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It's time for a break: About the recent mess & temporary new rules (self.Bitcoin)

theymos が 投稿 - stickied post

Unfortunately, I was on vacation this weekend, so I was unable to prevent /r/Bitcoin from becoming messy. Sorry about that. I and other moderators more-or-less cleaned it up. Report anything that we missed.

Because people are still probably in a "troll-happy" mood from the lack of moderation, moderation will be increased for a while. Everyone needs some time to calm down. In particular, posts about anything especially emotionally-charged will be deleted unless they introduce some very substantial new ideas about the subject. This includes the max block size debate (any side) and /r/Bitcoin moderation. Also, people are continuously spamming links to inferior clones of /r/Bitcoin and the XT subreddit -- these links will be removed and the posters banned unless the links are remarkably appropriate for the given situation. When this sticky is removed, the rules will return to what they were previously.

It is possible that some people have been or will be banned too readily due to the increased moderation. If this happens to you, mail /r/Bitcoin with a justification of your actions, then wait 2 days and mail again if there's no satisfactory response, then wait 4 days, then 8, 16, 32, etc. If your mail to /r/Bitcoin is too high-volume, we may block all further mail from you, which will make it impossible for your to appeal your ban.

About XT

/r/Bitcoin exists to serve Bitcoin. XT will, if/when its hardfork is activated, diverge from Bitcoin and create a separate network/currency. Therefore, it and services that support it should not be allowed on /r/Bitcoin. In the extremely unlikely event that the vast majority of the Bitcoin economy switches to XT and there is a strong perception that XT is the true Bitcoin, then the situation will flip and we should allow only submissions related to XT. In that case, the definition of "Bitcoin" will have changed. It doesn't make sense to support two incompatible networks/currencies -- there's only one Bitcoin, and /r/Bitcoin serves only Bitcoin.

If a hardfork has near-unanimous agreement from Bitcoin experts and it's also supported by the vast majority of Bitcoin users and companies, we can predict with high accuracy that this new network/currency will take over the economy and become the new definition of Bitcoin. (Miners don't matter in this, and it's not any sort of vote.) This sort of hardfork can probably be adopted on /r/Bitcoin as soon as it has been determined that the hardfork is not absolutely against the spirit of Bitcoin (inflating out-of-schedule, for example). For right now, there will always be too much controversy around any hardfork that increases the max block size, but this will probably change as there's more debate and research, and as block space actually becomes more scarce. I could see some kind of increase gaining consensus in as soon as 6 months, though it would have to be much smaller than the increase in XT for ~everyone to agree on it so soon.

There's a substantial difference between discussion of a proposed Bitcoin hardfork (which was previously always allowed here, even though I strongly disagree with many things posted) and promoting software that is programmed to diverge into a competing network/currency. The latter is clearly against the established rules of /r/Bitcoin, and while Bitcoin's technology will continue working fine no matter what people do, even the attempt at splitting Bitcoin up like this will harm the Bitcoin ecosystem and economy.

Why is XT considered an altcoin even though it hasn't broken away from Bitcoin yet?

Because it is intentionally programmed to diverge from Bitcoin, I don't consider it to be important that XT is not distinct from Bitcoin quite yet. If someone created a fork of Bitcoin Core that allowed miners to continue mining 25 BTC per block forever, would that be "Bitcoin" even though it doesn't split from the Bitcoin currency/network quite yet? (I'd say no.)

Can I still talk about hard fork proposals on /r/Bitcoin?

Right now, not unless you have something really new and substantial to say.

After this sticky is removed, it will be OK to discuss any hardfork to Bitcoin, but not any software that hardforks without consensus, since that software is not Bitcoin.

If XT is an altcoin then why aren't sidechains or Lightning altcoins?

/r/Bitcoin is about the Bitcoin currency and network. Lightning allows you to move the Bitcoin currency. Sidechains are on-topic in general because they are a possibly-useful addition to the Bitcoin network. It is possible that some specific sidechains might not be on-topic -- this isn't clear to me yet.

XT is programmed to create a separate currency and network, so it is not Bitcoin.

How do you know that there is no consensus?

