全 102 件のコメント

[–]SuzysSnoballs 10ポイント11ポイント  (11子コメント)

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What about the Haavara Agreement? Seems if they wanted the Jews exterminated inside the camps they wouldn't have gone through all the trouble of having an official program to emigrate the German Jews to Palestine with their wealth and property in tact.

[–]PersonMcName 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

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What about the Haavara Agreement[1] ?

First of all, that doesn't magically mean the Wannsee Conference never happened, and the same with Operation Reinhard. Secondly, the plan became impossible to implement after Germany invaded Poland in 1939.

[–]SuzysSnoballs 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

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It's easy to fabricate things like Wannsee and Operation Reinhard after everyone's dead and/or spent time being tortured half to death in Soviet custody. In case you missed it, Hitler was very consumed with fighting a multi-front world war (and winning) against England, France & Russia until America got suckered into the fight. People always act like eradicating Jews was Hitler's numero uno goal in life, but it wasn't. I can assure you it was probably 5th or 6th on his list of importance. And if all he wanted to do was kill Jews than why go through all the trouble of loading them onto trains and transporting them to the camps? Why not just give orders to shoot Jews on sight?? Wouldn't that be more practical? It just doesn't add up, and it doesn't make any sense what the history books say about this. And the reason why it doesn't make sense is because the "winners" got to tell the story of how everything went down and the Germans have been so thoroughly shamed they'll never have the courage to try and correct anything.

[–]PersonMcName 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

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It's easy to fabricate things like Wannsee and Operation Reinhard after everyone's dead and/or spent time being tortured half to death in Soviet custody.

It's not possible to fake that level of complexity. We're talking documents, firsthand accounts, hard evidence of the plans, and more. The Soviets could not possibly have managed to fake something of this scale.

People always act like eradicating Jews was Hitler's numero uno goal in life, but it wasn't. I can assure you it was probably 5th or 6th on his list of importance.

Like that somehow means it was no big deal that the Holocaust happened? It doesn't matter how high it ranked, it still ranked, and that's the issue.

Why not just give orders to shoot Jews on sight?? Wouldn't that be more practical?

He did

It just doesn't add up, and it doesn't make any sense what the history books say about this.

How exactly? Pretty much everything makes sense about this.

[–]SuzysSnoballs 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

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I guess I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here. I think we can agree the Soviets were hands down a much more brutal regime who killed and tortured untold millions more in their gulags than the Germans ever did.

Have you ever watched this goofy little documentary about the gas chambers of Auschwitz or this one about some of the other popular camps? I'm not a Holocaust denier in any way, but after viewing these, I have little doubt that the 6 million number is a total farce.

[–]PersonMcName 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

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think we can agree the Soviets were hands down a much more brutal regime who killed and tortured untold millions more in their gulags than the Germans ever did.

Except that a) The Soviet regime lasted a lot longer than the Nazis, b) when you account for this, the Nazis were far more brutal, and c) no one denies the Soviets were responsible for some brutal things like the purges and Holodomor. Also, d) the Japanese were just as bad as either the Soviets or the Nazis in terms of brutality (see: Unit 731). As for the thing on the gas chambers, a lot of their evidence hinges on the Leuchter report, which has a lot of holes. The documentaries also never account for the deaths having any other cause than gassing (though the majority where), such as the Einsatgruppen.

[–]SuzysSnoballs 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

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They're all bad, but you'll never convince me the Nazis were worse than the Soviets during that same time period. He who killed the most takes that crown. And that man is Stalin because his regime killed far, far more people, tens of millions it was often claimed, in the endless wastes of the Gulag.

[–]PersonMcName 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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And that man is Stalin because his regime killed far, far more people, tens of millions it was often claimed, in the endless wastes of the Gulag.

Do you have a source for this? Because between the Holodomor and the purges, the death toll is only around 4.3 million (which is still not exactly tiny).

[–]qwerty_asd[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

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Yeah, they deported some Jews to Palestine. I didn't mean to imply that it is historical fact that Hitler specifically intended to exterminate the Jews.

If you read Mein Kampf, Hitler definitely wanted them out of Germany, and for the millions of poor masses, that meant going to prison camps, not hamane relocation.

[–]4to6 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Hitler definitely wanted them out of Germany,

More specifically, he wanted the Jews where they could no longer do harm to the German people.

[–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

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Ive never read Mein Kampf, but I can tell you haven't either.

[–]qwerty_asd[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

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You caught me! I didn't actually read it, but rather listened to an annotated english translation as an audiobook.

[–]FunnyRocker 6ポイント7ポイント  (42子コメント)

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Is there really any solid evidence behind the gas chambers? Many scholars, including Jewish ones, say no. Why would they incinerate bodies pumped full of explosive gas? Why would they spend so much on lethal gas when they could have just stopped food or water rations?

Millions of people did die in concentration camps, however 6 million Jews? No. The number is closer to between 100-200 thousand. There were not even 6 millions Jewish persons living in Europe at the time.

Was there an extermination of the Jewish population? Likely not. As you said, there is no evidence. Most of the Jewish lives lost were from the Allies bombing the railroads and halting the flow of food into the camps, thus causing the prisoners to starve to death.

In this light, did the "holocaust" really happen? Being objective, not really, but it depends how you define it. Were a lot of innocent lives lost in a horrible set of events set in motion by an evil dictator? Absolutely. Were one group of people singled out on top of other groups? Yes. Was it awful? Yes.

[–]PersonMcName 13ポイント14ポイント  (7子コメント)

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Is there really any solid evidence behind the gas chambers?

Yes, yes there is.

