23
24

VENTOur own double standards. (self.ABCDesis)

onefyodor が 投稿

並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A
あなたは単独のコメントのスレッドを見ています。

残りのコメントをみる →

[–]Anandya 11ポイント12ポイント  (67子コメント)

Okay. I work in India and it's bad. Reality check here. Violence and rape are common. I deal with both. Sad truth time, women in India are fighting for equality assist a lot of things.

Indian men are still portrayed as man children in India. They aren't taught to respect women and what respect they are taught is stupid and infantilises women.

Simple example? I am a doctor. I can't watch a movie with another doctor without some fucking busy body interfering. Right now two doctors are watching a movie next to me of their own volition. It's illegal. Cause they are women.

Indian men don't learn how to behave around women. We behave like dicks. We can't take no for an answer. We pride perseverance when in reality that's fucking stupid. We portray relationships in ways that are just wrong. I just watched a movie where a woman fell in love cause a guy kept stalking her.

This is what we teach our young men then wonder why women fear them. Because most of them know us as creepy mouth breather from the net.

We are the least sexy of all ethnicities due to this. We encourage a culture of entitled young men.

They can't cook, clean or dress themselves. They are told that food will be there when they get home and the house will be clean. Attitudes are changing but we don't have the change we need.

Indian women don't want us cause they know about the douchebags. Other women don't either.

We don't push any people who are positive to women. Our cinemas are still misogynistic. Our culture still values boys. It will take ages for the new Indian man to be considered anything but the dregs of the dating barrel unless we can rebrand ourselves.

[–]Master_AKFeed my false ego 10ポイント11ポイント  (18子コメント)

Right now two doctors are watching a movie next to me of their own volition. It's illegal. Cause they are women.

Where is this illegal? I'm working in Delhi right now and have been to the movies with my female friends (one is a doctor) multiple times.

[–]Anandya 1ポイント2ポイント  (17子コメント)

Rural India, I have had a security guard come and tell me that women cannot sit with men in the accommodation for doctors.

I am afraid this is the majority of India. Not the cities.

[–]Master_AKFeed my false ego 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

India isn't a homogeneous entity, I have been to many rural areas where men and women are able to socialise with each other.

[–]Anandya 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is rural Tamil Nadu, this is a hospital accommodation where the security got angry that "girls" were using the "men's facilities" which is our speakers and laptops to watch a movie in a more social environment.

My cousin once went to a police station and got reported to his parents cause he went for a walk with his wife. Interfering busy bodies and letches abound.

[–]asdfioho 15ポイント16ポイント  (8子コメント)

No, it's not the majority of rural India at all. Almost my entire family lives in the countryside and there are no such restrictions, nor is the situation as you portray it at all with rampant rape and clueless sexually-handicapped creeps walking around. And I'm talking about Punjab, one of the states with the strongest culture of patriarchy and misogyny.

Either you're embellishing a LOT to the point it's pure hyperbole, or, you shouldn't consider yourself a representative to speak for all of India because your experiences are not at all representative and just create a false narrative.

I'd take your comment a lot more seriously if you phrased it appropriately as a caution that segments of the population (which you may deem as significant according to whatever standards you can provide) are still quite conservative. But what you're doing is hyping up something to elicit an emotional response. Kinda like how my Khalistani buddies will take an example of forceful Indian police tactics in protests as proof that "India is doomed to collapse."

[–]Tucker_MalcolmXII 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

I can't profess to know enough to invalidate u/Anandya's comments but my parents come from a village in Rajasthan, probably one of the top 3 most repressed states in the country, and I can say that claims of rampant rape and tolerance for sexual assault would be considered character defamation. Yes, women definitely don't have the same social standing as men, but it's absolutely absurd to think that a man could rape a woman without any consequence.

[–]frackarackaBharatanatyam Booty 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Even if the woman was a Dalit?

[–]akbar-great_chai-tea 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Actually, yes, though it doesn't help.

Rape of Dalit women by upper-caste men is rampant in some parts like Rajasthan, Haryana and UP but it's not necessarily without consequence. They are often quoted in newspapers as saying, "Even if I end up in jail, it'll be for the good cause of keeping my caste pure". The fear of going to jail is real because India has a respectable 25% conviction rate and caste lynchings and rapes have witnesses. But the rapists' double hatred of Dalits and women is stronger than that.

[–]Anandya 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Marital Rape. It's legal in India. We actually cannot calculate its incidence.

