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On the Ashley Madison Leaks (self.GamerGhazi)

PeppyHare66 が 投稿

I'm disgusted by all the celebrating I see over the ALM leaks. It truly is another one of those cases where redditors who scream and cry about privacy are cheering the release of names, phone numbers, and addresses of men and women. Even if the ONLY victims of this leak were first-world scumbag cheaters, it still wouldn't justify this release.

But there's a good chance that the victims are NOT just a bunch of Americans and Europeans. Potential victims include LGBT users from oppressive countries who just wanted to meet people and hookup without being murdered. Maybe some straight woman trapped in a marriage with a dangerous man could find herself strangled to death. Maybe... It's nobody's goddamn right to pass judgement. There's a thousand reasons that people cheat. Who the fuck are those people that think they have the right to just decide that they could be doxxed?

I guess it doesn't matter anymore. The names are out there, and it could mean somebody's life. Just know that if you were one of the people cheering anonymous on then the blood is on your hands.

Edit: Grammar and np redit link

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[–]PixelDirigible@NoraReed/What Is #GamerGate Currently Ruining 18ポイント19ポイント  (2子コメント)

There's also likely a lot of vulnerable sex workers, especially since Ashley Madison wasn't the only site targeted. They also went after one that facilitates finding "sugar daddies".

[–]wayfarupthere 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

Given what we've seen here over the past year, I'm betting that any accounts actually belonging to flesh-and-blood women (as opposed to catfishing sockpuppets) will be preferentially targeted for further doxing and life ruining.

On 8chan, they always seem to find a target, and, if the target is male, find girlfriend and sister(s) and any gay friends or relatives, targeting these far worse than the original male target.

[–]PixelDirigible@NoraReed/What Is #GamerGate Currently Ruining 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, doxing of any of these people who're still with their spouses is gonna cause collateral to hit them. And their families. Not to mention that this data is pretty old, so it's gonna hit a lot of randos living in adulterers' houses.

[–]jayjaywalker3 37ポイント38ポイント  (0子コメント)

Anytime redditors are celebrating something I become pretty concerned.

[–]Enleat+1;dr 37ポイント38ポイント  (2子コメント)

That post about the gay Saudi Arabian man is extremely depressing :( I really hope he manages to escape.

Peoples private sex lives are none of your bussiness. If someone is cheating on their partner it's between them, their partner and anyone they choose to involve in their personal lives. Not the entire Internet (saddly Gjoni does not believe in this which is what caused all of this).

[–]WhyAndrewLikesThis 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

From reading up on AM after the leak, it doesn't seem that they facilitate same sex hook ups at all.

However, adultery is also punishable by death in Saudi Arabia.

[–]macinneb 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

If someone is cheating on their partner it's between them, their partner and anyone they choose to involve in their personal lives.

And hundreds and hundreds of people if you're Eron.

[–]Nurglings 32ポイント33ポイント  (6子コメント)

This whole situation is terrible. I wish I could say that Reddit just hasn't thought about how badly this could end but honestly even if someone gets killed by their spouse because of this Reddit would probably respond with "good".

[–]jerkpriest 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

That was my first thought on the situation. It's awful the site exists, and awful the data got leaked. Stealing from thieves and killing murderers aren't morally justified, just animally gratifying. I guess the real issue is that adultery isn't a federal crime, while private information theft is. It's an ugly matter, and nobody comes out clean.

[–]Uganda-In-Particular 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Are you implying that adultery /should/ be a crime?

[–]jerkpriest 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

No, I'm saying that legally speaking the leak itself is the bigger crime. I'm not equipped to say adultery is more or less permissible

[–]Uganda-In-Particular 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nor is the state, which is why I found what you said troubling. But I do agree with what you said, when explained more.

[–]macinneb 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

The response would be "Well I don't condone murder but if she didn't want to get killed she shouldn't cheat."

[–]SirGuyGrand 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think even more likely is someone kills themselves.

How many suicides, successful or otherwise, will it take for Reddit to realise these are real people with lives, not playthings for the amusement of the internet?

[–]OmegaBlue0231☭☭Comrade In Arms☭☭ 18ポイント19ポイント  (2子コメント)

And as always a general reminder, do not link to sites that have the leak on it.

