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lol takes no skill? (self.dotamasterrace)

ilikemenz が 投稿

If lol takes no skill, then why do two regions (China and Korea) dominate the western regions (NA and EU). The teams of the respective regions both practice 10 hrs a day, play for their job, their livelihood, but when they meet for tournaments, china and korea are generally farther ahead? If lol took no skill, how would there be such a gap between the regions?

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[–]dakkr 32ポイント33ポイント  (26子コメント)

Eating apples takes no skill, yet if someone practiced eating apples for 10 hours a day I can guarantee you they'd be better at it than the guy who just eats apples once a week. What's your point?

[–]#1 fister2dose 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

Nobody said it takes no skill but the strategic part of the game is almost nonexistent compared to dota. Lets face it after a certain point all you do is practice using your chimp the most efficiently again and again. It's like playing darts and trying to hit the middle again and again. The game has been dumbed down in tle sat couple of years that it involves no teamwork at all. All you do is make use of your personal skill and hope your team does the same and win the game. In dota you have to coordinate skills and play as a team not just do your job and hope for the better. I'm not sure if everything that i said makes sense, but for someone that played both games it should. Anyway my point is that chinese/korean train to have the best mechanics and also train way more efficiently, great individual players that together make a great team. Also they are more disciplined and don't act like they are the star of their teams

[–]ipiranga 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agree with darts analogy lol

[–]PotatorunnerAnna_the_potato 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can't really comment on LoP beyond the outrage LoP players feel towards Riot.

However, I will note that even the best Dota teams falter if their teamwork and shot-calling is weak. You can have mechanically skilled players but ultimately strategy wins out. I completely agree with this comment above me!

[–]Tryhard Trench Castermoartuba 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

Zzz boring troll. Bring in some actual funny ones.

But I like replying to trolls:

Shitting doesn't take skill, but the Japanese squatting toilets have made the eastern shitters the best and more cleanly executing shitters.

In terms of western shitters, just pinching that roll of quarters off may get the job done, but its messy and doesn't always work out. Of course some westerners take shitting to a whole new level when they try and push out a mc Donalds loaf.

Of course overall no matter how good you are at getting the chocolate hot dog down the porcelain pipeline, its still easy and there's an obvious skillgap between east and west.

[–]WindWaifu Best WaifuCarryIgnite20 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ehm... Do you know what region lock is?

How many times have you played against chinese or korean players?

Ooh right, you can't since riot has region lock.

[–]Clockwork757 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

3/10 b8

[–]Learn2Buy 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

rofl this is the same retard who got mass downvoted in a CS:GO thread. https://np.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/3hb7g5/what_the_cs_developers_did_better_than_dota/cu65its?context=5

[–]foobardota 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

Playing LoL is like bring in elementary School. There are some kids better at eating glue and cutting themselves with their scissors than others. All while some teacher is screaming at you that this is not how it is supposed to work and that they have everything planned out for you.

Dota is like engineering at university. Some people are good at electrical engineering, some are good at mechanical engineering, etc. All are heavily focused on their work and are trying to make the best out of the physical limits. Everyone is free to to do what they want but only some stuff is useful while the other might work in some cases.

[–]Tryhard Trench Castermoartuba 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

We all know ee is better though cuz fuck fluid dynamics right?

[–]LinesWithRobFord -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

WHAT??? WE NEVER DID FLUID DYNAMICSSSSSSSSSSSS

[–]xXCrashTXx -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nice post [+1]

[–]Aflimacon 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Are you implying that people are more skilled because they live in China or Korea? Since you say they practice similar amounts, but China and Korea make better players/teams.

Anyway, the reason NA and EU are so far behind is the lack of international competitions to play at due to Riot's locked-down system that has them playing mostly bo1s against other terrible NA and EU teams. That won't help you learn at all.

[–]Aye OhMr-Irrelevant- 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Anyway, the reason NA and EU are so far behind is the lack of international competitions to play at due to Riot's locked-down system that has them playing mostly bo1s against other terrible NA and EU teams. That won't help you learn at all.

Yet we can go back to Season 2 when the format was basically the exact same as Dota2 in terms of large tournaments being hosted. You saw the exact thing happen where Koreans were better than NA/EU because they played the game differently. During this time lane swapping became a thing, the fast push was introduced by Korean teams, etc. You even had Western teams playing in OGn or practicing in Korea during this time. CLG EU actually made it to the finals of ogn summer and brought Azubu (the 2nd place team at worlds that year) to a best of 5.

