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Men's RightsPrenups can be overturned. Don't get married. (self.TheRedPill)

mucle6 が 投稿

Summary: It's in the title

Body: This sub has destroyed all but one of the barriers I put up in an attempt to prevent fully swallowing the pill. I always told myself "Just get a prenup and you'll live happily ever after. If she tries to divorce me she'll get nothing." This quite simply explains why my happily ever after will never happen...

Many people consider prenuptial agreements to be the be all, end all of contracts. As It turns out, an airtight prenup is exceedingly rare.

Honestly that's all you should need to see to be convinced, and if that's you, feel free to check out now. But for those of you who think you can get the best lawyer, here we go.

every lawyer will be looking for one aspect of the contract that makes the agreement outrageously unfair

Whops, your lawyer was too good, got you too good of a deal, and now it's null and void. This means if you want to play it safe, you can't have a harsh adultery clause. IE you can't say if she cheats she gets nothing.

duress implies that a spouse was under some sort of pressure to sign the contract. Rather than signing it willingly, the spouse was forced into the agreement either due to time constraints or stress.

"Well your honor I was in the middle of getting my degree and I knew I couldn't graduate without his emotional support. I was so stressed out and it felt like my only option was to sign the prenup"

if an agreement contains terms so unfair that one party would be left with absolutely nothing following a divorce, that contract probably wouldn’t hold up in court.

"But your honor I still have debt from school, so everything we own he bought. Even thought I signed a contract saying If I cheated I wouldn't get any of his stuff, I can't be held responsible for my actions"

It’s also possible to overturn a prenuptial agreement if one or both parties signed the contract without legal representation. In cases like this, judges will look to see what sort of circumstances surrounded the signing. Was it drawn up by the wealthier spouse and forced upon the other?

"See the prenup was forced on me. He was the wealthier spouse and he paid his lawyer twice as much as he paid my lawyer.

I want you to honestly ask yourself what you get out of a marriage. All I can think of is a tax break. Although, if you think of something I cant, ask yourself is it worth half of your stuff, plus alimony, plus knowing she's out there sucking on chad's dick. This might not happen to you if you get married, but half of marriages end in divorce. If you're not willing to take the risks then don't play the game.

Lesson Learned: Don't get married. No ifs ands or buts

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[–]MattyAnon 103ポイント104ポイント  (45子コメント)

every lawyer will be looking for one aspect of the contract that makes the agreement outrageously unfair

And yet ironically, marriage without a prenup is considered to be totally fair and reasonable on men.

[–]SleepNowMyThrowaway 57ポイント58ポイント  (38子コメント)

The most solid prenup: Be Chad Thundercock, and never have two cents to rub together.

You know who gets sued? People with assets. Dividing zero two ways leaves you just as wealthy as you were.

PS Trailer courts are not that bad.

[–]AmlanceJockey 67ポイント68ポイント  (34子コメント)

I think people would be surprised how far 50k a year will go when you dont have a wife and kids to support.

I love watching the hamsters at personalfinance try to shame a guy for not wanting to marry a chick with 100k of political science debt.

[–]balancespec2 30ポイント31ポイント  (13子コメント)

Can confirm, my base salary is 50k and I have roommates in a house I own. I drive a $66,000 car with almost $2000 a month left over after bills.

[–]pilledwillingly 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

On the pf sub? I've never seen dating advice there.

[–]1London-Bananas 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

50k a year let's you retire at 35 or something. But society wants you to take on a wife and kids, a mortgage and three cars so your productivity can be maximized until the day you die.

[–]Futuretrophyhusband 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can you add to this? Or provide a link?

[–]night-addict 2ポイント3ポイント  (15子コメント)

19 year old student here. Can you elaborate?

[–]AmlanceJockey 18ポイント19ポイント  (3子コメント)

As a family man 90% of your income goes to financing the lives of other people. If you have a big house in a good school district, wife, kids, credit cards, kitchen renovation, car/health/life insurance for everyone, etc, you can find yourself making six figures and having only a few dollars to spend on yourself.

As a single man every red cent you earn goes to you. No wife cracking a whip and holding divorce over your head to keep you writing checks so she can keep up with Jones.

To be honest my basic living expenses are 25k a year. Everything thats left over is used for investing or playing around.

[–]genericusername348 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, i've never really found it that expensive to live by myself. The one time i was in a relationship i was being strung along to just pay for meals and gifts and all that. That on the other hand was expensive and i was being shamed and guilted or insulted and disrespected when i wasn't spending every dollar i had and more on her. Honestly, i'm extremely glad i found TRP, and i'm glad i had that experience because i know i'm living for myself now and not for anyone else.

[–]LetsGoAllTheWhey 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

What about medical insurance? Does your company cover it?

[–]AmlanceJockey 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

At the 50k pay grade Ive found that many companies will subsidize it but not pay for all of it. Whether you use company insurance or get your own, you have a huge advantage over the family man. It costs less for a single person, and you can get a plan that fits you, not you and 3 non payers. You can get your health insurance down pretty low if you set the deductible to be 3k. Its only workable if you only use insurance for catastrophic events. The good husband knows his wife is gonna have yeast infections and need therapy and his kids are gonna be sick and hurt from being kids so he doesnt have that option. if i get sick or have a minor injury I pay cash to an urgent care facility or treat it myself.

[–]usul1628 15ポイント16ポイント  (5子コメント)

So, let's say you make 50k/year and live in a two bedroom apartment with another guy. You're going to have 30k/year left over after rent, utilities and taxes. That's a ton of money for one person.

[–]i_forget_my_userids 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

You'll be lucky to have 37k after taxes. How are you only spending 7k on bills? I live in a low cost of living area, and that 7k/yr on bills is absurdly low even here.

