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TwoXChromosomes

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all 167 comments
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[–]tallball 24 points25 points26 points  (4 children)
In my opinion, this article by Leah McLaren of THE GLOBE AND MAIL is the perfect example why people have become disillusioned with feminism. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/relationships/leah-mclaren-are-men-really-the-victims/article23426535/
The reason I am posting this is because I have seen many here and elsewhere express the thought that the disillusionment comes from the radfems on tumblr and the like, but I think it goes a bit further then that. This article comes from a respectable news site with professional payed journalists. In other words this is mainstream media.
Through the entire article she makes light of male victims and the need for equal resources when it comes to domestic violence. People see articles like this and it leave a bad taste in their mouths just like the radfems at tumblr and the twitter mobs. Dont believe me check out the comments at the bottom of the article. people are fed up.
The only way to reverse the trend is for the rational feminist to speak out against the troublemakers in the movement and to be honest I dont think I have seen this happen. Its seems rare if it does. Although I have seen Christina Hoff-Summers speak out against it but I dont think she is very popular among feminists at the moment.
[–]Aeiy 4 points5 points6 points  (1 child)
Thank you for linking that, I guess (but now I am fucking furious).
[–]tallball 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
Yes, it had a similar effect on me.
[–]scoobertron 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
I agree. Feminists now have an established voice in the mainstream media, and women's issues are a part of the public discussion in a way that people advocating for men's issues can only dream of. There is a tendency for feminist writers to use that voice, not only to advocate for women, but to argue that male victims of rape, domestic abuse etc. don't deserve support, or to be a part of the public discussion of rape/DV. For anyone who thinks that e.g. rape victims deserve support regardless of the configuration of their genitalia, this is a big turn-off.
[–]Tedesche 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
People see articles like this and it leave a bad taste in their mouths just like the radfems at tumblr and the twitter mobs. Dont believe me check out the comments at the bottom of the article. people are fed up.
Dem commentz! Ah, sweet, sweet hope....
[–]Aeiy 18 points19 points20 points  (0 children)
For political reasons women are now hired 2:1 over men in the field I have chose to go into.
I feel a lot of anger and have seen a lot of damage to my future prospects from people who have claimed to fight for feminism or equality. At work I do a job that females refuse to do with no consequences (escort mentally unwell patients out into the community), I of course, have no choice.
At uni, I attended all the feminist lectures: not just that, I genuinely believed it all too. That was then. Now I can look back and say I have NEVER heard a feminist talk about a issues relevant to me EVER. In all those lectures I assumed “we” included me. It doesn't.
[–]Oerath 20 points21 points22 points  (2 children)
Because the movement refuses to police it's own and has let hateful extremists become their public face. Any time it gets brought up, no one wants call them out or do anything more than say "there are lots of different ways to be a feminist" or "well I personally don't agree with that" or start yelling at me for daring to criticize the movement as a man.
That and it really is a complete clusterfuck of different ideologies all claiming the same label and trying to make themselves the only acceptable voice of social justice.
Feminism wants to redeem its name? It needs to work some shit out. Until then, I'll stick with Egalitarian and ignore the assholes that call me anti-feminist or a misogynist because of it.
[–]mayjay15 comment score below threshold-13 points-12 points-11 points  (1 child)
Which Egalitarian organizations do you donate/are involved in?
[–]Hope & a Bacon Sandwichsusandeath 12 points13 points14 points  (62 children)
Do you want to expand on your heading a bit so we can understand where you are coming from? As in what views on feminism have been changed? Who are the few? What are their actions?
[–]ZoeDaSlaya[S] comment score below threshold-6 points-5 points-4 points  (61 children)
Feminism is for the equality of women being changed to that of men so equal rights. But the select few who believe in female supremacy or those who downright ignore any male related issues.
The select few have made feminism out to be a bad thing.
[–][deleted]  (1 child)
[deleted]
    [–]saladdressed -1 points0 points1 point  (32 children)
    What's female supremacy? What does it look like? How would laws, policies, economics,-- whatever-- change under female supremacy? Who is actually advocating for it and what specifically are they trying to accomplish?
    So I went and looked at feminist.org, the website for the Feminist Majority foundation. They are an actual lobbying group that exists to push a feminist agenda. The "Hot Topics" on the site are the Affordable Care act and its coverage of women's health (primarily dealing with access to contraceptives), the terrorists threats abortion clinics receive, and the white house hiring their first openly transgender employee (they see this as a good thing, FYI, some radical feminists may disagree). The "campaigns and actions" are about protesting the Sultan Brunei for human rights abuses and Taliban like laws, supporting legislation to end sex discrimination in employment, supporting women in Afghanistan (education and health initiatives), and integrating reproductive healthcare into HIV/AIDS treatment globally.
    These actions all have a focus on women and girls, but are they pushing supremacy?
    [–]Ender-of-Bart 7 points8 points9 points  (29 children)
    Affordable Care act and its coverage of women's health - And how it covers procedures for women and not for men?
    [–]bendershead 0 points1 point2 points  (3 children)
    Living in my ivory tower of Canada where "male" procedures are covered as well as "female" procedures, what part of men's health is not covered in the ACA?
    [–]Ender-of-Bart 3 points4 points5 points  (2 children)
    Vasectomies
    [–]bendershead 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
    That's stupid planning on their part. Those are cheaper and safer than tubal ligation, such that docs here tend to push vasectomies for couples that are done with kids. I would argue that is also a feminist issue in that birth control is still treated as the sole responsibility of women.
    [–]Ender-of-Bart 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
    I agree 100% its cheaper, safer and would save tons of money. It would allow men to take the initiative to prevent unwanted children when currently there is little they can do about it.
    [–]saladdressed -4 points-3 points-2 points  (16 children)
    It mandates prescription contraceptive coverage and coverage for sterilization. Theres...not really many prescription options for male contraception. Most insurance companies do cover vasectomies (and in general male sterilization is easier to obtain than female sterilization), but it's true that the ACA was not clear enough to mandate co-pay free vasectomies and that's something we should change. I suspect that once more innovative male contraceptives come to market insurance companies will be mandated to cover them as well (and if they don't then I hope people raise hell). But in the mean time pregnancy, child birth, and contraception are all burdens that fall primarily on women due to biology. They are inescapable parts of being female so the ACA mandates that preventative medical care related to all this must be covered. Men simply do not face comparable health issues when they have sex or reproduce.