The reason Korea is currently better than NA is that NA is smaller (twice as many ranked players in Korea than NA despite being smaller) the infrastructure for internet is better and teams play like actual teams. You have subs, you have coaches that understand what the team needs, and you also have sister teams you can scrim against.

[–]Balanarhehaaw 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

because they're asians ? kappa

[–]Tryhard Trench Castermoartuba 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Man wtf. This guy plays league and csgo. Goddamnit more evidence of plebs infecting other games not in the arts genre that I actually like -.-

[–]snailygoat 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Region locking tournaments and servers as well as Eastern teams taking it much more seriously than NA in Lol

That's pretty much it.

[–]450925 0ポイント1ポイント  (12子コメント)

So you're saying that NA and EU regions are just less skilled than China and Korea?

Because practicing something over and over again is not the same as being skilled at it.

[–]ilikemenz[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

Because practicing something over and over again is not the same as being skilled at it.

They're massively related. If you practice something over and over, there's a chance you now have the ability to that thing well, which is the actual definition of skill. Last year, SSW showed their skill as the best team in the world, but TSM still showed their skill as the best NA team in the world. Skill is generally relatively to other players in the region. No other team in all of NA, with all its 2.2 million ranked players (even more players don't play ranked) was as good as TSM. TSM is still a skilled lol team, but SSW is just better.

So you're saying that NA and EU regions are just less skilled than China and Korea?

Yes, of course I'm saying that. By skill, I'm encompassing everything that has to with league, including mechanics, teamwork, and strategy.

[–]450925 0ポイント1ポイント  (10子コメント)

skill skil/ noun noun: skill

the ability to do something well

Does not mention the requirement to repeat a process over and over again. Practice =/= skill.

You can have skill but not practicing will mean you won't win either. But it's much easier to train skilled people, than skill practiced people.

[–]ilikemenz[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

To be skilled you have to practice something over and over again, especially in a video game. That's why they're massively related. I NEVER said they were the same. There are very few people in the world who just wake up and are good at anything. It just rarely happens. The reason why eastern teams are more skilled is because of infrastructure in their respective countries, more money in esports, more population who plays ranked lol.

Also what are even trying to argue here? I see a bunch of people on this shit subreddit say lol takes no skill, when it's demonstrably not true, because there is a pattern of certain regions doing better than others. It's not luck, that asian teams win, it's the asian teams having more skill.

[–]450925 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

To be skilled you have to practice something over and over again, especially in a video game. That's why they're massively related.

Nope, not always the case... there are some people who are just born better at doing things. There's people who are naturally adapt to learning languages, instruments and games.

Look up the story of ANY child prodigy, they all start the same way... "Was just really good at..." and then with application of practice and training improved their ability of something. But they were already born with a skill in it.

Skill is not something that can be taught only improved upon if it's there.

And the reason this is pertinent, is that LoL doesn't require skill, it only requires rigid repitition of something over and over again to improve tiny actions per minute. And even then it's capped out because of skill cooldowns and limitations of the game engine and mechanics.

When you open up the engine and have more complex mechanics you improve the skill required to master it. Example, learning to play the base, takes less effort than to play lead guitar... purely because the base line is more constant and has less strings to deal with. But being a bass guitarist has a skill of it's own which is recognising rhythm, because the bass is all about keeping everyone else in timing. And that is something that is not easily taught to people, you either have rhythm or you don't in most cases. But really if there's anything that you'd consider "rhythm" for esports, it would be decision making.

[–]ilikemenz[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

Look up the story of ANY child prodigy, they all start the same way... "Was just really good at..."

I guess that's true. No one will reach a professional level of a sport without practice though. Though some people start at different places. It's not really important to the discussion though. There are people naturally good at video games in the west and east. It's not some racial skill like in wow or something, lol.

And the reason this is pertinent, is that LoL doesn't require skill, it only requires rigid repitition of something over and over again to improve tiny actions per minute. And even then it's capped out because of skill cooldowns and limitations of the game engine and mechanics.

This isn't close to a full understanding of how to play lol at a high level. There is a lot of decision making involved in lol.

