Tomorrow, but GoG was good, I'm not sad to see it win.

[–]devotedpupa 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm more surprised than sad. Thoroughly enjoyable movie, just not award darling material.

[–]DjangoWexlerAMA Author Django Wexler 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

The Hugo Dramatic Long Form is usually quite populist -- almost always big-budget blockbuster-type stuff rather than the kind of thing that wins movie awards.

Like the last few were Gravity, Inception, GoT Season 1, and Avengers.

[–]klyberess 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I thought Gravity won a ton of awards.

[–]7Pedazos 10ポイント11ポイント  (11子コメント)

Absolutely. I read that shortly after the nominations, and my first thought was, if not for the slate voting, this would be nominated.

[–]DjangoWexlerAMA Author Django Wexler 9ポイント10ポイント  (6子コメント)

We'll see when the nomination totals are released, but I suspect that may be literally true.

[–]jeremyteg 11ポイント12ポイント  (4子コメント)

They've been released, and at least according to Tobias Bucknell's analysis it would have been. http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/2015/08/23/what-the-alternate-hugo-ballot-would-likely-have-been/

[–]DjangoWexlerAMA Author Django Wexler 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah. The Martian would also have been a strong contender for the award.

[–]Hypercles 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Martian would have been disqualified, as it had previously been self published back in 2011.

[–]relentlessreadingWorldbuilders 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the Martian would have been disqualified due to previous publication. Shame about City of Stairs.

[–]jeremyteg 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

For sure, not that The Three Body Problem wasn't deserving.

[–]Gamethyme 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

City of Stairs is the fourth one below the "On the Ballot" line.

Page 18 of this PDF.

[–]devotedpupa 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Would "The Martian" have been allowed to get in?

[–]Hypercles 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It might have had the nominations, but it would have been disqualified as it was first self published in 2011.

[–]7Pedazos 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Looks like "The Martian" received 6.9% of the nominations and was tenth highest nominated.

So it likely would have been one of the final five, but it would have been close.

[–]jeremyteg 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Quite possibly, as least according to Tobias Bucknell's analysis: http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/2015/08/23/what-the-alternate-hugo-ballot-would-likely-have-been/

[–]eean 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yea if we just remove the Puppy nominations it would've been on the ballot, albeit in fifth place.

Of course Three Body Problem won and it was in seventh place in the nominations!

Regardless remember that Hugo is a scifi award that occasionally rewards fantasy. I think Three Body Problem winning 2649 v 2449 over Goblin Emperor is a good example. It's close, Goblin Emperor certainly could've won, but it didn't.

[–]Hypercles 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yea if we just remove the Puppy nominations it would've been on the ballot, albeit in fifth place.

No it would have been third. Scalzis Lock In, would have been 4th on the ballot and Bennett's City of Stairs would have been 5th.

[–]MattieShoes 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

SON OF A BITCH! I've been trying to remember the name of that book for a week now. I could remember the entire plot, but only in generalities so I couldn't turn up anything with google. I even wrote a whole TOMT post, then deleted it because it felt like endless spoilers.

Thanks :-)

[–]unconundrum[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree, and love Bennett's books. Thrilled it's nominated for World Fantasy, though I'm suspecting VanderMeer's got that one.

[–]DjangoWexlerAMA Author Django Wexler 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You may be right; in fairness, I still need to read those. But CoS blew me away.

[–]photonlongsword 18ポイント19ポイント  (4子コメント)

So happy that Three Body Problem won. Not my favourite book this year, but it is definitely encouraging that a translation won best novel. Hopefully this encourages more publishers to bring non-English work to the fore.

[–]csuzw 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

I agree that it's encouraging to see a non-English work win, however, I honestly thought it was 1 of the worst books I read this year. I'm at a loss to see what people see in it other than the fact it's non-English. It starts off decently but it declines into nonsense science and absurdly unrealistic behaviour and dialogue on every characters parts.

[–]EltaninAntenna 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

nonsense science and absurdly unrealistic behaviour and dialogue

To be fair, this isn't an obstacle to success by most SF...

[–]photonlongsword 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

As I said, it wasn't my favourite work this year either. However, it clearly got enough people excited for them to want to vote for it. I wouldn't put it down to the book being of non-English origin.