    I mean, feminists advocate for women's right to have an abortion but they aren't advocating for a man's right to an abortion. This is kind of the same thing here.
    [–]Ender-of-Bart 4 points5 points6 points  (15 children)
    Male sterilization is not covered and female sterilization is. Men and women suffer from unwanted pregnancies although women have to bear the physical portion of that men have to pay the financial costs with no say or choice. Women have far more control over unwanted pregnancies than men as they have only condoms(86% chance of a pregnancy over 10 years with normal usage) and sterilization. If feminism was really about equality they would want to make things actually equal instead of only benefiting women which is where things like this are going.
    [–]WorthEveryPenny- comment score below threshold-13 points-12 points-11 points  (14 children)
    oh look. we found a slight discrepancy. Femalords and illuminati have been revealed.
    time to bail on equality i guess.
    Seriously. How thick are you?
    [–]Ender-of-Bart 6 points7 points8 points  (11 children)
    Can you not be civil?
    I said nothing about bailing on equality. I think we should focus on equality not rights for one gender or 1 groups over another.
    [–]WorthEveryPenny- comment score below threshold-7 points-6 points-5 points  (10 children)
    Listening to people cry about a few nuanced things that aren't on the list, as an excuse to ignore the entire cause is not worth giving a civil reply.
    That's like saying "i'm not going to support gay rights because they dont have a thing for people who sexually identify as a potato in the current wording of the bill".
    A step forward is a step forward.
    [–]Ender-of-Bart 3 points4 points5 points  (9 children)
    How many things exactly does it take to matter? 1?2? 15? 27? What arbitrary number do you think should be reached to make it a valid point of discussion?
    [–]argon_wilde 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
    Hey since you think it a slight discrepancy can I have some of your money every month for the next 20+ years? How thick indeed.
    [–]WorthEveryPenny- comment score below threshold-6 points-5 points-4 points  (0 children)
    I care more about people not dropping dead in the richest country on earth than I do about a few more dollars off my pay.
    Unclear why funding is suddenly your concern here, but whatever. Selfish-ploy not gonna work.
    [–]mayjay15 comment score below threshold-9 points-8 points-7 points  (7 children)
    Why weren't you pushing to have it cover men's health? I mean, aside from mandated coverage of preventative care for everyone, which it does?
    [–]argon_wilde 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
    Because we've been told feminism is for equality, so we expected feminist legislation to be you know, equal.
    [–]Ender-of-Bart 6 points7 points8 points  (5 children)
    If feminism is for equality why weren't they?
    [–]sun-moon-stars comment score below threshold-9 points-8 points-7 points  (4 children)
    It's awfully sad that you really expect women to take care of YOUR issues, too. Why don't you get off your ass and start taking care of your own problems, dude, rather than blaming women for not mothering you through the political process of lobbying and legislation? Shoo, now. Go do something other than whining about how the girls won't help you out.
    [–]Ender-of-Bart 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
    Oh so it is a womens only movement thanks what I thought.
    [–]Aeiy 6 points7 points8 points  (2 children)
    It's sad that you expect men to take care of YOUR issues. Why don't you get off your ass and start taking care of your own problems, rather than blaming men? Shoo, now. Go do something other than whining about how the naughty men won't help you out.
    
    It's not helpful, but it sure was easy and hilarious.
    [–]sun-moon-stars -5 points-4 points-3 points  (1 child)
    And stupid, considering the fact that women have been organizing, lobbying, and working hard to improve our lot for more than a century. What have you men done to improve your position in the world? Answer: Whine about women.
    [–]Aeiy 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
    What the hell?
    You generalise over and over, and talk gibberish. Are you a troll?
    [–]mayjay15 -3 points-2 points-1 points  (1 child)
    I think she's talking about the stereotypical "SJW" or "tumblrina" that reddit likes to talk about all the time. I'm pretty sure a lot of those are just crazy or teenaged girls who have no idea what they're talking about and don't have any real influence.
    Reddit and many others--usually younger people--tend to conflate those weirdos with "feminism."
    [–]saladdressed -2 points-1 points0 points  (0 children)
    I don't have a tumblr so I guess I'm missing out then!
    I'm really curious what "female supremacy" would be like though. People accuse feminists of wanting female supremacy for wanting insurance that covers birth control pills and legal abortion. Because if women have control over being pregnant it's supremacy?
    [–]FeministTheBotanistMendoza comment score below threshold-15 points-14 points-13 points  (24 children)
    I don't know of anyone who has ever said feminism is about female supremacy other than people who are opposed to feminism.
    [–]Whatsbackstage 15 points16 points17 points  (17 children)
    Spend 10 minutes in r/TumblrInAction and you'll see thousands of instances of the very thing you're claiming doesn't exist.
    [–]WadeK -3 points-2 points-1 points  (7 children)
    Tumblr also has people claiming to be half cat and can do magic spells. Forgive us if we don't think a subreddit specifically designed to find the worst of the worst on Tumblr is going to have a good representation of what real feminists have been doing in this country for more than 100 years.
    [–]Whatsbackstage 6 points7 points8 points  (6 children)
    Who said anything about Tumblr being a good representation of modern day feminism?!?
    The other user said only anti-feminists claim feminism is about female supremacy. I pointed out the sub TumblrInAction because it's filled with posts related to ideas of "female supremacy" and these things aren't exclusively being posted by anti feminists. Or are you just gonna ignore things like #killallmen when they're trending all over the world?
    [–]WadeK comment score below threshold-8 points-7 points-6 points  (5 children)
    Or are you just gonna ignore things like #killallmen
    Yeah. Because nothing comes of it except a bunch of edgy teenagers being edgy to their friends on the internet. Men wanting to kill women because of perceived privilege however...