Consensus is a high bar. It is not the same as a majority. In general, consensus means that there is near-unanimity. In the very particular case of a hardfork, "consensus" means "there is no noticeable probability that the hardfork will cause the Bitcoin economy to split into two or more non-negligible pieces".

I know almost for certain that there is no consensus to the change in XT because Bitcoin core developers Wladamir, Greg, and Pieter are opposed to it. That's enough to block consensus. And it works both ways: if Gavin and Mike are strongly opposed to Pieter's BIP, then this will also block consensus on that BIP.

Other than the core devs, big Bitcoin companies (especially Coinbase, BitPay, and exchanges) could block consensus, as could large groups of average users who are collectively capable of making reasonable arguments and exerting economic force (probably not just random unknown people complaining about nothing).

Even though consensus is such a high bar, I think that in practice any hardfork that gets consensus among the Bitcoin Core devs and makes it into Bitcoin Core has a good chance of succeeding. But again, the developers would just be spearheading the effort, and many others could block them if necessary.

But with such a high bar, 8 MB blocks will be impossible!

If consensus can never be reached on one particular hardfork proposal, then the hardfork should never occur. Just because you want something doesn't mean that it's ever reasonable for you to hijack Bitcoin from the people who don't want it, even if your side is the majority (which it isn't in this case). This isn't some democratic country where you can always get your way with sufficient politicking. Get consensus, live without the change, or create your own altcoin.

Hard forks are supposed to be hard. While some hard forks will probably be necessary in the long run, these hard forks will need to have consensus and be done properly or Bitcoin will die due to the economy being constantly shattered into several pieces, or as a side-effect of forcing through technically unsound changes that the majority of experts disagree with (like XT's 8MB block size).

Don't most experts want 8 MB blocks soon?

Not by any reasonable idea of "most experts" I can think of. For example, among people with expert flair on /r/Bitcoin, AFAIK any large near-term increase is opposed by nullc, petertodd, TheBlueMatt, luke-jr, pwuille, adam3us, maaku7, and laanwj. A large near-term increase is supported by gavinandresen, jgarzik, and mike_hearn. I don't know about MeniRosenfeld. (Those 12 people are everyone with expert flair.)

I've heard concerns that some experts who oppose any large near-term increase have conflicts of interest. But many of them have been expressing the same concerns for years, so it's unlikely that any recent possible conflict of interest is influencing them. Also, if they believed that increasing the max block size would help Bitcoin as a whole, what reason would they have to prevent this? I don't see the incentive.

We don't need to trust the above list of experts, of course. But I for one have found the conservative position's arguments to be much more convincing than the huge-increase position's arguments. It's not reasonable to say, "You know a lot more than I do, and I don't see any fault in your arguments, but you must be trying to trick me due to this potential conflict of interest, so I'm going to ignore you."

Who are you working for?

I am not an employee of anyone but myself. As far as I know my only incentives for engaging in this policy are to make Bitcoin as strong as possible for ideological reasons, and in the long-term to increase the Bitcoin price. When I make policies, I do so because I believe that they are right. I am not being paid for my work on /r/Bitcoin or for creating certain policies.

It would have been far easier for me to simply allow XT. If I was a politician or a business, I probably would have bowed to community demands already. And on several occasions I have very seriously considered the possibility that I could be wrong here and the community right. But in the end I just don't see any way to both reasonably and consistently deal with XT and cases similar to XT except to ban them on /r/Bitcoin. Additionally, I am further motivated by my knowledge that a "hostile hardfork" like the one in XT is very harmful for Bitcoin no matter what the change entails, and that the change in XT is in fact amazingly bad.

See also

See my previous posts on this subject and the discussion in their child comments. Keep in mind that my comments are often downvoted to the point of being hidden by default.

Also, someone who could be Satoshi posted here. This email address was actually used by Satoshi before he left, and the email apparently did come from that email address legitimately (not a spoof). Whether he's actually Satoshi or not, I agree with what he's saying.

About majoritarianism

Just because many people want something doesn't make it right. There is example after example of this in history. You might reasonably believe that democracy is the best we can do in government (though I disagree), but it's not the best we can do with private and independent forums on the free market.