[–]gmrm4n 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I read an article about the Three-Body trilogy and other Chinese Sci-Fi in an old Wired magazine. Are they any good? Where can I find translations of them?

[–]Lanodantheon 14ポイント15ポイント  (53子コメント)

My personal take on the awards this year(I watched the Live Stream):

Great ceremony.

Only one Puppy-related win: Guardians of The Galaxy.

But that movie was really really REALLY good so, meh...

The Award for most annoying presenter (for some people on my twitter feed) went to Dalek Rainier. Some people don't like fanmade Daleks I guess...

The Award for Best Presenter and Most Epic Presentation of an Award went to the Astronaut from the ISS giving Best Hugo to the Three Body Problem which was ten kinds of awesome. I'll need to read that book now...

Top Winner of the Night was No Award. He/She had a speech prepared, unfortunately it consisted entirely of foul language, rude gestures, obscene signage and was covered up by a lot of applause and some booing.

[–]SecondaryHammerSmith 6ポイント7ポイント  (10子コメント)

Guardians of the Galaxy is puppy related ? It seems odd for them to signal out one that had such a good chance of winning.

[–]Lanodantheon 4ポイント5ポイント  (9子コメント)

It was on the Sad Puppies slate. I'm not sure about the Rabids. Otherwise the night followed this guide to a T: http://deirdre.net/the-puppy-free-hugo-award-voters-guide/

[–]SecondaryHammerSmith 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

Do you know their reasoning for claiming the movie as their own ? It just seems like such an odd choice.

[–]Hypercles 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

They liked it and nominated it. The dramatic presentation categories were just about them nominating what they liked. But after looking at the stats, it looks like it would have made the Hugos regardless of puppy votes.

[–]eean 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yea 'no award' didn't rank at all for both dramatic presentation categories.

[–]mallamp_ 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's non-leftist space opera, I guess that's reason enough

[–]EltaninAntenna -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

Since it was probably going to win anyway, they score a "free" win.

[–]relentlessreadingWorldbuilders 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

It gave them ammo when some of the question qualified editors on their slates didn't win.

[–]Koppenberg 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

It also gives them human shields against criticism of their attitudes. By choosing nominees with huge fan bases, they get to say "Are you calling Guardians of the Galaxy and Marvel bigoted? <faux outrage>"

I half suspect the Butcher nomination was an attempt to goad their critics into insulting the Butcher/Dresden fan base. Thankfully, Butcher's fans (like Annie Ballet) didn't like being cast in the roll of the ball in someone else's game.

[–]relentlessreadingWorldbuilders 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Annie Bellet and Kary English seemed to be on there to deflect the White-male arguments as well.

[–]Koppenberg -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

One of the big outcomes of all this for me is that I'm now a huge Annie Bellet fan. I can totes see why the Puppies chose Goodnight, Stars as a beard. It's about a Latina college student who rebels against her parents with Conservative politics and uses a handgun as a personal protection weapon to protect her soldier boyfriend and herself.

It's also a damn good story. I would have voted it above No Award on merit if she'd stayed on the ballet, but she withdrew with wit and grace. So, as a consolation prize, I've bought a stack of her books and have been enjoying.

(It's also worth noting that Goodnight, Moon is an even better story than Goodnight, Stars and that John Joseph Adams is the short-form editor who put out the anthologies that both were published in. Adams was the first short-form editor to miss the ballot after the puppies slate. It's a travesty.

[–]devotedpupa 5ポイント6ポイント  (11子コメント)

So sad many authors now have that ugly spectrum above them. I like Skin Game even if assholes did too. Hope this newspaper roll up slap make the puppies behave.

[–]Hypercles 4ポイント5ポイント  (8子コメント)

I think the only authors with the ugly spectrum above them, will be those who actually got involved in the drama. I can't see most (there will always be people who are willing to do anything) people holding it against say Butcher.

Others like Wright, Antonelli and Kratman, I think will have being a puppy stuck to their reputation for good or bad from now on.

[–]Tekomandor 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Kratman had a reputation to tarnish?

[–]eean 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

it casts something of a shadow that they didn't turn down the nomination like Kloos did.

[–]Hypercles 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

I mean I kinda agree. I think it was cool of Kloss to turn down his nomination. But you can't really blame someone for not wanting to turn down a nomination for an award, particularly a Hugo.