Many scholars, including Jewish ones, say no

Can you give an example? And please don't cite the Leuchter report, since there are so many holes in it it's not even funny.

Why would they incinerate bodies pumped full of explosive gas?

The gas was only explosive in very high concentrations, higher even than was needed to kill people with.

There were not even 6 millions Jewish persons living in Europe at the time.

Oh really?

Country Estimated Pre-War Jewish pop. Estimated killed % Killed
Poland 3,300,000 3,000,000 90
Baltic countries 253,000 228,000 90
Germany & Austria 240,000 210,000 90
Bohemia &Moravia 90,000 80,000 89
Slovakia 90,000 75,000 83
Greece 70,000 54,000 77
Netherlands 140,000 105,000 75
Hungary 650,000 450,000 70
Byelorussian SSR 375,000 245,000 65
Ukrainian SSR 1,500,000 900,000 60
Belgium 65,000 40,000 60
Yugoslavia 43,000 26,000 60
Romania 600,000 300,000 50
Norway 2,173 890 41
France 350,000 90,000 26
Italy 40,000 8,000 20
Russian SFSR 975,000 107,000 11
Denmark 8,000 52 <1
Bulgaria 64,000 14,000 22
Luxembourg 5,000 1,000 20
Total 8,861,800 5,93,900 67

Source: Dawidowicz, Lucy. The War Against the Jews, Bantam, 1986.p. 403

Why would they spend so much on lethal gas when they could have just stopped food or water rations?

Because that is not particularly efficient.

Was there an extermination of the Jewish population? Likely not.

See table above.

Most of the Jewish lives lost were from the Allies bombing the railroads and halting the flow of food into the camps, thus causing the prisoners to starve to death.

You do realize that even former SS members disagree with you right?

  • Hearing about Holocaust denial compelled former SS-Rottenführer Oskar Gröning to publicly speak about what he witnessed at Auschwitz, and denounce Holocaust deniers,stating: "I would like you to believe me. I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I was on the ramp when the selections took place. I would like you to believe that these atrocities happened because I was there."

  • SS-Oberscharführer Josef Klehr has said that anyone who maintains that nobody was gassed at Auschwitz must be "crazy or on the wrong"

[–]3inchwhoreheels -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

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trying too hard.

[–][deleted] 2ポイント3ポイント  (20子コメント)

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Why use gas when a good old fashioned stick will do the job for free.

[–]4to6 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (19子コメント)

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As the Soviets and Chinese Communists discovered, the most efficient way to kill large numbers of human beings is a single pistol round to the back of the head. That is what the Nazis probably would have used if they had ever intended to exterminate the Jews. But they did not use it, because there was no such extermination policy.

[–]PersonMcName 2ポイント3ポイント  (18子コメント)

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So you're saying the Einsatzgruppen didn't exist?

[–]4to6 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

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Did not use it in the camps.

[–]PersonMcName 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

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No, but they still used it. And they used gas in the camps, because that was even more efficient.

[–][deleted] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (2子コメント)

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They built huge facilities for the purpose of extermination? No, that's ridiculous. Gassing, cremation etc, is insane. The jews (Soviet jews) killed Ukrainians by starving and shooting them, there's too many jewish survivors to give any creedence to that gassing myth.

[–]PersonMcName 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

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They built huge facilities for the purpose of extermination? No, that's ridiculous.

How so? It's almost as if this was seen as a long-term project, which would require a very efficient set-up

The jews (Soviet jews) killed Ukrainians by starving and shooting them, there's too many jewish survivors to give any creedence to that gassing myth.

First of all, what does the Holodomor have to do with the Holocaust? Secondly, since when are all Soviets Jews? And finally, you do realize that among the Ukrainians killed were a significant number of Jews, right?

[–][削除されました]  (12子コメント)

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[deleted]

    [–]PersonMcName 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

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    They were, at most, 2000 men in a brutal fight with insurgents behind the front lines.

    Actually, they ranged from between 2,700 to 3,000 men. And that was not at all their purpose.

    • In a letter dated 2 July 1941 Heydrich communicated to his SS and Police Leaders that the Einsatzgruppen were to execute all senior and middle ranking Comintern officials; all senior and middle ranking members of the central, provincial, and district committees of the Communist Party; extremist and radical Communist Party members; people's commissars; and Jews in party and government posts. Open-ended instructions were given to execute "other radical elements (saboteurs, propagandists, snipers, assassins, agitators, etc.)." He instructed that any pogroms spontaneously initiated by the occupants of the conquered territories were to be quietly encouraged. On 8 July, he announced that all Jews were to be regarded as partisans, and gave the order for all male Jews between the ages of 15 and 45 to be shot. On 17 July Heydrich ordered that the Einsatzgruppen were to kill all Jewish Red Army prisoners of war, plus all Red Army prisoners of war from Georgia and Central Asia, as they too might be Jews.

    but to put that figure at 2 million (just of Jews) is extremely difficult to prove, or to justify.

    Except that they kept very detailed records of how many they killed. In just a 5 moth period, one single unit of the Einsatzgruppen killed 136,421 Jews alone.

    [–][削除されました]  (10子コメント)

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    [deleted]

      [–]PersonMcName -2ポイント-1ポイント  (9子コメント)

      ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

      Oh yes, the infamous "Jager Report", which was "found" fifteen years later by the Soviets.

      You mean the same report which had 5 different copies (although the other 4 were destroyed), and which the guy who wrote it admitted to writing? I really hope you're not serious right now.

      The same Soviets who "reconstructed" the "gas chamber" at Auschwitz-1, according to Franciszek Piper, Director of Research at the Auschwitz State Museum.

