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Immigration Megathread - Part VIIMegathread (self.europe)

European UnionModeratorsOfEurope2 が 投稿

Previous Megathreads

Immigration Megathread - Part I

Immigration Megathread - Part II

Immigration Megathread - Part III

Immigration Megathread - Part IV

Immigration Megathread - Part V

Immigration Megathread - Part VI

PSA: Please keep the discussion on topic. Meta discussion may be removed in order to allow others to debate.

If you would like a sub with a more singular focus on immigration in Europe, then /r/euromigration is recommendable.

Headline and link Date Comment
Data ~~~~ ~~~~
Spring 2015 Standard Eurobarometer : Citizens see immigration as top challenge for EU to tackle 14th August N/A
Opinion ~~~~ ~~~~
Are we making the migrant crisis worse by rescuing overcrowded boats? 14th August discuss here
Immigration World Poverty and Gumballs 2010 - Immigration Doesn't Work 14th August discuss here
News, Reportage, Photos/Videos ~~~~ ~~~~
150 Syrian Christian refugees arrive in Poland 14th August discuss here
Greek authorities’ inaction turns into abuse of refugees in Kos 14th August discuss here
Migrants "fight with knives" to get on train to Serbia 14th August discuss here
Calais migrant crisis: 'English mafia' trafficking people to UK 14th August discuss here
Migrants surge across Balkans to beat Hungary's razor fence 14th August discuss here
Hungary To Extend Anti-Immigration Poster Campaign To Syria And Afghanistan 14th August discuss here
Amnesty International: Austrian treatment of refugees 'scandalous': 14th August discuss here
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[–]JayOC -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Malawi family in Ireland fights deportation - A Malawi family in Dublin are running rings around the Irish authorities as they fight deportation from the country | Malawi Nyasa Times

[–]AureliusM 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Syrians begin boarding refugee ship on Greek island

Photo caption:

Syrian refugees line up before boarding the passenger ship 'Eleftherios Venizelos' at the port on the Greek island of Kos, August 15, 2015. Reuters/Alkis Konstantinidis

...

they queued up on the quayside and boarded in groups of 20.

[–]Enzo-Unversed 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

So the immigration crisis is in Eastern Europe too?

[–]throw3t2 16ポイント17ポイント  (6子コメント)

Being allowed to stay in Europe is undeniable an improvement for the people trying to come here. But what about the people left behind?

The traffickers demand exorbitant sums, so the refugees we are dealing with are probably already the ones better off than most. And the people who have nothing have no choice but to stay. If they try to immigrate legally they need at least a decent education. A doctor from Syria will most likely never be allowed to practice in Europe and even if it makes no difference for us but in Syria his/her work could save countless lives.

Is it wise to create a dynamic where people only work towards leaving their home instead of improving it? If every shop-owner closes up the moment he has made the necessary cash to travel to Europe the situation in these countries will never get better.

I believe we have to consider not only the people at our doorstep but especially the people we do not see on the news every day. And while being send back is bad for the people affected it may be better for their country and all the people left there as whole.

[–]Italy (Sicily)sEdivad 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Is it wise to create a dynamic where people only work towards leaving their home instead of improving it?

I think we need to distinguish at least two "classes" of migrants: those who could (maybe) actually try to make things better in their own country and those (like the syrian doctor in your example) who are fleeing from a war that started mostly for geopolitical reasons and that for sure won't end only because of the civilians' effort.

[–]WalesRhy_T 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

If that Syrian doctor faces death or torture at home, flees and claims asylum in the first safe country he enters. He's welcome to stay there as a refugee.

If he travels through several safe countries without claiming asylum he is not a refugee but an illegal immigrant. Illegal immigrants should be deported.

Just because your country is at war, suffering drought, famine or anything else does not give you a right to pay human traffickers thousands of pounds and travel across several countries to have a better life in Europe.

By your "logic" half of Africa should be allowed to move to the EU just because there's conflict in their countries.

[–]Italy (Sicily)sEdivad -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

If that Syrian doctor faces death or torture at home, flees and claims asylum in the first safe country he enters. He's welcome to stay there as a refugee.