Especially when they stayed out of the drama. I mean I have gone out and read Kloss lines of departure (and rather enjoyed it) because of what he did. But at the same time the only authors I will actively avoid after this puppy drama, are those who got involved in the drama.

I don't think this is a great loss as authors like Wright are not that great, if his short fiction is anything to go by. Nor is it that big of a loss to the puppy authors as I somehow don't think that I am their target audience.

And Antonelli is the only one I think will have issue finding people to publish his stories in the future. And that all comes down to him publishing a email (with contact ingo) by a publisher rejecting a work of his, after he sent a letter to the police about David Gerrold being 'violently insane'. It doesn't help him either that it all ended up with said publisher receiving death threats over their decision.

[–]eean 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yea for sure there won't be any shunning, outside of the authors you mention. I went to Kevin J. Anderson's reading at WorldCon, it was fine, and I'm sure he will be welcome in the future as well.

Maybe less GoHers etc until people forget this happened. Which hopefully won't be long. :)

[–]Hypercles -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

I went to Kevin J. Anderson's reading at WorldCon

Lucky. I wish I had been able to attend worldcon this year (or any year). But living in New Zealand makes these things hard to do.

[–]eean 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Middle Earth 2020 has been promised for years now. Do not disappoint us.

[–]Hypercles 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That would be the best thing ever. Even if Australia could get a worldcon. 2020 also gives me enough time to finish the book i'm writing so I could attend as both fan and writer.

It was cool to hear that Helsinki won its bid.

[–]Temptime19 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I just read Monster Hunters International and I really liked it, but then I realized who the author was and don't plan on reading any more of it.

[–]Lanodantheon 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

It won't. The puppies declared victory under all conditions months ago.

If the no award swept the ballet, they win. If their picks win, they win.

Anything in between is still a win to them or so I have read and personally hypothesize.

The Puppies will continue to cry foul and do the same crap until they just do the American thing and....make their own award for goodness sake. That is their best option truth-be-told. They could call it the "Puppy Award." or "Trufan supercoolawesomeness Award" I don't care. I'd probably vote on it too.

Note: I also liked Skin Game...but it wasn't Award worthy. It didn't break any new ground. It didn't take chances. It was not better than anything else on the market. It was a "regularly scheduled episode of The Dresden Files." Comparatively speaking it was just an okay episode of the Dresden Files. Which I will still happily read and play the RPG of same like I have played for for the past 5 years.

In fact, I'll even go as far as to say that Skin Game was a let down for this Dresden fan. Spoilers: Spoiler

I seriously doubt Jim was like some behind-the-scenes Puppy mastermind, but even if he was I'd probably still read his books because he's built up a lot of Fan Good Will.

Dresden won't win a Hugo until the Apocalyptic Trilogy.

...or a "Musical Episode" complete with sheet music. I'd vote for that one.

[–]Fistocracy 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah as far as they're concerned, this year's result has "proved" that the big scary left wing conspiracy was real all along and that it's not just a bad dream conjured up by Theodore Beale having too much spicy food before bedtime one night.

[–]bazhip 1ポイント2ポイント  (29子コメント)

I haven't been following this. What do you mean by Puppy?

[–]Hypercles 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

A group (of mostly conservative authors) created a slate for their followers to vote for. They called themselves the sad puppies.

They basically are of the opinion that affirmative action and message are the only reason anything wins in the Hugos anymore.

Because they were organised the managed to get almost everything on their slate into the Hugo ballot. Thats why no award won a few categories this year. People decided they would not support an organised campaign for the Hugos. So categories they swept went to no award.

[–]unconundrum[S] 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

There were two sorta-overlapping slates run this year. Slates aren't technically against the rules, but no one's really done them before. Slate-voting is getting a number of people to all vote the exact same way.

One of these called itself the Sad Puppies, and it suggested that 'fun' science fiction isn't allowed anymore, only academic, elitist, and progressive science fiction. (This is pretty easily disproved by looking at the recent Hugo wins, but whatever.)

The other puppy group were the rabid puppies, who are led by Vox Day, aka Theodore Beale, aka the only guy to get kicked out of the Science Fiction Writers of America for being extremely racist in their public feed.