    [–]Whatsbackstage 9 points10 points11 points  (4 children)
    Are you getting paid to derail discussions or are you just really well practiced?
    [–]WadeK comment score below threshold-10 points-9 points-8 points  (3 children)
    You're the one who brought Tumblr up in the first place as an example of real-life feminists.
    [–]kinglewalls 6 points7 points8 points  (1 child)
    No true Scotsman. Hmmm.
    [–]Whatsbackstage 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
    No actually I brought up a subreddit that contains snippets of Twitter and Tumblr posts that do contain the notion of "female supremacy" quite frequently as a direct response to another user claiming "I don't know of anyone who has ever said feminism is about female supremacy".
    Keep derailing it further though, it's enjoyable to watch how twisted a discussion can become when one person simply refuses to acknowledge an opposing viewpoint such as yourself
    [–]devotedpupa -3 points-2 points-1 points  (0 children)
    And half of them will be Poe's law and people eating trolls's bait.
    [–]Sallad3 -5 points-4 points-3 points  (6 children)
    Just went through the first 15 submissions, couldn't find a single one.
    Edit: Also most posts do not show anything indicating their feminist.
    [–]DoubleDopeDose 7 points8 points9 points  (5 children)
    You're joking? It took me literally the time it took to click the link and wait for the page to load to see exactly what he's referring to.
    [–]Sallad3 -5 points-4 points-3 points  (4 children)
    No, a number of posts was people getting upset about other people barging in into a discussion asking why they didn't care about men, others were how women/minorities can't be sexist or racist, some were just random people going on about crazy stuff not related to feminism and 1 or 2 about "ironic misandry". Neither of those claim feminism is about female supremacy, and even calling any of those I read a call for female supremacy is a very very long stretch.
    [–]DoubleDopeDose 5 points6 points7 points  (3 children)
    You do know it doesn't need to literally say "Call for Female Supremacy" to mean the same? Anything boisterous denouncing males and over empowering women in a condescending bigoted way (Women Rule, Men Drool) would constitute a female supremacy ideology.
    [–]sun-moon-stars -4 points-3 points-2 points  (1 child)
    Women Rule, Men Drool
    Really? Are you really going to try to say that teen girls represent feminism? Puh-leeze.
    [–]DoubleDopeDose 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
    No, I'm trying to say adult women with a teen girl's mentality (apparently) represent the feminism that we all hate, which is not the true feminism to which they should adhere.
    [–]Sallad3 -4 points-3 points-2 points  (0 children)
    Yes, I even explicitly said so, though the OP which we are talking about could be interpreted in asking for the literal thing. So, which one is calling for female supremacy?
    While the whole women/minorities can't be sexist/racist is using a very narrow definition of sexism/racism, it's done so from what they believe to be equality.
    Ironic misandry is targeting a very specific subset of men (at least "male tears" which is the one I remember). I don't agree in using these words, but it's far from a call for female supremacy.
    Lastly, I'm not saying those don't exist, but their clearly a small minority with little influence, which get too much attention on the internet.
    [–]AWildBugHasAppeared -1 points0 points1 point  (5 children)
    Hi there, do I count as a person?
    [–]FeministTheBotanistMendoza 1 point2 points3 points  (4 children)
    That's interesting. Are you saying that you are in favor of female supremacy?
    [–]AWildBugHasAppeared -5 points-4 points-3 points  (3 children)
    Well it can't be worse than male supremacy.
    [–]mayjay15 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
    I'm sure it could be if we tried hard enough.
    [–]YeahImFatSoWhat 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
    Now there's a selling point: "We're not any worse than the other guys, maybe you should give us a chance!"
    [–]FeministTheBotanistMendoza 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
    Point taken. No supremacy would be nice though!
    [–]Arianity 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
    It's not unique to feminism. A small outspoken group can shift perceptions wildly if they get a lot of attention,and that goes especially so if they aren't condemned.
    The crazy people get a lot of coverage,and since feminism is such a diffuse thing,there's no central authority to say "no.this is not what we stand for"in a concerted way.
    This leads to it being seen as "normal",because they're allowed to run away with the narrative
    [–]timeforknowledge 10 points11 points12 points  (36 children)
    I know exactly what you mean and my opinion:
    It is how we are all being educated on feminism, we have a few very loud very outspoken/outlandish wacky women who stand out so much the media cannot ignore them, these women have a very negative/low opinion of men.
    Other women simply don't want to be associated with them so they denounce feminism. If feminism cant even gain the support of the people they are meant to be supporting then it is really stuffed...
    [–]argon_wilde 23 points24 points25 points  (33 children)
    Other women simply don't want to be associated with them so they denounce feminism. If feminism cant even gain the support of the people they are meant to be supporting then it is really stuffed...
    And therein lies the entirety of the problem. Is Feminism for women, or everyone? Because right here in this sentence you imply that feminism exists solely to support women.
    [–]Khorib 18 points19 points20 points  (7 children)
    What it stands for entirely depends on who you ask and, sometimes, what arguement they are trying to win.
    [–]Tedesche 3 points4 points5 points  (6 children)
    No, it's actions are the best guide to what it is really about, and feminism has never done anything to exclusively help men. It's has consistently out women's issues and interests above men's, and has even fought against men's groups trying to raise awareness for men's issues and get laws that discriminate against men changed. Feminism is not about gender equality; it is a women's advancement group, period.
    [–]sun-moon-stars comment score below threshold-9 points-8 points-7 points  (5 children)
    feminism has never done anything to exclusively help men
    Why the fuck should it? It was a movement established to help women get the vote, have some control over their lives and bodies, and allow them equal legal rights to those of men. How does that mission suggest that feminism should EXCLUSIVELY do anything for men, who have historically had all the power in society? Jesus fucking christ. Does it always have to be about men? You poor little thing.
    [–]Waldhuette 6 points7 points8 points  (1 child)
    You are not getting it. Feminists claim feminism is about equality. Equality means improving bad situations for all people. There are different areas of problems. There are problems that affect women, areas that affect women and men, and areas that affect men. Equality means improving all those areas and not only those that affect women. Yes sometimes one of the solved problems is in the pool that includes men but that was not their goal. It was a byproduct. How would you feel if you are the byproduct. It does not always have to be about men but with feminism it is never about men. Men are only a byproduct and if those feminist really believe that it benefits both genders and is for equality for all then men shouldnt be only a byproduct.