If you disagree with /r/Bitcoin policy, you can do one of these things:

  • Try to convince us moderators that we are wrong. We have thought about these issues very deeply already, so just stating your opinion is insufficient. You need to make an argument from existing policy, from an ethical axiom which we might accept, or from utilitarianism.
  • Move to a different subreddit.
  • Accept /r/Bitcoin's policies even though you don't agree with them. Maybe post things that are counter to our policies in a different subreddit.

Do not violate our rules just because you disagree with them. This will get you banned from /r/Bitcoin, and evading this ban will get you (and maybe your IP) banned from Reddit entirely.

If 90% of /r/Bitcoin users find these policies to be intolerable, then I want these 90% of /r/Bitcoin users to leave. Both /r/Bitcoin and these people will be happier for it. I do not want these people to make threads breaking the rules, demanding change, asking for upvotes, making personal attacks against moderators, etc. Without some real argument, you're not going to convince anyone with any brains -- you're just wasting your time and ours. The temporary rules against blocksize and moderation discussion are in part designed to encourage people who should leave /r/Bitcoin to actually do so so that /r/Bitcoin can get back to the business of discussing Bitcoin news in peace.

The purpose of moderation is to make the community a good one, which sometimes includes causing people to leave.

This thread

You can post comments about moderation policy here, but nowhere else.

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トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]jratcliff63367 32ポイント33ポイント x2 (6子コメント)

So, does this mean if bitcoin-core proposes a hard fork to accommodate a block size change, discussion of it will be banned from this forum?

In a decentralized system, like bitcoin, what makes one fork of the bitcoin software inherently more or less legitimate than another?

[–]Noosterdam 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

The name Core, obviously. I mean, it's clearly the core of Bitcoin just by the title. /s

Fast forward to 2020: all the implementations are named things like Bitcoin Reference, Bitcoin Backbone, Bitcoin Standard Edition, etc.

Equating Core (or even XT if it becomes the popular implementation) with Bitcoin and requiring consensus in Core to make changes is a centralist paradigm because it implies that the Core committers are the anointed ones.

I also like how theymos talks about consensus among experts and says, "Those 12 people are everyone with expert flare." Yeah, and who gave them that flare? Circular reasoning pervades the entire argument.

[–]waterlesscloud 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

You've got to go. Your usefulness as a moderator here has come to an end.

[–]knight222 58ポイント59ポイント  (4子コメント)

If 90% of /r/Bitcoin users find these policies to be intolerable, then I want these 90% of /r/Bitcoin users to leave.

Wow. Just wow.

If consensus can never be reached on one particular hardfork proposal, then the hardfork should never occur. Just because you want something doesn't mean that it's ever reasonable for you to hijack Bitcoin from the people who don't want it.

And I guess it's reasonable for YOU to hijack it?

[–]thorvszeus 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

Since theymos wants us to leave, and we really should considering how harmful it is having a person like theymos controlling the 2 largest forums, where should we go?

There are a number of alternative bitcoin subreddits but if we don't use any of them in mass they won't gain any traction.

So here are the top generic bitcoin subreddits by current users:
/r/bitcoin_uncensored
/r/bitcoinxt
/r/btc

Personally I think /r/btc has the best name, however it's not very popular so I suggest we migrate to /r/bitcoin_uncensored or both if you want.

Even better would be to use a multireddit. Here is one I put together.

[–]ellis1884uk 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY BRO! ...what a twat.

[–]Spats_McGee 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

Says it all doesn't it? Even if everyone in the room disagrees with me, you're all still wrong. This is the community leader we want?

[–]Bitcoinopoly 40ポイント41ポイント  (2子コメント)

'Unless you already have 90% consensus, then you need to completely shut your mouth about any proposed hard fork because it is too "contentious" and might give the mods a headache. Any hard fork that doesn't instantly gain consensus should never be talked about unless you have some unbelievable, never-before-heard-by-mankind level of information about it. If you do have such info, then you get to make one single thread about it, and one thread only, so you better make it a thread that is so good that 90% of bitcoiners are in favor of the hard fork. If that one thread doesn't get 90% approval, then tough luck Chuck, because you will need to uncover yet another Earth-shattering, mind-bending, science-defying piece of info about the hard fork if you ever want to make even a single more thread about it. But if you want to make spam posts about shitty alts like Paycoin then, please, be my guest.' - Theymos

I wish this was a crazy exaggeration, but that is exactly what was said in OP, except using normal, honest language. This entire post is just more of the same garbage that caused the whole "mess" this weekend.

