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ArticleIn Defense of Eating Meat (3quarksdaily.com)

phileconomicus 投稿

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[–]sguntun 33ポイント34ポイント  (29子コメント)

This article strikes me as very poor for a number of reasons.

1) It ignores that there are strong arguments against eating meat that are committed neither to utilitarianism nor to the existence of animal rights (1, 2).

2) It's not at all clear what the author means by saying that "Singer argues that any being that suffers has full moral status." This is false, at least if we take "full moral status" to mean the same moral status as typical adult human beings. Singer famously argues that newborn babies, for instance, lack the moral status of adults. And of course, Singer doesn't think that we owe the same considerations to a cow as to a human being--he just thinks that, insofar as each one has an interest in not suffering, we're prima facie obligated to respect that interest. The fact that one is a cow and one is a human being has no moral relevance to those obligations.

3) The author assumes that, if we do buy Singer's utilitarian arguments, we should be committed to the repugnant conclusion, and hence to thinking that we're justified in causing untold amounts of suffering to animals, just as long as we raise enough of them. This assumes that utilitarians must be concerned with total utility, and not average utility, in a population. But this assumption is false.

4) The author asks, "if suffering is bad then according to utilitarianism it does not matter whether the suffering is caused by disease, accidents, predators, or overcrowding in stockyards. Why then is human-caused suffering worse than the suffering animals endure in the wild?" But who is committed to claiming that human-caused suffering is worse than suffering in the wild? We're responsible for the suffering we cause, and we shouldn't cause suffering. The existence of suffering that we don't cause can hardly justify our causing any suffering we want, regardless of whether the suffering we don't cause is greater or lesser than the suffering we do cause.

5) Actually, the author has a kind of answer to that. He says the following:

Yet, many utilitarians including Singer seem indifferent to the suffering of wild animals, focusing only on suffering caused by raising animals for food. Granted, when animals are killed for food they are killed intentionally. Animals killed by predators, disease, or the building of human settlements are not killed intentionally. But intentions are not supposed to matter for utilitarians; only states of affairs matter.

First of all, it's false to say that "intentions are not supposed to matter for utilitarians." Utilitarians would have us act in a way that we could reasonably expect to produce the most happiness (or whatever it is that your specific theory of utilitarianism tells us to produce). It's not like we're praiseworthy if we drive drunk and accidentally crash into Hitler's car, or something. And second, intentions don't even seem to be the matter at issue here. It's not like we intentionally cause cows to die on farms, but accidentally cause gazelles to die when lions eat them. We don't cause the gazelles to die at all!

6) Citing one study of Australian agriculture is hardly sufficient to establish the thesis that eating plants causes as much suffering and death as eating animals. Especially as most livestock raised for meat are fed on plants we grow, in most cases it's almost certainly true that eating plants causes less suffering.

7) The author performs some self-described "speculation" on animal psychology to conclude that animals probably don't mind suffering very much. Where on earth this conclusion comes from I don't know. As has been pointed out many times, there's no obvious reason to think that greater higher-order cognition will always be associated with greater suffering (or greater badness of suffering).

8) Near the end of the article, the author turns to metaethics, saying this:

Morality is not a set of principles written in the stars. Morality arises, because as human beings, we need to cooperate with each other in order to thrive, and such cooperation requires trust. The institution of morality is a set of considerations that helps to secure the requisite level of trust to enable that cooperation. That is why morality is a stable evolutionary development.

This position is at least contentious, probably false, and not argued for at all. If we need to argue for this position to deny that we have obligations not to cause animals to suffer, then by all means argue for it--but the author hasn't done that here.

9) Apparently realizing that his position might commit us to thinking that we're free to do whatever we please to animals, the author slips this point in at the end:

This is not to say we should be cruel to animals, lack empathy for them, or ignore their welfare. The reason is not that they have rights. Rather it is because cruelty is a character flaw that we should strive to overcome.

It's not exactly clear what the message is supposed to be here. It's either a kind of statement of virtue ethics--in which case, if we can dismiss utilitarianism for being controversial, surely we can dismiss virtue ethics as well--or else it's merely saying that, while some mistreatment of animals is acceptable, "cruelty" is not. But what exactly constitutes cruelty seems to be at least one of the matters at issue here, so just asserting that raising animals for meat is not cruel is question-begging.

10) Finally, the author appeals to our limited "moral energy":

The humane treatment of animals is one among many moral projects we should undertake, but it has no special priority over the many more pressing human needs that cry out for our attention.

This is simply dishonest. No one is saying that we should ignore human suffering and focus on animal suffering instead. Not eating meat is not some huge undertaking to which we must commit hours out of our days. It's just something we don't do. It's about as easy as not holding slaves or not committing rape.

[–]a7neu 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

First of all, it's false to say that "intentions are not supposed to matter for utilitarians." Utilitarians would have us act in a way that we could reasonably expect to produce the most happiness (or whatever it is that your specific theory of utilitarianism tells us to produce). It's not like we're praiseworthy if we drive drunk and accidentally crash into Hitler's car, or something. And second, intentions don't even seem to be the matter at issue here. It's not like we intentionally cause cows to die on farms, but accidentally cause gazelles to die when lions eat them. We don't cause the gazelles to die at all!

Don't remember much from my philosophy classes so I'm not 100% on theories and this is going to be somewhat clumsy, but I'll attempt to expand on what I think the author was getting at.

I think where he's going with "intentions not mattering for utilitarians" is that suffering has moral implications outside of the human world, whereas I think in most theories, or at least more deontological theories, good and bad necessarily involve humans. Under Singer's utilitarianism, the wellbeing of a frog in the middle of the Amazon is as relevant as a child's; even though humans may never come within 100 miles of it, its suffering is relevant. Whereas under something more eg Kant-like, we might be worried about how we treat the frog but how the frog fares on its own, amongst carnivorous plants and snakes and territorial disputes, is not morally relevant.