Based on what I'm reading in this thread, it seems most people here don't accept this.

Anyways, I don't think that "half of Africa" would be entitled to receive refugee status, for the simple fact that only a little part of the applicants actually get it. This is why so many people attempt to escape from identification centers here in Italy and this is the people we want police to look after.

[–]Swabiagenitaliban 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Based on what I'm reading in this thread, it seems most people here don't accept this.

I don't get why some aren't in favor of granting genuine asylum. It's in the best of Christian-European tradition and thus something that shouldn't be challenged by anyone between center-left and staunchly nationalist-conservative. (The far left probably won't either.) Illegal immigrants and "fake" asylum seekers, those are the ones we can disagree on.

[–]WalesRhy_T 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Based on what I'm reading in this thread, it seems most people here don't accept this.

Ive not seen anyone claim that genuine refugees should be refused the right to stay in a country.

I don't think that "half of Africa" would be entitled to receive refugee status, for the simple fact that only a little part of the applicants actually get it

I don't think the vast, overwhelming majority, of those coming into Europe will be entitled to refugee status for the simple fact they aren't refugees. As I mentioned someone "fleeing from a war that started mostly for geopolitical reasons" is not a refugee. If we start taking in everyone fleeing from War or Famine we'd end up with half of Africa having a valid refugee claim.

Imo genuine refugees, who abide by the refugee system, should be allowed to live in the EU. "Displaced persons" merely fleeing war should be given safe accommodation, but not freedom to travel around Europe and illegal/economic immigrants should be deported.

[–]Italy (Sicily)sEdivad -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I do realize that having a war in your country does not imply you are a refugee, that was a different matter I was talking about (in particular, what a migrant, of any kind, could do for his country).

I'v seen someone here and there not wanting to grant refugees basic human rights, but I guess it's mostly confusion between economical migrants, "legit" refugees and every other shade you can get between the two.

If we start taking in everyone fleeing from War or Famine we'd end up with half of Africa having a valid refugee claim.

I agree with you, with this criteria even Ukrainians could be granted refugee status, but that's not necessarily the case.

EDIT wow, that's a nice downvote brigading we've got here. I even get downvoted for agreeing on what seems to be the most popular view.

[–]Switzerlandt0t0zenerd 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

New migrant tragedy: 40 suffocate in hold of boat

[–]Republic of MacedoniaXY100 22ポイント23ポイント  (15子コメント)

Do migrants think that they are entitled or in some way guaranteed european life?

https://youtu.be/OG8xmBR3nwg?t=66

[–]Portugalandy18cruz 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

"I don't want to stay in Greece, I wanna go to Europe". That sums it up perfectly.

[–]Macedonia, Greeceuserdx2a 29ポイント30ポイント  (8子コメント)

Picture of immigrants praying in a main street in Greece

I think this illustrates the situation somewhat.

[–]PM_ME_FIREARMS 18ポイント19ポイント  (2子コメント)

Are they seriously in the street? For fucks sake, keep it to the damn sidewalk at least.

[–]Benthetraveler 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

You know you are in deep shit when you pray towards a Greek flag.

[–]Macedonia, Greeceuserdx2a 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Towards?

[–]Benthetraveler 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I wasn't being serious.

[–]Macedonia, Greeceuserdx2a -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know :P.It doesn't make make sense otherwise.

[–]BulgariaScabSmoothie 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

250,000 migrants have crossed the Mediterranean Sea into Europe so far this year

[–]Your_Dumb_ 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

On hosting refugees, Germans say everything but 'cheese'. If you ask Germans whether they would host refugees for 20 euros a day, you will likely get a very clear answer - either negative or positive. But if you ask to take their picture, you may get the finger.

[–]Your_Dumb_ 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Opinion: Stick to the book on asylum applications. Asylum law has ironically come under threat from those who are demanding the right of all to stay in the country. DW's Christoph Hasselbach advocates sticking to strict asylum rules.