[–]suuupreddit 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

PlHe was probably thinking 50k take home.

[–]i_forget_my_userids 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Except he explicitly mentioned taxes.

[–]suuupreddit 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Missed that, good point. Definitely doesn't check out, then.

[–]usul1628 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can room with another person and get 6k/year in rent. Internet and a dumb phone cost less than a grand per year. Internet may even be optional, depending on your job. But using your 37k figure, that leaves you with over 30k and covers rent, taxes and utilities like I said.

[–]frenchtoastmilkshake 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

Also, if you haven't figured it out yet from this sub... get a STEM degree if you're not already working on one.

It's important to find jobs/careers that align with TRP. Working for the government or a (shitty) nonprofit may cause you to grimmace at the 'gimmie' or 'take, take, take' mentality. Being in an organization that produces a product or service that people will pay for in the marketplace is probably a better fit.

I started my career with the Feds, switched to nonprofits then economic development and am hoping to finish the transition into the private sector. Congruence in life is important, and I've found it is difficult to work 9-5 in an organization that consumes more than it produces.

[–]killabri 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

For the love of God follow this advice. As someone with a liberal arts degree, it took me about a year out of school to get a job that lead to a career. I networked hard, did everything I was supposed to do, but the bottom line is STEM degrees are just more valuable and desirable right now, and I'm sure they will continue to be.

Of course hard work pays off and to be honest it's more who you know than what you know, but particularly in today's world you need to make yourself as marketable as possible and a STEM degree is the way to go.

[–]night-addict 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Unfortunately, I have a passion for graphic design and art that's been there for a long time. So STEM really isn't my cup of tea.

I know there isn't a good buck in it and I know the entire place is terminally ridden with the social justice marine corps (read: feminist landwhales), but I seriously cannot imagine myself anywhere else.

[–]frenchtoastmilkshake 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Oh, you're fine. Graphics work is always in high demand, and you'll always be able to work on the side as well if you have hustle.

Might want to look at applying your design skills to 3D CAD software if you haven't already. Designing posters, websites and logos is hit or miss, but prototyping components or parts and landscape design/architecture might be more lucrative. At least a little course work in each field will set you up for success and greater options if you decide to pursue either later on.

[–]night-addict 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Cool, I'll keep it in mind :) Thanks for the advice!!

[–]mygodimpathetic 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Be Chad Thundercock, and never have two cents to rub together.

I get your idea. But if you don't have two cents to rub together, it kinda goes against the TRP ideal of always improving yourself and your situation IMO. Even a gym subscription costs money. Not to mention feeding yourself well. Or having a roof over your head and clothes on your back. A homeless Chad T. digging thru the dumpsters for food is no longer alpha Chad T. -- he's just a random hobo now. No one looks at him twice now.

[–]AmlanceJockey 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Look up what hyperbole is. Thats what OC was using. Now look up deep pocket doctrine.

[–]seducer4real 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

So instead of marriage you just keep spinning plates?

[–]MattyAnon 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

So instead of marriage you just keep spinning plates?

For now yes. Long term I don't know. Marriage is certainly a dumb fucking plan for a guy. I might do a LTR with a super special girl, but it's hard to see how one could be trustworthy enough. Hypergamy is real and getting worse as options expand and consequences diminish.

[–]seducer4real 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So, Dan Bilzerian lifestyle basically.

[–]interestedplayer -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

With a super special girl, ergo a unicorn? Watch this fella get sucked into an oneitis... That's just really a bad NAWALT mindset. I advice dropping it and accepting the whole truth of TRP.

[–]MattyAnon 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

AWALT, but some are better than others.

[–]through_a_ways 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

And yet ironically, marriage without a prenup is considered to be totally fair and reasonable on men.

Marriage used to be a prenup for sex. Now it's more of an offensive move, and the actual prenup is the only defense there is, other than not marrying.

[–]grewapair 30ポイント31ポイント  (0子コメント)

Live in a small apartment in a big city and you never need a woman in your life.

I spend about 5-10 minutes a day cleaning. It's small so it's all I need. I'd spend way more than 10 minutes fighting/listening to the girl yapping/going to events I don't want if I had a wife.

Cooking is easy and if you aren't into it, 100 places will deliver.

It might be nice to be married, but it isn't worth the cost and risks.

[–]skoobled 31ポイント32ポイント  (3子コメント)

Marriage already had a prenuptial agreement - it's called the vows. But nowadays that shit is just part of the expensive party pagent, huh

[–]wanderer779 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

you could argue it's a useless invention. The girl just stood up in front of god and everyone she knows and said she wasn't ever leaving. This was supposed to be the major commitment of her lifetime. If she breaks that what makes you think she's going to honor anything else? And if the courts don't have any respect for marriage vows, why would they have an respect for anything else?

The funniest part of it all is that you are constantly seeing these "why men can't commit" articles. Women are initiating most of the divorces so apparently they can't commit either.

A guy I used to work with argued that marriage should be a contract that you renew, like in pro sports. After the first 5 years you both decide whether to continue on or become a free agent. Of course I'd never sign one because I know it would just be used to fuck me over, but I thought it was interesting.

[–]vicious_armbar 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If the society really wanted to save marriage they'd privatize it by allowing individuals to write up and agree to their own contracts, then they'd strictly enforce those contracts. That way people could include whatever is important to them. As well as agreeing upon their own rights and responsibilities.

Of course we all know that will never happen. Just look at the way judges refuse to enforce pre-nups. So sorry ladies. No marriage for you! At least from me.

[–]ramot1 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sometime we should tell them to try not to suck any dicks while walking up the aisle.