Now if a kudu's suffering is 100% as morally relevant as a cow's, regardless of what inflicts it (a lion or a human) and where it takes place (the wild or in captivity), we should be equally committed to protecting kudu as we are cattle. There might be barriers to that, like how to protect the kudu without starving the lion or denuding the savanna, but surely the goal should be to prevent all predation. Even if right now that's an impractical, idealistic goal, it's still a worthy goal, and we should perhaps be thinking about how to segregate predators and prey, feed carnivores lab-grown meat, control populations through contraception, provide veterinary care etc. I think Singer dismisses this in his main piece by saying that it would be hard to do without inadvertently causing greater suffering, but he doesn't really explore this implication of his theory much.

I don't think most people think of ending suffering of animals in nature as a moral goal, though. For contrast, we might decline to intervene militarily against ISIS or fail to send food/water/medicine to suffering people in South Sudan on the grounds of lack of resources or transportation logistics or political situations or potentially making the problem worse etc etc. but we all agree that this situation is horrendous, that it needs to be stopped somehow and that relieving the suffering of these people should be a goal for moral people.

If you're only interested in moral obligations toward animals that reduce their suffering inflicted by people, then you are saying animal suffering itself isn't what matters, but human conduct. I think that's where he's going with the Virtue Ethics-like bit at the end. (IIRC Kant's perspective towards animal welfare was along those lines as well - don't kick the dog because it belongs to someone and/or you're fostering anti-social behaviors)

[–]Fatesurge 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm trying to think about how to resolve the contradictions you've identified, while emphasising my position of vegetarianism ;)

So in the animal kingdom, it's all dog eat dog, right. They're still evolving so let us say that there are no moral prescriptions on them.

Over here where we are, is where some people would call the top of the food chain. But really we should consider ourselves outside of the food chain, since we don't have to eat other (sentient) living things to survive, and are no longer evolving by traditional Darwinian means (instead our culture and science are now evolving to drive progress).

So since we are no longer evolving, perhaps that is why we should have moral responsibilities and obligations? (in practice of course it is not black and white; as we become further and further outside of the shackles of evolution we should take on more and more morality). Or something.

[–]swormer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Who says we aren't still evolving? Our lives are so insignificantly short we can't possibly witness or understand the evolution that is occurring in our own species.

[–]linkns86 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (24子コメント)

This is simply dishonest. No one is saying that we should ignore human suffering and focus on animal suffering instead. Not eating meat is not some huge undertaking to which we must commit hours out of our days. It's just something we don't do. It's about as easy as not holding slaves or not committing rape.

Oddly enough, it seems that one does not have to seriously adjust their diet or worry about their nutritional intake while not raping and holding slaves. They don't have to take special supplements. They don't have to buy more expensive foods. It's almost like your analogy is incorrect, and it would be a huge undertaking. Ironically, it would be most difficult for the least advantaged that cannot afford expressive health-food/vegan products.

So, to drive the point home. Poor people would have health problems from not eating meat. Poor people would not have health problems from raping or holding slaves. Therefore the former is not 'about as easy' as the latter.

More fun! We have limited time and interests on earth. We value somethings at the exclusion of others necessarily. Focusing on animal rights, as opposed to human rights, does implicitly prioritize them. Perhaps someone should ask PETA why all that time and energy on animal rights is not better spent on human rights?

[–]sguntun 9ポイント10ポイント  (21子コメント)

Oddly enough, it seems that one does not have to seriously adjust their diet or worry about their nutritional intake while not raping and holding slaves. They don't have to take special supplements. They don't have to buy more expensive foods. It's almost like your analogy is incorrect, and it would be a huge undertaking. Ironically, it would be most difficult for the least advantaged that cannot afford expressive health-food/vegan products.

You're drastically overestimating the work that goes into eating vegetarian or vegan. If you're a vegetarian I don't think you need to supplement at all, and if you're a vegan supplementing is cheap and easy. As long as you have access to a grocery store, there's no reason that it should be more expensive or more inconvenient to eat vegetarian or vegan. If you live in a food desert or something like that, then you're probably not going to be able to give up meat. But that's not exactly a typical circumstance.

Poor people would have health problems from not eating meat.

This is not true.

More fun! We have limited time and interests on earth. We value somethings at the exclusion of others necessarily. Focusing on animal rights, as opposed to human rights, does implicitly prioritize them. Perhaps someone should ask PETA why all that time and energy on animal rights is not better spent on human rights?

Well, maybe it's better to be an activist for Doctors Without Borders than for PETA. That's a defensible position, and you might have an interesting argument for it. But the linked paper was not about the best cause to be an activist for, but whether we have moral reasons not to eat meat. So by all means, go ahead and ask PETA why they don't spend their time fighting for human rights, but don't act like that has anything to do with the arguments in the linked paper or the arguments I made in response to it.

[–]linkns86 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (20子コメント)

You're drastically overestimating the work that goes into eating vegetarian or vegan. If you're a vegetarian I don't think you need to supplement at all, and if you're a vegan supplementing is cheap and easy. As long as you have access to a grocery store, there's no reason that it should be more expensive or more inconvenient to eat vegetarian or vegan. If you live in a food desert or something like that, then you're probably not going to be able to give up meat. But that's not exactly a typical circumstance.

It's been my experience that vegans/vegetarians vastly overstate the 'cheapness' and easy of their diet. In most rural places, chain grocery stores are pretty much all you have (if you're on a budget, this is all you have too). Healthy alternatives are never cheaper than sale items. Couple this with longer food preparation times, as well as the need to be closely aware of different parts of your diet and you've eliminate a good bit of the population. If you'd like to point me to a study or survey not done by an animal rights group regarding the costliness of this, I'd gladly look at it.

Well, maybe it's better to be an activist for Doctors Without Borders than for PETA. That's a defensible position, and you might have an interesting argument for it. But the linked paper was not about the best cause to be an activist for, but whether we have moral reasons not to eat meat. So by all means, go ahead and ask PETA why they don't spend their time fighting for human rights, but don't act like that has anything to do with the arguments in the linked paper or the arguments I made in response to it.