    [–]sun-moon-stars comment score below threshold-6 points-5 points-4 points  (0 children)
    Equality means improving bad situations for all people.
    One of your male compatriots in this thread complained that feminism never does anything EXCLUSIVELY for men. And that's a retarded complaint, as feminism was established as a movement because women have been historically oppressed. That doesn't mean that there aren't areas where men's lives need to be improved as well, but virtually all of those areas are naturally improved when women's position in society is bettered. I think it is absurd for men to want an organization that was founded to help the plight of women--who ffs were deemed chattel for several thousand years, who could not even have a credit card in their own name until the 1970s, who couldn't vote, couldn't have a career, couldn't admit to enjoying sex or feel entitled to an orgasm--to focus exclusively on men's issues. The world has been your oyster for a very long time. If you think things need to be improved, then go work on improving them rather than expecting me and other women to do it for you. We are so over being the servants of men.
    [–]argon_wilde 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
    Does it always have to be about men? You poor little thing.
    No, but once would be nice.
    I'm really not sure how you go from "why should feminism do anything exclusively for men?" To "it's always about the men" within the confines of the same paragraph, but we're here now and I'm listening. I'm hoping for something good.
    [–]cecilrt 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
    Because feminism is suppose to stand for equality...
    you think men like working long hours and having no/little relationship with their kids
    [–]timeforknowledge -5 points-4 points-3 points  (23 children)
    you know what i mean.... and in its current form it defiantly does not do anything to support men... feminism by definition is for equality of women so who else do you think it is meant to be supporting?
    [–]argon_wilde 30 points31 points32 points  (22 children)
    Well I'm always told it's for equality. If it's really for "equality for women" then I want nothing of it and would expect that no-one else should want to either. You can't achieve equality by focusing solely on the problems, societal expectations, and gender roles of a single gender. It will never happen.
    [–]nothanks555 comment score below threshold-16 points-15 points-14 points  (6 children)
    Except, that's exactly what NEEDED to happen when first gen feminists marched. We're living in a different world today, sure, but that's largely due to past successes in getting equal rights for women.
    The backlash movement feels contrived and directionless. I don't see actual legislation being lobbied for to correct these alleged inequalities; rather, there's just a lot of noise on the internet about how it's somehow the responsibility of feminists to fix all the issues for BOTH genders. I don't agree with that standpoint. Women identified the issues we wanted corrected and worked towards correcting them despite the obstacles in our way (a male-dominated government system that has historically always advantaged men). If men feel they are lacking rights in certain areas, then why isn't the answer to actually form a movement to get things done, rather than shout down feminists who they believe are somehow taking something away from them? All I see coming out of MRA movements is anger and vitriol (and a lot of spam messages) which drowns out the discussions men probably should be having. We still live in a world where a good 90% of people in control of the things that matter are men. One would think with that kind of backing more would actually get done.
    I think it's really unfair to put the onus on women to fix all the issues for both genders.
    [–]Arianity 13 points14 points15 points  (0 children)
    I think it's really unfair to put the onus on women to fix all the issues for both genders.
    It's not that the onus is on women,it's that the onus is on everybody to fix issues for both genders. The think goes,if it's for true equality,you should be able to support both genders,not just your own.its not supposed to be a competition
    Aside:it's extremely hard to talk about men's issues (especially white male).we're still living in the past in that it's still fairly taboo to talk about men's issues,even though it shouldn't take away from any other movement.its not taken seriously,and if you try,you're often labeled an MRA or a red pillar off the bat,no matter how tame your actual views are.
    [–]scoobertron 12 points13 points14 points  (0 children)
    there's just a lot of noise on the internet about how it's somehow the responsibility of feminists to fix all the issues for BOTH genders. I don't agree with that standpoint
    I think the issue is confused because on the one hand, feminists tend to claim that because feminism deals with men's issues as well, men don't need a separate men's rights movement. However, there also seems to be great reluctance to e.g. bring male rape victims into the public dialogue about rape, because that would dilute the message that rape is a women's issue (a view I disagree with), which would suggest that it is someone else's responsibility to campaign for male rape victims.
    [–]argon_wilde 9 points10 points11 points  (3 children)
    I think it's really unfair to put the onus on women to fix all the issues for both genders.
    You could have posted just this and it would have summed up the entirety of your views on feminism in so far as this conversation is concerned. Your view is that feminism is for women only, got it.
    [–]sun-moon-stars comment score below threshold-9 points-8 points-7 points  (2 children)
    Oh, get the fuck back to men's rights sub. You clearly cannot reason to save your life.
    [–]argon_wilde 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
    Oh, get the fuck back to men's rights sub. You clearly cannot reason to save your life.
    Haha, did you actually read that when you typed it?
    [–]Feel_Free_To_Downvot 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
    Don't be that cliché :( Someone disagrees me, therefore they are evil is not the way moderns society runs
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                [–]mayjay15 comment score below threshold-16 points-15 points-14 points  (3 children)
                You can't achieve equality by focusing solely on the problems, societal expectations, and gender roles of a single gender. It will never happen.
                Er, if one is more oppressed on the other, then wouldn't it make sense to try to help the more oppressed group catch up?
                If Jane has 6 apples, and Jim has 10, giving Jane a few more apples isn't going to achieve equality?
                Additionally, can you name a single, prominent, effective group that focuses on the issues of all groups? As far as I know, basically every activist and non-profit group focuses on the issues of one or a few groups or one aspect of issues that affect many groups. Probably because it's near impossible to try to fix everything at once on limited budgets with few staff.
                [–]gilbertpinfold 14 points15 points16 points  (2 children)
                If Jane has 6 apples, and Jim has 10, giving Jane a few more apples isn't going to achieve equality?
                Yeah, but if Jim has 10 apples, and Jane has 6 apples and default custody of their children, it becomes more complicated. So maybe let's not attempt to reduce the problems of society to a first grade math problem.