      Are you really claiming that there were no gas chambers?

      The same Soviets who forged the identification card of Demjanjuk.

      This has never been proven. Just claimed.

      The same Soviets who tried to pin the Katyn massacre on the Germans.

      Because this somehow invalidates anything they have ever done ever?

      in addition to their job of maintaining order behind front lines, and fighting partisans?

      Their job never included maintaining order.

      [–][削除されました]  (8子コメント)

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      [deleted]

        [–]PersonMcName -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

        I think you would be better off saying "alleged copies", if they don't exist.

        I see. And there were only four copies of the Magna Carta ever made, since let's be honest, any others that were lost just didn't ever exist.

        Well, he was found not guilty, so the court must have concluded it was forged. Plus, FBI seems to think it was forged. But hey, what would they know, right? They're probably all secret anti-semites...

        I'm not saying it wasn't forged, I'm saying there is no evidence that the Soviets were the forgers.

        It means you need more than a piece of paper, or some words spoken by a person.

        So in other words, first-person accounts are now invalid? Good to know.

        [–]qwerty_asd[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

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        The use of gas chambers in concentration camps is indeed a very prominent detail of the widely popularized history of the Nazis which is not substantiated by non-anecdotal evidence.

        [–][deleted] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

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        Ive been to Auschwitz an have seen the gas chambers. With nail marks on the walls. How could that be explained?

        [–]qwerty_asd[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

        You're just some anonymous person on the internet who claims to have seen gas chambers years after the alleged events took place. I consider that to be anecdotal evidence.

        [–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

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        [deleted]

          [–]DumbledoreSays 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

          ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

          Just on the 'meth binge' thing, where is the primary evidence to support this claim?

          [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

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          [deleted]

            [–]DumbledoreSays 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

            I try to avoid 'History channel' nonsense. Is there any primary evidence cited within that 'documentary' to verify the claims?

            [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

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            [deleted]

              [–]khamul787 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

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              objectively

              Holy hell this is the funniest "article" I've read all week.

              [–]DumbledoreSays -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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              Terrific contribution. Please keep doing good work by spreading this information. People like myself who have never really studied this aspect of history rely on people like you to present this 'side', because schools and the msm only present the ridiculous 'Germany evil, 6m Jews' side.

              [–]errorstarcraft 2ポイント3ポイント  (14子コメント)

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              [–][削除されました]  (12子コメント)

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              [deleted]

                [–]PersonMcName 4ポイント5ポイント  (10子コメント)

                ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                Where are all the mass graves?

                You have Sonderaktion 1005 to thank for that.

                [–][削除されました]  (9子コメント)

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                [deleted]

                  [–]PersonMcName 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

                  ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                  He's talking about the supposed mass graves of the 2 million killed by EG

                  • The operation also returned to the scenes of earlier mass killings such as Babi Yar, Ponary, the Ninth Fort, as well as Bronna Góra. By 1944, with Soviet armies advancing, SS-Obergruppenführer Wilhelm Koppe, head of the Reichsgau Wartheland ordered that each of the five districts of General Government territory set up its own Aktion 1005 commando to begin "cleaning" mass graves. The operations were not entirely successful as the advancing Soviet troops reached some of the sites before they could be cleared.

                  [–][削除されました]  (7子コメント)

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                  [deleted]

                    [–]PersonMcName 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

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                    How many do you think died at Babi Yar, by the way, and what do you base this on?

                    33,771. So in other words, mass graves the size that you're talking about.

                    [–][削除されました]  (5子コメント)

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                    [deleted]

                      [–]PersonMcName 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

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                      Something with actual evidence behind it, according to documents and testimonies. FFS, we even have pictures of this.

                      [–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

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                      [deleted]

                        [–]errorstarcraft 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                        The people murdered by these death squads, would be registered and processed before they were killed. There exist substantial records inside the Nazi archives of their own industrial level extermination operations. In terms of Graves there are vast and numerous sites punctuating the path of the einsatzgruppen, winding through Poland as they killed their way across eastern Europe into Russia.

                        One of the largest Graves is located in Vilnius, Lithuania in an unfinished Soviet fuel storage site. the einsatzgruppen followed behind the Wehrmacht to clean up civilian undesirables, but their mission was to enact the final solution. At first the death squads encouraged the local population to murder the Jewish community amongst themselves, which occurred sporadically, eg in the death dealer of Kovno incident, but shortly thereafter the einsatzgruppen directed the mass killings independently for efficiency.

                        But in terms of substantiation, the Nazis documented their own crimes. There is a vast historical record also of the attempted cover up once the war appeared lost. Either way, the truth isn't difficult to ascertain if you are interested. It's up to you to study the available records, which I assure you are thorough.

                        A good start, if you're interested is the destruction of the European Jews by Hilberg.

                        [–]Castative -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                        I really recommend this movie, to everybody who is interested in this topic http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_radikal_Böse_(Film) its directed by academy award winner Stefan Ruzowitzky and imo gives highly interesting insight as to why these massacres were possible to happen

                        [–]PersonMcName 2ポイント3ポイント  (11子コメント)

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                        The most noteworthy unverified historical fact is that Hitler commanded the systematic extermination of the Jews.

                        We have the camps, conferences and plans, entire groups of the army, and even former SS officers who agree it happened, and more that has clear evidence to prove there was systemic extermination.

                        Stalin conducted organized exterminations of populations on a greater scale than the Germans, yet the Jewish victims of German are made the focus, if not the sole subject, of the popular history of WWII.