[–]come_visit_detroit 39ポイント40ポイント  (5子コメント)

I saw this somewhere earlier and I figured it would be of interest. Why a richer Africa means more migrants

Essentially, as the economy improves, Africans get more access to information (they see how much better off Europe is) and more people get the resources to leave. The truly destitute people can't afford to leave, so we're getting their 'middle class'.

This is a bit of a quandary for people who suggested helping Africans in Africa rather than letting them in and helping them in Europe.

Some want to cut foreign aid because we should take care of 'our own' first, but I've seen some argue that aid hurts the African agriculture industry, and that aid often ends up in the hands of warlords and such who distribute aid to their followers to increase the peoples' dependence on them. I'm sure this happens in some instances, but I'm not sure to what extent to happens.

In relation to the above, China is increasing its influence in Africa which still has significant economic potential (lots of people, lots of resources), so decreasing foreign aid may put Europe at a disadvantage long term compared to China, assuming Africa does grow. This whole thing is fairly complicated.

Finally, there's the brain drain aspect. The West takes in a lot of Africa's educated, and as the first link showed, we're taking their young men who can afford a relatively decent living too. This could hurt their long-term economic growth.

This article is one of the first that I found on the topic, which essentially suggests that we should educated them so that they have skills and a network, then encourage them to go back to Africa. The African Union has been trying to do this too, European countries could give them a big help here.

[–]United States of AmericaHRAustinTexx 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

What we should do is increase foreign aid and help develop Africa, and also have decently strict immigration quotas. At some point Africa will get to the point where people don't need to immigrate, and where people won't need to risk their lives to get to Europe. Also, we can more than afford to provide aid to Africa.

[–]Amber Waves of GrainCornFedMidwesternBoy 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

A quarter of American children are living in poverty and living in a food-insecure environment.

Why should we spend billions on other countries, to be rewarded with accusations of imperialism, when so many millions of our own children live in filth and go to bed hungry every night?

[–]United States of AmericaMeatsim1 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

How do you define "need to immigrate?" A lot of these people don't strictly "need" to immigrate as in they aren't fleeing for their lives. And as long as economic differences remain, even if the degree of that difference is drastically reduced, there will be people who will feel the "need" to immigrate to make a better life for themselves economically.

[–]popadom4u 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

And as long as economic differences remain, even if the degree of that difference is drastically reduced, there will be people who will feel the "need" to immigrate to make a better life for themselves economically.

If romanians who are 20x as rich as nigerians are immigrating to the UK then it wll be in excess of 120 years until they stop.

By which point white people will be a tiny minority and there will be no political will to stop the colonisation

[–]The NetherlandsXeran_ 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with pretty much everything but the foreign aid. We could decrease the aid and still getting all the pros from it without losing out to China while helping Africa in a better way. It's quite simple, just do what China does and invest in Africa. It would also gives us more influence and we can more closely look at the results.

At the same time as should stop with taking in any migrants. That would be better for both Europe and Africa in the longer. At only the cost of a select few who can pay the journey and are in search of a better(economical) life.

[–]The NetherlandsXeran_ 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Frans Timmermans totally useless post about needing more coordination, EU and more refugees

~95% of the comments, including his own ' fan group' is totally calling him out for it. He spreads a lot of lies, useless promises, no actual policies nor actions and no solutions for the root problem.

[–]JayOC 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Brandishing knives, stones and clubs, migrants clash in violent brawl as they clamber aboard packed train out of Macedonia.

[–]Hungarydrakhaien 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hungary requests EUR 8 m emergency aid from EU to tackle surge in migration

http://www.portfolio.hu/en/economy/hungary_requests_eur_8_m_emergency_aid_from_eu_to_tackle_surge_in_migration.30087.html

[–]JayOC -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Giant passenger ferry sent to Kos – but migrants won’t be allowed live on it

[–]JayOC 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Man survives flight to Sweden from Ethiopia in plane hold

[–]RudeBritannia 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

Calais mayor threats to open France's borders and allow thousands of migrants into Britain.

Great to see two EU member states working together so well on this issue.

[–]mao11 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Britain First activists confront and question Calais migrants. Must watch!