I never acted like it did. This was squarely directed at your claim that,

No one is saying that we should ignore human suffering and focus on animal suffering instead

In fact, that preference is bared out in the actions of countless animal rights organizations.

[–]sguntun 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's been my experience that vegans/vegetarians vastly overstate the 'cheapness' and easy of their diet.

And it's been my experience that non-vegans/non-vegetarians vastly overstate the expensiveness and inconvenience of vegan/vegetarian diets. Unfortunately it doesn't seem that either of us has more than anecdotes to go on.

If you'd like to point me to a study or survey not done by an animal rights group regarding the costliness of this, I'd gladly look at it.

I don't have any such study, but I too would be interested in seeing one if anyone reading this thread knows of any.

I never acted like it did. This was squarely directed at your claim that,

No one is saying that we should ignore human suffering and focus on animal suffering instead

In fact, that preference is bared out in the actions of countless animal rights organizations.

I see. Perhaps I was unclear. My point was this: the author of the linked article seems to suggest that giving up meat would be an example of ignoring human suffering and focusing on animal suffering instead. But this is false, and no compelling argument for vegetarianism will tell us to ignore human suffering and focus on animal suffering instead. It may be that some people in the world really do hold the view that we should ignore human suffering and focus on animal suffering instead, but as the arguments for vegetarianism don't commit us to such a view, the fact that those people exist is irrelevant.

Moreover, I don't think it's fair to attribute that position to PETA members and other activists for animal causes. It might be fair to say that in their own lives, they prioritize animal suffering over human suffering, but that's not the same as arguing that we all should prioritize animal suffering over human suffering, any more than NBA players are committed to the position that we should stop playing football so we can play basketball instead.

[–]linkns86 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

But this is false, and no compelling argument for vegetarianism will tell us to ignore human suffering and focus on animal suffering instead.

Peter Singer and others have famously argued that some human suffering is far less important than some animal suffering (i.e. killing a baby vs. killing a cow). He seems to be taken pretty seriously by the animal rights crowd.

It might be fair to say that in their own lives, they prioritize animal suffering over human suffering, but that's not the same as arguing that we all should prioritize animal suffering over human suffering, any more than NBA players are committed to the position that we should stop playing football so we can play basketball instead.

I think the analogy is a little problematic. The skill at work in one sport are not always transferable to another, and in any case the preference between the two isn't morally important. In contrast, PETA and others invest a great deal of time and activism into animal rights that could otherwise be spend preventing something like the genital mutilation of women in Africa. I think a moderate concern for the well-being of animals isn't misplaced- but the vast investments of time and money spent on these projects comes at a huge expense to other human rights causes. Moreover, the difference is morally important in this case (I think).

[–]tomatopuncher 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Peter Singer and others have famously argued that some human suffering is far less important than some animal suffering (i.e. killing a baby vs. killing a cow).

If you could provide citation of that I would be glad to see it. I have seen Singer compare them when arguing about wethervlower mental capabilities makes it morally permissible to eat any animal.

PETA and others invest a great deal of time and activism into animal rights that could otherwise be spend preventing something like the genital mutilation of women in Africa.

Well PETA still tries to make the world better, the vast majority of people dont.

[–]yourlycantbsrs 2ポイント3ポイント  (15子コメント)

Could you tell me how much 5+ lb bags of rice and beans would cost in a rural place?

[–]linkns86 0ポイント1ポイント  (14子コメント)

Do you only eat rice and beans every day?

[–]yourlycantbsrs 3ポイント4ポイント  (13子コメント)

No. Could you answer my question now that I've answered yours?

[–]linkns86 0ポイント1ポイント  (12子コメント)

I don't feel the need to answer irrelevant questions.

[–]yourlycantbsrs 1ポイント2ポイント  (11子コメント)

Huh, it seems like a relevant question since you're trying to argue the price angle.

Why don't you think it's relevant?

[–]linkns86 0ポイント1ポイント  (10子コメント)

Because the price of those things isn't an accurate representation of the price of a vegan diet.

[–]TrottingTortoise 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yea it's not exactly like oats, rice, beans etc are super cheap and available everywhere.

[–]LaoTzusGymShoes 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

So, to drive the point home. Poor people would have health problems from not eating meat. Poor people would not have health problems from raping or holding slaves. Therefore the former is not 'about as easy' as the latter.

This implies that the effects on a person's health are the only things that would contribute to the difficulty of something, which is absurd.

[–]linkns86 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

This implies that the effects on a person's health are the only things that would contribute to the difficulty of something, which is absurd.

Nope. It's just a good example.

[–]UmamiSalami 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't have current figures at hand but I doubt that even a majority of moral philosophers today are utilitarian.

Hmm hmm hmm. There are very few positions which are held by the majority of philosophers. No moral system is held by even close to a majority of philosophers. This isn't a very good objection.

Why then is human-caused suffering worse than the suffering animals endure in the wild?

Oh, it's no worse. Animals in the wild live very terrible lives. It's a significant cause for concern and something that one day we might be able to address. None of this makes meat okay, of course. I'm not sure why the author thinks this is relevant.

Yet, many utilitarians including Singer seem indifferent to the suffering of wild animals

Well then the author should get to know some more utilitarians. Singer believes that it is impractical to interfere with ecosystems but in principle would be good to eliminate wild animal suffering. Others are more optimistic.

http://foundational-research.org/publications/importance-of-wild-animal-suffering/

http://www.animalcharityevaluators.org/research/foundational-research/wild-animal-suffering/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aa6g1y4l8I

http://reducing-suffering.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/LifeInTheWild_May2015.pdf

The planting and harvesting of crops destroys massive numbers of sentient creatures and their habitats. How much destruction and how this compares to the destruction and suffering of animals raised for meat is a matter of some controversy but there is some evidence that the carnage from factory plant-farming is enormous. Of course, these are the unintended consequences of actions that seem benign, but remember, according to utilitarianism, intentions don't matter, only outcomes. If all suffering is equal then the suffering of wild animals as the result of human practices matters as well. When it comes to securing our food supply there are no clean hands and no painless policies.

