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Northern Ireland pastor to be prosecuted for calling Islam a satanic belief : news (np.reddit.com)

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[–]gnujack[S] 16ポイント17ポイント  (5子コメント)

In light of the article about the Swiss priest, I thought this was interesting.

Bear in mind that in Northern Ireland, the Queen is also head of their church, and one of her titles is Defender of the Faith. In this day and age, if she actually defended the faith, she'd get arrested.

[–]SoyCatolica 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Does she has faith? O.o

[–]SpiSpySpi 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No the queen is only Supreme Governor of the Church of England the Church of Ireland is separate and the Queen has no part in it.

[–]pharmaninja -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Defender of the Church of England. Not of the Catholic Church.

Also note how she is the "defender" and not the "agressor."

[–]gnujack[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

The pastor in this story is not a Catholic priest, he's a protestant, although not C of E either. The C of E hasn't taken this strong of a position on anything except maybe the use of an entree fork for an appetizer.

I'm sure if you searched their writings, you'd find a King who had something equally offensive to say about the Moors, or even the Papists.

[–]Hurrah_for_Karamazov 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

Absolutely crazy. Western civilization is adamant in destroying itself as swiftly as humanly possible apparently.

[–]ARCJols 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

but mah freedoom, and my right to do whatever I want and equality

[–]theodorAdorno 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Precisely. How are we supposed to know what stupidity is out there lurking in our culture if we don't allow it to freely express itself.

I'm being completely sincere.

[–]el_chalupa 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I am troubled by the current climate, wherein public discourse is stifled with calls of "[whatever]phobia." I think people should certainly be free to disagree publicly and vehemently with something that has been said, and I'm not claiming these calls are "censorship" in any true sense of the word. Just that a steadfast refusal to meaningfully respond to something one believes is wrong, and instead to just yell until they shut up and/or recant, is a Bad Thing.

I am more troubled by the prosecution for expressing a belief. The truth or falsity, im/prudence, and in/appropriateness of the opinion or its mode of expression is neither here nor there, it is simply distressing that such an expression would become a matter of criminal inquiry. I assume there's general agreement that the heckler's veto should not be further empowered.

And finally, this is distressing because it seems that as goes Europe and the British Isles, so goes the United States, lagging but little behind. True, there is the First Amendment here, but for the most part the Constitution means what society wants it to mean, and it is only a defense insofar as there's a general desire for it to be one.

[–]Morkelebmink 12ポイント13ポイント  (12子コメント)

This is why blasphemy laws are unjust.

That pastor SHOULD have the right to call Islam a satanic belief, so what.

It's just words.

The right to offend others is critical to free speech.

I'm offended everytime a christian tells me I deserve to burn in hell, but I still think they should have the right to do so.

[–]RasslinsnotRasslin 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not wrong about Muslims tbh

[–]theodorAdorno -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for writing this. Now we know how much more work we have to do educating people in this subreddit. (Luckily, not too many in this case)

:)

[–]theodorAdorno 1ポイント2ポイント  (12子コメント)

Ok. That's the Church of England. Here's what our catechism says:

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

If you call yourself Catholic, and you agree with this idiot who says Islam is Satanic, you've got some more thinking to do.

Note: nothing says "I bitterly agree and have nothing to say" like an unexplained downvote. So downvote away! But be warned, it feeds my ego.

[–]you_know_what_you 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

That paragraph basically says nothing tbh. I can profess to do lots of things. Any tiny dive into our differences clears everything up (they do not recognize Christ as God).

The paragraph there is neither a validation of Islam (of course), nor a call for leaving them unevangelized or their beliefs untouchable, so not sure why it's material here. There are other suitable biblical and catechism passages on prudence in discourse and treating people kindly and with love (which may yes include avoiding provocative language!).

[–]theodorAdorno 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You don't see how the passage is at odds with the claim that Islam is Satanic.

Anyway, it goes in from there...
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

[–]BlaineTog 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It pretty clearly rules out calling them "satanic," though.

[–]gnujack[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You read the C of E catechism. Have you read the unedited remarks of James McConnell?

Also, should this guy be getting prosecuted because he disagrees with the C of E; or any other religion? Is a man who disagrees with the C of E going to the Tower of London?

Better build an addition to the tower.

[–]theodorAdorno -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

You read the C of E catechism.

no

[–]mmnaddaf12 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

These guys are all idiots then

[–]theodorAdorno 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Try this. Go to your link, and press ctrl+f (or command+f on Apple), and search the page text for "satan"

edit: Yeah, okay, it says "precursor to the anti-christ" and other uninspired and in-authoritative things. This is why they are not in the Catechism, thank God.

[–]mmnaddaf12 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

ok

[–]theodorAdorno 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

number of authoritative quotes in the link: zero

but I know.. the Church has developed away from you. You're the real flock.