[–]leodoestheopposite 39ポイント40ポイント  (15子コメント)

I got divorced twice, both times I had a pre-nup. The first time over 2 decades ago there were no issues. The second time there were veiled treats from her lawyer to have the pre-nup declared null and void, or at least some of the clauses.

It was blackmail pure and simple, I talked this over with my lawyer and I gave in on a few items that I didn't have to in order to save time and reduce risk. One of the items in the divorce settlement that my lawyer insisted was that the divorce settlement was final and without recourse, meaning that she could not come back and modify any of the terms, and my very smart lawyer had the judge sign off on the clause too. I am not a lawyer so I might not have all the terminology correct, so take my post in principle.

For the curious in you, we had:

  • no kids, so no child support
  • no debt,
  • some assets that were hers from inheritance, protected by the prenup
  • some assets that were mine from prior to the marriage, protected by the prenup
  • some assets acquired during the marriage, regulated by the prenup
  • no alimony

So practically we both walked away with our personal assets, and we split the common assets in half. There was a sizable down payment on a property that came from my own personal assets that was supposed to be included in my personal assets but I had to give in and count the entire property as common property to be divided 50/50.

But I do read this trend that prenups are overtuned more and more and I can't help think WTF? That is the reason why more and more guys, even if they don't know about TRP refuse to get married. There have been articles referencing statistics posted in this sub before.

And while I follow rule #1: You don't talk about TRP; when at times with family and friends the discussion is about single life and how it's hard to find someone I always say that it's easy, very easy to find someone, the hard part is to find someone of quality. Moreover there are more women looking for guys, than there are guys looking for women, because most women out there of a certain age are looking to get married, while the age appropriate guys do not want to get married. When confronted with disbelief I ask them to think about their single friends who complain, and to think about how many of those are women and how many of those are men, and after a few seconds of going through their own thoughts, most people agree with me, that they know a lot of (post wall) women looking for a guy (BP/BB to marry them) then guys who are looking for a wife.

The present state of thing sucks for everyone, but it is driven by feminism gone wrong. TRP is nothing more than a reactive defense counterstrategy.

[–]DrasticDragon 20ポイント21ポイント  (12子コメント)

I agree with your post, except for the last paragraph. Feminism has made it GREAT for men looking to get sex. Back in the day, virginity was sacred and one had to get married first in order for sex to be to socially accepted. While feminism has made the judicial system crazy, if you are part of the top 20% of men, you are almost guaranteed to be able to have more sex than if you lived 100 years ago.

[–]widec 16ポイント17ポイント  (4子コメント)

That's if you're in the top 20%. It pretty much ruined assortive mating and leaves the other 80% fighting for scraps. Individuals can definitely improve, but I'd argue if self improvement keeps trending it will just set that 20% bar much higher.

[–]VinylGuy420 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

True and the 80% of men fighting for scraps will be fighting for fatties and uggos (1-5s). The quality women (6-9s) will be pinning for the top 20%. Women won't have to try as hard to be quality when 80% of men are fighting over them so they remain fat, uninteresting, and less loyal.

Thanks feminism.

[–]VirgoRooster 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Assortive mating never existed in humans. You're kidding yourself if you believe it did. There is no idyllic past where all men lived with a single wife.

High quality men have always had their choice of women at the others expense. It is estimated that 16 million men in the world today bear Ghenghis Khan's Y chromosome. This is 10% of the contemporary male population of the region under the Mongol Empire's extent. I saw somewhere that 1 man has reproduced throughout humanity's existence for every 19 women that have done so.

[–]NoFap_Newb 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I saw somewhere that 1 man has reproduced throughout humanity's existence for every 19 women that have done so.
Lots of cultures would go somewhere, fuck all the women and kill all the men. It's not just Chad banging 95% of married women.

[–]perplexasaurus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Christian, western societies have been pretty successful at achieving assortive mating.

In the 19th century marriage rates were over 90% and divorce rates were below 5%.

[–]leodoestheopposite 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

You know what? That is something that I have been thinking for a while in the back of my mind. People like me were raised Blue Pill, with hopes and dreams... then we find ourselves into a nightmare and not a dream. If we can release ourselves from the brainwashing and use TRP for what it is, a countermeasure to the clusterfuck that it's out there . . . the present situation is pretty sweet: a former average guy can get a lot of pussy if he wants; and personally I have had my fair share of pussy and still do; and yet I find it a little sad; ideally I would still be married to my first wife, who was the love of my life, and we'd be happy ever after, having fun and a lot of sex, unfortunately TRP knows better that... it's not possible.

[–]Oprahforpresident 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

You had to insert the no child support provision into your decree even when there was no child to speak of?

[–]leodoestheopposite 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I didn't intend to have kids, so that was not an issue for me.

[–]Boise13 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

I just found out a coworker is being cheated on by his wife with his best friend. Two years ago, in a dead serious manner, I told him not to get married. NEVER GET MARRIED.

[–]cheesecarrot 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

Does anyone here have any experience with having kids without getting married on purpose (I.e. not because the condom broke etc)

[–]wanderer779 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

seconded. I am already in this boat but would like to hear more stories.

[–]1London-Bananas 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's like having kids, but without a financial agreement between the parents.

Although I don't have kids, I see many people on this sub hamstering "yeah but if you want kids you need a stable family and marriage". Lol wat. A marriage contract means as much for stability as a few words in front of a man with a funny hat and an imaginary cloud bearded man. Stability is derived from the healthy relationship between the parents, not from made-up contracts. Kids learn through seeing how their parents behave. If you have a healthy relationship with your partner your kids will grow up to be healthy adults.

I do know one couple who have two kids and aren't married, but have been together for 15 years or something. It works out fine. Marriage has nothing to do with healthy relationships. If anything it's a good sign that a woman wants to be with you for you, not for the attention party and social status.