Like the issue of wild animal suffering, it's unclear how the author expects to translate this into an argument for the consumption of meat. Meat consumption requires more plant farming than direct plant consumption, plain and simple.

It is not at all clear how to evaluate the badness of animal suffering. Obviously animals don't like pain and try to avoid death. But pain suffered without the explicit memory of it or reflective doubts about its meaning seems less "painful" than human pain which has these psychological aspects. Of course all of this is more or less speculation. We don't know enough about animal psychology to make firm generalizations about the meaning of their experience. But this applies to the utilitarian as well. From the fact that animals experience pain, Singer infers they have interests. But until we have a clearer understanding of animal psychology it isn't obvious what kind of interests animals have aside from a desire to survive. Yet, it is the fate of all animals to die; how much weight to assign the costs of early death for a cow depends on what it is like to be a cow—and we really don't know much about that. If animals have interests independently of their awareness of those interests, then we would be forced to admit that plants have interests as well. Should we refrain from eating plants? Clearly we are in the realm of the absurd.

The problem is that animals clearly have interests other than merely to survive. It is pretty obvious that animals have interests to avoid pain rather than endure it, to eat rather than starve, etc. And it takes some pretty big and unconvincing assumptions to say that these desires lack phenomenal content. The author appears to be using a different definition of "interests" than Singer to make his own conclusion.

Also, devaluing animal suffering relative to humans or raising broad skepticism doesn't get anyone very far when you do the math because the numbers and scope of animal slaughter vastly exceed transient culinary pleasure.

[–]irontideΦ[M] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

/r/badphilosophy is that way, /r/plantstho is to your left, and /r/badneuroscience is down the hall past the restrooms on your right.

The fact that this argument has the same conclusion as some silly ones doesn't make it silly--there is a principled and not obviously incorrect piece of reasoning presented here towards that conclusion. Your response is immoderate--try to err on the side of civility, please.

[–]PSMF_Canuck -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

Seems to me the first challenge is convincing me that I need to defend my meat-eating habit.

Because I don't feel any need or compulsion to do so.

[–]sguntun 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

Well, there are a number of not obviously wrong arguments against eating meat. If any of those arguments succeed, then you're not justified in eating meat. So if you are justified in eating meat, none of those arguments succeed. So if you think that you're justified in eating meat, you're committed to thinking that none of those arguments succeed, which means you should be able to tell us why they don't succeed.

[–]PSMF_Canuck 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Just as I don't need someone else's justification to breath, I don't need someone else's justification to eat meat.

This is practicing logic in a vacuum....

[–]sguntun 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

I mean, in some sense it's obviously true that you don't need justification for anything you do. If you want to murder people, no sound argument is going to end with the conclusion "Actually, you don't murder people." So if you're comfortable behaving in a way that's not ethically justified, then no ethical arguments are going to persuade you to do anything you don't want to do. But this is just a matter of your own psychology, and has no relevance to the genuine philosophical question of whether any given behavior is morally permissible.

This is practicing logic in a vacuum....

I don't know what you mean.

[–]PSMF_Canuck 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

So if you're comfortable behaving in a way that's not ethically justified

It goes beyond that.

It isn't possible to ethically justify or not-justify the eating of meat. It's like trying to ethically justify or not-justify falling when you step off a building...

[–]sguntun 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

It isn't possible to ethically justify or not-justify the eating of meat.

Maybe so, but you haven't offered any reasons at all to believe this, and it flies in the face of common sense. Why should I believe that?

It's like trying to ethically justify or not-justify falling when you step off a building...

How on earth is that supposed to be analogous to eating meat? Presumably our involuntary actions can't be justified or unjustified precisely because they're involuntary--but eating meat is not involuntary.

[–]PSMF_Canuck 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Why should I believe that?

I'm not asking you to - I'm telling you why I'm not going to believe you.

eating meat is not involuntary.

That's not a provable claim.

[–]sguntun 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why should I believe that?

I'm not asking you to

At least when discussing philosophy (but in most other contexts too, at least contexts that aren't just bullshitting with your friends), we normally mean for our assertions to carry some rational weight. This means that if we say things, we endorse that they're true, and that other people have reasons to believe them. If you don't mean for your assertions to carry any rational weight, then that's fine, but you might not get very much out of discussing philosophy (or out of having any conversation more substantive than bullshitting with friends).

I'm telling you why I'm not going to believe you.

Sure, but you haven't offered any reason not to believe me, so the mere psychological fact that you won't believe me isn't all that interesting to me.

eating meat is not involuntary.

That's not a provable claim.

What? How could it be involuntary? It's not like a reflex where someone taps your knee in the right place and you automatically grab a burger (or if it is like that for you, you should consult a doctor, not a philosopher). We know when we're doing something voluntarily.

[–]AlwaysBeNice -3ポイント-2ポイント  (114子コメント)

Killing an animal for it's meat is that bad (when done in moderation) but treating it like absolute shit while it's still alive is, which is what is happening on a big big scale.

Research where you meat comes from folks.

[–]JRL2404 8ポイント9ポイント  (112子コメント)

I'm assuming you meant "is not that bad (when done in moderation)".

Why not?

Can we kill a human for their meat? If not, why can we kill an animal for their meat?

[–]neverelax 1ポイント2ポイント  (45子コメント)

Because we are holier than thou, and eating our own species is below us. When you think about it, another person has everything your body needs. I'm not suggesting we start cannibalizing each other, it just seems like an awful waste of proteins, tailored enzymes to go to rot in the ground. Soylent Green me please!

When I die, I want my death to have some meaning, as my life has. I plan on donating all organs and tissue to try to help as many people as possible. I wouldn't have a problem with being eaten after I had passed on, I would prefer to be eaten after I'm done with my life.