                        No he didn't. Combined, the Holodomor and the purges had a death toll of between 3.2-8.3 million (exact numbers for Holodomor are unknown) although most modern estimates put the combined death toll at around 4.3 million for both the purges and Holodomor combined. This is of course still extremely large and the Holodomor was undeniably a genocide, but it was not larger than the Holocaust.

                        Jewish victims of German are made the focus, if not the sole subject, of the popular history of WWII.

                        I can totally agree that we should also talk about the other groups killed, such as Gypsies, Homosexuals, Freemasions, Jehovas Witnesses, Soviet POW's, and the disabled. But that doesn't mean the the Holocaust was any less of a tragedy than it was (in fact, it would be even worse, since the total death toll of all the groups was 12 million)

                        [–]qwerty_asd[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

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                        You might be right. I'm not super hardcore about my beliefs on the Holocaust. My main point is that the history of the era is tainted by propaganda.

                        Regarding my statement about Hitler commanding the systematic extermination of the Jews, I meant what I said very literally. Perhaps a bunch of high-level Nazi officials oversaw the mass murder of Jews, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that Hitler himself commanded or had specific knowledge of the Jewish death factories we are taught about in history class. This isn't to say that Hitler wasn't responsible for the Nazi activities, but its grounds for questioning that Hitler's personal agenda included the mass murder of Jews.

                        [–]PersonMcName 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

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                        I haven't seen anything to suggest that Hitler himself commanded or had specific knowledge of the Jewish death factories we are taught about in history class. This isn't to say that Hitler wasn't responsible for the Nazi activities, but its grounds for questioning that Hitler's personal agenda included the mass murder of Jews.

                        • In 1922 Hitler told Major Josef Hell (a journalist at the time): Once I really am in power, my first and foremost task will be the annihilation of the Jews. As soon as I have the power to do so, I will have gallows built in rows—at the Marienplatz in Munich, for example—as many as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged indiscriminately, and they will remain hanging until they stink; they will hang there as long as the principles of hygiene permit. As soon as they have been untied, the next batch will be strung up, and so on down the line, until the last Jew in Munich has been exterminated. Other cities will follow suit, precisely in this fashion, until all Germany has been completely cleansed of Jews.

                        • On 21 January 1939 Hitler spoke with František Chvalkovský and said: We are going to destroy the Jews. They are not going to get away with what they did on 9 November 1918. The day of reckoning has come.

                        • On 30 January at the Sports Palace in Berlin, Hitler told the crowd: And we say that the war will not end as the Jews imagine it will, namely with the uprooting of the Aryans, but the result of this war will be the complete annihilation of the Jews.

                        • In Mein Kampf, Hitler argued that a war against Jews would have saved Germany from losing World War I: If at the beginning of the war and during the war twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the people had been held under poison gas, as happened to hundreds of thousands of our very best German workers in the field, the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain.

                        • In the following widely cited speech made on January 30, 1939, Hitler says to the Reichstag: Today I want to be a prophet once more: if international Jewish financiers inside and outside Europe again succeed in plunging the nations into a world war, the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth and with it the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!

                        Note: Hitler's choice of language in German in the final sentence of the above passage is "die Vernichtung der jüdischen Rasse in Europa" - unambiguously meaning "the extermination [or annihilation] of the Jewish race in Europe."

                        • In his personal diary, Joseph Goebbels writes: "February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.

                        • When questioned by interrogators if orders for the extermination of Jews were delegated in writing by Himmler, Adolf Eichmann states: I never saw a written order, Herr Hauptmann. All I know is that Heydrich said to me: "The Führer has ordered the physical extermination of the Jews." He said that as clearly and surely as I'm repeating it now.

                        [–]qwerty_asd[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

                        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                        Are there recordings of any of these? Or can you specifically cite where in Mein Kampf Hitler advocates the mass murder of the Jews?

                        I'm just skeptical of second-hand accounts of wartime vilification of the enemy.

                        [–]PersonMcName 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

                        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                        Are there recordings of any of these?

                        Some of these are taken from the diaries of people who heard this firsthand, and would also have no reason to randomly implicate Hitler, since they were private diaries. As for all the others, I'd guess that yes, since they were all from public speeches, or to people who then gave firsthand accounts.

                        I'm just skeptical of second-hand accounts of wartime vilification of the enemy.

                        These were all Germans.

                        [–]qwerty_asd[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

                        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                        I'll admit that my interest in this stuff is casual, while you seem like a serious enthusiast/professional, so I won't try to defend my original claims.

                        Rather than making assertions, perhaps I would be best served to just stick with the Henry Ford version of history:

                        History is Bunk

                        Or the equivalently apathetic outlook of Napoleonic

                        History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon

                        I'm extremely interested in how the world works and the events of history, but I really dislike arguing about the facts--particularly with strangers online.

                        Have a good one dude!

                        [–][deleted] 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                        You come hear to raise a massive point and then leave when presented with substantial evidence and logic? My god the situation is worse than I thought.

                        [–]qwerty_asd[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                        I was trying to respectfully concede that he has more expertise.

                        They see you trollin', and hatin'.

                        [–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

                        ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                        [deleted]

                          [–]PersonMcName 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                          Holodomor[1]

                          They claim 16.5 million, which not only is higher than pretty much any number currently accepted, but also has no source or who said it. In other words, it's just a random number that could easily have been pulled out of their ass.

                          Look past Wikipedia. Metapedia (meaning "beyond the pedia") is a good opposing source.

                          Looking at some of the articles on it, such as "the Preisthood caste", "6 million Jews" being under "folklore and religion", their list of "historians and investigators being literally only notable Holocaust deniers/revisionists, and their article on revisionism, which is just Holocaust denial apologism. Frankly, this seems like a beyond terrible source, and can't even get their facts straight, or give actual sources.