In lol, there is shotcalling, lane management, roaming, objective control, baron/dragon control, smiting, zoning, teamfighting, skillshot maneuvering, mana management, how to pick/ban, vision control, kiting, skirmishing, how to gank, how to escape ganks. All of these are skills. And a great amount of them require decision making in order to succeed. Not all of these are just rigid repetition of buttons over and over again. Though they are all skills needed to be honed for a lol team to succeed (some are more important for different players though). Calling everything a "rigid repetition of something over and over" is a gross oversimplification of lol's mechanics, and honestly tells me you're either trolling or have never played lol. If you're trying to reduce lol to just pressing buttons and actions per minute, then the same could be said of dota/starcraft, could it not?

[–]450925 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

I guess that's true. No one will reach a professional level of a sport without practice though. Though some people start at >different places. It's not really important to the discussion though. There are people naturally good at video games in the west and east. It's not some racial skill like in wow or something, lol.

This is my point... but what is equally important, is you cannot take someone with zero natural talent and teach them to be good at something if they have no natural draw to it. It would be like trying to teach a fish to walk. All the practice in the world won't yeild results.

And while we take the whole "decision making is needed in LoL" a second... no it's not, not nearly as much as it is in DOTA. In LoL, skills have shorter cooldowns, less death timer, bigger mana pools, zero turning time... essentially diluting all the "decision making" down to the bare minimum. Essentially the decision making level required for League can be handled by an old Casio calculator.

On the other hand, DOTA, has so many more mechanics involved, all of the ones you mentioned. Except with longer cool downs, smaller mana pools and longer death timers (punishing bad decisions being made) as well as deny mechanics, stacking and pulling jungle camps, managing creeps with blocks and agro mechanics. And having turn rates which makes dodging skill shots harder.

The only part of the game that requires an inherrant talent and skill for both games, has been minimized by Riot for League, and expanded on in DOTA. Which is why there's no big gulf with well performing regions. This years champions, NA, last year, china, year before Europe... So far Europe has 2 wins and China 2 wins. This shows that DOTA requires inherrant skill more than just precision training. Which is what Korean esports teams do great. And why LCS is dominated by Asia.

[–]ilikemenz[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

The problem with what you're saying is you're going from "dota takes more decision making than lol" to "lol can be handled by an old casio calculator." The former is something I think is still an arguable claim, because I don't really think more complex mechanics equals a more skillful game, but i'll give it to you because all i'm trying to prove is that lol takes skill not that it takes more than dota. The latter is just ridiculous, as all the things I listed about lol are still prominent, and even though dota's mechanics are more complex, they exist in lol. Just because dota has more complexity than lol does not mean lol could be done by a "casio calculator."

This shows that DOTA requires inherrant skill more than just precision training. Which is what Korean esports teams do great

This comment also shows how little you know about the lol scene. It's pretty widely accepted by lol pros, lol coaches, lol analysts, and the general player base of lol that follows esports that the reason the asian teams are better than western teams is because of their teamwork and decision making, not precision training. An example would be that eastern teams are way better at using Teleport to gank, flank, and start teamfights. This is not precision training or mechanics, but teamwork, strategy, and decision making. Sorry dude, but what you're saying just isn't true. It's kinda funny how the decision making and teamwork are what truly separates western and eastern teams, but then you sit here and tell me lol takes no decision making or teamwork. Your logic just doesn't hold up.

[–]450925 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

The point I was making was about the amount of decision making, since there really is only one set of calculations when dealing with any actions. And that calculation is "will this benifit me more than my enemy" you input the variables and out pops the answer. Since the variables (mechanics) are more limited in LoL, I made the joke about the casio calculator because it's so simple a decision making process.

Teamwork, is not a skill. It's a branch of communication where the collective efforts of people are combined. Which is something you practice you practice syncronised swimming don't you? It's not something someone can just do on their own, it's about the combined work of the group. You can be particularly adept at following someone elses lead, or you can be a strong leader being you cannot be a good teamwork.

What would show someone as being really skilled at the game, would be doing things that change the meta. And even then, those aren't decided by the players, that's usually the coaches and managers that think that stuff up during practices.

