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Introducing the relaunch of /r/ShiaNews (self.islam)

CloudLeaper が 投稿

Salam!

I am one of the mods of /r/Shia. We are in the process of re-launching and rejuvenating the subreddit, and are hoping to attract new users to our sub. We want it to be a place of community and dialogue, where contemporary Shia issues can be discussed, questions about Shia Islam or Shia communities can be answered, and theology and history can be learned. We're not looking for only Shias to join, or only religious people to join, or for certain political views. Rather we want to create a diverse, vibrant community that can have interesting relevant discussions.

We also feel a real need and niche has arisen to discuss these issues, especially in relation to recent and older developments in the world, whether they are political, theological, or founded in community. This sub has also seen its fair share of Shia-Sunni issues.

/r/Shia is in no way a replacement for r/Islam. We don't mean to create divisions; we merely want r/shia to be a place of discussion, where topics relating to Shi'ism or the Shia community can be talked about in-depth - a complement, or affiliate of r/islam. We do not want to stir conflict or animosity.

We'd love it if you guys could check us out---here are some of the plans for the subreddit:

  • A new, updated CSS theme

  • More active moderation, that supports the community

  • New, more specific rules that allow people to discuss sensitive topics without derailing threads

  • Weekly discussion topics

  • A writer series by different users on key topics that need addressing

Tell us what you think, and let us know if you're interested in joining the mod team. Consider subbing!

Khuda-Hafiz

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[–]psychollama1 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Wow that's awesome! I actually do browse the shia sub from time to time but I welcome the improvements you've made. May Allah make it a success and make it a means for uniting us all.

[–]CloudLeaper[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks man, that's what this is all about.

[–]martyrfx 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

The downvotes are strong in this thread. Hopefully we can have a good turnout in r/shia to kill these misconceptions. Jazak Allah Khair

[–][deleted] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Interestingly the downvote/upvote percentage of this thread is the same as my Zaydi thread in /r/Shia. Seems like people just don't like alternate views.

[–]martyrfx 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not quite sure why. Zaydis aren't bad at all. They are just as shia as they are Muslims.

[–]CloudLeaper[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

It has absolutely nothing to do with Twelver persepective on Zaydis or Zaydism, but rather the specific user who posted it, who is a convert and is not at all representative of Zaydis or Zaydism.

[–]Cackerot 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can get behind this

[–]GreyskullVillain1584 4ポイント5ポイント  (41子コメント)

Is there a unification mosque in the same way some christian denominations are unification sects who have a kind of all inclusive Christianity ?

[–]CloudLeaper[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Hmm. No and yes? Shia and Sunni mosques are frequented by members of the opposite sect relatively frequently. There are also relatively frequent inter-sect prayers. I'm not aware of a unificaition mosque in the West at least, however. Sometimes Shia and Sunni 'isms can be so close that a mosque could function as one without attempting to be one.

As well, Islam is somewhat different than Christianity in certain ways that are hard to draw parallels. For example, one of the core functions of a mosque is to provide a place of assembly or jamaat. However, the assembly itself could essentially happen anywhere. And in that way, yes there have been multiple assemblies.

Hoep that answers your question.

[–]nyshia 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Non Denominational mosques to exist, especially at universities.

[–]CloudLeaper[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think this would fall under my assembly point

[–]azeenab1 1ポイント2ポイント  (27子コメント)

Shias pray in Sunni mosques in the Muslim lands all the time. They just pray separately from us.

[–]Elijahquestions 4ポイント5ポイント  (21子コメント)

Separate for what reason?

[–]moon-jellyfish -2ポイント-1ポイント  (19子コメント)

Well, Sunnis can't pray behind Shias.

[–]GreyMatter22 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

Not at all, I have seen plenty of Sunnis pray behind Shi'as in my university's MSA.