Oddly enough, Brad Torgersen, one of the two Sad Puppy leaders, and Vox Day were constant commenters on John Scalzi's blog years ago, and now both hate him and blame basically everything on him.

[–]devotedpupa 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Oddly enough, Brad Torgersen, one of the two Sad Puppy leaders, and Vox Day were constant commenters on John Scalzi's blog years ago, and now both hate him and blame basically everything on him.

Uuuuuh I didn't know this. Do you have more? I need more popcorn.

[–]unconundrum[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Eh, for a lot of it you'd need to read the comments from posts that are probably at least four years old.

Here's Vox Day getting a Big Idea piece on Scalzi's blog though:

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2008/04/08/the-big-idea-vox-day/

[–]relentlessreadingWorldbuilders 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

There was also some flap on a blog in 2006 or so (Making Light, maybe?) where Scalzi was passionately defending VD.

[–]Hypercles 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yea people were not happy that Day was on the jury for the Nebular awards. And Scalzi defended his right to be on the jury as he was a SFWA member.

But then Scalzi was in president when the SFWA kicked Day out for using their twitter feed to tweet a racist attack against another author. I get the feeling that Day blames Scalzi.

[–]chonggo 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

It's kind of weird, because nearly all of their complaints don't make much sense. They seem to be a bunch of angry people looking for an excuse to be angry, and cherry-picking examples to indulge their rage.

[–]Hypercles 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

cherry-picking examples to indulge their rage

And that even that many. The only works they ever named as examples of what was wrong with the Hugos was, the short story 'If you were a dinosaur my love', Scalzi's Redshirts and Ancillary Justice.

[–]chonggo 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Good point. And a lot of their rage seems to be directed at bloggers who seem to be opposed to their opinions.

[–]Hypercles 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Particularly Scalzi. They really hate him. I think personally its the biggest thing that shot the puppies in the foot. If they had talked about works they did not like and explained how their tastes were different from worldcons. They might have been more welcomed.

[–]chonggo 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

That I don't get. Personally, I really don't care for care his books, or literary SF(not really the same), but so what? Lots of other people enjoy it and there's plenty of other stuff that suits me. Why bother getting excited because there's a book you don't like?

[–]Hypercles 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh yea, it has nothing to do with his books. It's all down to his blog and him being president of the SFWA when Vox Day was removed (for using the offical twitter to tweet racist comments at a fellow author).

Almost every mention of redshirts boils down to 'Scalzi wrote it, has to be shit'.

Yea I mean i'm not going to out of my way to read John C Wright, as I think he says horrible things and I don't enjoy the stuff he writes. But at the same time i'm not going to use the fact that people like what he writes to make an argument about genre fiction. Its just stupid, people have different tastes.

[–]blalien -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

https://www.opendemocracy.net/transformation/miles-schneiderman/sad-puppies-rabid-chauvinists-will-raging-white-guys-succeed-in-hi

[–]TheManWithNoHair 23ポイント24ポイント  (13子コメント)

Hugo has turned into such a shitshow and it's not just the puppies, but every single one of these little Hugo cliques that are all about turning things into a brawl rather than working with people. You guys are kidding yourselves if you think the Puppies aren't going to double down next year.

Maybe you can't talk with someone like Vox Day and his fandom. Everything I've seen from the Brad Torgerson and Larry Correia side of things however suggests that working/talking with them rather than going on the offensive might actually work out. I'm really fed up with staunch ideologues from all sides and I know I should just stop paying attention. To me, no awarding doesn't seem any more gracious than dominating the nomination slate, you are both keeping your declared 'enemies' from having any chance at an award.

[–]DjangoWexlerAMA Author Django Wexler 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't disagree that the Puppies are going to double down. The thing is, it's pretty clear that Vox's fandom is the core of the puppy thing -- going by the stats, they account for 200-250 votes, most of the 300 that is the puppy high water mark.

To me, the difference is that with the puppy nominations, a minority triumphed over a majority, whereas the No Award wins are the other way around. In the Novella category, for example, Puppy votes account for ~300 people out of ~1000 voting, yet they took all five slots on the ballot. In the final vote, OTOH, "No Award" got ~3500 of ~5400 votes, easily more than half the total. So while it may not be more gracious, the final No Award is more indicative of the will of the voters.

What really needs to happen is the nomination rules need to change. The final vote uses an instant runoff system, but the nomination is simple totals and vulnerable to manipulation.