[–]shadymess 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

How can something already have 90% consensus if it hasn't been proposed and discussed? Does he want something to get 90% consensus magically?

[–]targetpro 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Circular logic is circular.

[–]targetpro 25ポイント26ポイント  (1子コメント)

"XT will, if/when its hardfork is activated, diverge from Bitcoin..."

That's one perspective, and thanks for sharing it. Another equally valuable perspective is:

  • If/when XT activated, Bitcoin will become BitcoinXT.

[–]nobodybelievesyou -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It is sort of funny that you got gold and a mountain of upvotes for literally repeating what theymos, demon dictator of /r/bitcoin, said in the post you are replying to.

In the extremely unlikely event that the vast majority of the Bitcoin economy switches to XT and there is a strong perception that XT is the true Bitcoin, then the situation will flip and we should allow only submissions related to XT.

[–]targetpro 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

"...among people with expert flair on /r/Bitcoin, AFAIK any large near-term increase is opposed by [most of them]..."

Those are all devs you've chosen to flair. And now you're drawing upon what you believe to be a majority from that group, to justify an argument.

Something about that should strike you as being as absurd as if I awarded (who I believed to be) the most thoughtful commentators a "Targetpro Award of Excellence" and then began polling this group, in justification of my beliefs.

[–]smartfbrankings 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Who do you feel is missing?

[–]statoshi 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just to name a few:

  • Cory Fields
  • Jorge Timon
  • Alex Morcos
  • Andreas Schildbach
  • Manuel Aráoz
  • Sergio Demian Lerner

[–]kcbitcoin 41ポイント42ポイント  (1子コメント)

I thought this subreddit was finally becoming a free platform for discussion until I saw this post. It's becoming more bureaucratic and censored.

That is it. I'm unsubbing. Farewell my fellow bitcoiners. Hope we meet again one day on a platform with true freedom of speech.

[–]_EuroTrash_ 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

Keep in mind that my comments are often downvoted to the point of being hidden by default.

[–]Xearoii 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah if this wasn't stickied it'd never make the front page lol

[–]Spike__Jonze 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

Wow what a piece of shit attempt at moderating. This subreddit doesn't belong to you , it belongs to the community. Why are moderators everywhere growing such a big ego and going the god complex.

[–]smartfbrankings -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Actually, it does belong to him, that's how subreddits work.

[–]TheAwer 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you disagree with /r/Bitcoin policy, you can do one of these things:

  • Move to a different subreddit.

If 90% of /r/Bitcoin users find these policies to be intolerable, then I want these 90% of /r/Bitcoin users to leave. Both /r/Bitcoin and these people will be happier for it.

/r/bitcoin_uncensored is one such alternate subreddit.

(Dear mods: I have just expanded on what /u/theymos has said. I even feel that /u/theymos would appreciate me helping those who aren't wanted here to leave. As such, I can't see how you would remove this post, but if you do, please explain your justification.)

[–]Petersurda 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

What I find interesting is that it looks like the majority of this subreddit readers has a different idea about what this subreddit should be about than the moderators, judging on the downvotes they get in this thread. To me that indicates a fail. The mods are basically shooting themselves in the foot, no matter how they defend it.

I also find it curious that hard forks shouldn't be discussed. What about bitcoin-core 0.8 which caused an unintentional hard fork, or spv miners which caused a hard fork last month?

What about the other features of bitcoin-xt like relaying double spends and allegedly better performance?

What about other suggestions for block size increase, even from opponents of the approach of bitcoin-xt, like Pieter's recent BIP?

Due to these inconsistencies, I find the reasoning of the mods irrational. They do not appear to have been thought through.