                [–]mayjay15 comment score below threshold-13 points-12 points-11 points  (1 child)
                You do know that Jane has default custody of the children because Jane is the primary caretaker of the children in almost all cases (though not all, thanks in part to feminism making it less taboo for women to work and for men to contribute to raising kids), and that, the vast majority of time, if Jim actually makes an attempt to get custody, he will share custody, right? At least use an accurate example.
                Additionally, what makes you think that custody wasn't one of Jane's 6 apples already?
                [–]argon_wilde 9 points10 points11 points  (0 children)
                If you were a man attempting to gain custody of his children in divorce proceedings you wouldn't treat this issue so flippantly. You can point to the numbers all you want, but nothing is quantifying the fact that when a father walks into the lawyer's office, he's told "you're gonna need about $60,000 to start if you want to try to get custody". Somehow I don't think women are getting that same message.
                [–]sun-moon-stars comment score below threshold-9 points-8 points-7 points  (1 child)
                for equality.
                Do a little thinking now, dude. Women were historically oppressed by men for several thousand years. Equality means lifting women up to that same lofty status as men. It does NOT mean lifting men higher as we rise. Use some critical thinking here. You can do it if you try. . . .
                [–]cecilrt 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
                Pushing men up in unequal areas also allows woman to acheive equality as well
                In regards to leave for having kids, most western nations just throw money at woman... this just makes employing woman more expensive
                One of the Nordics nation forced men to take paternity leave... from there on its hard for employers to take a bias against woman
                [–]turndownthesun -5 points-4 points-3 points  (0 children)
                He implied nothing, you interpreted that through your own bias.
                [–]not_just_amwac 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
                Pretty much. In this era, sensationalism is what sells in the media. So if they can find a victim narrative (you know, the whole "oh, look at the poor woman getting harassed" when it's actually just someone calling the woman on misinformation/lies/whatever) and drum up outrage in their viewers/readers... well, they'll run with it.
                Anita Sarkeesian is a good example of this, and she does it herself. During E3, she was bemoaning the violence in the newest installation of the DOOM franchise. Gamers called her out on it, because, frankly, it's DOOM, a game about defeating the demon hordes of hell come to kill everyone, why on earth would it NOT be violent? Most of that calling out consisted of comments along the lines of "have you even played the DOOM games?" because to them, it was utterly incomprehensible that someone who's played them would make such remarks.
                Her response to that was to cry misogyny. To quote:
                It’s just tired old sexism when my criticisms of video games are met with accusations that I don’t play them.
                This kind of ad hominem attack does nothing to help her. She quite simply makes herself out to be a victim while ignoring the possibility that the reason she's being questioned has fuck all to do with her gender and everything to do with not wanting to face criticism of any kind.
                [–]TossingBalls comment score below threshold-6 points-5 points-4 points  (0 children)
                Building on what you said, the US unfortunately has a very weak leadership (if any) on feminism, and the supporters of mainstream feminism are therefor largely silent.
                Compare and contrast with the LGBT movement.
                [–]cdb03b 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
                There is the common idiom "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". This saying means that it is the one that is loud that gets attention. With any movement the part that is most vocal gets the most attention, and the part that gets the most attention is the part that defines the movement to society as a whole. It is seldom an accurate thing, but it is a basic human reaction to things.
                [–]:DLinooney 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
                Funnily enough, in China and I think Japan (possibly other Asian countries as well), the saying is "The nail that sticks up is hammered down".
                [–]KeeganJS 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
                It is not the actions of so few, modern third wave feminism has a large majority of women who just hate men.
                As for feminism today, it is almost completely unnecessary. Women just as free if not more so than men in America, and definitely the most free women in the world.
                [–]Nerdy glasses = Lovexorosetylerxo 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                The few are always louder then the majority both in actions and in words, because they have to be loud to get the attention whilst the majority sits back so if you're hearing for example feminism for the first time the chances are like me you'll hear the few first and then it'll put you off until you hear from the majority.
                [–]TheGoluxNoMereDevice 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                I think it has a lot to do with nuance or more importantly the complete lack of it. As feminist issues become less and less about legal rights and more about social perception your methods have to change change too. Protests and petitions are great when it comes to legal rights. however when it comes to changing peoples thoughts and words (ban bossy, throw like a girl, ect. ect. ect.) these tactics stop working and frankly just look silly and annoying.
                If you want my advice to be taken seriously youre gonna have to: 1) stop acting like its 1950, feminism has done some great things to even out society. youre going to have to admit that youve won a huge number of issues. youre winners start acting like it. 2) and this ties in pretty well to number one, really really stop using junk statistics. Im talking the 77 cents to the dollar pay gap and 1/5 women get raped. If your talking points can be debunked in .5 of a second people lose interest in the rest of your potentially valid point. 3) stop acting like feminists and feminist ideals are on the fringe. like it or not in many areas feminists have become a protected class. pitching yourself as a rebel when you aren't just makes you look like a try hard.
                4) and this is the last one. Stop saying you dont hate men, and just stop HATING MEN. The male tears shit, #KillAllMen and the all men are secret rapists crap is just an amazingly huge turn of.
                [–]Haust 3 points4 points5 points  (2 children)
                Feminism had many unjust things to correct in the past. It was a necessity that brought about good. Now, as issues dwindle, the need for feminism does, too. However, people within the movement still want to be as relevant as it was back in the late 1800s. How can that be done with so few issues? Be loud and angry on lesser or pointless issues, like a scientist's shirt.
                That's why views have changed. Feminism fought against gross injustices long ago. Today, it fights for the sake of staying relevant. It's hard to respect it when so many take up the mantle to fight against Spider Women's cover of all things.
                [–]sun-moon-stars comment score below threshold-8 points-7 points-6 points  (1 child)
                Now, as issues dwindle, the need for feminism does, too.
                More than 300 laws restricting abortions rights have been passed in the US in the past year alone. Quite a few of the current Republican candidates for president have stated that they would support a federal law banning all abortion, even for the life of the mother, rape, and incest. Feminism is needed now more than ever, and it is disingenuous to suggest otherwise. The right to control one's own body is neither "lesser" nor "pointless."