[–]Hypercles 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

The final vote uses an instant runoff system, but the nomination is simple totals and vulnerable to manipulation.

That is up for debate tomorrow during the business meeting. I think it has a good chance at passing. But it won't come into effect till Helsinki (if it gets ratified next year as well).

[–]TheManWithNoHair 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I see what you're saying about the numbers, they all just really seem like a drop in the bucket to me. I've never been a Hugo target myself and if the fandom groups I identified with showed up at worldcon... kindle authors would be winning left and right. I just don't see the situation getting any better by No Awarding, and I don't think it's something to celebrate. I guess if worldcon ostracizes more and more fandoms just to spite the puppies, then that might bring up attendance as more people gather to defend what they love. Certainly won't make things any more civilized though.

[–]stephencrawford 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Will be interesting to see how the future nomination process plays out. I'm sure WorldCon has had many months to come up with a solid solution. Hopefully this makes the awards even better in the future. Would be nice to see strong nominations along with strong final votes with zero "No Awards" next year.

[–]shhhhquiet 3ポイント4ポイント  (8子コメント)

Why do they deserve to be 'talked to' and 'worked with' any more than the creators of the award-worthy works they crowded off he ballot? Why should people vote for drek just because there's nothing but drek to vote for?

If they want more of their brand of genre fiction nominated, they should be encouraging people who like what they like to sign up and vote for what they enjoyed, not exploiting the process with a slate of mostly not-very-good nominees.

[–]TheManWithNoHair 7ポイント8ポイント  (7子コメント)

I actually don't agree that many of the Puppy nominations over the past few years have been any worse than previous winners. It's just fandoms, tastes and cliques that aren't normally represented at Hugo.

[–]shhhhquiet 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

The word 'clique' is so overused in this discussion as to be essentially meaningless. The puppies use it as code for 'people who enjoy fiction I don't.'

This is all about 'taste.' If the only way one 'taste' can be represented on the ballot is by slate voting, that 'taste' does not merit inclusion on the ballot. Nobody should be expected to vote for fiction they didn't like, because if people don't like a work of fiction and wouldn't re comment it to others, that fiction isn't doing it's job.

[–]Hypercles 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

But how do you define wider fandoms tastes? Should the Hugos become a who sold the most books this year award? If 50 shades has proven anything its that sales does not equal quality. Also worth noting that the best selling Scifi or fantasy book of last year was one of the books in the Divergent series. I forget exactly which one, but all three sold over a million copies each, far out selling anything else Scifi or fantasy.

If its about what people are talking about. Well then that all depends on community. For example if you look over at Goodreads and the number of reviews books get, then YA would swept the Hugos. Not even massively popular series like the Dresden files can compete with YA numbers.

And if it is just about community, then the community that is worldcon are the only people who matter. And the Hugo nominees and winners reflect what worldcon likes.

[–]TheManWithNoHair 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

So what if Vox Day shows up with a few thousand hardcore fans and outvotes everyone else? Would we be alright with them No Awarding multiple categories because Lord Day isn't on the list? Every year people are denied the author/book they REALLY wanted to vote for, do they not still vote?

I am not convinced that No Awarding isn't anything more than a lot of vindictiveness. I've seen how people have treated authors on the Sad Puppies slate even when they had nothing to do with being nominated by them in the first place. You're not denying the Puppies anything by No Awarding, you're just giving them more ammunition to work with. It's practically their victory condition.

[–]Hypercles 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

If Vox Day organises a campaign to no award. Which is what he is currently doing, because he thinks the only solution to things now is to burn down the Hugos. I am sure people will be pissed.

If he can actually do it because he has the numbers, well people will be pissed but he would be a majority.

Its not just that people could not vote for things that they wanted to, like a normal year. The no awarding was meant as sending a message that worldcon wont tolerate campaigns for the Hugos. As if that becomes an accepted and normal things the Hugos will change for the worse. Most people who I have seen say they no awarded all slate nominees, have said they would have done the same no matter who organised the slate.

Any outcomes was going to be a victory condition for them. No award means they were right all along, if they won awards it proved that what they said about the Hugos going to shit fiction was true and they have superior tastes. Theres no way tonight could have gone down with out the puppies getting more ammunition.