[–]United States of AmericaTMWNN 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The New York Times: Violent Backlash Against Migrants in Germany as Asylum-Seekers Pour In

[–]Switzerlandt0t0zenerd 2ポイント3ポイント  (12子コメント)

Austrian treatment of refugees "scandalous" according to Amnesty International

  • 2'000 refugees left outside, with nothing to protect them from either storms our 40 degrees heat

  • No psychological care

  • No single-sex showers

  • Baby with a concussion left alone and untreated.

[–]chill1995 20ポイント21ポイント  (11子コメント)

We don't owe refugees anything.

[–]European UnionIDownvotePunsAndMeme -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

See this is why no one takes you clowns seriously.

[–]Cuen -1ポイント0ポイント  (8子コメント)

You do. http://www.geneva-academy.ch/RULAC/international_refugee_law.php

EDIT; I get that everyone is all hot and bothered about the immigration situation, but don't have to downvote me for pointing out that there are international laws on refugees. That being said there is a difference between immigrants and refugees, but noone on this sub cares to make a distinction of that. Refugees are defined very specifically, but they are protected.

[–]chill1995 11ポイント12ポイント  (7子コメント)

Cute. Here's a map showing you where Austria is geographically relative to the countries these people are fleeing. http://imgur.com/D7IuOcf Are you going to tell me there Austria was the first asylum these people could've reached?

If you're a genuine refugee, you don't get to shop around for the best country to go to. These people aren't Austria's responsibility.

I implore Amnesty International executives to house these people in their own homes.

[–]European UnionTheBeerCannon -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Can you please explain to me how looking at a map changes or nullifies international law?

[–]chill1995 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Can you please explain to me why these people bypassed plenty of safe countries that they could've claimed asylum?

[–]European UnionTheBeerCannon -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

No I can't, and that's not the matter in question. Now answer mine.

(I'm not actually expecting an actual answer by the way, you know that you're spewing strawman bullshit.)

[–]Cuen -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you for the map, but I'm quite aware of Austria's geographical position. Are you implying that refugees stop being refugees the moment they enter the first semi-stable nation bordering their own conflict ridden countries? Turkey has 2 million refugees, most of these people still live in camps or have spread to cities and struggle to survive, you're saying those two million people are exclusively Turkey's problem now solely through geographical location. It's not that simple, buddy.

[–]United States of AmericaHRAustinTexx -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, but there's no reason to be retarded assholes either.

[–]Czechiaferoslav 31ポイント32ポイント  (3子コメント)

Anti-imigration groups in the Czech Republic "We Do Not Want Islam in the Czech Republic" and the "Bloc Against Islam" installed statues of stoned women in Prague to defend womens rights and warn against barbarism of Islam.

[–]United States of AmericaKestyr 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Go Czechs

[–]/r/finnougricMizeak 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is...is that from Birdemic? o_o

[–]RiseUpEuropa 36ポイント37ポイント  (3子コメント)

Immigration World Poverty and Gumballs 2010 - Immigration Doesn't Work.

Well worth a watch.

[–]DenmarkChinggisKhagan -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

this is still the dumbest thing Ive ever seen in my life. Are we all just ignoring the fact that there are fewer and fewer really poor people in the world?

[–]European Union (HU)poteott 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thank you very much for showing us this clip.

[–]andersonisgod 22ポイント23ポイント  (11子コメント)

Are there any interviews with immigrants where they are specifically asked: "why are you emmigrating when there is no war in your town? why are you coming to Europe when there are nearer destination where your life would be safe? why are you country shopping? why are there so much more working age men with you? do you understand that you might not be welcomed here?"

I only seem to find cliche reports about this topic but would like to hear what immigrants would have to say confronted with those questions.

[–]The NetherlandsXeran_ 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Their definitely are, but not really by normal journalists (don't ask the taboo questions...)

But this was a nice video with many of these things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa80bT4LbxI

[–]CroatiaLangley_Bot 17ポイント18ポイント  (19子コメント)

Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq. Those are all american battlefields, therefore I propose to put all migrants on the orange juice tanker and send them to 'good 'ol' uncle Sam.