[–]Anandya 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have worked in Tamil Nadu, Haryana, Bihar and a couple of weeks in Rajasthan. I find people acting like this in Tamil Nadu.

[–]Anandya 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You mean the same khalistani buddies who tried to change the very fundamental foundation of Sikhism and move it away from its egalitarian core and adopt a religious state? There was a reason many Sikhs opposed it. It was insane and would have fractured India as a secular state.

[–]asdfioho 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, sorry to be blunt but you're honestly an idiot if that's the only thing you could understand in my post.

Especially because I was specifically mocking their logic in using those events to overhype and create an emotional narrative, just like you were using.

[–]akbar-great_chai-tea 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

"Indian men don't learn how to behave around women. We behave like dicks. We can't take no for an answer."

Given that you yourself believe that you are a danger to the women, why was the security guard wrong in removing you from the vicinity of women? Are you just annoyed that you were not allowed to harass those women? And why were you watching an Indian movie that you know is misogynist?

[–]tinkthank 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

And why were you watching an Indian movie that you know is misogynist?

He didn't say he was watching an Indian movie. He just said 'a movie'. You make a good point though. Its incredibly disingenuous to use anecdotal evidence to pass judgment on a country of more than 1 billion people, though if he lives there, I'm sure he can make presumptions based on trends in the country.

Personally, I don't think he's entirely wrong, but his painting of all Indians in the manner that he did was I think a little over the top.

[–]akbar-great_chai-tea 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

He said he was watching the movie in a rural area, which means that he must have been watching Indian movies.

It's not so much his use of anecdotes that's jarring to me. It's his utter and complete lack of nuance. He doesn't say that the popular media often trumps up rapey narratives as romantic and that is problematic. He says that Indian movies are rapey and that's that. He doesn't say that Indian men are often conditioned to expect certain things without having to work for it as a matter of their gender privilege. He says Indian men are man-babies and that's that. And then there's the other stuff like

We are the least sexy of all ethnicities due to this. We encourage a culture of entitled young men.

How does he know that? Has he asked people about the causes of 'least sexiness'? Does he have any evidence that even a significant number of people think this way beyond his own projections? Nope, no critical thinking required at all when you are dealing with a bunch of third-world-ers, right?

Indian women don't want us cause they know about the douchebags. Other women don't either.

At this point, he's basically denying the agency of millions of Indian women and quite a few non-Indian women who have chosen Indian men as their SO by saying that their choice is not valid because he believes so.

Human communication doesn't happen merely through words. It also happens through the intent behind those words, the tone with which they are delivered and the context in which they are spoken and the specific choice of words that are used. His words speak of much more than India's social problems. It speaks of his own feelings of inadequacy and his projecting it on his ethnicity.

[–]asdfioho 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Reading your comments is always like seeing my own thoughts sprawled out in more eloquent language

[–]Anandya 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Pedantry really helps discussion.

The security guards got angry that women were not in their side. Their side has no canteen, no hot water, no drinking water and no speakers for laptops or space to sit.

Instead of logically allowing both sides to share the security tried to act as moral guardians because contract between genders is bad.

There are still places in India where women are segregated into things like this and note these are fucking doctors who are treated like this.

[–]akbar-great_chai-tea 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was simply holding to a mirror to you. That's not pedantry, just the expectation of a little self-awareness.

You could have just written the above and said that a lot of criticism of Indian culture is warranted. Instead, you went on a massive rant and started projecting your own issues on the subcontinent. Not cool...

[–]woesoverhoes 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

Sexist views exist in most developing countries. I volunteer at Mexico every weekend during the summer. The men there ask the female volunteers to be their girlfriends and one even burned one the women with a cigarette when she said no. In Africa women get acid thrown on them. And how about the middle east? This isn't uniquely an Indian problem like you are making it sound.

[–]Anandya 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

No its not, but we have a specific set of problems that are unique to us. And we aren't judged by Africa or Mexico but by India

[–]mopimopi 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

As if sexist views don't exist in 'developed' countries

[–]immilaw 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

But it's significantly better in developed countries. It's insane if anyone thinks the US is the same as India/Pak for women.

[–]onefyodor[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

A lot of what you said is true, a lot of what you said iis absolute trash, but you have missed the entire point of my post and focused on driving down the stereotypes further.

My bad.

[–]mopimopi 12ポイント13ポイント  (37子コメント)

Dude, you're full of shit.