[–]Pure_GonzoColluding Right Now 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

I know what you're trying to say, but your double negative is a suggestion TO link to the sites with the link on them. Unless that was your intention?

[–]OmegaBlue0231☭☭Comrade In Arms☭☭ 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you, I was trying to write, do not, but instead wrote don't not.

[–]rooktakesqueenCultural Bolshevik 18ポイント19ポイント  (10子コメント)

There's a weird dynamic I've seen online. Internet dudes seem to consider cheating basically one of the worst possible things in the world to do. The idea makes them blindly, excessively angry.

Example: there are any number of amateur erotica writers' sites out there. Many of them allow comments. Because these are fictional stories, sometimes they touch on some pretty dark stuff, stuff that there's a market for because people do fantasize about it, but including like... Rape, molestation, murder, maiming. And cheating.

The amount of hate given to the stories featuring cheating exceed everything else. Just pages upon pages of comments about how horrible, awful, and disgusting cheating is, and this story is because it has cheating in it. But like... The other horrible shit on these sites doesn't get nearly the amount of hate! Rape and murder, totally OK... as long as some dude doesn't get cheated on.

I don't know if it's just... Part of nerd culture? This weird mix of misogyny and insecurity, where the worst insult they can think of for a man is calling him a cuckold, where they're constantly terrified that some Chad is going to swoop in and steal their woman by performing masculinity better?

[–]davidloach 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

The obsession with the word "cuck" recently definitely has something to do with this

[–]StumbleOn#notallgates 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Women belong to men, therefore being robbed of that posession is the worst of all possible things.

[–]another_sunnyday 12ポイント13ポイント  (4子コメント)

Internet dudes seem to consider cheating basically one of the worst possible things in the world to do. The idea makes them blindly, excessively angry.

I'm been curious about how they will rationalize the fact that 90-95% of the profiles on AM are men, considering their false belief that cheating is something that mostly women do.

[–]akestral 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

See, this is the tidbit that has me perplexed. What the hell were all those guys paying for if the site was a nigh-total sausage fest? Were sex-workers allowed to use the site for free or something? I don't get it.

[–]sleepybrett 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nope they just had fake profiles making it look like less of a sausagefest to keep the guys paying.

Next time on shady businesses are shady...

[–]another_sunnyday 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

I have no idea, but I would guess a lot of the ''women'' were AM employees or bots, and that ultimately there were a lot of disappointed dudes.

[–]akestral 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

See, what I don't get is that people were paying for this shit. I mean, say what you will about Craigslist encounters and OKC and Tinder, but at least with them you know you're actually talking to a real person, no matter how oddly-inclined sexually or hygienically-challenged. But with this, it sounds like the Enzyte scams or As Seen On TV products: The money is made by getting people to order the dingus and then charging them up the wazoo for "shipping and handling" or making it really difficult to unsubscribe, not by delivering a product that's actually worth a damn. But this is the internet: how much could anyone be willing to pay for a service if it wasn't getting them laid within a month or two? When there are So. Many. Ways. to get laid for free online?

[–]remy_porterSocial Justice Duskblade 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't you understand? These people are nice guys, and nice guys are always the victims when cheating happens. If a man cheats on a woman, it's because she's frigid, and the man is still a victim. Having open and honest communication in a relationship wouldn't fix anything, obviously.

[–]StrivingAllyIt's about Lorem in Ipsum Scatterplot 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fuck, really? That's disturbing as hell. It says a lot about our society that women's betrayals are seen as less acceptable than their violation or death, even in fiction.

[–]NoxiousDogCloud 17ポイント18ポイント  (2子コメント)

Also not everyone that registered for the site was in a relationship. Being attached wasn't a requirement to sign up.

[–]RacecarlockSocial Justice Sharknado 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

So, ok, the data has been released. Think about the damage that one zoe post did. Then think about how many women might be in this data. Hell, 1 gamergate has managed to threaten many women without even having a false cheating story for every one of them. Just zoe.

Now there's the data of potentially hundreds of women out there, and this shit could get ten thousand times worse. Good god.