[–]Australiakeyboards_mash 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just as long as you don't try to send them to the second choice convict colony...

[–]United States of AmericaMeatsim1 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Goodness knows nobody had a reason to leave those places before American troops arrived there

[–]Italycodexxxxxxxxxx 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

1) There are thousands of reasons for immigrants and for problems in those countries, and some of these are barely connected with each other;

2) "US battlefields", so basically you're saying that US came there and made all the shit up. Interesting. Because it's not true.

[–]Greecelordemort13 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You sure?

[–]CroatiaLangley_Bot 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

US geopolitical battlefields

[–]Italycodexxxxxxxxxx 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

They may be geopolitical battlefields, but they're surely not the cause of immigrants.

[–]Fuck the EU.Arathian 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

What would be a more plausible cause?

Who gave weapons to ISIS and iraqi forces that were so poorly trained that they retreated instantly?

Who gave weapons to terrorists opposing Assad? Who caused that stable middle eastern nation to collapse into a 5 years war?

Who invaded Iraq? Who invaded Afghanistan?

I am not in the anti-American train, I quite like Americans, but their foreign policy is shit and HAS caused most of the problems.

[–]Switzerlandchauceer 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

The US did not at all cause the Syrian Civil War. That is patent bullshit. Barack Obama and the US have been very reluctant do much at all towards supporting the rebels, it has been France that has been much more hawkish. It has been Turkey, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia that have funded the rebels and ensured the continuation of the rebellion, but the very beginning was due to conservative Sunni Islamist resentment against the Assad regime. The only thing the US has done is facilitate transfer of Saudi TOWs to certain rebels and fund some FSA groups, but this was well after the rebellion began and has had a fairly trivial effect.

If America was serious about fucking up shit in Syria they would have done so in 2013 when they were given justification on a golden platter with the East Ghouta chemical attacks.

If you'd like to learn more in lieu of 'muh american imperialism' visit /r/syriancivilwar

[–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

FYI the U.S. already resettles more refugees than any other country.

http://www.unhcr.org/524c31a09.html

Plus European countries (and NATO in some) were involved in Libya, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Finally, the UK was also involved in Syria.

Don't act like Europe wasn't a part of these conflicts as well.

[–]JayOC 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Sweden took in more refugees than the US.

For Fiscal Year (FY) 2015, the ceiling is 70,000. Refugee Ceilings and Admitted Refugees to the U.S., FY 2009-2014.

http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/refugees-fact-sheet

[–][deleted] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

This link says nothing about Sweden.

Instead it says, "The United States resettles more refugees than any other country, and these refugees go on to contribute to our communities and our economy" in the first paragraph.

Resettling is not necessarily where a refugee first ends up - many of these folks will end up in the U.S.

[–]popadom4u -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is it per capita or another one of those stupid charts that fat americans jerk themselves over getting bigger numbers than iceland?

[–]European UnionIKraftI 11ポイント12ポイント  (5子コメント)

lol, I'm sure Bashar al-Assads regime wasn't torturing people before the demonstrations got shot up (seems to be in the family huh?) and a third of the military deserted to the opposition which gets a few TOWs from time to time from the US. How the fuck is that an American "battlefield".

[–]FranceAntigoneInTheWall -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

Because america fund the syrian rebels

[–]Switzerlandchauceer 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

It does not fund any major rebels in Syria. The American funded rebels have been eliminated by Jabhat Al Nusra. All the powerful rebel groups in Syria are funded by Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar.

if you'd like to learn more (in lieu of 'MUH AMERICAN IMPERIALISM') visit /r/syriancivilwar.

[–]European UnionIKraftI 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

You seem to miss the entire point of my comment

[–]Baguettegabechko 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

And we don't?

[–]Switzerlandchauceer 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Odd that this is getting downvoted. If anything France has been more hawkish towards Syria than the US.

[–]BelgiumTrickleDownHax 80ポイント81ポイント  (102子コメント)

The silence of the mods is starting to bother me.

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