全 16 件のコメント

[–]TheYouth1863 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

Spanish kicked them out of their homes

Well to be fair it was kind of Spanish/Visigoth at one point before the conquest by the Umayyads, but still to the ex-Iberian pirates at least it had been their homeland too at one point (I forget for how many centuries though).

[–]alfonsoelsabio 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

but still to the ex-Iberian pirates at least it had been their homeland too at one point (I forget for how many centuries though).

Many. Lots. Seven.

The Iberian Muslims had deep roots, and had entirely supplanted Christian rulership many, many generations prior. The region's having been previously part of Christendom was part of the justification of the Reconquista, but let's not just accept that justification uncritically.

[–]Cielle 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, this gets into the question of what makes conquest/rulership of a place "legitimate", which is something I don't think has a real answer.

[–]TheYouth1863 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Many. Lots. Seven.

Wow, for some reason I was leaning towards 4-5 centuries, then again it's been a while since I've read up on the Medieval history of Spain/Iberia.

accept that justification uncritically

Fair enough, though I can't think of any reason good enough to supplant or remove anyone really :/ ....Well, unless they look different from me....have resources I need maybe....or don't have a proper flag, forfeits their land really.

[–]illstealurcandy 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

To be fair, it's not like the borders were static between those 700 years.

[–]StrangeSemiticLatinAnd then Odin said to Loki, "Effendi, want some Ayran?" 7ポイント8ポイント  (6子コメント)

Why did some Christians and even some Jews turn to piracy? Piracy largely has more to do with being a seafaring culture than it does with being a Muslim one.

This hurts me as a Maltese person. Our one true chance to be mentioned in badhistory and you don't mention us. No one remembers the Knights of St. John. :(

[–]shalomfrommo 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Didn't the Knights Hospitaller wind up signing on with France and actually engaging in piracy as well?

[–]StrangeSemiticLatinAnd then Odin said to Loki, "Effendi, want some Ayran?" 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

We continued it for a long time until Napoleon came and ruined everything with reforms about education and shit.

Also interestingly was that any non-Catholic Ottoman was a target. So that included the Greek Orthodox, even after the Church became quite angry at that. Remember Mediterranean piracy included slavery.

[–]TheYouth1863 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

I remember the Knights of Malta! They were the guys in the first campaign of AoE3 right?

[–]StrangeSemiticLatinAnd then Odin said to Loki, "Effendi, want some Ayran?" 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

....

[–]TheYouth1863 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'll show myself out....

[–]ciderczarUnrepentant Ouiaboo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've seen Final Justice! I love Goosio, friend to Maltese children everywhere!

[–]davidAOPI'm that Pirate History guy over at AskHistorians 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Barbary piracy and slavery were not all that different from European piracy and slavery

That sounds way too generalized - then again, explaining the difference probably deserves a book to properly dissect said differences. Main point: the comparison of the two probably deserves more attention and maybe some parameters set up for the comparison (since pirate history has lots of different eras that had their own distinctions).

[–]scatterstars 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some stuff about the Philippines. When this subject has come up in the past, namely blaming Muslims in the south (primarily Mindanao and Sulu) for piracy and slave raids, it's easy to pick out who has an agenda based on whether or not they acknowledge that non-Muslims and later Christians did the exact same thing within the same time periods. The only real difference is that under the Spanish, these were no longer considered raids when conducted against Muslims but military expeditions.

Now onto the Philippine-American War. As popular as it is to characterize it as Muslims versus Christians, which some in Congress at the time certainly did, that's obviously too generalized. Christian and syncretic religious sects like the Pulahanes fought American troops almost up until the Japanese invasion, though the pace of fighting diminished over time. What the author's blurb doesn't mention (and maybe the book does but I'd have to buy it first) is that the United States made treaties with several Muslim polities in the south, including the Sulu Sultanate, which it later abrogated under sketchy circumstances in order to justify an invasion. And yes, invasion is the word they would use because these tribes and groups considered themselves separate from the First Philippine Republic and even Spain, which they tried arguing with Congress but got nowhere. So saying that the conflict there was exclusively religious in nature is a gross over-simplification that overlooks sovereignty debates which the American generals at the time refused to really solve with anything but punitive campaigns into the 1920's. The author's one point that stood out as correct is that modern Islamic separatist groups like the Moro Islamic Liberation Front and Abu Sayyaf consider themselves to be fighting the same 400-year-old war against foreign invaders. However, I'd argue these problems haven't been solved yet not because those mean Muslims keep starting trouble but because the pragmatic desire to arrive at collaborative solutions had historically been overruled by the popular desire to stoke religious rivalries.

Edit: I should also mention that TR's 1902 declaration to end the war by declaring US victory and pardoning Filipino insurrectos said explicitly that it didn't apply in Moro lands, which were to be ruled ng military governors until the area was declared civilised enough for participation in the Philippine Legislature. Naturally, this and the US abrogation of the Bates Agreement didn't sit too well with the Sulu and Tausugs, who felt betrayed just like the Tagalogs had a few years previous when their revolutionary leaders were excluded from the Treaty of Paris negotiations.

[–]Dhanvantari 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Barbary piracy and slavery were not all that different from European piracy and slavery

The desertification of northern Africa must have played an important role in the development of the Barbary state's peculiar slaver/hostage economy.

[–]ciderczarUnrepentant Ouiaboo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not a pirate, but I do have Calico Jack's flag for a tattoo, so I'm pretty confident when I say there's a big reason why people might turn to slavery, even if they are Muslim.