                [–]RafaelSirah 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
                You honestly believe feminism is more needed now compared to the turn of the 19th century?
                [–]Rewdboy05 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
                Because scandal spreads faster and father than anything else.
                Take Donald Trump, for instance; we hear about all the ridiculous things he's saying instantly. In the meantime, serious candidates' viewpoints are being overlooked to make sure we have the bandwidth to hear more about what parts of the Constitution Donald thinks are unconstitutional now.
                It's the same situation. You hear all about the feminists who claim all sex to be rape while reasonable arguments fail to find viral success.
                TL;DR: The crying baby gets the milk meant to feed the whole family.
                [–]Talfrey 1 point2 points3 points  (21 children)
                I can only assume that you mean the negative view of feminism, notably the weird what is often called "tumblr feminism".
                And it's the same reason why most Americans think so poorly of muslims. When your interactions with a group are limited, you base them off of what few interactions you DO have, and notably you tend to remember negative interactions far worse.
                So when your average person has relatively few interactions with people openly identifying as "Feminists" and one of those interactions is someone who perhaps jumps down their throat for something that is say, unintentionally construed as sexist ...Then given that limited interaction, some people's limited view of feminism can be poor.
                An example might be a girl who is in a white water rafting group getting upset when the instructor says "Are you guys ready to go white water rafting?" and she is the only girl.
                While the instructor may have simply meant "Guys" in a gender neutral sense, the girl might easily see it as a slight against her. She may construe it as the instructor assuming she's not going because she's a girl.
                This might have just been the final straw, perhaps her trip to Colorado has been nothing but people assuming she's a bystander, and not a participant on the mountain biking, climbing, or other activities because she's a girl. Before, she's simply corrected them and enjoyed herself.
                But this time, it sets her off, and she blows up on the guy.
                Now the guy, who has probably encountered maybe 5 self identified feminists in his life, has just had a terrible interaction, and probably even been called a "Misogynist" or something.
                Now thanks to a failing of communication, he probably thinks shittily of feminists.
                That's really assuming a best case scenario, and ignoring the people we all know exist for the sole purpose of seeking out people to be outraged by and flame.
                That being said, if there were a checklist for "Being a Feminist", a vast majority of people that still claim "They are not feminists" or are even "Anti-Feminism" would likely check most if not all of the boxes on that list.
                I hope that helps answer your question.
                [–]argon_wilde 26 points27 points28 points  (20 children)
                It's pretty easy to be a feminist when you read the writings of equity feminists. It's a lot harder to actually swallow the idea that feminism is really for everyone when you look at what's been done under the banner of feminism.
                Personally, I judge actions more than words.
                [–][deleted]  (14 children)
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                  [–]argon_wilde 12 points13 points14 points  (12 children)
                  Well how about the Duluth model to start with.
                  [–]Khorib 13 points14 points15 points  (4 children)
                  Tender Years doctrine is another which, ironically, is the whole reason we now think women should be primary caretakers of young children. The ironic part is because this is usually blamed on the patriarchy when it was actualy early feminist that created it in the first place.
                  [–]WadeK -1 points0 points1 point  (3 children)
                  Which is why before the feminist movements of the early 1900's and the resurgence in the 60's, there were no women taking care of children.
                  Wait...
                  [–]Khorib 2 points3 points4 points  (2 children)
                  Before the 1900s, if you split up, the children would go to the father. While married, the men would work and women wouldn't and would thus care for any children they had.
                  The Tender Years doctrine changed it so women became the default caretakers of a split family.
                  [–]WadeK -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
                  Yes and no? The children would always go to live with the mother (until age 7, that age was raised to 16 in 1873) but they would be the "property" of the father. Meaning he made all legal choices for the child, but she had to raise them. In 1886 a law was passed that would take the child's welfare into account, but it was always recommended that the child be with the caretaker, even if their father was the legal owner.
                  [–]mayjay15 -3 points-2 points-1 points  (0 children)
                  Before the 1900s, if you split up, the children would go to the father.
                  Yes, because the father was seen as the true "owner" of the children. He wouldn't be expected to raise them directly. That would go to a governess or some kind of live-in maid or a new wife.
                  The Tender Years doctrine changed it so women became the default caretakers of a split family.
                  Don't data show that women are the primary caretakers in the vast majority of households today, split or not?
                  [–]mayjay15 comment score below threshold-7 points-6 points-5 points  (6 children)
                  Well how about the Duluth model to start with.
                  Yeah, the Duluth Model isn't great, but I don't think many feminist organizations openly support it anymore. The last bout of support I saw of it was over a decade ago.
                  So, besides the Dululth Model, what else have feminists done? Get women into the workforce? Is that harmful to men? No longer being the sole breadwinners?
                  Pushed for women to be able to serve on the front lines of combat? Stealing men's thunder again?
                  Pushed for more equal wages? Stealin' men's money again?
                  [–]argon_wilde 7 points8 points9 points  (5 children)
                  Look, you can sit there and rattle off all the great things feminism has done or is doing for women with a sarcastic tone as if I think they're terrible or something, but I don't. I'm not stating that feminism has always been bad or even is entirely bad today and I don't dispute that feminism has done wonderful things for women and even society at large, although I would say putting women in the workforce in the manner in which we did it has ultimately made us all poorer.
                  However I was being asked to name off the bad things done in the name of advancing feminism, and you can pretty much pick any one of an infinite number of things. You really need something more recent? Here's a feminist stating we shouldn't send women to prison anymore, for anything! She's even in a position of power, by gods she's probably even teaching this shit to impressionable young people.
                  [–]sun-moon-stars -2 points-1 points0 points  (4 children)
                  putting women in the workforce in the manner in which we did it has ultimately made us all poorer.
                  What does this mean?
                  Also, the woman who wrote the article you've linked wants to shut down prisons for both women and men, but wants to start with women, as they are much less likely to be violent offenders:
                  Essentially, the case for closing women’s prisons is the same as the case for imprisoning fewer men. It is the case against the prison industrial complex and for community-based treatment where it works better than incarceration. But there is evidence that prison harms women more than men, so why not start there?