The MSA is actually really conservative, have a Salafi leaning in almost all issues, quote Saudi scholars, or scholars who studied from Saudi Arabia at least in Juma sermons, but when it comes to pray, I see plenty Sunnis lining up behind a few of my Shi'a friends who are religious and have experience in leading jamaats.

Sure this does not happen majority of the times, but it does happen every now and then.

There are plenty of joint prayers all over Iraq and Bahrain, many times behind a Shi'a Imam on a regular basis, especially in Iraq in their thousands.

You also get a lot of Sunnis who regularly attend the Grand Mosques in Najaf and Karbala and pray with the crowd, be it a Friday prayer.

In my country of Pakistan, such Bahrain and Iraq like initiatives aren't done, but during Muharram processions which is attended in their millions, among Shi'as, you also get thousands of Sunni ambulance and scout volunteers, security forces and civilians joining the processions, all of whom which pray behind Shi'as when time comes at noon.

You could research all of it as well, plenty of cases en mass, so if some radical is preaching the 'heretical Imami Aqeedah' nonsense, well then what happens in the aforementioned places consistently contradicts such desperate attempts.

Sure there are those who won't pray behind, their choice, but when crowds do, the 'Sunnis can't pray behind Shi'a' is inaccurate.

Just recently:

..And these are just the televised events just a bit before, not the hundreds that go unaccounted.

[–]moon-jellyfish 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hmm, I had read that it wasn't allowed. Thank you

[–]-Nightfall 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Even Ibn Taymiyyah RA, one of the most vociferously anti-Shi'a scholars of Islam, basically allowed prayer behind Shi'a or even any other innovators/heretics/sinful people in general, and even said it was obligatory in some cases (i.e. you're in a city where you're the only Sunni, however unlikely that may actually be in reality).

You also get a lot of Sunnis who regularly attend the Grand Mosques in Najaf and Karbala and pray with the crowd, be it a Friday prayer.

According to Ibn Taymiyyah RA, this would be obligatory.

Source: https://ballandalus.wordpress.com/2014/10/21/ibn-taymiyya-d-1328-on-the-conditions-and-permissibility-of-praying-behind-heterodox-muslims-2/

[–]Elijahquestions 2ポイント3ポイント  (15子コメント)

For what reason?

[–]CloudLeaper[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (11子コメント)

Some Sunnis* can't, as they don't consider them Muslims. Not all Sunnis believe this. To portray this as the sole belief of Sunnis is deceitful--there are many Sunnis who pray behind Shias in Iraq for example.

Edit: * to clarify

[–]psychollama1 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

Wait, we can't? If for example I've prayed behind my friend, who is a zaydi (I think thats the name) shia does that mean my salah is not counted as a non shia? It was a little bit different like having the arms on the sides but most the other actions were pretty much the same if I remember properly.

[–]CloudLeaper[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

reread my clarified statement.

[–]psychollama1 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I actually meant this as a reply to u/jellyfish lol but thanks for replying anyways.

[–]azeenab1 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Ahlus Sunnah allow praying with Zaydis. They do not allow praying with Imamis.

[–]psychollama1 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Ahh, what are the reasons for that again?

[–]MajedJamal 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Like disbelief in the authenticity of the Quran, or practical 'godhood' of their 12 'imams'.

[–]azeenab1 -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Zaydis don't have a deviant and/or heretical 'Aqeedah.

[–]-Nightfall 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Even Ibn Taymiyyah RA considered it acceptable to pray behind Shi'as.

[–]CloudLeaper[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Surprised to find a mod on this sub typing that out

[–]-Nightfall 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Not an opinion held by all scholars. For example, Ibn Taymiyyah RA is one of the most vociferously combative of Shi'a creed in Islamic history, yet he still does not deem it impermissible to pray behind them:

https://ballandalus.wordpress.com/2014/10/21/ibn-taymiyya-d-1328-on-the-conditions-and-permissibility-of-praying-behind-heterodox-muslims-2/

There is great wisdom in his teaching, as it seeks to minimize possible tribulations that would arise from "YO, THIS GUY'S A HERETIC, DON'T PRAY BEHIND HIM" as well as the consequences of abandoning congregational prayer when it is immensely beneficial for the Akhirah.