I mean I do agree personally with what you say about no award. I share Martins view on it, that it was not the best option. Which is why I personally only no awarded when I felt works did not deserve to win.

[–]Ralod 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why not just remove nominations totally. Make the awards 100% write in. The most popular work wins. Remove No Award totally.

There would have to be a list of works eligible of course, but if every author is competing against the others maybe there will be less of these damaging cliques formed.

[–]ChickenOverlord 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

The no awarding was meant as sending a message that worldcon wont tolerate campaigns for the Hugos.

Yet GRRM himself confirmed that campaigning has been happening for years. It seems to only be an issue now that the "wrong" sort of people are campaigning.

[–]stephencrawford 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

GRRM has many good thoughts on the situation and I enjoyed reading his commentary on the matter leading up to the Hugos. Campaigning is one thing, especially when many voters have not been exposed to an author, etc., but having "slates" to force a skew in results is something totally different. I hope that future slates continue to get smacked down.

[–]Millennium_Dodo 28ポイント29ポイント  (29子コメント)

Not gonna lie, I enjoyed seeing the puppies get shut out so completely, hopefully this sends a clear message and the same thing doesn't happen again next year. Although it's sad to see some deserving people get caught in the crossfire, so to speak. Hopefully some of the new people who voted this year will continue participating, ideally nominating and voting for the works they consider the best, instead of someone dictating their choices to them. At least that way something good would come out of all the drama this year.

Three Body Problem and Orphan Black were surprises, I expected Dr. Who or perhaps GoT to win and either Ancillary Sword or Goblin Emperor to take home Best Novel. I was rooting for Saga, Rat Queens or Sex Criminals to take the graphic story award, but I guess I should finally check out Ms. Marvel. Congratulations to all the winners!

Now I'm off to make Robert Silverberg singing Hare Krishna my new ringtone.

[–]UnsealedMTG 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

A glance at the statistics show that it was not only a rout throughout the categories, each individual category was pretty overwhelming. As in, the votes for No Award were double the total votes for all individual nominees.

[–]unconundrum[S] 15ポイント16ポイント  (7子コメント)

Ms Marvel is aimed at a pretty young audience. My seven-year old niece borrowed my copy. It's really well done, just: aimed young.

[–]devotedpupa 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

I really liked her interactions with Wolverine.

[–]gmrm4n 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The only thing I know about that comic is a) New Ms. Marvel is Muslim and b) that one page where she fangirls over Wolverine is hilarious.

[–]Millennium_Dodo 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

Thanks, I assumed it was more in line with the rest of the Marvel Universe (although I've admittedly only read one or two titles from it, so I'm far from an expert). But I also liked Lumberjanes a lot more than I expected, which I suspect is also not really aimed at me, so we'll see. It seems pretty much universally liked (even before the Hugo), so it deserves a chance.

[–]photonlongsword 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Ms. Marvel is really fun and definitely not exclusively readable to young audiences. I'd say it is one of the most thematically complex and interesting books Marvel is publishing (alongside Hawkeye.) Way better than most of the books they put it these days (I read mostly Image these days.)

[–]Millennium_Dodo 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I just ordered the first volume! The main reason I never got into the Marvel universe (DC as well), is the history and sheer size of it. As a completionist who ideally reads everything in publication order, going through several decades worth of comics is a somewhat daunting task (not to mention prohibitively expensive). I've tried some acclaimed titles here and there, but not knowing the histories of the characters or missing references tends to annoy me quickly. Also, Image has been soaking up my comics budget lately as well. From what I gather, Ms. Marvel seems to be deliberately intended to capture new readers, so we'll see how that goes.

[–]photonlongsword 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It is a great way of getting into Marvel as G Willow Wilson has really created her own microcosm within the wider comics universe. I hope you enjoy it!

[–]eean 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Her book Alif the Unseen is pretty fun I thought. It's YAish, but (as someone who doesn't really like YA) not annoyingly so.

[–]Hypercles 15ポイント16ポイント  (3子コメント)

hopefully this sends a clear message and the same thing doesn't happen again next yea

If twitter is anything to go by its not. Puppy supporters on twitter are claiming this as a win for the puppies. And Vox Day is already threatening to run a campaign to make sure No Award wins everything next year.