                          Don't you think it is strange that whenever you google search something related to WWII, just about every result on the first two pages is Wikipedia[2] , ADL, B'nai Brith, USHMM, Jewish Virtual Library, etc?

                          Not particularly. Wikipedia is always the top search, so that is completely unsurprising. As for the others, it's likely because they have good information and are well written. Besides, what do you expect to be at the top? holocaustrevision.com?

                          I am willing to find Wikipedia guilty by association...

                          That just doesn't make sense

                          edit: Also read this insight IHR article about Simon Wiesenthal[3] 's

                          Did you really link me the IHR?

                          [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

                          ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                          [deleted]

                            [–]PersonMcName 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                            The 16.5 million figure accounts for all the engineered famines that took place from 1917 until WWII.

                            Such as? To the best of my knowledge, the only major famine was the Holodomor. I'm also curious as to why you start it at 1917.

                            things were fine for Christians in the USSR

                            Because the Holodomor specifically targeted Christians? This is news.

                            Your infatuation with the myth of 6 million means that my efforts are wasted on you.

                            Appreciate how little you're willing to argue your points. For the record, I did read the IHR thing, and it was full of so many holes it wasn't funny.

                            Hopefully some day you will realize that not even Jews believe that figure; they acknowledge it as symbolic, and as a continuation of the longstanding numerical tradition of Jews claiming 6 million of their kind perished to the Czars.[1]

                            I have yet to meet a single Jew who has ever claimed this, likely because no Jews actually believe this. Also, could you please link to a specific source, and not a google search?

                            I would hope that those articles at the top of the list would be objective examinations of history, not emotion-ridden appeals written by those who have the most to gain from perpetuating the Holocaust myth.

                            You'd hope, but sadly, you'd be wrong for the most part. Seriously, the third result is Stormfront. That being said, there are also some results like this which give a decent explanation of the number. And before you claim that Haaretz is a biased source, I'd point out that you linked the search, not me. In fact, the best source in the search is this one, since it disagrees with your (and metapedias) argument that Jews were completely unharmed throughout the history of the Soviet Union.

                            [–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                            There's a lot more you could say. As regards Hitlers motivation and jewish motivation. It's something which has to be addressed, was he was a maniac or a prophet? No country in the world would voluntary allowed themselves to be conquered. I feel you we're a little disingenous when you omitted the jews sins when it came to the 2nd world war. Seriously? No mention of the jewish controlled Russia, or the jewish lead communist party in Germany. Let's not talk about the jewish boycott of German goods.

                            [–]4to6 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

                            ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                            Jews were systematically removed from German society,

                            You write not a single word about why the Germans did this. You do not even consider that it may have been justified, due to the power Jews held in German society at the time, and their abuse of that power.

                            the prisoners lives must have been worthless to their captors.

                            On the contrary, it is obvious that the Germans went to great lengths to preserve the lives of the people in concentration camps. What do you think the gassing of clothing, or the shaving of heads, was all about? It was an effort to cut down on disease, which the Jews brought themselves into the camps, so that more people would live.

                            The only arguable details involve the number killed, and how they were killed.

                            Wrong! There are innumerable details of the Holocaust mythology that must be questioned, and that on the face of it are absurd. The very idea that the Germans ever intended to exterminate Jews is not at all proven by any real evidence that exist, as you yourself point out.

                            [–]qwerty_asd[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

                            ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                            I can't see why the Nazis would have had compassion for the innocent Jews that they imprisoned. What plan could have possibly had for them besides letting them die?

                            If you value someone's life, why would you wrongfully imprisoning them indefinitely. Besides eventual death or enslavement, I can't imagine what plans the Nazis might have had for their racial/political prisoners.

                            [–]4to6 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                            Ask yourself, what was the purpose of concentration camps in the United States during WW2? There's your answer. The Germans had concentration camps for the same reason the Americans had concentration camps -- to concentrate the people who were considered dangerous and needed to be watched. During the War, the Germans also used those in the camps for slave labor. America, with its vast resources, wealth and mass production lines, never needed slave labor, so none was used. America was never even seriously stressed during the War, but it is telling that they, too, had concentration camps, just like the Germans.

                            [–]qwerty_asd[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                            A good point that I hadn't considered.

                            [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

                            ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                            [deleted]

                              [–]qwerty_asd[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                              That plan may have been outlined, but it seems like very wishful thinking to assume that Hitler actually intended to peaceably relocate all the Jewish prisoners to Madagascar. The only examples of forced relocations that I can think of are still generally considered as genocidal events, a la "The Trails of Tears" for the Native Americans.

                              [–]Crimson_D82 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

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                              [–]Kubomi 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                              The Nazis lost the war, that's why they're demonized and the atrocities of the Stalin regime swept under the rug.

                              [–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (40子コメント)

                              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                              Does anyone have anything to add about the work done by David Cole?

                              [–]qwerty_asd[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (39子コメント)

                              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                              What do you think of his work?

                              I find it generally unwise to either trust or distrust the ideas of individuals based on what strangers in internet forums say. I don't know who David Cole is, but you would be best served to approach all modern experts on the subjects with skepticism, and make your own assessments.

                              [–][deleted] 4ポイント5ポイント  (37子コメント)

                              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                              I think it's interesting but I'm a newcomer to WWII/Holocaust revisionism.

                              I just watched his home made documentary about the prison camps, where he examines the gas chambers and interviews the leaders of the camp conservation organization.