[–]vicious_armbar 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Having a kid with someone is more dangerous then just getting married to them. Child support is generally 22% of your income in my state. If you are unable to pay because of illness, injury, or unemployment they don't care. Their motto is: "Fuck you pay me!". How many times have you heard of someone having their drivers license suspended, or being imprisoned because of a divorce? How many times have you heard of that happening because of child support?

If your really want to have a kid so badly, donate sperm though a spermbank to a lesbo couple. You won't be liable for child support, and many of these couple want a sperm donor who will play a father like role to their child.

[–]fewforwarding 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't forget this post from a week ago.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/04/n-y-prenup-battle-winner-destroyed-family-with-affair-cousin-says/

She originally refused to sign it, but a few days before her wedding, she agreed to sign after her husband promised her he would do away with the prenup once the two began to have children. He did not destroy the prenup, even after they had children, according to his estranged wife.

Women can say they were "pressured" into signing the agreement and the judge will just throw the prenup out anyway. She was given the agreement 6 weeks before the marriage.

Maybe if you do everything perfectly a prenup will work, but why put yourself at risk for no gain in the first place?

[–]PlusGoody 49ポイント50ポイント  (36子コメント)

This is simply wrong.

A pre-nup which fits the prescribed models, and is done in the prescribed manner, by the court precedents in your state is just as solid as any other contract, and is HIGHLY likely to be enforced under its terms.

Now, if you pull a pre-nup form from the Internet and ask your fiance to sign it a few days before your wedding, it's worthless. But anything done shitty is worthless.

For the benefit of the young guys on here, here's what you have to do with a pre-nup.

(1) A year or so before you get married, hire a lawyer who has been drafting, and defending, pre-nups in your state and county for many years.

(2) A month or so later, tell your fiancee you want a prenup. If she agrees, write her a check to hire a lawyer at least as experienced and expensive as yours, and the CPA that this lawyer requests. No wedding invitations are sent or to be sent until the pre-nup is signed and sealed. You agree to reimburse her or her family IN FULL for any non-refundable wedding expenses they incur if the pre-nup cannot be agreed to.

(3) For the next couple of months, that CPA will fully investigate your finances and that of your family (relevant to your inheritance prospects). Give him everything he asks for, without exception or limitation.

(4) At least 9 months before the wedding, your lawyer sends the first draft of the pre-nup. It will not mention or limit child custody or child support. It will not penalize at all, or only slightly penalize, "fault" -- i.e., it works whether she cheats on you, or vice versa. It will give your fiancee a small portion (how small dictated by local precedent) of the wedding-day value of your assets, the appreciation on that value, and the value of your career on the wedding day. It will give her a much larger share of the growth in the value of career and of assets you acquire from ongoing work income.

(5) For the next couple of months, you negotiate. At least six months before the wedding, you finalize the terms and sign. Then and only then can invitations go out.

[–]razorwan 52ポイント53ポイント  (10子コメント)

Christ, making a solid prenup sounds just as tedious and draining as an actual divorce rape.

[–]RedPillAlternator 16ポイント17ポイント  (8子コメント)

It is supposed to be, you are basically doing all your divorce paperwork ahead of time. If you aren't spending $5-6k (and at least 1/3 of that on her lawyer) then it probably isn't being done right.

[–]Meglomaniac 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

People dont realize this is a game changer for the rest of your life. You're hiring an expert to make sure you aint gunna get fucked.

[–]Adolf_ghandi 24ポイント25ポイント  (2子コメント)

You are still fucked. You pay her an expensive guy to craft a contract you should not need to begin with and that works AGAINST you. Then you pay for the ridiculous thing called wedding. Next your expectations are not met and before you know it you have to fear your expert made a mistake somewhere and you still get fucked. And even if you only divide assets then how are you stopping that bitch from simply piling up debt by buying useless trash?

Kk thx nope

[–]trpftw 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're right but you have to admit there will still be people, even people who know RP, will still get married because they want a family/kids or companion-they-love, etc.

I mean, none of this should be like this. We in RP should be working towards informing guys about what they should do to protect themselves, and how they can influence politics and elections so that these prenups won't even be necessary in the future and men are treated equally to women in Family Courts.

For now we can say unequivocally: if you're getting married, you're creating a financial risk that must be expected or defended against in court and with lawyers (which costs money too).

Inform, eliminate risk, influence these laws/courts about institutional unfairness, and advise against taking the risk (although again some people will still take the risks).

[–]John_MayerMaynot 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Traditionally, the bride's father pays for the wedding.

[–]NAmember81 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

No matter how much time or money you dedicate to doing a "perfect" prenup I guarantee you a lawyer with skill and revenue to gain can and will find holes in your defense.

[–]trpftw 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

No matter how perfect your date is, there's always the chance you die in a collision, taxi ride, or metro ride.

No matter how perfect your business contract, there's always a smarter lawyer who can argue against it, and some judge might declare it null and void.

I mean, there's risk in everything. I don't think that cherry picking the situations where some crazy lawyer outsmarts the prenup and finds a biased judge who is willing to throw out a prenup, is a realistic look at risk.

But yes, if you don't wanna take the risk, don't take the risk.

Like I'm not disagreeing with you (just to be clear). I'm just saying there is definitely a risk in everything. But plenty of politicians, businessmen, good men, alpha men, will get married too and take that risk.

[–]sir_wankalot_here 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Any contract can be broken if it is not written properly. So watch what you sign with any contract

[–]RPMahoutsukai 16ポイント17ポイント  (9子コメント)

It will not penalize at all, or only slightly penalize, "fault" -- i.e., it works whether she cheats on you, or vice versa.

It will give your fiancee a small portion (how small dictated by local precedent) of the wedding-day value of your assets, the appreciation on that value, and the value of your career on the wedding day.