I was slightly sad to see Three Body Problem win, I was hoping it went to Goblin Emperor. But it helps that Three Body Problem was a fantastic read. I wonder if anyone expected Orphan Black to win, thats one that I am looking forward to seeing the stats around.

[–]DjangoWexlerAMA Author Django Wexler 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's really easy to "win" when you bet on all the numbers.

[–]Millennium_Dodo 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

They would have taken any result as a win, so that's not really unexpected. But judging from the backlash against them, the overall mood at the ceremony and the results themselves, they don't really have as much power as they think they do (I'm also curious about the exact numbers though). For better or worse, people will be more aware of the nomination process next year, so right now I'm cautiously optimistic. Partially because this is pretty much the best result I could have hoped for, partially because I refuse to believe that there are too many people who would willingly associate with people like Day and partially because it's 8:30 AM here and I'm somewhat sleep deprived.

[–]Hypercles 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

http://www.thehugoawards.org/content/pdf/2015HugoStatistics.pdf

Numbers. From a quick look puppy nominees in round one of voting make up about 1500 to 2000 votes (Between nominees). No award in the categories it won, make up about 3500 votes.

Yea I think next year nominations will go better. Day seems to be well into just No Awarding everything. And the Sad Puppies have stated they don't plan on putting a full slate, aiming for more than five nominations in categories, so people will have to pick.

Add to that the hope that more people will actually get around to nominating stuff this year.

[–]Col_Volkov 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

...hopefully this sends a clear message and the same thing doesn't happen again next year...

What clear message did it send? "It's OK when some authors with loud voices campaign for their works, but not OK if other authors do the same and better"? Because that's all I am getting out of this...

Lots of excellent authors got damaged by this. And the fact that a public vote on something like artistic criticism does not work well just got illustrated amazingly well. Hopefully the public component of the Hugos will be dropped in the future. As it stands, this year is a joke.

[–]Hypercles 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hopefully the public component of the Hugos will be dropped in the future

Why? Then how would it be any different than say the Nebula. Also if they drop it, it will stop being a fan award, which is its big thing.

[–]mossmaal 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

"It's OK when some authors with loud voices campaign for their works, but not OK if other authors do the same and better"?

That's not what happened here. They weren't campaigning for their works. They were campaigning for ideology.

This sent a clear message that the Hugo voters reject the kind of hateful anti-inclusive campaign that the puppies tried to run. It shows that the voters reject the kind of bloc voting that was going on. The voters were smart enough to pick up on that.

There's a difference between an author saying "vote for my work" and an author trying to control the entire nomination process.

[–]Col_Volkov -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's a difference between an author saying "vote for my work" and an author trying to control the entire nomination process.

No there is not. It's just different scales of campaigning. Especially for a famous author.

[–]Eko_Mister 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is what I don't understand. How is Scalzi's political agenda any more tolerable than Sad Puppies?

Why can't we have voting without propaganda from either side?

These authors, most notably Vox Day and Scalzi, are so obnoxious on their blogs and Twitter that I have vowed to never buy or recommend another one of their books. I've never even seen a Day book in person, so it's not a big deal with him, but I used to recommend Old Man's War to a lot of first-time sci fi readers.

[–]benpeek 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Interesting.

I think, from the stats, that we can argue that the SP/RP stance that they are a large, unspoken collection of people who are not being represented in the genre is not likely true. It took but three hundred votes to get a nomination, but it took two to three thousand to win, suggesting a larger element of the genre who are happy with its direction.

I'm sure there will be a lot of arguing over it, and a lot of different views put forward, but that's perhaps the most interesting take of it for me.

[–]Ralod 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't think this year is really an accurate measure. A lot of people went out of their way to vote this year, many who never would have considered doing so in the past. I love to see the numbers on first time voters this year.

This years numbers are going to be massively skewed due to the controversy. I don't think you should be drawing those conclusions from these results alone.

[–]benpeek 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you can, for exactly the controversy. This was a year where both sides of the SF culture war got up and voted and made noise. I think it's reasonable to reach the conclusion, though I am sure you can reach a more nuanced one through bringing together all the years - but as a blunt tool and as a statement, it said what it said.

(Remember, for the SP/RP side, it was meant to be a statement about taking SF back to its roots.)