I personally do not have a strong opinion regarding the block size. In cases like this, I prefer experimenting to talking, therefore I disagree the block size increase in bitcoin-xt is a bad thing. I don't know if I'll switch to it but now this option has been made easier.

[–]RedNero 57ポイント58ポイント  (1子コメント)

Wow. You still didn't learn.

[–]Logical007 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

The ignorance...it's insane.

[–]bitsko 33ポイント34ポイント  (5子コメント)

The first definition of consensus is 'general agreement'.

The miners, merchants, and users make up Bitcoin. The code changes they all choose together becomes bitcoin. I'm not seeing where developer consensus fits into the reality of the situation with the open source software...?

[–]Bitcoinopoly 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

It doesn't, at all.

[–]trdtrd 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Great point, theymos is completely wrong when he says without dev consensus, economic consensus is very unlikely. Sure the network might split into multiple pieces, kind of like the tiny group that wanted to keep 50 BTC blocks after the first halving. Soon they realized their efforts were futile when compared to wider community consensus.

[–]stoicbn 13ポイント14ポイント  (7子コメント)

In the extremely unlikely event that the vast majority of the Bitcoin economy switches to XT and there is a strong perception that XT is the true Bitcoin

The bitcoin economy runs on Bitcoin, which is by definition the longest and most agreed-upon chain.

Bitcoin XT only occurs when a majority of miners have showed support - I'm sure you know this already. So it's strange to me to doubt that, if it occurs, it will gain favor as "the" Bitcoin. How could 75% of miners be defeated for control of the network? Or rather, wouldn't 75% agreement be considered a fairly strong perception?

Thanks for the opportunity to communicate without fear of random ban, a safe place to discuss mod policy is definitely necessary atm

[–]thieflar 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I couldn't have said it better myself. Do you have a response to this gentleman's question, /u/theymos?

[–]smartfbrankings -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

longest and most agreed-upon chain.

You forgot the word "valid" in there. Unless you are an SPV user.

[–]LoLPinkyy 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why are you still here.

[–]elux 19ポイント20ポイント  (3子コメント)

Unsubbed. :(

[–]scotty321 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is bullshit.

[–]ywecur 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

I cannot understand why you would impose such strict enforcement of the "on topic" rule regarding bitcoinXT, yet you allow unrelated libertarian propaganda on a daily basis.

[–]StarMaged 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

We try not to allow that sort of thing, it's just that most of the mods are too afraid to remove it. You can see why.

[–]xd1gital 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not sure that you know the reason for this mess is the censorship not XT!!!

[–]imaginary_username 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Holy cow theymos, I thought thing are calming down, and then you appeared. You know you're pretty much the one who started this mess right?

Do us all a favor, stay out of this, we might yet resolve this ourselves.

[–]Asteroid__B612 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

If moderation doesn't work out, I hear the Chinese thought-police are hiring.

[–]BitsenBytes 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe you should start with yourself and think about why you want to impose your views on everyone instead of just moderating discussions? Is it because you believe so much in your own personal cause? You are a typical authoritarian, you just don't think of yourself that way because you're probably a pretty decent guy in day to day life. But give someone a little power and what do they do? Impose their ideas on the masses because they believe they think they know the issues better than everyone...secretly they believe themselves superior in knowledge and intelligence. Sound familiar?

[–]TotesMessenger 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)

[–]hloo 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

You've succeeded in making this forum a complete joke. Congratulations. You've lost all credibility.

[–]drwasho 33ポイント34ポイント  (3子コメント)

What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard.

At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought.

Everyone in this subreddit is now dumber for having read it.

I award you no upvotes... And may God have mercy on your moderation.

[–]yayalorde 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Who the hell are you anyways?

[–]descartablet 15ポイント16ポイント  (7子コメント)

It was fine until I read the satoshi email. If he wants to be heard he would have signed or moved his stash

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]Xearoii 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This forum is one of the most bizarre corners of the internet.

    [–]sendmeyourprivatekey 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yeah well, you know, that's just like your opinion, man.

    [–]pgrigor 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Bitcoin is as consensus does.

    [–]statoshi 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Because people are still probably in a "troll-happy" mood from the lack of moderation.