[–]mmnaddaf12 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Forgot to mention to read all of the CCC regarding this

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world."

According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.

Anyway if you believe Islam is the religion of peace, walk into Saudi Arabia with a Crucifix on and see what happens. God Bless

[–]theodorAdorno 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The part you bolded speaks not about Islam, but about "men"

In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them

This includes religions bigotry in contradiction to the church's acceptance of people of goodwill in other faiths.

[–]mmnaddaf12 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly. Mohammad displayed limits and errors professing his religion.

[–]brahmaputrastt -4ポイント-3ポイント  (31子コメント)

Calling another belief satanic is definitely in the wrong.

Especially knowing that different Muslims interprets their holy text and practices their belief differently. Calling an entire belief satanic because a few of it's follower interpret a part of the text in a violent manner is irresponsible.

This is less about free speech and more about being responsible adults. Sure you are allowed to voice your opinions; but why voice it in public knowing it will generate hatred and offend people who are practicing their belief peacefully everyday?

If you having something against their belief, the proper course of action is to talk it out, isn't it? See how common Muslims interpret the holy text he deemed as Satanic, and see if his opinion might not have been his best. Make Muslim friends in the process. Bring in joy and peace to the world. Or something better than causing news and hatred.

[–]Hurrah_for_Karamazov 15ポイント16ポイント  (17子コメント)

...what if the belief is Satanic...?

[–]brahmaputrastt 7ポイント8ポイント  (16子コメント)

Entirely satanic? Made to be Satanic? Then yes.

I live in a multi religious country and as far as I know Islam is hardly a Satanic belief. Only a minority of them interpret the belief in a way that we can condemn as satanic.

[–]LimeHatKitty 4ポイント5ポイント  (15子コメント)

You haven't read and studied Koran, then. Trust me, only satan would encourage such a religion.

[–]brahmaputrastt 5ポイント6ポイント  (13子コメント)

I refuse to call Islam a religion encouraged by Satan.

There are graphic verses in the Koran, but as the the majority of Muslim scholar said, there are abrogations and the open interpretations of the verses.

Our Holy Bible also contains graphic verses as well, but it boils down to us interpreting the text as well. Other religions are the same. The fact remains that the majority of Muslims are peaceful people living normal life practicing religion; it's just that they never got the spotlight amidst all the violence a minority of them committed.

[–]mmnaddaf12 4ポイント5ポイント  (12子コメント)

Don't compare the bible to the Quran. The Quran is the supposed word of god given verbatim to Mohammad with specific teachings and commands. The Bible is a compilation of texts ranging of a multitude of genres. Anything graphic in the bible is just depicting the lives of people who have lived in ancient times not condoning evil.

The fact remains that the majority of Muslims are peaceful people living normal life practicing religion; it's just that they never got the spotlight amidst all the violence a minority of them committed.

So? The majority of Catholics are apathetic, lukewarm, and no nothing about their faith. Does that mean the are true to their religion? No.

Just a side note the leader of hassbalah is a direct descendants of Mohammad from his daughter Fatima. Is he living a peaceful life?

I don't and will never understand the Islamic sympathy on the West. Its shameful especially as a Christian to defend such a faith.

[–]apophis-pegasus 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Does that mean the are true to their religion? No.

Very well then, how would Muslims presumably act if they were true to their religion, and why do you think so?

[–]mmnaddaf12 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

ISIS, Al qaeda, Hassbalah, Boko Haram, Ottoman Empire, etc.

From my previous comment:the leader of hassbalah is a direct descendant of Fatima, Mohammad's daughter.

They all follow in their founder's ,Mohammad, footsteps as being warlords/terrorists.

A commentor once said in a previous thread: " Extreme Catholics are saints, extreme Muslims are terrorists."

[–]apophis-pegasus -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

ISIS, Al qaeda, Hassbalah, Boko Haram, Ottoman Empire, etc

And how are they "true Muslims?"

leader of hassbalah is a direct descendant of Fatima, Mohammad's daughter.

And? Are we judging people for the actions of their relatives?

Extreme Catholics are saints, extreme Muslims are terrorists."

Except for when they conquer natives, burn heretics etc, right?

[–]mmnaddaf12 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

And? Are we judging people for the actions of their relatives?

No. Judging his actions. Do you not know who hassan nasrallah is?

Except for when they conquer natives, burn heretics etc, right?

Do they model Christ?

Anyway for those who believe Islam is the religion of peace, walk into Saudi Arabia with a Crucifix on and see how far you get. God Bless.

[–]brahmaputrastt 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Muslims believes that Koran is the word of Allah, just as we believe that bible is the world of God.

Your words conveys to me that you never live among Muslims. I have friends who prays five times a day, and never commit any act of violence, being friends with me who are a Catholic, never calling out or offend me for having a different religion win them.