[–]akbar-great_chai-tea 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

But at least now you know why Donald Trump is ahead in the GOP primaries! There are people who believe what he says.

[–]iLoveSethMacfarlane 3ポイント4ポイント  (35子コメント)

They can't cook, clean or dress themselves. They are told that food will be there when they get home and the house will be clean.

So much this. Seriously I thought it was just my family.

[–]FaFaRog 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

Most of the brown guys I know have lived alone at some point and picked up some cooking basics along the way. They aren't fucking Vikram Vij or anything but they can get by.

My parents taught me how to cook some basic Indian food before they taught my sisters because I left home years before them. I don't think there really is a clear consensus on this one..

[–]onefyodor[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (30子コメント)

My mom taught me how to cook when I left for college. Today I can cook anything from simple Chinese, lasagna, some serious chili to chicken biriyani for 5.

But hey I'm sure you'd pick that one ridiculous comment to stereotype all of us. Good job.

[–]immilaw 2ポイント3ポイント  (28子コメント)

For one desi guy like you, I can rattle off at least 5 other desi guys who can't boil water or get their moms to do their laundry in college. I don't understand why everyone is so defensive about this. Desi man children are a real problem in our community and you should be mad at these schmucks for ruining it for desi dudes in Western society, not snark at someone else for calling them out on it.

That one comment is not "ridiculous," far from it.

[–]woesoverhoes 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's an annoying generalization. Similar to how desi girls are stereotyped as being divas, spoiled, or high maintenance.

[–]immilaw 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

It may be annoying, but it's true in many cases. Pretending like we don't have any flaws and hurr durr blame the white women for rejecting us is pointless.

[–]asdfioho 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe in your experience it's true in "many cases," but not for everyone, and I definitely don't think that's why people reject Desi men. Holy fuck, stop painting us as a whole. "We" obviously have flaws as all individuals and cultures do, but they're not all the same, and neither are all our rejection rates as you so beautifully put it. You aren't really particularly enlightened that you somehow get the right to speak for all Desi men.

EDIT: never mind, I see you're not a guy...lol, the double standard is quite palpable, I won't say more

[–]onefyodor[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (15子コメント)

Why should I be angry at them more than at the people who stereotype me without any qualms?

I don't understand how so many desi women are fine with perpetrating racist stereotypes about desi men, but when it comes to sexism or racism against other minorities you're the ones to join the protests first..

[–]immilaw -5ポイント-4ポイント  (14子コメント)

Because stereotypes are based in truth in many instances. This is why Asian guys have a problem dating in the US, and quite frankly I wouldn't date an Asian dude either. I have no interest in "little emperors," bossy MIL's or shitty home lives for women. It's not my job or any woman's for that matter to wade through hordes of poorly raised desi/Asian/whatever guys to find one who defies stereotypes to prove that we are not racist. Our community has to collectively fix these problems, not expect others to ignore them.

[–]chlrgambino 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

With all due respect, I've stood up for my wife plenty of times. I've stood up for my kids. If you dealt with terrible people, sorry, but don't go around stereotyping an entire race.

[–]Anandya 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

To add to your argument, I just got into a massive fight with my family after my fiancee left me. Reason? My mum was being bossy Indian MIL. I may not have the other problems but we still have mums who don't know when you stop.

[–]Master_AKFeed my false ego 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's funny because most of the foreign born Desi girls I know are useless cooks and all the middle class/upper class girls in India have maids so they can't cook either! My sisters and cousins start complaining when they get told to make a few rotis.

For every Desi man child there is an entitled princess who is equally useless.

[–]onefyodor[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

Oh also your anecdotal evidence doesn't by any means excuse racial stereotyping.

And yes his comment is ridiculousl with no data to back up. It's nowhere illegal to watch movie with women. May be kn saudi. What the hell are you talking about?

[–]immilaw -5ポイント-4ポイント  (6子コメント)

Your story about cooking is purely anecdotal too. Where is your data to back up desi guys knowing how to cook and clean to counter his argument.

[–]onefyodor[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

yeah but I am not the one who made the larger claim that all desi men are misogynsitic slobs. It's him and YOU.

Burden of proof is on you.

[–]immilaw 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Listen I don't know why you are so bitter. He is providing his life experiences to explain why desi guys are perceived as undesirable. As for me, as a woman and a lawyer who has a large desi client base, I have encountered a lifetime of sexism. I don't need "statistics" to decide what I want or don't want to deal with.