                  So how bad is this feminist who thinks men are also incarcerated at numbers that are simply too high? She doesn't want to let any violent offenders loose on the public--not men or women--but wants all non-violent offenders, especially drug offenders, to have a different route. Sure the main thrust of her argument involves women--but as she says, only as a "start" to an entire prison reform for the US, which is clearly needed. How can you object to that?
                  [–]argon_wilde 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                  Sure the main thrust of her argument involves women--but as she says, only as a "start" to an entire prison reform for the US, which is clearly needed. How can you object to that?
                  Ladies first? Really? That's the argument we're supposed to buy?
                  [–]argon_wilde 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
                  So what I'm referring to is the fact that most households today are dual income and this is necessary just to make ends meet for many when before a single income was sufficient. Feminism unchained women from the home, but failed to unchain men from the workplace at the same time. As the number of dual-income households hit a tipping point, it became the norm and I'm afraid it's now impossible to go back.
                  [–]sun-moon-stars -2 points-1 points0 points  (1 child)
                  Don't be ridiculous. Literally hundreds of thousands of single parents--mostly women--are making do on a single income. It may not allow them money for fancy vacations or big-screen televisions, but it's perfectly possible to live on a single income.
                  [–]argon_wilde 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                  In the USA, the median income for families led by a single mother is about $26,000. A single parent is not making do on a single income if they're receiving any of the following: Alimony, welfare, social security, or child support. (and I'm betting there are plenty I've missed here).
                  I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands as you say, but it's also generally accepted that the poverty rate for single-parent households headed by the mother is roughly 60%.
                  I think at this point you would call me a liar for saying the sky is blue.
                  [–]Sadistic_Toaster 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                  There was that 40 year hate campaign against Trans* people
                  [–]Talfrey comment score below threshold-9 points-8 points-7 points  (2 children)
                  Do you use the same logic for Muslims and Christians? Cause that's a lot of people you're putting under one umbrella.
                  [–]argon_wilde 15 points16 points17 points  (0 children)
                  Wait, are you talking movements here or people?
                  If religions well then of course I would and do judge religions by the same logic and I'm perfectly willing to call both of those religions a bunch of hooey and responsible for some of the greatest sufferings mankind has ever seen.
                  I also do understand that the people within those movements have varying levels of culpability in the acts and deeds perpetrated by said movements, if that is what you are asking.
                  [–]hms11 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                  You mean like how most people would probably hesitate slightly before trusting their young boy with a Catholic priest? or how Muslims are currently judged by the actions of a psychotic group in the Middle East?
                  Yeah, I'd say it's about the same logic.
                  [–]FeministTheBotanistMendoza comment score below threshold-16 points-15 points-14 points  (0 children)
                  So-called "equity" feminists work to oppose feminism. That's fine that that's their thing, but they are being disingenuous by referring to themselves as something they oppose.
                  Anti-feminists are big fans of them for this reason. I have seen that men's rights activists are very fond of the equity feminists.
                  [–][deleted]  (4 children)
                  [deleted]
                    [–]tehallie 12 points13 points14 points  (3 children)
                    I totally agree that there's a marked difference between feminism and misandry, but I feel like you're not factoring in the large overlaps between the two camps. Many people who identify as "feminist" may not be actively "misandrist", but they espouse views and perspectives that are to the detriment of male-identified folks. As an example, many people who identify as "feminist" actively oppose things like domestic violence shelters for men, or the expansion (or elimination outright) of the draft to women. Those might NOT be in the "kill all men" camp of misandry, but they certainly result in harm to men.
                    EDIT: Forgot a word
                    [–]sun-moon-stars -2 points-1 points0 points  (1 child)
                    many people who identify as "feminist" actively oppose things like . . . the expansion (or elimination outright) of the draft to women
                    You might find some girl who sits next to you in PoliSci take this view, but the official position of NOW has been for decades that the draft registration requirement for men should be eliminated, but barring that, the requirement should be opened to include both men and women. Which position is the credible feminist position--the one from the girl in your class or the one espoused by the main representative organization for feminism in the United States? You decide. Oh, and don't take my word for it. Use google or go to the NOW website and use the search bar to find out the stance on this issue. And it's been the feminist stance for decades.
                    [–]tehallie 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
                    That's why I specified "People who identified as feminist" rather than "feminist organizations".
                    [–]mayjay15 comment score below threshold-9 points-8 points-7 points  (0 children)
                    I've never heard of a non-misandrist who thought there shouldn't be DV resources for men. I've heard people say that trying to push under-funded DV shelters for women to open new shelters for men might not be a good idea, for obvious reasons . . .
                    [–]bamboosticks comment score below threshold-7 points-6 points-5 points  (1 child)
                    People have always hated feminists. It's always been like this.
                    [–]sun-moon-stars -3 points-2 points-1 points  (0 children)
                    Good movie coming out soon called Suffragette, starring Meryl Streep, that will illustrate your point.
                    [–]FeministTheBotanistMendoza comment score below threshold-8 points-7 points-6 points  (0 children)
                    That's a very vague statement. Could you explain what you are referring to?
                    [–]ThisSiteIsDumbAndBad comment score below threshold-21 points-20 points-19 points  (16 children)
                    They haven't.
                    It's only on reddit and other disreputable internet sites that these terrible "radical feminists" are destroying feminism.
                    They only exist in the minds of the sad cranks of the Internet, though.
                    In the real world, among people with actual influence and power, "views on feminism" haven't changed, except to become more entrenched and more widely spread.
                    [–]Whatsbackstage 16 points17 points18 points  (14 children)
                    "in the real world" the overwhelming majority of Americans don't identify as feminists including roughly 80% of women. It's not just on the Internet, nice try though.
                    [–]ThisSiteIsDumbAndBad comment score below threshold-13 points-12 points-11 points  (6 children)
                    The ideals that feminism has fought for are so universally accepted, there's no need to identify as "feminist" explicitly. Because feminism won already.