                              1. Evidence that the Auschwitz gas chamber had once been several rooms with toilet facilities.

                              2. Evidence that the rooftop holes where zyklon pellets were supposedly dumped into the gas chamber were added after the war, as stated by the historians in charge of the facility.

                              3. Fake chimneys that are not attached to anything.

                              4. Lack of physical evidence of any traces of cyanide on the walls of the death chambers verified by two independent tests.

                              5. Swimming pools and other amenities in Auschwitz that are never really mentioned.

                              6. Lack of hard documentation concerning any plans for mass gassings.

                              7. False, debunked artifacts of Nazi sadism touted by the Soviets, such as lamps made of human skin, soap made of human flesh, shrunken heads

                              8. The tallies of known dead from the camps shrinking with every revision, yet the total number being the same.

                              9. Admittance of forced confessions extracted from Nazi officers by torture.

                              And so on...

                              I mostly just would like to hear what others in this sub have to add about this.

                              [–]qwerty_asd[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                              Ahhhh I saw the excepts from that in The Greatest Truth Never Told. My impression is that it is a legitimate piece of investigative journalism, but even if we assume that what the film shows is totally valid, it doesn't single-handedly disprove that prisoners were mass-murdered there--though it strongly suggests that the place was dress up to conform with a false narrative.

                              I heard a piece of corroborating evidence in some lecture give by David Irving. According to Irving, who has as much integrity as a historian as anyone else in my opinion, in official transcript or recording, when Hitler was told "The Soviets have taken Auschwitz," Hitler was totally undisturbed, and just proceeded to discuss other matters without giving the capture of Auschwitz a second thought. This implies that Hitler did not himself think that Auschwitz was of any particular significance, which contradicts the popularized Holocaust history.

                              [–]PersonMcName 0ポイント1ポイント  (32子コメント)

                              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                              Evidence that the Auschwitz gas chamber had once been several rooms with toilet facilities.

                              That had traces of cyanide on them? Not to mention firsthand accounts of this by both guards and prisoners? (2&3 fall under this issue too)

                              Lack of physical evidence of any traces of cyanide on the walls of the death chambers verified by two independent tests.

                              The only test that ever showed this was the Leuchter report, which was so full of holes it wasn't even funny. (Not to mention that later tests proved he was completely wrong).

                              Swimming pools and other amenities in Auschwitz that are never really mentioned.

                              Mostly because they were only there so the Nazis could use them as propoganda.

                              Lack of hard documentation concerning any plans for mass gassings.

                              Seriously? Operation Reinhard clearly happened, we have documentation, firsthand accounts, and more (such as photos).

                              False, debunked artifacts of Nazi sadism touted by the Soviets, such as lamps made of human skin, soap made of human flesh, shrunken heads

                              TBH, I don't recall anyone ever trying to claim these things.

                              Admittance of forced confessions extracted from Nazi officers by torture.

                              This was a small fraction of the confessions, and almost all the other testimonies agreed with what was being said by them anyways.

                              [–][削除されました]  (31子コメント)

                              ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                              [deleted]

                                [–]PersonMcName 1ポイント2ポイント  (30子コメント)

                                ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                Then (and I apologize if this is starting to sound repetitive,) you simply don't know what you're talking about. A more recent, far more comprehensive report is 'The Rudolf Report'[1] .

                                No, I'm aware of the Rudolf report. It makes the identical errors as the Leuchter report, and also has a pretty clear bias towards Holocaust denial, in how his experiments were carried out.

                                Check out what happened to this guy - a researcher from the prestigious Max Planck Institute - afterwards.

                                What does this have to do with the actual contents of the report? Not to mention the Germany has (understandably) harsh laws against Holocaust denial, so this is hardly unexpected.

                                In 1990 The Krakow Forensic Institute also ran tests[2] which corroborated Leuchter's results.

                                Actually, they found the exact opposite, which is traces of cyanide, which proved Leuchter wrong. Also, the IHR is not exactly a non-biased or even particularly honest publication.

                                Human skin lampshades, soap from humans, shrunken heads - these were all presented as evidence at Nuremberg!

                                Can you provide a source for this?

                                The Nazi "confessions" were very few, and inaccurate.

                                When you say this, are you just accounting for anything said at Nuremberg, or also later on, because there were quite a few confessions. Also, they were very accurate, and could easily be corroborated by other independent confessions.

                                We know Hoess was tortured because his torturer wrote about it!

                                And even despite this, what he said can be corroborated with multiple non-tortured accounts that agree entirely, such as the diaries of Pery Broad, an SS man stationed at Auschwitz while Höss was the commandant and the diary kept by SS physician at Auschwitz Johann Kremer, as well as the testimony of hundreds of camp guards and victims.

                                Also, there are even SS members who have disagreed with Holocaust denial:

                                • SS-Oberscharführer Josef Klehr has said that anyone who maintains that nobody was gassed at Auschwitz must be "crazy or on the wrong". SS-Unterscharführer Oswald Kaduk has stated that he does not consider those who maintain such a thing as normal people. Hearing about Holocaust denial compelled former SS-Rottenführer Oskar Gröning to publicly speak about what he witnessed at Auschwitz, and denounce Holocaust deniers, stating: I would like you to believe me. I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I was on the ramp when the selections took place. I would like you to believe that these atrocities happened because I was there.

                                [–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (29子コメント)

                                ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                First off, I find the trial of Leuchter very ... odd. The first thing that the judge does is condemn Leuchter for his "lack of qualification" to be presenting such evidence. The very first movement of the trial is blatant character assassination before any shred of evidence is even considered.

                                That alone, to me, reeks of corruption.