The Asian teams will be dominating the LoL scene because they have mapped out in their minds already the limited number of options for themselves as well as the enemy, and they have practiced those moves. Matched up with outcomes of each event and executes as accordingly. That's not skill, that's repetition. It's a formula where "jump in for gank = X" and he works out probability of "X being successful" Then it's a case of "enemy distance from tower = D, My slow/stun = CC and current health = HP.....

If D is high, and CC means that I can do enough damage to HP fast enough, then X.

Where as I mentioned with DOTA, there are factors like, support rotations with TP scroll, your target may TP away and live, runes in river, the fact that every hero can get an invis. (this is of course on top of every variable that LoL also has)

And if your point about Eastern teams being just so much better is true, then how come the Koreans haven't dominated DOTA yet? They have been trying, do you know what happened? A team of westerners wen't over there and destroyed them for a little over a year.

But I'll explain again... nice and slow for you this time... DOTA, takes more... than just rigid repeating... it requires creativity and flexibility. Which other traditional esports don't have as much of. Starcraft for example, is all meta all the time, it's all math again. It's massive resource management and fast clicking. It doesn't take talent as much as it takes practice. (again, I'm not saying zero talent involved, just a smaller portion compared to practice)

[–]ilikemenz[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

And if your point about Eastern teams being just so much better is true, then how come the Koreans haven't dominated DOTA yet? They have been trying, do you know what happened? A team of westerners wen't over there and destroyed them for a little over a year.

Because, no one plays. There is also no culture set up around dota like there is with lol. There is no lck, no challenger, no high level analysts or coaching, no one scouting solo queue for the next Faker,which makes the top of kr solo queue extremely high quality. There are millions of young koreans playing lol in pc bangs right now with ping in the teens. This just doesn't exist for dota.

Teamwork is also a skill. Like wtf are you smoking dude? It can be practiced and honed and some people are better at it than others.

The Asian teams will be dominating the LoL scene because they have mapped out in their minds already the limited number of options for themselves as well as the enemy, and they have practiced those moves. Matched up with outcomes of each event and executes as accordingly. That's not skill, that's repetition. It's a formula where "jump in for gank = X" and he works out probability of "X being successful" Then it's a case of "enemy distance from tower = D, My slow/stun = CC and current health = HP.....

This is just a bunch of unfounded bullshit, with no evidence to support any of it. I supported my argument about eastern teams being better by talking about teleport, and i'll also say that eastern teams, especially chinese teams, tend to have very good teamfighting, which is another skill in lol that requires decision making and teamwork. I have given you two concrete examples where eastern teams show better affluence at certain concepts in lol, both of which require teamwork and decision making. You've given me random bullshit about a math formula, which doesn't even make sense.

But I'll explain again... nice and slow for you this time... DOTA, takes more... than just rigid repeating... it requires creativity and flexibility

This is also true for lol! It's funny, because eastern teams also tend to be a lot more creative and flexible in their team comps and strategies than western teams. It's generally considered because of the multiple game format set of the eastern regions, rather than the bo1 western sets. This allows eastern to be more creative and try more stuff, because they aren't limited to a bo1. Western tends to play standard in all of their bo1 matches, which stagnates western metagames.

After talking to you for a while, I really get the feeling that you'd actually enjoy watching eastern lol if you actually gave the game a chance. It really is better and more high quality from a strategical and teamplay perspective than the western LCS. Generally, the western teams catch up a little just before the world finals, because they scrim asian teams like there's no tomorrow before worlds, so some western teams sometimes do sorta well, but it tends to be stomps in the favor of the east. There hasn't been a western team in the finals s1, which is sad, but it speaks to how good the eastern teams really are at lol. The top eastern teams are skilled in strategy, decision making, teamplay, and mechanics. There's just no way around it.

[–]LeagueMasterRace 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

OP brings up a valid argument and gets downvoted, with horrible analogies being the main argument against him

This sub is so utterly retarded hahahahaha when I got to the retard comparing himself to an engineer I straight up lost it.

[–]ilikemenz[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some people are so full of themselves, because they play dota. I mean, these people have to feel superior somehow, and bashing what other people do for fun and some get paid to do is a good way to do it. I know this place isn't technically a circlejerk, but I'm getting the feel that it really is, because if this sub is actually serious, this sub would be the most ridiculous thing on all of reddit, and that is saying a lot, considering some of the subs here.

[–]2 headNicu_99 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

2/10. You tried.