Well fuck marriage under such rules then! I could understand this:

It will give her a much larger share of the growth in the value of career and of assets you acquire from ongoing work income.

...but what the fuck, she can cheat, leave me and still claim my stuff, that I owned BEFORE her?

I'm still not sure if I'm going to be marrying or not, since I'm very tradtional and my potential SO is too. But in Russia, no party EVER gets any claim on anything that was present there before marriage (like, a penthouse I owned before I got married), or was gifted at any point (like, my mother gifts me a countryhouse during our marriage - it remains mine and she has no claim on it). Only what was earned by the spouses during the marriage is split between the separating spouses. And if she cheats (and you got a proof) - she gets no chance at alimony or child support of any kind.

[–]RobertCarraway 15ポイント16ポイント  (6子コメント)

This is what the world has come to. RUSSIA now represents one of the last sane societies within the Western world. We should all let that sink in for a moment.

[–]redzorp 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

Indeed. Been telling my friends that for years now and they are only just beginning to understand.

  • No stupid sexual harassment laws
  • No gay propaganda churning 24/7 through the media
  • No transgender propaganda
  • No "cisgender" anything, whatever the hell that is
  • SJWs like Pussy Riot (western financed) are whipped in public and jailed
  • Strong belief and support of family life
  • Strong support for Orthodox Christianity
  • Strong sexual dimorphism identity (male, female and nothing else)
  • Women are mostly slim, feminine and take care of their appearance
  • They have told the IMF, World Bank, World Court, foreign NGOs, foreign media and NATO to simply fuck off
  • Strong support for a multi-polar world based on international law vs the unipolar world based on hegemonic US warfare

What's not to like?

Ok, it's cold and there is a lot of corruption at ground level. The latter is slowly improving. The former is there to stay.

[–]wanderer779 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

is it really improving? I bought some russian stocks because I thought they were cheap. Then there was that incident where the owner of that company was forced to sell to one of Putin's buddies and I lost faith in them.

[–]1Dis_mah_mobile_one 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not. I've said it before but just because a lot of aspects of life in the West are broken does not mean that Russia by default is the answer.

Russia is broken too in different ways. There are plenty of aspects of Russian society and culture that the West would do very well to examine, think over and perhaps adopt. But, porting the whole of the Russian experience over to the West would cause as many problems as it solved.

[–]RPMahoutsukai 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Russia is broken in it's own way. Business here is hard. Corruption is abound. That's fact.

It may be slowly improving but that's just because the corrupt people have had enough money and don't really have use for more money, plus they're getting older and start getting affraid of being burnt on the pans in the afterlife for their sins, so they start to do at least some good.

[–]Easih -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

cold? I was molded by cold being a east Canadian so I think I will do fine:).

[–]RPMahoutsukai 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Want more fucked up info? Here: http://www.rg.ru/2015/04/29/brak.html

This is an article on common law marriage in Russia. They want to add it to our laws, that if you live together for X months and then break up you have to 50/50 split the property earned together. If the article can be trusted, then the total majority of men questioned are actually SUPPORTIVE of common law marriage proposal, but some women are AGAINST it, reason being, if they snatch a wealthy man from another woman, they don't want him to be forced to financially support the previous woman. Mind blown.

[–]cariboo_j 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

It will give her a much larger share of the growth in the value of career and of assets you acquire from ongoing work income.

Yeah wtf. That's a weak ass prenup.

[–]RPMahoutsukai 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Point is, if I get the author's idea correctly, that is all you can hope for nowadays, either this weak ass prenup or it will get torn down in court and you lose even more. Fucking bullshit.

[–]redzorp 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

If she agrees, write her a check to hire a lawyer at least as experienced and expensive as yours,

Uh. No! I am not a lawyer but I have a good lawyer. Last time I talked to him about prenups, he told me NEVER to do this!

I forget the actual case (do some googling) but there was a famous sports star who gave his fiancee a check to hire her own lawyer to review the prenup. Because of that, the judge threw out the prenup when they divorced. The convoluted reasoning is that because the sports star paid to have the prenup written AND paid for BOTH lawyers, his spouse did not have objective legal representation on her end. Stupid reasoning. But there you go...

[–]trpftw 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

EXCELLENT point. I too thought that was weird that you would pay or help your wife get a lawyer. She should get her own lawyer.

It is also NOT unfair for you to have a great lawyer, and her to have a shitty lawyer. This might only matter if you're a billionaire, and she's unemployed ("your honor, my husband has a team of lawyers, and I only have this one shitty guy.")

[–]RedPillAlternator 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is a state by state thing, 90% of states say that lawyers represent their clients, no matter who is paying... because the whole difference between a professional and non-professional. (Code of ethics, that is what separates a lawyer from a line cook, one is a professional not because his job is harder, but because he has taken an oath to put someone else's needs above his own). This is why all the legal advice online is bullshit, one judge, one case, can change the precedent and tie your lowly circuit judges hands. If you are thinking about letting a woman move in with you, have kids with you, be supported by you, you need to first get a competent lawyer who has reviewed ALL the appelate law in your jurisdiction. And if you move, make sure you have another lawyer in the new jurisdiction advise you on the consequences. The whole thing is bullshit. Never get married unless you are in a jurisdiction that you lose rights as a father if your not (again, this is 90% of the US). As soon as she quits her job, file for divorce. This is what feminism has done to the next generation, assure them that whatever advantage or ability they have by luck of who they were born to, will be taken away to appease those who are less fortunate and don't have any interest in improving anything for anybody.

Fuck the system, all of you have paid your dues and don't owe the 'common' people anything. They owe you, and don't forget it when they come asking for your labor, time, or money.