[–]DavisAshura 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'll have to check out the work of this 'NO AWARD' writer. Sounds awesome, but probably not as good as my personal favorite, 'SIMULTANEOUS DISQUALIFICATION'.

[–]Ketomatic 10ポイント11ポイント  (12子コメント)

The Nuclear option won. Happy the puppies lost overall (they are so whiny) but you can't argue that these awards were all handed out (or not handed out) entirely on merit. I really think there will need to be some rule changes going forward, and I have no idea what they should be. Good luck con people!

The ustream chat was a good laugh, and for an awkward gathering of SF/F nerds, the show was pretty good! CHUCHU, Connie and the Austrian(?) fan-presenter were the standouts for sure.

[–]relentlessreadingWorldbuilders 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Connie killed! I was disappointed when she said she wasn't going to present, I was so happy to see her on stage tonight.

[–]Daemon_Targaryen 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

I've never heard of the winner for best novel :/

[–]unconundrum[S] 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's the first translated work to win best novel.

[–]Hypercles 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Its a good work of scifi. I liked Goblin Emperor more personally. But Three Body Problem was still an awesome book that's well worth the read.

Its also as unconundrum said, a work that originally was written in chinese. Its author being one of the biggest writers of Scifi in China.

[–]Jeakel 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Personally I don't pay a lot of attention to the Hugos nor much attention to the brouhala about the "Puppies"...

I vote with my wallet for the authors I like and want to read, I'm pretty sure those authors sincerely appreciate all the 'voters' like me.

[–]fiif 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Can I get a Til on puppies, I assume some super intelligent dogs aren't trying to stage a coup d'état on the awards?

[–]Hypercles 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

A group of mostly conservative authors, felt that the Hugo awards had become an award given out to books with the right message or for affirmative action reasons. They believe this has been the case going back ten, twenty years. Despite two of the authors involved Correia (who started it) and Torgersen (who ran it this year) getting nominations for the Hugo (and campbell award).

They in a move to counter this 'right message clique' created a slate and campaigned to get all the works on it nominated for the Hugo. They succeed.

This upset people who did not see an issue with the Hugos (those who run the award, nominated for it and vote for it) and upset people who did not like the campaigning for the award.

In the end there attempt to dictate who won the award failed. With worldcon telling everyone that it will not support organised campaigning for the award.

[–]fiif 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Ty for the answer.:)

[–]Fistocracy 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

For a bit of extra depth, what Hypercles described was just the Sad Puppies, who've been doing this for a couple of years now without much success.

What made this year different is that a much more outspoken author called Theodore Beale started a second group called the Rabid Puppies, and he drew on his own fanbase within the Gamergate and Neoreactionary communities to organize some bloc voting instead of just talking about it.

And where the Sad Puppies are just a bit bitter and a bit conservative, Beale is a lot bitter and a lot... well, conservative isn't really the right term. What do you call someone who thinks democracy is a mistake, black people are inferior, and womens' education should be banned because it leads to social decay? Because that's where the guy who runs the Rabid Puppies is coming from.

[–]KristaDBallAMA Author Krista D. Ball 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

But I thought it was about ethics in Hugo voting? /s

[–]the_bewildered_beast 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Saga should have won for graphic novel!

[–]stephencrawford 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Stayed up last night watching the live stream and following Twitter. It was quite enjoyable to see what happened and it couldn't have gone any better for the future of the Hugo Awards, in my opinion. Not that it is preferable to have 5 No Awards, but it shows that slates are not going to be viewed kindly, especially if the works in those slates are not considered in the league to be award-winning. Was disappointing to see those that were on edge of being nominated getting left out, but that's the luck of this year. Hopefully the large amount of No Award votes means we'll have more people nominating next year and Puppy slates will be an afterthought. Will be interesting to see if the Rabids can build enough of a following to go scorched-earth. Hard to imagine anyone wanting to dedicate the time to follow Vox Day down into his cavern of miserableness just to destroy the Hugos.

Also, I don't really think anyone should consider Guardians of the Galaxy a Puppy win. That was a movie for all of us to enjoy. Not once did I ever relate the two.

Adding "Three Body Problem" to my TBR list. Enjoyed Ken Liu's acceptance speech and humbleness. Also, Wes Chu cracked me up in his acceptance speech for the Campbell! Congrats to all! Seems like the Hugos are going to be stronger than ever now.