[–]azeenab1 -5ポイント-4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Did you actually read this properly before posting it?

The exceptions do not govern the rule.

Why are you posting it as a general ruling when he clearly restricts it to conditions that do not exist today except in a few rare cases of necessity?

From the author's translation (I haven't verified the translation but It seems correct based on skimming the Arabic):

If the individual is certain that the imām is an outright sinner or an innovator that calls others to misdeeds, and this is the designated imām and the only individual behind whom it is possible to pray, as is the case with the imams of the Festival prayers, the Friday prayers, the prayer leader at ‘Arafa and the Pilgrimage, then according to the general opinion of the scholars it is permissible to pray behind him.

Note the conditional permissibility, i.e. only due to necessity.

These sentiments repeat throughout both citations. I love the last paragraph of the last citation, btw.

…If an imam has been specifically designated to lead prayers by the political and administrative authorities, and there is no benefit in abandoning prayer behind such an individual, then praying behind this designated individual—although he may not be the most righteous candidate—is best. This applies in equal measure to the one who is an outright sinner, or has openly manifested innovation, or one who is in clear violation of the Qur’an and Prophetic example, as in the case of the rāfida and other heterodox groups. As for the one who opposes the Shi’i school of thought, while abandoning congregational prayer and excommunicating his fellow believers, he has made the same error as the Shi’is, for verily the most serious accusations that Sunnis have made against Shi’as is their abandonment of congregational and Friday prayer, and their excommunication/anathematization of other Muslims.”

Let's see the Shias respond to that.

To conclude, the permission here only arises due to the importance of congregational prayers in Islam.

He is using the "lesser of two evils" principle here, or "weighing the benefits and the harms." It is a far greater evil to leave the congregational prayer than to fraternize with deviants and/or heretics. OR Establishing the congregational prayer is of far greater benefit and will take precedence over boycotting deviants and/or heretics.

It is a common theme across many of Sheikh Al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah's fatwas. He gets it from Imam Ahmad. May Allah have mercy on them both.

Using this fatwa as a general ruling is a misrepresentation of Ibn Taymiyyah, when he clearly states that the permissibility of praying behind deviants and/or heretics only applies in cases of necessity when the Muslim has no other option.

Where in the Muslim World will these situations exist except in cases were the population of Shias is much greater than that of Sunnis in those specific communities or in those specific scenarios?

[–]-Nightfall 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

my bad in that case, thank you for the correction

[–]azeenab1 -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Have you seen them pray?

[–]nyshia 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

Shias are allowed and encouraged to pray WITH Sunnis in Sunni mosques

[–]moon-jellyfish -4ポイント-3ポイント  (6子コメント)

I don't it's accurate to compare Islamic sects to Christian denominations. Shias make up ~5% of Muslims, and the rest are Sunnis.

[–]-Nightfall -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Good question (I presume you're not a Muslim).

No, because 95% of Muslims are Sunnis and Shi'a are mostly only in a few countries in large numbers, such as Iran, Azerbaijan, Iraq, and Pakistan.

[–]FutureBreedMachine66 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Iran, Azerbaijan, Iraq, and Pakistan.

Forgot India? The nation with the second largest Shia population in the world, after Iran.

[–]99PercentRecyclable 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Way more than 5%

[–]waste2muchtime 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think that's a fantastic way of looking at it. May you find success inshaAllah.

[–]-Nightfall 0ポイント1ポイント  (53子コメント)

Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only [left] to Allah ; then He will inform them about what they used to do.

http://quran.com/6/159

[–]CloudLeaper[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (11子コメント)

Salam bro, thank you for your perspective. I guess /r/Shia would not be the community for you.

[–]azeenab1 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (40子コメント)

So, what you're saying is that Shias are doing something wrong by splitting from the community and identifying as Shias?