(not knocking on anything trpftw said, just thought it was an appropriate place for my diatribe)

[–]balancespec2 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

(relevant to your inheritance prospects)

The fuck? Are you telling me that after I am divorced, if I inherit money, some can go to my wife?

Or is that only if you inherit while you are still married?

[–]ramot1 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

In my jurisdiction, inheritance is considered sole and separate property. But what a divorce court will do is anybodies guess.

[–]trpthrowcatch 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

This just goes to show how bad of an idea legal marriage is. You have to put in all this time and effort to make sure you just lose a small amount of money in a divorce. Why not just not get married and save yourself the trouble?

[–]JackGoldsteinWrites 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

great reply. as usual it comes down to doing it well and thoroughly.

[–]sir_wankalot_here 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good advice a pre nup is a contract, any contract can be broken.

(1) A year or so before you get married, hire a lawyer who has been drafting, and defending, pre-nups in your state and county for many years.

A lawyer which might be good at criminal law might be poor pre nups. A judge I knew got screwed over by a construction contractor ☺ The judge happened to be an expert in criminal law.

To paraphrase the judge's own words he looked over the contract given to him. The contractor appeared to be a simple guy, not too bright. The contract seemed fine.

6 months later the work was not done, so the judge attempted to sue. The case was thrown out because the contractor had stuck into the contract a couple of clauses on why the job might not be done.

The judge himself admitted that the contractor outsmarted him, and told the story to show anyone can get screwed. He was like "fancy that, a stupid contractor outsmarted a judge who is an expert on criminal law". I think the judge actually thought it was kind of funny. The amount of money involved was under $10,000 so he could afford it easy.

The judge also admitted it was his own fault for being cocky, and told the story as a lesson to others. He was a cool guy actually.

[–]Newdist2 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

All that sounds great.

Now suppose you make $150k/year working fulltime, and the wife makes 45k/year working fulltime. You save $80k/year out of your money, and your wife saves nothing out of hers.

After seven years she gets bored and wants out. Does any prenup protect the half a million dollars you've saved since getting married?

[–]Captain_Unremarkable 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Does any prenup protect the half a million dollars you've saved since getting married?

Yes, that's what prenups do. If your salary is that much more than her, your prenup can easily reflect a division of assets proportional to income earned. Stop being paranoid.

[–]RPMahoutsukai 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's not paranoid when you can't trust your stuff not being taken from you in a society where private property is considered a key right.

コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

    [–]Oprahforpresident 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I understand splitting assets in a marriage where a husband and wife worked together for many years to accumulate their wealth, but in situations where one spouse has accumulated all the wealth before meeting the other spouse it's an absolute dumb business decision to get married by the wealthier spouse. When Courts void part or the whole prenup they work under the presumption the non challenging spouse has been unjustly enriched. Ironically enough the challenging spouse ends up arguably unjustly enriched. After a certain point it just doesn't make sense to get married, share your life with someone sure, but to enter a legally binding contract is for the birds.

    [–]Endorsed Contributormonsieurhire2 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I NEVER advise getting a prenup. I'm in the don't get married camp.

    Remember, the system WANTS fresh meat to feed itself, and it will look for any excuse. It's not about justice or fairness, it's about where the most money is to be had.

    Want a small example?

    Think about if you're accused of a minor traffic offense. Most of us have been. Sometimes we were guilty, and we paid our debts to society, but other times it was trumped up bullshit.

    Now, the system could let you off for being innocent . . . but it gets to collect $100 to $1000 + for finding you guilty! It's practically a no-brainer for a venal judge, although apparently juries are fed up with rigged traffic related bullshit to bring in revenue for the state. Still though, some taxpayer is footing the bill every time you enter the meat grinder, even if you come out with only your time and energy drained instead of your pocketbook.

    Pretty much everything to do with the legal system is to be avoided if you can help it. The only good you can say about it is that it's a better alternative to warfare as a means of solving disputes. And that's why we have it.

    [–]ProductivityMonster 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Case in point: they recently installed red light cameras in my neighborhood. They will ticket you if you do not follow the letter of the law: didn't stop on the line fully before make a right on red - ticket; couldn't complete a left turn at this 4-way intersection before the light turned red because of high traffic (there's no left turn arrow) - ticket. It is actually impossible to make a left turn during rush hour without getting a $50 ticket. I need to use this major road to get to work.

    [–]vicious_armbar 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The only good you can say about it is that it's a better alternative to warfare as a means of solving disputes. And that's why we have it.

    Sometimes I question even this.

    [–]championchilli 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Happily unmarried at nearly 40 in my own place and banging chicks ten years my junior. Glad I got out of a long termer five or so years ago, haven't looked back.

    [–]f3yleaf 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Almost 40 here, mid 20s girlfriend for a year, planning children. If I die my bro and parents will take care of shit, marriage is useless bullshit, my kid will be fine and so will my gf because she is awesome(And is getting a good education) and my bro/parents love her.

    [–]Easih 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

    cohabitation count as marriage in some place. Also she doesnt need divorce to financially rape you, with kids alone she will be able to financially rape you once it ends; even more so if she's not earning $$$.

    [–]f3yleaf 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

    ...... Im not American/Canadian..... And we dont cohabitate full time atm, tho we will when she gets pregnant and finish her education, she is studying 200 miles away and paying for herself, if she gets pregnant I will probably rent/buy an appartment where she is studying tho.

    We dont have the "common law marriage" bullshit that America/Canada does, and child support is a fixed sum not dependant on wealth, which in my case would make it a relatively minor expense.

    [–]Easih 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    fixed sum child support; must be from a nordic country ; indeed in that case you have it pretty good.Not all of Canada has common law marriage; I live in Quebec province and we went up to the supreme court to reject this not that long ago.