I don't blame myself for eating meat any more than I blame the lion for eating a gazelle. And if it comes to pass that one day I am dumb enough to get myself in a situation where I get eaten by a lion, I would only blame myself and never hold it against the predator.

[–]sguntun 4ポイント5ポイント  (30子コメント)

When I die, I want my death to have some meaning, as my life has. I plan on donating all organs and tissue to try to help as many people as possible. I wouldn't have a problem with being eaten after I had passed on, I would prefer to be eaten after I'm done with my life.

Yes, but presumably you would still think that I was doing something wrong if before you had "passed on," I killed and ate you. /u/JRL2404's question was "Can we kill a human for their meat," and you haven't addressed that at all here, unless you really mean (as your first paragraph seems to suggest) that that would be perfectly acceptable.

I don't blame myself for eating meat any more than I blame the lion for eating a gazelle. And if it comes to pass that one day I am dumb enough to get myself in a situation where I get eaten by a lion, I would only blame myself and never hold it against the predator.

No one is suggesting that we should hold lions morally responsible for the gazelles they kill. This is because, unlike humans, lions are generally not taken to be moral agents that are capable of comprehending right and wrong (and also because, unlike humans, lions need to eat meat to survive).

[–]neverelax 0ポイント1ポイント  (29子コメント)

Yes, but presumably you would still think that I was doing something wrong if before you had "passed on," I killed and ate you. /u/JRL2404's question was "Can we kill a human for their meat," and you haven't addressed that at all here, unless you really mean (as your first paragraph seems to suggest) that that would be perfectly acceptable.

I didn't say that I thought you were doing something wrong to eat me before I had passed on, just that I would prefer not to be eaten until after I'm done with my body. It would be inconvenient for me.

No one is suggesting that we should hold lions morally responsible for the gazelles they kill. This is because lions are generally not taken to be moral agents that are capable of comprehending right and wrong.

Should I make a distinction? If I need to eat something to live is it right or wrong that I eat? Why not hold the lion responsible (I don't) if you are going to hold me responsible. What is the difference?

[–]sguntun 3ポイント4ポイント  (13子コメント)

I didn't say that I thought you were doing something wrong to eat me before I had passed on, just that I would prefer not to be eaten until after I'm done with my body.

I know you didn't say that you thought I'd be doing something wrong if I killed you and ate you (and I also know that you kind of implied the opposite), but I still have to imagine that you do think I'd be doing something wrong if I killed you and ate you. To be clear, are you now saying explicitly that, despite your preferences to the contrary, I wouldn't be doing anything wrong if I killed you and ate you?

Should I make a distinction? If I need to eat something to live is it right or wrong that I eat? Why not hold the lion responsible if you are going to hold me responsible. What is the difference?

I edited my post a little bit while you were replying. The final paragraph now reads as follows:

No one is suggesting that we should hold lions morally responsible for the gazelles they kill. This is because, unlike humans, lions are generally not taken to be moral agents that are capable of comprehending right and wrong (and also because, unlike humans, lions need to eat meat to survive).

Hopefully this makes it clear that yes, you should "make a distinction." One difference between you and the lion is that you, unlike the lion, are capable of moral reasoning. Another difference is that you, unlike the lion, can survive and be healthy without meat. If lions could survive and be healthy without meat and were also capable of moral reasoning, then lions would be morally responsible for the gazelles they killed. As it is, though, you're going to have to hold yourself to different standard than you hold lions.

[–]neverelax 0ポイント1ポイント  (12子コメント)

No one is suggesting that we should hold lions morally responsible for the gazelles they kill. This is because, unlike humans, lions are generally not taken to be moral agents that are capable of comprehending right and wrong (and also because, unlike humans, lions need to eat meat to survive).

We don't? The nutrient composition of meat has not been adequately approximated by alternatives from what I have seen. Creatine, Carnosine, are only found in meat DHA and EPA are the active forms of Omega-3 in the human body and found primarily in animal foods. The body is inefficient at converting ALA (the plant form of Omega-3) to the active forms. I'm not convinced that vegetarianism is healthy and personally haven't known any to live without some deficiency or health problems as a result. Perhaps what you are saying is that if we found a way to synthesize a diet that reasonably approximated a natural one, we would be bound morality to adhere to it.

How have you come to the conclusion that the lion is not capable of moral reasoning? Do we have any way of knowing this? I mean, I have my doubts, I've seen cats play with their food and kill for sport. But I'm not convinced we can make the call being outside of the cat's mind. Perhaps the lion is capable of moral reasoning, but chooses to go against it, much the same that we are aware that the state of animal rights is wrong, and yet we choose to keep things the way they are, ignore it, distract ourselves with other details, convince ourselves that we are not animals and separate from nature, because it is inconvenient for us to choose against what we prefer.

(an applicable adage) Everyone likes a good steak, but no one wants to look the cow in the eye.

[–]sguntun 4ポイント5ポイント  (11子コメント)

I wouldn't be doing anything wrong if I killed you and ate you?

For food, no. For sport, yes.

This is such a wildly implausible position that I frankly can't believe you're being sincere here. If hunting you for sport isn't okay, why should hunting you for food be any different? It's not like I need to eat you or I'll die.

We don't?

No, we don't need meat to survive. This is the consensus of every major dietetic organization. Here's a list of links that gets thrown around a lot:

American Dietetic Association

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.

Dietitians of Canada

A well planned vegan diet can meet all of these needs. It is safe and healthy for pregnant and breastfeeding women, babies, children, teens and seniors.

The British National Health Service

With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.

The British Nutrition Foundation

A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.

The Dietitians Association of Australia

Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. They differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are usually consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.

The United States Department of Agriculture

Vegetarian diets (see context) can meet all the recommendations for nutrients. The key is to consume a variety of foods and the right amount of foods to meet your calorie needs. Follow the food group recommendations for your age, sex, and activity level to get the right amount of food and the variety of foods needed for nutrient adequacy. Nutrients that vegetarians may need to focus on include protein, iron, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12.