These people are the majority of Muslims. Not Hezbollah, not Al Qaeda. Media just love to portray the violent Muslims because the news about them sells like hot cakes compared to giving an insight on normal everyday Muslim lives. Even if there are a million Muslim terrorists in the world, there are a more than a Billion Muslims out there. Terrorists have been a small minority, and will always be one.

Anyways the leader of Hezbollah claimed to be one, there's no evidence backing him to be one, or so what my Muslim friends told me.

Shameful? You call accepting other people's different faith is shameful as a Catholic? I am baffled by your opinions,

[–]Thecontinentaldrift -3ポイント-2ポイント  (6子コメント)

You are a hypocrite. As a catholic I ask, what is so different about their faith? I get that they have different beliefs but that's not what I mean. What makes our religion better than theirs?

[–]mmnaddaf12 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

The fact that you are calling me a hypocrite speaks volumes.

  1. The authenticity of Holy Scripture backed with Tradition

  2. Jesus is God and Man.

  3. The Trinity

  4. Jesus saved us from sin through his death on the cross.

If you believe none of these or a portion then of course Christianity is no better then Islam. Islam denies all of these essential teachings of Christianity. Jesus gave us His Church with the guidance of the Holy Spirit for our salvation.

The fullness of Truth is only found in the one holy and apostolic Church.

[–]theodorAdorno 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

[–]mmnaddaf12 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

these profess to hold the faith of Abraham

The Church has 'these profess to hold' gives no indication of agreement that they follow the faith of Abraham in truth, but acknowledges points of agreement as a means for them to use as a bridge to understanding the Truth.

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world."

According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.

Please continue to read the Catechism.

Also here are what saints have to say

[–]stagda 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

curious as to what you are basing this off

[–]gnujack[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

It's not so much that the pastor was right or wrong, it's that theological debate is a potential crime.

[–]pharmaninja 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Inciting religious hatred is a crime in the UK and Northern Ireland.

It's particularly important that this law is enforced in a place like Northern Ireland, which has had so much violence because of religion.

[–]gnujack[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's particularly important that this law is enforced in a place like Northern Ireland, which has had so much violence because of religion.

Yeah, after the laws against guns, bombings, riots, arson, and knee-capping all failed, it was that law against inciting religious hatred that solved everything.

[–]pharmaninja -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Unfortunately some people in every religion are extremists, hell bent on causing divisions and trouble.

I'm sorry that this is you.

[–]gnujack[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's it! I'm reporting you to the inquisition!

[–]bam2_89 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

Islam is the worship of Baal. Prior to the expansion of Islam, each Arab tribe had it's own "allah" which was its principal deity. The Quraysh tribe (Muhammad's) had the moon god Hubal as its allah. Hubal is an obvious cognate. Both had a crescent moon as their symbol as Islam does today. When Muhammad spread Islam, he wasn't introducing a new god, his old one was taking over.

[–]stagda 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

This is 100% wrong. Ask Western or Islamic Islamic scholars. Or the catechism, and they will say Allah means God in reference to the same God we worship.

[–]bam2_89 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

No it is not. Hubal was the principal god of the Quraysh tribe. It was their version of Baal, which they recieved by way of Moab. And Islam maintains the same symbol as its own. Muhammad's father was named Abd'allah. Which allah were they talking about? He died before Islam was founded.

[–]stagda 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

It is not a subject of academic debate, Allah refers to God. Saying that Muhammad instituted worship of a lunar diety demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of the story of the Quran. The Quraysh opposed Muhammad specifically because he would not tolerate the worship of the traditional pagan gods of the various tribes in Mecca.

[–]bam2_89 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Allah was the chief god of each tribe. If it was the Judeo-Christian god, why was his father named Abd'allah? For the Quraysh tribe, Allah refers to Hubal. Muhammad was part of the Quraysh tribe. If it had another meaning, why continue with the term?

[–]stagda 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The etymology of the word Allah is to refer to a god. On that you are not wrong. But when Muslims say Allah they mean God, the God of Abraham. This is a fact that both the Catholic Church and Academia support. I honestly don't understand what role you think the Qurayesh had on Islam. It was Muhammad who got them renounce their pagan gods for God, not the other way around. Do you believe Arabic speaking Christians also refer to Hubal when they say Allah?

[–]bam2_89 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Muhammad was a member of the tribe. He was born worshipping Hubal with the rest of the pantheon. The word is not the only evidence. Hubal was the moon god whose symbol was a crescent.

[–]TRiG_Ireland 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you actually know what you're talking about, or are you just repeating some half-remembered half-understood bullshit you heard some time? Because it sounds like the latter.

I mean, I don't know the origins of Islam, and perhaps there's some amount of truth in what you say, but I can recognise a bullshitter when I see one. I'm Irish: bullshitting is part of our culture, and we get good at recognising it.