    [–]Limekill 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Cohabitation rules does not apply only to the US/Canada - this also applies to Aust, NZ, UK and some European countries. Also if you do have children and in a relationship the courts may see you as married/defacto anyway.

    [–]f3yleaf 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Does not apply where I live.

    "All countries in Europe have now abolished "marriage by habit and repute", with Scotland being the last to do so in 2006."

    It does not exist it Europe.

    [–]amberlamb 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    “When was it signed? Where was it signed? And under what conditions was it signed?”

    My lawyer videotaped everything.

    [–]f3yleaf 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

    ....... dont get married..... the end.

    Seriously, have ltr's, fall in love, have children, DONT GET MARRIED.

    [–]Limekill 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

    This advice will not help you in many common law countries - check your local laws!

    [–]f3yleaf 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Dont have that bullshit here, you are either married or not.

    [–]vicious_armbar 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Having children is way more dangerous then getting married. Getting divorced is usually a one time hit [alimony is much rarer now] then you're done. Child support is 18 years of slavery complete with unreasonably large payments, and the threat of jail looming over your head if you're ever unable to pay.

    [–]f3yleaf 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Paying for a child is kinda different tho, you will be doing that anyway if you choose to have one, again I realize America is really fucked up but child support here is a capped amount and you cant go to jail for not paying, in my case they will just take ot out of my tax deduction or similar if I refused to pay, so I would not have a choice. Its a big decision for sure and not one to be taken lightly, unwanted children is a nightmare, but im pretty sure I want atleast 2 kids, and im actively planning too, so thats a different scenario from someone getting trapped against their will.

    [–]CptFizz 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Can you sue your lawyer for a shitty prenup?

    [–]grewapair 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Yes. And because of the rate of their getting overturned, few lawyers will draft them, and those that do charge a lot.

    [–]Hatemebrooo 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Yawn, just because you're not a lawyer and don't understand it doesn't mean they won't be upheld, absent malpractice on the attorney's part or joe blow filling it out by himself, prenupts are practically always upheld if done correctly

    [–]Limekill 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    You can probably sue the solicitor if he is negligent. This has occured in a number of Will cases, so the precedent is there.

    [–]OrpheusV 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Well, what of those of us who done goofed on this and got married before finding this place? A little late to the party. And I didn't do a prenup either. Oops.

    Granted, I've started applying some TRP concepts to the relationship, but I can't help but think I've made a mistake in light of what I've read and seen.

    [–]Tarnsman4Life 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    DO NOT GET MARRIED IN THE USA. PERIOD. Don't do it. Prenumps where the woman has her own lawyer review them beforehand are getting overturned. The family court system is filled with angry feminist judges who do not give a flying fuck about you, your contract or what your STBX did. She just wants to fuck over the man.

    If you really want to LTR then LTR but do it smart, don't let the move in. Maintain separate residences, finances, etc.

    We all hear about the stories where yes 40 years later you have an Alpha happily married but they are rare. My grandmother lived until she was 99 and was a chain smoker until the day she died. She was also one of the healthiest people I knew until the last 3 years of her life.

    That doesn't mean we should all go out and chain smoke.

    [–]GuitarHero07 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Guide to pre-nups:

    1. If you get married make sure you find a woman who is fit for marriage. This excludes the vast major of Western women. She should have fewer than 5 sex partners (ideally 0), 27 at the oldest, from an intact family, be feminine, be serious about motherhood and know how to cook and clean. Remember, you can't turn a ho into a housewife.

    2. Sign the pre-nup long before plans for the wedding are made. Ideally it should be signed before the engagement is announced. That way there is no arguing that she was "coerced" or "pressured." You should leave a minimum of 6 months before the wedding.

    3. She should have her own lawyer (paid by her) advising her. That way, there's no claiming that she was duped. She knew full well what she was getting into.

    4. She has to get something. Unfortunately, you can't leave her destitute. She must get a "reasonable" (as determined by a judge) amount of assets. The key is to make it so that she gets something but you are not destroyed financially. While we hear many divorce horror stories, many wealthy men do walk away relatively unscathed.

    [–]Limekill 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The 6 months thing is important - if its too close to the big day she can argue 'pressure'.

    relatively unscathed

    Thats the main focus, walk away with 80-90% of income producing / business assets in tack - who gives a fuck about a car or jewelry.

    [–]PremiumGoose 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

    I wonder what the rate of prenup overturns are compared to not. Seems like we only hear about the times they are overturned but not from when they withstood.

    [–]RobertCarraway 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Agreed. I see a lot of talk about this type of thing, but very few statistics. It is statistics that we should be acting on, not hearsay.

    [–]redzorp 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Supposedly it's rare that prenups are overturned. But at the rate things are going, that will probably change in the coming 10 years, as we have been seeing.

    But for the record:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/05/us-money-divorce-prenup-idUSBRE8940Y920121005

    [–]RobertCarraway 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    But at the rate things are going, that will probably change in the coming 10 years, as we have been seeing.

    I completely understand this sentiment, and generally speaking I'd agree. There is a major factor that I don't think you are considering though: Prenups are mostly used by the upper and upper-middle classes. The middle class rarely uses them, and the lower class practically never does.

    When understanding social trends considerations of class are always paramount, and since the upper class makes all the rules, and the rest of us play by them, it's less likely that factors will change which benefit the upper class.

    In other words: incentives exist for establishment figures (read: old money) to protect the validity of prenups, just as incentives exist for the establishment to discourage marriage among the general public.

    [–]wanderer779 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    why do you need stats when the risk is so high? If you don't get married then you can't get divorced, and if you can't get divorced you can't get divorce raped.

    [–]RobertCarraway 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    why do you need stats when the risk is so high?