The National Health and Medical Research Council

Alternatives to animal foods include nuts, seeds, legumes, beans and tofu. For all Australians, these foods increase dietary variety and can provide a valuable, affordable source of protein and other nutrients found in meats. These foods are also particularly important for those who follow vegetarian or vegan dietary patterns. Australians following a vegetarian diet can still meet nutrient requirements if energy needs are met and the appropriate number and variety of serves from the Five Food Groups are eaten throughout the day. For those eating a vegan diet, supplementation of B12 is recommended.

The Mayo Clinic

A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.

The Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada

Vegetarian diets (see context) can provide all the nutrients you need at any age, as well as some additional health benefits.

Harvard Medical School

Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.

How have you come to the conclusion that the lion is not capable of moral reasoning? Do we have any way of knowing this?

One kind of answer is that moral reasoning seems to require language, which lions don't have. Another kind of answer is just to ask what could possibly suggest to you that lions are capable of moral reasoning, because that position is absurd on the face of it.

More importantly, it's not clear why it would even be valuable for your position if we concluded that lions were capable of moral reasoning (and again, they're not, and it's insane to act like they are). Even ignoring the point that lions, unlike humans, need to eat meat to survive, why would it matter if lions were morally responsible for killing gazelles? It would certainly be strange if we discovered that they were, but it would mean nothing more than that lions were behaving immorally whenever they killed gazelles. Just because some people behave immorally doesn't mean it's okay to behave immorally.

[–]neverelax 0ポイント1ポイント  (10子コメント)

This is the consensus

This is news to me and in my experience vegetarianism hasn't gone well for the people I know who have tried it, though I have to admit there could be other factors that affected their health following their conversion to a meatless diet.

This is such a wildly implausible position that I frankly can't believe you're being sincere here.

We have conventional laws that apply here which would make things difficult for you to accomplish this. Of course I meant that if you needed meat protein to survive (and apparently I am wrong about that) and I was the only convenient source, then I wouldn't blame you for eating me, no. If push came to shove, I would eat you.

Another kind of answer is just to ask what could possibly suggest to you that lions are capable of moral reasoning, because that position is absurd on the face of it.

Well, as outsiders to the big cat experience we are really just guessing aren't we? If we are capable of it, why wouldn't a highly evolved predator like a lion, even if rudimentary.

but it would mean nothing more than that lions were behaving immorally whenever they killed gazelles.

..I guess where I am going with that is that I think there are times when acting out of instinct is natural and distinct from moral scrutiny. If it came to it and you were starving to death, would your natural urge to eat override your sense of reason, I don't know, I guess I'm reaching too far here. We aren't talking about life or death, we are talking about what we eat when we eat. I don't know. I think it seems odd that just because we are in this privileged position of being on the top of the food chain that we are subject to some pretty harsh rules that abstract us from nature. When I consider that cats share 90% of our DNA, it seems like such a small step between us and the lion, but in under this moral spotlight it's enormous.

[–]sguntun 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Of course I meant that if you needed protein to survive (and apparently I am wrong about that) and I was the only convenient source, then I wouldn't blame you for eating me, no.

Ah, I see. I think most people will agree that if you need to eat something out of nutritional necessity, you're probably not doing anything wrong by eating it. It just turns out that according to the relevant experts, this doesn't apply to humans eating meat, at least in normal cases.

Well, as outsiders to the big cat experience we are really just guessing aren't we? If we are capable of it, why wouldn't a highly evolved predator like a lion, even if rudimentary.

We're really a lot more intelligent than lions. Again, lions don't have language, and it's hard for me to imagine how something could be intelligent enough for moral reasoning but not intelligent enough for language. I suppose there is some sense in which we're just guessing that lions don't have the capacity for moral reasoning, but it's the same sense in which we're just guessing that dogs dogs don't have the capacity for judging the beauty of fine art.

..I guess where I am going with that is that I think there are times when acting out of instinct is natural and distinct from moral scrutiny. Can we be morally responsible for 100% of what we do?

Being morally responsible for something is not the same as making the moral choice. Moral agents are morally responsible for everything they do (barring cases like hypnotism or coercion), including the immoral things acts they perform--we get to call those acts immoral precisely because the person who performed them was morally responsible for them. And I'm not exactly sure what the appeal to instinct is supposed to do here: it's kind of the point of being a moral agent that we don't get to shrug our shoulders and say hey, it's just instinct, what are you going to do. If we were allowed to play the instinct card as an exemption to moral scrutiny, couldn't we use it to allow ourselves to rape just as well as we could use it to allow ourselves to eat meat? I assume you don't think that it's ever okay to rape anyone, even if our instincts tell us to, so I don't think this line of argument will be successful.

On a different note than instinct, some philosophers have argued that we shouldn't strive to be morally perfect, because there are other virtues to strive for that compete with morality. Susan Wolf's "Moral Saints" is probably the classic text here. But even if Wolf is right, it doesn't seem to me that being a vegetarian will entail the negative traits that Wolf associates with moral saints, so I don't think that kind of approach would be very helpful to you here either.

[–]JRL2404 1ポイント2ポイント  (14子コメント)

Should I make a distinction?

Yes. Humans do not require meat for nutrition. Lions do.

If I need to eat something to live is it right or wrong that I eat?

If I need to be a professional basketball player in the NBA in order to live, is it right or wrong that I play basketball?

That's another if-then question with a false antecedent and an irrelevant consequent.

More accurate is, "Since I don't need to eat meat to live, is it right or wrong that I eat meat?"

I say "wrong", and I'm still waiting for you to defend "right".

[–]TasedBro 0ポイント1ポイント  (13子コメント)

Yes. Humans do not require meat for nutrition. Lions do.

Wow. You are presumptuous one. Is this a fact? Like really how do you know? I wager, lions could easily live without meat.

More accurate is, "Since I don't need to eat meat to live, is it right or wrong that I eat meat?" I say "wrong", and I'm still waiting for you to defend "right".