                    Reddit's retrograde MRA dorks and their ridiculous opinions, on the other hand, have lost. They are represented nowhere in actual life. When they do poke their sorry heads out of their caves, they're figures of derision and ridicule.
                    Nice try, though.
                    [–]Whatsbackstage 8 points9 points10 points  (5 children)
                    Your username is "thissiteisdumbandbad" and you spend nearly all of your posts in subs specifically designed to complain about the site. But, yeah, you're probably right about SJW issues and all. Do you do anything on reddit besides argue about reddit?
                    [–]ThisSiteIsDumbAndBad comment score below threshold-14 points-13 points-12 points  (4 children)
                    I'm clearly an expert on how horrible people on reddit are.
                    And I don't know what you mean by "SJW issues," but I'm right about how MRAs are viewed in the real world.
                    [–]Whatsbackstage 9 points10 points11 points  (3 children)
                    Browsing "thebluepill" or "SRS" doesn't make you an expert on anything.
                    [–]ThisSiteIsDumbAndBad comment score below threshold-13 points-12 points-11 points  (2 children)
                    Spending a lot of time on reddit makes me an expert on Redditors
                    It's not a very deep field of study, I admit, because most redditors' are comically shallow and transparent. Plus, not-very-bright.
                    [–]Ztiller1 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
                    "Everybody are stupid except me"
                    [–]ThisSiteIsDumbAndBad -2 points-1 points0 points  (0 children)
                    Not everybody. Just reddit's woman-haters.
                    [–]WadeK comment score below threshold-9 points-8 points-7 points  (6 children)
                    So? The majority of Americans don't identify as gay but that doesn't mean the issues that minority brings up aren't important.
                    [–]Whatsbackstage 8 points9 points10 points  (5 children)
                    The other user specifically said it's only on reddit and other websites where feminism has a negative view. The fact that almost everybody in the USA specifically does not want to be associated with feminism is living proof that statement is not true
                    [–]WadeK comment score below threshold-8 points-7 points-6 points  (4 children)
                    I'm going to need a source on that, then, if it's something out in "the real world". Feminism in action today works with groups to provide science retreats for girls, keeps abortion clinics open and pushed courts to consider joint custody for children in a divorce rather than single custody (giving the antiquated idea that children are meant for women/mothers the boot). They opened up military positions for women. They gave women the right to open a credit card, buy a car or buy a house without her father or husband's permission. And this weekend there's a big rally in my city that's attempting to make it legal for a woman to be topless anywhere that a man is (mostly started by mothers wanting to nurse their kids without going into a nasty public bathroom.)
                    Internet feminism is about manspreading. Which, interestingly enough, hasn't gotten enough traction among the mainstream feminists to even garner a public meeting or speakers.
                    I don't know a single person in real life who doesn't want to be associated with the things that real-life feminists are accomplishing. I have known a couple radical feminists, but they're basically crazy idiots shouting nonsense into the void. Nobody takes them seriously in real life... well, nobody except for the people trying to discredit ALL feminism.
                    [–]skrill_talk 4 points5 points6 points  (2 children)
                    pushed courts to consider joint custody for children in a divorce rather than single custody
                    Really? That's interesting. I'd like to take a glance at an example of this, when you get a chance.
                    [–]WadeK -5 points-4 points-3 points  (0 children)
                    Sure! So like... this has been a major move away from the previous way of thinking, which was that the mother got full custody and the father paid child support and alimony. Mostly since the late 80's/early 90's, there's been a push on courts to use joint custody instead of sole custody because it's better for the child's development. This source using studies from the late 90's shows that the majority of custody cases (80%) are decided without any court mediation, but of the 20% that DO need a third party, courts will advise joint custody (25% of children going to joint custody when it's the choice of the parents, 40% when it's the choice of the courts). This happened because of organizations like the Children's Rights Council and the American Coalition for Fathers and Children (Which despite the gendered name, uses very gender neutral language in their mission and statements, and I think very much fits perfectly in line with feminists who are working to dispel the myth that women are always the best caretakers because of biology) and Leading Women for Shared Parenting as well, to demonstrate a female-led feminist group.
                    Statistics for couples awarded joint legal custody are getting better and better because of studies that show that it's just better for the kids to have both parents, or at least multiple role models/caretakers present. I have much better sources when I'm not on my work computer, lol. Not only is it better for the children, but it's better for the mothers because they don't necessarily have to take on the stress and work of raising a child by themselves because "That's what women do, amirite?" And it's better for the fathers who want to be an active, major presence in their child's life because it focuses on men being just as good as women at being caretakers and parents.
                    [–]Whatsbackstage 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                    Google "how many Americans identify as feminists" and you'll see links to where I got the numbers from. I believe only 23% of women identify and even fewer men do.
                    As far as the rest if your post goes, well, here's the thing... feminism is just an ideology. It's a label. It does not have rigid requirements or beliefs or boundaries. You say "feminists are about X and Y but not Z" but that's not how it works. That's just the criteria you think feminism is about. You can't sit here on the Internet and attempt to claim what other people's exposure and opinions on feminism are. That doesn't make any sense and is very narrow minded. So you and a few others are trying to claim that only the Internet bring out the crazies and that in real life feminists are much more level-headed and rational, yet if I spend 30 seconds on Google I can find legitimate quotes from actual real life prominent feminist authors and advocates claiming shit like "every time a man and woman have sex it's rape" or similar diatribe about how evil and oppressive the "patriarchy" is.
                    I don't know a single person in real life who doesn't want to be associated with the things that real-life feminists are accomplishing.
                    Seems like you feel very strongly about feminism and social issues so it'd make sense that you hang out with others with similar views to yourself
                    [–]Arianity 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                    I'd disagree there. I don't have much beyond anecdotal evidence (so take it as you will ),but I saw the same shift before the internet/reddit got popular.
                    It did happen here,kind of in a bubble,but it seems part of a broader trend. Reddit is worse than the general public because of echo chamber and isolation effects.
                    [–]mambisa comment score below threshold-22 points-21 points-20 points  (0 children)
                    There's always been a smear campaign against feminism based on deception and misrepresentation. See the myth of "bra burning" in the 1960s/70s.
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