    How high is it? are 90% of prenups completely invalidated? 50%? 10%? We need stats because neither you nor I have any idea that the risk is "so high". Don't act like any of this is simple.

    A good poker player knows his opponent, he knows the game, and he knows the odds. I don't know anything about prenups, and I'm sure most of the men here don't either. If you want to make major life decisions based on complete ignorance, be my guest.

    On Breaking a Prenup through Coercion: "Literally, you'd have to have a gun next to your head," says Steerman, who finds coercion difficult to prove. "I've never had a case in over 23 years of practicing family law where a client claimed coercion or duress."

    [–]mdadm 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I don't understand why this surprises people so much. For as long as contracts have existed, one party has been getting screwed, and it isn't necessarily the party that the contract is designed. The more powerful party always wins, regardless of what's in the contract.

    Take for example that you run a software development business. You don't have any E&O insurance because you make all your clients sign a hold harmless contract.

    Then you write a bug into your software (accidentally of course) that destroys two hundred thousand dollars worth of client's raw material. You better bet your ass that your client is coming after you, regardless of your contract status because you were negligent.

    You cite your contract but the judge rules in your customer's favour; The client has an in-house legal team - you can't hope to match their spend on the defense. You're fucked.

    Wake up people, danger is everywhere. Sometimes even with an "informed decision", all you're doing is rolling the god damn dice.

    [–]Limekill 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    A contract is better than no contract.

    Think of it like a medieval siege - The more defenses you have, the better off you are. So having a 'Keep' is okay, then having walls around the keep is better, now having large stone walls encircling is even better (now its a castle), then having a moat provides further protection. Also having an escape tunnel is useful.

    [–]1CowardlyPetrov 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Is there a list of these overturned prenups anywhere? I'd really like to prove this to my friend who thinks prenups are unbeatable.

    [–]cptspiffy 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Most of the time you'll see the same two or three media-sensationalized cases mentioned; the hysteria here about this topic is surprising for a forum dedicated to cold logic and rational thinking. TRP is supposed to be about facts, not bullshit. Every time the topic comes up the same guys chorus "Look at these same two cases that come up every time! See, all prenups are garbage! Why would you even want to get married anyway? Plates for life!"

    Think about a topic that you know well. Has the media ever covered it? How good a job did they do? Was it an accurate portrayal of your profession/area, or were they utterly and completely wrong about pretty much everything related to your topic of expertise? They did a horrible job, right? So why would you trust those same idiots when they report on something that you don't know well, like marriage law (which varies enormously from state to state, much less country to country)?

    Look, some of us want kids. Reddit skews young, so it's not surprising that most guys in their 20s don't. Understand, though, that many of us do. So to answer the original question, that's why. If you have kids with someone, she's gonna have a financial/emotional hook in you. There is no way to avoid that. Marriage/prenup is generally going to be a better idea than commonlaw spouse/no agreement at all. The decision you have to make is whether or not having children is worth that risk to you.

    Now, if you don't have any interest in children, then I will agree with the chorus: don't get married.

    [–]1CowardlyPetrov 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Did you even read my comment or did you accidentally reply to the wrong comment?

    [–]Limekill 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    You have to follow the rules set down by statute and case law for prenups to be effective. Also if kids come then in many common law countries then a prenup can (and will) be ignored by the court. So the focus should be about following the rules - this will help you substantially. In some common law countries, if you are together for 2 years the court will decide you are in a relationship.

    There are too many jurisdictions to list cases - just do a search on google news 'prenups' or whatever.

    [–]Overkillengine 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    One of the funniest Demotivational poster memes I have ever seen was:

    "Before you try to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you."

    It was funny because it was true. The issue with modern marriage isn't what happens when everything works out; it is what happens to a man when everything does not.

    [–]TheJessee 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Half or marriages end in divorce and those still married a lot of them are miserable going without a real relationship, also the tax break is actually not nearly as good as people think

    [–]nantucketghost 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I'll speak for the other side. Getting married is fine. Fuck, I love it. Tons of great sex, great girl, no pressure.

    It's all about setting the rules at the beginning of the relationship. You need to train them from the start. If you try to redpill it half way in, you're going to have a tough time. Not saying you can't do it, but from the start is where it works.

    You have to be the alpha from the get go. Stay or leave, I don't care. You may deep down inside care, but you need frame and you need to know that if she does walk out it's for the best.

    We were engaged (long time ago now) and I even told her then: We're not having kids. I don't want to hear you when you turn 30 complaining about kids. This is your chance, you can stay with me or you can leave (again we were engaged and I was giving her a door to leave). She said she would stay and take me as her husband.

    A feminist would say I was a jack ass and cruel. Hell most people might say that.

    I, in actuality, made sure the rules were laid out. That happy times were ahead.

    Marriage is great, you just need to start on the right foot.

    [–]LionLegacy 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Do explain what exactly marriage offers that LTRs don't.
    If you and her need a piece of paper to convince eachother you love eachother and to stay with eachother then I'm not so sure about your relationship

    [–]1Dis_mah_mobile_one 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm glad you're happy. Two things: one, if you want kids it changes the entire dynamic. Two, it's not that most guys here don't understand that you can do it, it's that they understand that you can get almost all of the benefits without most of the risks by not getting married and holding frame in an LTR.

    [–]jkeegan123 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I would be fucking pissed beyond reason if I got married and my spouse took advantage of my financial status through divorce. If she did it while committing adultery and got to leave with my money, I don't know how I'd handle that....but I will say of marriage, it's great to know that someone else has your back legally, is LEGALLY BOUND to always have your back, and is a lifetime companion for the good and bad times. My wife and I get along very well, even after the fights, and we never go to bed mad.

    コメントをもっと表示する (4 返事)