Follow your logic. If you can survive by consuming purified nutrients then eating plants is "wrong". Why is eating plants "right"? You are still destroying life when you do.

[–]JRL2404 0ポイント1ポイント  (12子コメント)

Wow. You are presumptuous one.

Well, I've never heard that word before. Could you look it up for me?

Is this a fact?

Yes.

Unless aren't facts aren't real. Would you wager that facts are real? Am I real? Are you real?

I wager, lions could easily live without eat.

I wager they can't live easily without "eat".

Without meat on the other hand, I wager that unless we underwent a massive campaign to synthesize whatever nutrients they get from meat that they need as carnivorous cats they couldn't live easily. At all. And maybe this campaign wouldn't be successful at all. I'm not a nutritionist of a biologist or a chemist.

Follow your logic. If you can survive by consuming purified nutrients then eating plants is "wrong". Why is eating plants "right"? You are still destroying life went you do.

I'm following!

Well, eating a vegan diet requires less plants to die than a meat or vegetarian diet, for one.

For two, plants aren't sentient! And I don't think non-sentient things are morally relevant.

[–]TasedBro 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

Well, I've never heard that word before. Could you look it up for me?

Nah...

Well, eating a vegan diet requires less plants to die than a meat or vegetarian diet, for one.

So killing life is ok with you then?

For two, plants aren't sentient! And I don't think non-sentient things are morally relevant.

How do you know plants are not sentient?

[–]JRL2404 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

So killing life is ok with you then?

Yes.

What's not okay with me is suffering and killing sentient creatures who have a preference to live. A vegan diet minimizes these two things.

How do you know plants are not sentient?

How do we know anything?

There is no evidence that plants are sentient. There is overwhelming evidence humans are.

[–]TasedBro 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

plants aren't sentient! And I don't think non-sentient things are morally relevant.

So you arbitrarily draw the line at sentience. Others draw the line at humane treatment.

You think it is morally superior to not eat animals. Fine. Others would argue it is more morally superior to not eat insects. Others would say to not cut trees. And so it goes.

[–]JRL2404 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Others would argue it is more morally superior to not eat insects. Others would say to not cut trees. And so it goes.

As I've learned from talking to you, others might argue a variety of strange positions. This doesn't mean anything about whether they are right or wrong.

Question. Answer.

[–]JRL2404 0ポイント1ポイント  (13子コメント)

When I die, I want my death to have some meaning, as my life has. I plan on donating all organs and tissue to try to help as many people as possible. I wouldn't have a problem with being eaten after I had passed on, I would prefer to be eaten after I'm done with my life.

Me too.

I've set up a dichotomy between how we treat animals and humans. But your idea of human use falsifies the dichotomy.

The animal side of the dichotomy isn't eating the flesh of animals after they've passed on (a practice which I have no moral objection to), what you imagined would be good to do with humans.

It's actually raising animals and specifically breeding them to be meat machines who can hardly walk due to their overload of muscle and are constantly hungry thereby, keeping them in horrendous conditions that would horrify anyone, mutilating their bodies without anesthesia, and slaughtering them when they're still children of their species.

On the other side, we generally believe that as much as is possible humans should be treated with kindness during their conscious lives, kept with their families and companions, allowed to pursue their interests, and even have their lives extended via medicine, maximization of health and fitness, and psychological peace and well-being.

So my question is: should we treat humans the way we currently treat animals in our quest for meat? Or, is there some reason why animals should be treated so differently?

Or, perhaps most compellingly, maybe we should seek to maximize animal well-being the same way we do with humans?

[–]neverelax -1ポイント0ポイント  (12子コメント)

Or, is there some reason why animals should be treated so differently?

I don't see the difference between us and other animals, other than language and advanced technology.. I don't think that either of those things give us any rights over that of animals, just an advantage.

[–]JRL2404 -1ポイント0ポイント  (11子コメント)

We do indeed have an advantage.

I don't think might makes right, and seemingly neither do you, so do you think that we should strive to treat animals the way we treat humans?

[–]neverelax 0ポイント1ポイント  (10子コメント)

Certainly. Again, I don't see a distinction. We are animals.

[–]JRL2404 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

So then we should stop eating meat?

[–]neverelax 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

No, we should start eating humans. If we ate processed meat from dead humans, we could stop eating animals harvested from awful conditions. We could also start eating insects.. There's tons of perfectly good meat protein there going to waste.

[–]JRL2404 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

I agree, eating meat from dead humans and insects would definitely both be morally acceptable alternatives.

Do you currently eat animal meat?

[–]diet_dr_kelp 0ポイント1ポイント  (56子コメント)

Because the animals which we eat are productive insofar as they produce edible, healthy and tasty meat.

[–]JRL2404 1ポイント2ポイント  (51子コメント)

Humans also produce meat which is edible, as healthy as other mammals', and certainly tasty provided you havent been culturally conditioned otherwise or have been told it is of another mammal.

My question therefore remains totally unanswered.

[–]TasedBro 0ポイント1ポイント  (36子コメント)

Perhaps once people have had a taste people would go on killing each other creating all sorts of revenge and fucked up situations which would lead to the breakdown of society, war, tribalism and eventually the fall of civilizations. Just perhaps.

[–]JRL2404 1ポイント2ポイント  (35子コメント)

So maybe we can't eat meat of other humans as a permanent practice because of a long term consequence like you named. Okay, fine.

Suppose instead you can do the following sequence of actions. You can adopt a human as an infant from total recluses who both died immediately thereafter. You raise it its whole life in chains in your basement. You also are sure to castrate it without anesthesia as the puberty can create a problem for its temparament. Then at the tender age of 15, you slice its throat with a knife, bleed it out, and enjoy your dinner with a BBQ sauce.

Or you can do the same with an animal, say a cow.

My question is: is the first actually not acceptable, but the second acceptable? Are they both unacceptable or both acceptable? (and note I'm not asking whether one is worse, I'm asking whether one is acceptable/permissible but the other isn't)

And if one is acceptable but the other isn't, why?