[–]sthippie 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's about self-righteousness. See, the people cheering are forever aloners who could never even consider cheating on anyone. So their nemeses (non-single people) are getting their due. i.e Principle > Privacy

[–]figurativelywhen#NotYourPreparedSock 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm seeing some folks saying "hey look prominent morals crusader was on it, yay!" Yuk. Don't do that. That's similar to the 8ch "look for our enemies on the list" mindset.

Outing people is wrong. I don't care if you dislike them, I really don't. It's just wrong.

[–]EthicsInSTFU 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't think so. The difference is Josh Duggar advocates against gay marriage (for a handsome wage) to protect the "sanctity" of traditional marriage at the same time he's spending thousands of dollars trying to have an affair. It's rank hypocrisy and I have no problem with him being exposed for that.

On the other hand, no alleged "SJW" or 8chan enemy would be guilty of hypocrisy if they were using AM. Naivety, and possibly stupidity, yes, but not hypocrisy.

[–]figurativelywhen#NotYourPreparedSock 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

cool. so who decides "this person is a hypocrite and its OK to doxx them?"

cos GG, Gawker and Breitbart will use their own standards, too. And I'm sure they have different ones to you.

And redact the name in your post. Don't doxx and out people. it's a hideous slippery slope.

[–]EthicsInSTFU 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

cool. so who decides "this person is a hypocrite and its OK to doxx them?"

In the case of my personal opinion, I decide. Others can judge if I am right or wrong.

cos GG, Gawker and Breitbart will use their own standards, too. And I'm sure they have different ones to you.

I'm sure they do, and I don't speak for either. But if you can't see the difference between outing a public figure who shapes political opinion for his hypocrisy and outing a private individual who nobody cares about because they choose to speak up against bullies and gang harassers then God have mercy on us.

[–]gdshaffeThe Sock was Impromptu, I Have Proof 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

The people cheering this leak share so much in common with fanatical puritans. All about high-minded ideals like privacy, right up until the point where the person whose privacy is being violated is someone they morally disapprove of, at which point it's "Fuck principles, This asshole deserves it".

When the government violates someone's privacy under the guise of protecting them from terrorists, they lose their shit. But when hackers violate people's privacy under the guise of punishing infidelity, they're the world's loudest cheerleaders.

Such principles. Much wow.

[–]Afrodisiac333 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The comments here are really refreshing. Reddit (as well as other Internet forums) just seem to be really callous about all of this. I do admit, I was pretty apathetic at first. But after reading the various people that this doxx has affected I had a major change of heart.

[–]PhyrexianDildo 3ポイント4ポイント  (15子コメント)

I'm on board 100% with the opinion that this leak irresponsibly jeopardises the safety of LGBT folk and those in abusive relationships. What I can't agree with is this seemingly intentional avoidance of what AM promotes.

Yeah, in the grand scheme of things what you do in your bedroom is not my concern. What is my concern is an unethical shitbag of a company that capitalizes on ruined lives. AM profits from destroying people and to sit here and excuse it with "its none of your business" is like listening to some Bitcoin fanatic excusing illegal firearms and child porn on the Silk Road because it doesn't directly concern me. I don't need to be shot or to have my child exploited to know that either are terrible things to do to people.

However, in this case I do know what infidelity feels like. It fucking destroys you. It destroys your ability to trust and makes emotional intimacy with others seem like a gamble on par with farting after a Taco Bell binge. How anyone can hand wave away such an awful thing to do to a human being with pithy comments is dumbfounding to me.

Tl;dr: Grossly irresponsible hacking, but lets not forget Ashley Madison is mostly an asshole company profiting off of the asshole behavior of massive assholes.

[–]zegotaBeta Mangina White Knight 21ポイント22ポイント  (8子コメント)

Are you really fucking comparing cheating in a relationship to sexually abusing children? Even if I agreed with you that cheating was a big deal, that would be INCREDIBLY INAPPROPRIATE.

[–]PhyrexianDildo -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

No, I'm saying excuses are like assholes. Everyone has one, they're often shitty, and there are times when showing it isn't welcome or appropriate. This is one of those situations where no one comes out smelling like roses but I'm not seeing much acknowledgement of that. AM's gleeful endorsement of ruining lives and the hand-waving response to that because "not my chair, not my problem" IS the same as some Bitcoin twerp or free market ideologue glossing arms smuggling and child abuse because he/she hasn't been personally effected by either.