                                On top of that, you do mention that "holocaust denial" is illegal in several countries. Have you stopped to think about that? This is the only historical event, the "belief" in which is enforced by law and cannot, by law, be questioned. Why?

                                Why is holocaust revisionism some kind of inquisition? You don't see moon landing conspiracy theorists, pushers of homeopathy, or other nut bags with crazy ideas being dragged before magistrates. The blatant pursuit and persecution of holocaust heretics alone lends credence to the fact that there is a powerful interest in keeping the official story intact in public opinion.

                                Truth doesn't need to be upheld at the end of a sword.

                                The fact remains that there is very little in terms of physical evidence that the gas chambers existed. The wiki page you linked mentions a few documents related to train schedules and some sparse reports of the numbers of people sent to the camps. No one denies that a lot of people were interred in the camps, but there is not a shred of any document which mentions mass extermination or gas chambers.

                                The claim that most of the gassing chambers were demolished before the Allies liberated the camps is rather.... convenient.

                                Nevertheless, all of the things you've cited do not answer the bulk of the outstanding questions brought up by Cole's investigation alone.

                                Such as, why were fake holes built into the Auschwitz chamber after the war, and why are they being shown to the public falsely as the portals through which gas was thrown? Piper himself admitted that this was not true and yet they were willfully feeding tourists false information.

                                Why the fake chimneys? Again, it appears as though someone set up these "props" to make the place seem more menacing.

                                The swimming pool? You realize there are conflicting witness reports about Auschwitz, many claim that there was a theater and the swimming pool was for use by the inmates. Why would the SS build a pool just for propaganda? That sounds like a convenient denial, and just makes no damn sense, especially being that it is never shown to anyone who tours the facility. Most people have no clue that it even exists. Propaganda my ass!

                                Furthermore, you have also failed to mention several key events leading up to the war. Firstly, the Jewish declaration of war on Germany in 1933. This is in conflict with information found on the wiki page for Operation Reinhard, which claims that death camps were already in operation as early as 1933.

                                Not to mention that Hitler was not even at the height of his power in 33, he didn't even have total control over the military at that time has he had only recently become Chancellor. How could he have organized the round up and extermination of that many people in such a short amount of time?

                                According to this page the first German act against Jews was

                                "The Nazi regime protested internationally and on April 1, 1933, organized a (one day) boycott of Jewish businesses in Germany,[2] which was the first of official anti-Jewish acts by the German government."

                                and of course was a purely reactionary course of action against what was seen as Jewish aggression.

                                It was the Jews who drew first blood on Germany, not the other way around, as our history lessons had us believe.

                                You have also failed to mention anything concerning the resulting Haavara Agreement, which again, conflicts with the mythology of a murderous Hitler. It is no secret that Hitler did not particularly like the Jewish people, and that he wanted them out of Germany. His solution was to strike a peace accord with the Zionists, and facilitate the peaceful transfer of Jews to Palestine with all of their wealth and personal possessions in-tact. It was an agreement that continued until the war made the transfers impossible. This was, in fact, the beginning of the state of Israel, a fact also not taught as part of the "hitler bad" discourse of WWII history.

                                As far as eyewitness testimony, there is a lot of controversy due to the fact that there are so many conflicting accounts. Some witnesses still claim there were gassings at camps which historians have concluded that no such thing occurred. I have serious doubts about SS witnesses, given that so many hundreds of thousands of their former brothers in arms were hanged, starved to death in POW camps after the war, hauled off to gulags, or hunted down by the Mossad. It makes too much sense that they'd say anything to appear remorseful in the face of the propaganda onslaught that was occurring after the war. I don't personally trust it.

                                If you take away all of the emotional circumstantial narratives, and stick to things that are empirically verifiable, you find that there is really very little that holds water.

                                Here is a page with some information about the false evidence of German atrocity presented at Nuremberg.

                                http://exposing-the-holocaust-hoax-archive.blogspot.com/2009/10/human-skin-lampshades-and-nazi-shrunken.html

                                There are plenty of other sources on that topic alone if that doesn't satisfy you.

                                [–]PersonMcName -1ポイント0ポイント  (27子コメント)

                                ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                First off, I find the trial of Leuchter very ... odd. The first thing that the judge does is condemn Leuchter for his "lack of qualification" to be presenting such evidence.

                                How exactly would this not be an issue? If he has no idea what he's doing, that's kinda an issue. It's the same reason that no one takes Graham Hancock seriously; he has no idea what he's talking about.

                                On top of that, you do mention that "holocaust denial" is illegal in several countries. Have you stopped to think about that? This is the only historical event, the "belief" in which is enforced by law and cannot, by law, be questioned. Why?

                                The list of the countries where it is illegal is quite small, and most cases seem to be in Germany. If you really have to ask yourself why Germany would be so against Holocaust denial, then there's nothing more I can say.

                                The blatant pursuit and persecution of holocaust heretics alone lends credence to the fact that there is a powerful interest in keeping the official story intact in public opinion.

                                Pretty sure it also has to do with Holocaust denial often going hand-in-hand with antisemitism and neo-nazism.

                                but there is not a shred of any document which mentions mass extermination or gas chambers.

                                Lolwut?

                                The claim that most of the gassing chambers were demolished before the Allies liberated the camps is rather.... convenient.

                                Or it would be, if not for the fact they we have blatant evidence they did just this

                                Such as, why were fake holes built into the Auschwitz chamber after the war, and why are they being shown to the public falsely as the portals through which gas was thrown?

                                Are these the same rooms that had fairly significant amounts of cyanide residue in them?

                                The swimming pool? You realize there are conflicting witness reports about Auschwitz, many claim that there was a theater and the swimming pool was for use by the inmates.