[–]onefyodor[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah bitter is the internet version of creepy I guess? I am angry and that's my general response to racism- no matter whom theyre directed at.

He is providing his life experiences to explain why desi guys are perceived as undesirable.

Meh, he's stating as if those are facts and those are not.

As for me, as a woman and a lawyer who has a large desi client base, I have encountered a lifetime of sexism.

Not my fault, was never your client. You have a chip on your shoulder to jump in and generalise all desi guys.

I don't need "statistics" to decide what I want or don't want to deal with.

Sure you don't but don't act like they're "based on truth". It's a purely emotional decision and you're disparately trying to rationalize those. Your life, your call. But don't pretend like it's a rational decision.

[–]zadillac -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Your experience resonates with mine. This thread has me cracking up. OP starts out decrying the whole concept of Indians pointing out negative connotations in others, and then promptly proceeds to attack views that don't align with his own. Bonus points for the "May be kn saudi" [sic] comment. We can't consider him a manchild though. After all, he knows how to cook. Respecting opposing points of view? That's just asking for too much.

I usually refrain from replying to people exactly because of the sort of response you got, but I guess in this case I really relate to what you're saying.

[–]Anandya 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Would you like me instead to talk about ask the good desi boys who beat their desi wives? I am a village doctor. They think they can lie to me but I know. Their wives tell me and I have to try and fix that too. Or how about the fact that marital rape is normal in India. Most Indian women are told that sex is filthy and most Indian men are perverse for wanting any. It's changing but Delhi is far away. Do you know how many women come in with bruising to the vagina ashamed to talk to me about it? I have female staff change their attitudes to sex because everyone thinks that marriage equals consent. Or how many are frightened and ask for medication because they had fun during sex. It's messed up because we don't think like this. But the people who think like this are online and are more likely to shit up our reputation. While most of the diaspora are not like this, I am sure we know people like this who have a bad habit of behaving like this.

India is mostly rural. Misogyny is entrenched here and we are still fighting it. It sucks that we are treated poorly cause of then but the struggle is real.

[–]Listeningtosufjan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, neither of the big parties in India. seem willing to make marital rape illegal because apparently the woman must always say yes as that is part of the marriage contract. You can't shake it away and say it's not happening. The Indian government blocked the broadcast of the documentary India's Daughter instead of addressing the misogynistic attitude that Indian culture holds. Shouldn't we be able to criticise people judging all of us us by a stereotype as well as the people acting like the stereotype?

[–]iLoveSethMacfarlane 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Based off my experience I did a really good job stereotyping. Not all, but most of them are like this.

[–]eyeearsaarAuthentic Indian 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

What you have described here is certainly a reality, but its not the only reality. You have reduced the people of my country to rapists, misogynistic idiots, mannerless bigots, unsexy douchebags, incompetent dicks and whatnot. That my dear fellow is stereotyping.

I am perplexed as to what made you raise this single sided argument. Also, why are you making blank statements like 'We behave like dicks', 'They aren't taught to respect woman', 'We encourage a culture of entitled young men' etc.? Its not like WE, THEM, US are homogenous or even the majority.

You know what, I am giving up on you, it doesn't matter whether you see the entire picture. The people you describe here do not represent me or millions of other Indians.

If you think that most of the Indian people are this way then your idea of what WE are is skewed. Please try and gain a better perspective, cut down on the self hate.

Also, don't boil everything down to how Indian men are perceived in the western dating market, there are better things to care about.

[–]Anandya 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I see your millions and raise your tens of millions. You are the minority. You are the actual chocolate in a box where every so often there is a random chocolate dog turd.

My experience is from India dealing with patients and with other doctors. It's from friends who came here have told me about how they were treated if they were women. I am afraid we have a bad rap for a reason. In the UK it's exacerbated due to the recent Rotherham scandals since now we are seen as paedophiles too.

[–]trctn4238934 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Have fun calling yourself a dbag but do the rest of us a favor and do not include us in that list.

[–]BrownhopsCupertino Giant 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Holy crap, this is the most bullshit I've read on here. Congrats.

Simple example? I am a doctor. I can't watch a movie with another doctor without some fucking busy body interfering. Right now two doctors are watching a movie next to me of their own volition. It's illegal. Cause they are women.

Wut.

[–]TotesMessenger 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)