[–]zegotaBeta Mangina White Knight 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

Well, if you want to get down to brass tacks, I'll say that for me, personally, I think societal expectation of monogamy is what 'ruins lives,' not the near-inevitable digression from it.

Do I think having a fling is ethically wrong? Sure, in the same way that not picking up your dog shit is ethically wrong. I think that's a far more apt comparison than motherfucking child rape.

  1. The vast majority of people who signed up for AM likely never intended to go through with anything, and just did it for some fun, flirty kicks. It's the equivalent of flirting in a bar. Not only is it not cheating, it's completely fucking banal, and anyone freaking out about their spouse doing that is already cultivating an incredibly unhealthy relationship.

  2. Even the people who did intend to cheat likely were never actually able to, given the vast amount of reported fake profiles.

If I found my spouse's name on that list, I'd be way more pissed that they'd wasted a bunch of money on a shitty website like that than at the idea that they might have bumped uglies with someone else.

[–]PhyrexianDildo -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

If you get down to brass tacks both act out on their selfish desires in ways that flout "societal expectations" and ruin lives. Blaming what you see as outdated morality or norms in instances with a clear victim and victimizer only excuses the criminal of his crime and delegitimizes the victims suffering. The analogy may be harsh but I think it sticks.

If these people and their partners agreed to a poly relationship then I would agree that them catching shit for their lack of monogamy is totally a matter of the critic having a massive pole up their ass. But I am not one of those people and that is not the argument I am making.

[–]zegotaBeta Mangina White Knight 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Adultery is not a crime anymore. Thank god, because it was almost always used to punish women.

I guess we'll agree to disagree, because I don't see those who are cheated on as "victims." You don't fucking own anyone's body, not even your spouse's.

[–]PhyrexianDildo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with your first point. However, it doesn't mean the act in itself is neutral or otherwise without negative externalities. I also never stated or suggested that it was any matter of ownership or other chauvinistic bullshit like that. In fact, I specifically said that what happens in your bedroom is none of my business and differentiated my issue with AM from some normative moralizing about monogamy. Disagree with me as much and as harshly as you please but also respect my intelligence enough not to straw man me.

[–]rooktakesqueenCultural Bolshevik 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Speaking as somebody who has been on the receiving end, I think "ruin lives" is overstating it. Yeah, it can definitely suck, for a while. It can definitely damage your relationships with other people, for a while.

But I've yet to meet somebody who met the clinical diagnostic criteria for PTSD because they were cheated on. I've yet to meet somebody utterly incapable of forming emotional attachments say, 10-15 years down the road.

Which is good, because cheating happens in anywhere from 25-70% of romantic relationships, depending on whose numbers you listen to.

On the other hand, I have met people whose personalities were indelibly changed, who suffered PTSD, who suffered psychological attachment disorders, from things like molestation and rape and violent victimization.

Infidelity is bad, but it's way, way down there on the hierarchy of bad things.

[–]wayfarupthere 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not arguing that it's worse, but it's definitely more harmful to be caught cheating this way than usual.

It's not just the spouses who find out.

Kids are way more computer-savvy than their parents. The edgelords out there already have this downloaded by now and will up their hacker cred at school tomorrow by lording the info over kids who will be very much blindsided and traumatized by it.

37 million accounts. Even discounting as many as I can, that's millions of families who are going to have a very bad day.

[–]PhyrexianDildo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was molested by the eldest son of a woman my father was dating during a sleepover (For clarity, I am a cishet male). That event and a generally shitty childhood significantly altered my life in negative ways and lead to me later being diagnosed with adult attachment disorder stemming from untreated reactive attachment disorder, post-traumatic stress, and major depression disorder.

You know what triggered the episode that led to those diagnoses? The woman I intended marry cheating on me with the next door neighbor after an argument. She then kept that from me for 3 months before cheating on me again with my now very much former best friend and eventually leaving me for him. All I got for two years of utter devotion was jack shit to my name but a mountain of debt, a pack a day smoking habit, and a unaltered male cat who liked to spray on my clothes.

Infidelity can be your shit sundae or the cherry on top. Either way, I don't think you'd want to eat it.