    My understanding is that this was most of yesterday. Personally, I found it to be glorious. Reddit has a decentralized moderation feature: it's called upvoting and downvoting. Seems to work rather well!

    [–]Burgerhamburg 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It doesn't work so well when legitimate comments get downvoted into oblivion, which has been happening a lot recently.

    [–]smartfbrankings -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    You are confusing a moderation feature with a hivemind creating feature.

    [–]btcgeek_rule 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    What's the current position on posts related to altcoins on r/bitcoin? I ask because previously there were a number of posts on several altcoins (both promising ones and outright scams) that were allowed on this sub. It is unclear to me how these are going to be moderated going forward. Is a discussion around, say, Ethereum, allowed? What about an altcoin that a Bitcoin mining pool might start?

    [–]nappiral 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Move along nothing to see here.

    [–]bitcoinstarter 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Pitchforks still out ?

    [–]SundoshiNakatoto 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This post is 32% upvoted... very telling!

    [–]trdtrd 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Fuck this man. This is fucking bullshit. No way this BS will last. We the people got the power over this sub.

    [–]i_am_replaceable 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I fucking knew it. Nice casual mention of "Lighting network." Conflict of interest and nothing more here. I am leaving the sub as you wish. I recommend everyone do the same.

    [–]ivanbny 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    If 90% of /r/Bitcoin users find these policies to be intolerable, then I want these 90% of /r/Bitcoin users to leave.

    Saying that you want things to calm down out of one corner of your mouth while stating the above out of the other corner of your mouth doesn't paint a good picture of stewardship. It feels very, very much like you want to start a war and that this is your means of planting a flag in the ground. I have a strong feeling that you're going to regret your actions with suppressing the community interest - at the least, it's going to diminish your reputation and role within Bitcoin.

    [–]Sapian 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Sadly this is misguided over moderation and dictatorship.

    I'm unsubbing and regretfully so, you think mods/supporters of disruptive technology would be more accepting of talks in all realms related to the technology but that is not the case here, clearly.

    Ironic indeed.

    [–]MrRGnome 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Under what conditions would you consider your judgement possibly flawed? Lay out for me the terms by which you would consider changing your mind or hearing reasonable argument, because your views about what defines a fork and makes something "no longer bitcoin" would strongly imply that hard forks which occurred previous to this one came from coins which you do not consider bitcoin. I see no way to rationalize your position on the XT fork not being bitcoin while still believing that bitcoin was still bitcoin before previous hard forks. It seems by your unreasonably narrow definition the only real bitcoin network is the one that has existed since the last hard fork, and whatever it was before that was not bitcoin.

    If you have some qualifier for what makes this fork substantively different, I ask what would need to happen to make it the same in your all-powerful-and-uniquely-capable-of-rational-judgement eyes.

    You already made an absurd argument regarding the tyranny of the majority citing historical precedents so I know that the majority consensus isn't going to change your mind, and while I will be the first to say this community is a zeal with pitchforks and no reason them being that way doesn't make you or your line of reasoning any more correct.

    Define the conditions under which you will relent and relinquish your moderation role.

    [–]targetpro 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    If you disagree with /r/Bitcoin[22] policy, you can do one of these things:

    • Try to convince us moderators that we are wrong. We have thought about these issues very deeply already, so just stating your opinion is insufficient. You need to make an argument from existing policy, from an ethical axiom which we might accept, or from utilitarianism.

    Nope, never works. Adorable concept, but people extremely rarely ever change their beliefs after hearing a few good oppositional arguments. As much as people like to debate this, that and everything in between, polls have consistently found that arguments don't sway opinion. They only help to further substantiate opinions already held.

    And if you question this, just ask yourself. What arguments would convince you to raise the block limit (as an example)? The word "none" will be your honest answer. Chalk it up to human nature and move on, but don't pretend that this represents a valid avenue to change your identified "policies".

    • Move to a different subreddit.

    • Accept /r/Bitcoin's policies even though you don't agree with them. Maybe post things that are counter to our policies in a different subreddit.

    Some might consider the alternate wording of this to be: "My way or the highway!" I wouldn't go there if I were a mod. It's been a pretty unpopular stance since the time of the French Revolution.