[–]TasedBro 0ポイント1ポイント  (34子コメント)

Just to clarify, by "first" you mean the human eating scenario and "second" you mean the animal eating scenario?

[–]JRL2404 1ポイント2ポイント  (33子コメント)

Yes.

[–]TasedBro -1ポイント0ポイント  (32子コメント)

Can we say that this human killing is not a one off? As in you kill a human in special occasions or something? Because a one off does not make it such a big deal -- can't believe what I am saying!!! :)

[–]JRL2404 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm confused. Explain further?

[–]JRL2404 1ポイント2ポイント  (30子コメント)

Please do think and reply.

And sincere thanks for committing your time to thinking about it and challenging yourself and me. That's a good thing to do.

[–]diet_dr_kelp 0ポイント1ポイント  (13子コメント)

Because they are much more productive than the farm animals, to do so would therefore be extremely destructive to society as a whole.

[–]JRL2404 0ポイント1ポイント  (12子コメント)

Suppose we could easily produce more humans through selective breeding of a particular race.

So we keep all the humans that are currently productive, but make new ones.

I now put forward again the same question.

[–]diet_dr_kelp 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

I don't think so because that race's productivity is going completely to waste when we have farm animals to eat.

[–]JRL2404 0ポイント1ポイント  (10子コメント)

Okay. Consider the severely mentally handicapped. They are about as productive as animals, some significantly less so.

Same question.

[–]diet_dr_kelp 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

Don't have any particular objections to this, although humans don't tend to eat each other anyway except in extremely grim circumstances so I still don't think it would happen. Why would we go through the trouble of producing a shitload of mentally retarded people to eat (the meat, by the way, probably would not be nearly as healthy or tasty) when farm animals are much easier? It takes a fuckload more resources and time to raise the mentally handicapped.

[–]JRL2404 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

So just to be clear, you have no ethical objection to raising mentally handicapped people for slaughter, only practical concerns like their taste and the difficulty of raising them?

[–]sguntun 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

You're ignoring the question that was asked: "Can we kill a human for their meat? If not, why can we kill an animal for their meat?" Supposing that the humans we ate were "productive insofar as they produce edible, healthy and tasty meat," would we be doing nothing wrong by killing humans for their meat?

[–]TasedBro 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is this directed at me?

[–]sguntun 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, it was directed at /u/diet_dr_kelp, to whom I replied.

[–]diet_dr_kelp 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because they are much more productive than the farm animals, to do so would therefore be extremely destructive to society as a whole.

[–]AlwaysBeNice -1ポイント0ポイント  (8子コメント)

Because the animal wouldn't have had a life here otherwise.

[–]JRL2404 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

Same thing applies to a human that we have selectively bred to be slaughtered and eaten, doesn't it?

[–]AlwaysBeNice -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

Haha I've thought about that before. The problem is, humans need to have a loving caring parents to have a good life, so that would be the first challenge. They would also become aware of the fact that they exist to be eaten by the others, and that they have to face death because of that which would also not not give them a good life.

The point that I made doesn't really go for humans in context with the other point I made, which is that if you want to eat an animal it has to have had a good life.

[–]JRL2404 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

The problem is, humans need to have a loving caring parents to have a good life,

So do all mammals.

They would also become aware of the fact that they exist to be eaten by the others, and that they have to face death because of that which would also not not give them a good life.

We can prevent them from realizing this though. Simply don't teach them any language skills so their reasoning is permanently on par with toddlers. Or just use the severely mentally handicapped. They'd be able to figure out even less than what adult pigs can figure out.

The point that I made doesn't really go for humans in context with the other point I made, which is that if you want to eat an animal it has to have had a good life.

  1. Describe in detail what a good life is for a pig that ends with slaughter. Explain why this wouldn't be a good life for humans also.

  2. Animals in factory farms today (99% of the meat we eat) have horrible lives, and not good ones. You just said " if you want to eat an animal it has to have had a good life". Are you going to give up meat now?

[–]AlwaysBeNice -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

I never said animals didn't need to be in touch with their mother, that's part of treating the animal well.

You know what a good life is, why do I have to explain that? The pigs that live on organic farms here in Europe have had good lives.

It could potentially be a good life for humans, and if that was possible, that all the people involved are completely happy during that process, then I wouldn't see it as unethical (doubt that's possible in practice though). They have lived a happy life they couldn't have experienced otherwise.

I know they are not good ones. I never eat that meat, nor other animal products that were created inhumanely and I actually almost never eat ethical meat either (too pricey and bad global warming as well).

[–]JRL2404 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

> I know they are not good ones. I never eat that meat, nor other animal products that were created inhumanely and I actually almost never eat ethical meat either (too pricey and bad global warming as well).

Good for you! I mean that sincerely, that is the right thing to be doing.

> You know what a good life is, why do I have to explain that? The pigs that live on organic farms here in Europe have had good lives.

I don't know what that is. Name one such farm and their practices.

Haven't they selectively bred their pigs to be meat machines, with all the leg and mobility problems that creates? Don't they slaughter them at around 6 months? Don't the other pigs feel upset when a member of their social group disappears suddenly? How do they transport them to the slaughterhouse? Don't the pigs at the slaughterhouse not feel stressed as one by one, they disappear and hear screams from the other side of the wall and smell blood?

How have the organic farms you speak of solved these problems?

[–]AlwaysBeNice 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Thanks for your reponse. It really is and it's a shame so many people don't or don't know how bad it is.

Ok, you have raised some good points and to be fair I can't really answer you. It seems to be alright, just a quick search for such a farm in my country https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYvHXMQAY-s

But perhaps other organic farms are not that good even, and have parts that you mention that cause suffering.

There should be more research done to know these things more precisely, too bad humanity generally doesn't want to know.

[–]JRL2404 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

If you had a farm and you wanted to make it as ethical as possible, how would you even set about resolving the issue of disappearing family and social group members? I don't think that issue can be resolved.

It's impossible to have a factory farm with animals who have healthy social and family lives.