[–]Bloo_DriverLiterally Bloo 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's worth noting that the "no one has a right to judge" statement elsewhere in this thread should be amended to "no one has a right to judge except people in the relationships". However, cheating is not really comparable to illegal firearms and child porn in the least. The point others are trying to make (I think) is that sitting back and saying "yeah screw all those cheaters!" is woefully uninformed just because we have no idea what each person is going through. Are some scumbags going to be exposed for what they are? Sure. But reveling in the whole thing is pretty awful. No one is saying AM is great and who cares what they do, it's more of a "let's not try to pretend we know these folks or their lives".

Beyond that, though AM is a pretty awful company since they effectively made you pay to erase your profile and it turned out they kept the info anyway.

[–]Gazelleit☿ Unethical Transigner ☿ 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

"no one has a right to judge" statement elsewhere in this thread should be amended to "no one has a right to judge except people in the relationships"

I feel I should point out that the judgement by those in the relationship may not even be entirely negative. With there being many shades of non-monogamy from swinger parties to polyamory, from people who have it as a fetish and to people who do it as work. Chester Brown's "Paying for it" is a great read on that last point.

[–]Bloo_DriverLiterally Bloo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh sure, I didn't mean to imply it would always be negative.

[–]Metallics 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Plus, they were told to shut down or the hackers were going to release the info.

Ashley Madison refused, and the end result will likely be the same except now peoples lives have been damaged as well.

[–]Kennen_Rudd 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Assholes still have rights. Recognising this doesn't mean you support AM or infidelity.

[–]PhyrexianDildo -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I see your point but also don't think people are being unreasonable when they act less than concerned about the right to privacy of those who enthusiastically violate their partner's right to honesty, dignity, and respect.

[–]MonsieurConnisseur42 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'm a bit out of the loop, what's this about Ashley Madison leaks?

[–]squirrelrampageSquirrel Justice Warrior 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ars Technica has a good article on the issue.

[–]Ayasugi-sanNow With 100% More Ethics 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm with you, only I'm also out of the loop on what Ashley Madison is.

[–]Alienbaccttaliteralmarxist 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

A website with the tagline "life's short, have an affair" with 30 million accounts on it, 95-ish % of which are men was hacked with the threat that if they and another site(managed by the same peeps) didn't close down they would release the 30 million's info. Ashley Madison didn't close and now we are here.

Also: They had a pay to delete your info option at Ashley Madison, but it turns out they just didn't do it. Also, you have/had to have a credit card associated with your account to use the site.

NOTE: not an expert, this is all what i have heard from news/tech podcasts

[–]Ayasugi-sanNow With 100% More Ethics 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also: They had a pay to delete your info option at Ashley Madison, but it turns out they just didn't do it. Also, you have/had to have a credit card associated with your account to use the site.

I think I'd heard about that before, and from that gotten the impression that it was a revenge porn site. So I was wtfing at widespread celebration about info being leaked, like do they want women already victimized to have more personal information released? The actual situation... it makes more sense why some would be celebrating, but still really sucky.

[–]Omicron0Actual Skeletron 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can't say i'm sad innocent people now could know they should leave their "partner", maybe it was even one of those that did this. But yeah a lot of people could be using this for other reasons and may now be in danger because of the leak.

[–]MattyOlyOi -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Anonymous chooses better targets than this and tends to be more responsible. This "Impact Team" that did the hacking looks like it was probably some people who got scammed by the website and swore revenge:

http://www.bustle.com/articles/105183-what-is-the-impact-team-the-ashley-madison-hackers-delivered-on-their-promises

[–]haeshdem0n -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Am I the only gazelle that had an AM account? :$

Sadly, nothing ever came of it.

[–]Ayasugi-sanNow With 100% More Ethics 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You might not want to admit that right now... Pre-emptive apology if you get doxxed or harassed.

[–]Jaz_the_Nagai -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

... So are we pro-doxxing or anti-doxxing?

[–]ElephantAmoreI've got my Orange Crush. 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Spoken like a true Carleton University student. Last Chance u indeed.

[–]RacecarlockSocial Justice Sharknado 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Anti! Full stop! This is not a pro doxxing subreddit!