                                Important clarification; do we know anything about the people giving said testimonies, aside from them being holocaust survivors? It seems far more likely that there is some other reason (i.e. false memories), especially considering the overwhelming opinion by both other inmates and former Nazis (even reports written at the time). Also, you do know that the swimming pool and all that was literally made so it could be put in a propoganda video), right? You can even find the video if you look around. Also, how is this somehow unbelievable? The express purpose of the video was to hide the fact that they were actively and brutally murdering people from the general public (and also from people who would be sent there later).

                                Furthermore, you have also failed to mention several key events leading up to the war. Firstly, the Jewish declaration of war on Germany in 1933.

                                If you're talking about this, then you clearly have no clue about context. The closest that there was to "war" was a short Jewish boycott of German goods, due to the pretty blatantly anti-semetic laws and practices in place at the time (for reference, the Dachau concentration camp was opened four days earlier). The Nazis saw this as an act of aggression, which was why the Daily Express (which surprise! was a tabloid) sensationalized the title to claim Judea declared war. That's also why you never see the article, just the headline.

                                Not to mention that Hitler was not even at the height of his power in 33, he didn't even have total control over the military at that time has he had only recently become Chancellor. How could he have organized the round up and extermination of that many people in such a short amount of time?

                                First of all, because he had enough power pretty much as soon as the Reichstag fire happened, since he used it as a way to enact laws that essentially removed many civil liberties from the German population. Also, it doesn't take 10 years to build a single concentration camp.

                                According to this[1] page the first German act against Jews was

                                Is that the exact page that explained the article's context? Did you even read it?

                                You have also failed to mention anything concerning the resulting Haavara Agreement[2] , which again, conflicts with the mythology of a murderous Hitler.

                                I go into detail about it in other comments in this thread.

                                • First of all, that doesn't magically mean the Wannsee Conference never happened, and the same with Operation Reinhard. Secondly, the plan became impossible to implement after Germany invaded Poland in 1939.

                                It is no secret that Hitler did not particularly like the Jewish people, and that he wanted them out of Germany.

                                And the winner of understatement of the year is /u/tinkert0y.

                                As far as eyewitness testimony, there is a lot of controversy due to the fact that there are so many conflicting accounts.

                                Considering that 99% of the testimony (both survivor and Nazi) seems to agree with each other, I question where you go this from.

                                Some witnesses still claim there were gassings at camps which historians have concluded that no such thing occurred.

                                [Citation needed]

                                I have serious doubts about SS witnesses, given that so many hundreds of thousands of their former brothers in arms were hanged, starved to death in POW camps after the war, hauled off to gulags, or hunted down by the Mossad.

                                Frankly, this just sounds like a cop out. It's like arguing the moon landing was faked, but refusing to accept any proof from NASA. Also, you don't account for the many, many personal journals that were recovered, that agree with the rest of the testimonies and pieces of evidence.

                                If you take away all of the emotional circumstantial narratives, and stick to things that are empirically verifiable, you find that there is really very little that holds water.

                                Which is extremely ironic, given that you've outright claimed the Leuchter report to be fact.

                                http://exposing-the-holocaust-hoax-archive.blogspot.com/2009/10/human-skin-lampshades-and-nazi-shrunken.html[3]

                                First of all, the site is actually called "exposingtheholocausthoax.com"? That will definitely not be biased in the slightest. Secondly, their entire argument seems to hinge on one single sentence from a single testimony. That's nowhere near as important as most Holocaust deniers seem to claim it was.

                                There are plenty of other sources on that topic alone if that doesn't satisfy you.

                                Such as? And please don't link me something like Stormfront.

                                [–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (26子コメント)

                                ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                Yeah, so why don't we stop all of this semantic back-and-forth, and you can just list for all of us all of the factual empirical evidence that 6 million jews were exterminated in gas chambers.

                                That excludes anything circumstantial, including witness statements.

                                Oh, and speaking of bias, you dismiss the article about the lampshade and soap simply on the basis of what site it's on? How about judge the content of the article. Most of it is taken from the written record from the Neuremberg archives.

                                [–]PersonMcName -1ポイント0ポイント  (25子コメント)

                                ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                Yeah, so why don't we stop all of this semantic back-and-forth, and you can just list for all of us all of the factual empirical evidence that 6 million jews were exterminated in gas chambers.

                                So in other words, you refuse to accept my explanation of the many flaws in your theory?

                                That excludes anything circumstantial, including witness statements.

                                Because they are somehow worthless? Or they just don't agree with your opinion?

                                Oh, and speaking of bias, you dismiss the article about the lampshade and soap simply on the basis of what site it's on? How about judge the content of the article. Most of it is taken from the written record from the Neuremberg archives.

                                If you looked at what I wrote, you'd see that on top of the issue of bias (which wasn't even the main issue I had with it), there are actually some serious flaws in the article; notably that they took a single sentence of a single testimony and claimed it was something constantly brought up and repeatedly claimed.

                                [–][deleted] -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

                                His video convinced me the holocaust is a holohoax. There's too many holes for me to give the traditionalist story any credit. Not somewhere I wanted to go, but facts are facts. It's a myth and a scam that jews have played like a fiddle for their own financial and political benefit.

                                [–]ct_warlock -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

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                                ...and did you move onto the hating of Jews, black people and being a Nazi immediately after that, or did you hold those other beliefs prior to watching the documentary, so that holocaust denial just seemed like a natural additional belief set to add to your collection??

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                                [–]womans_unclean_loins 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

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                                it did use "np.reddit....." you fucking stupid bot.