89
90

Bot Improvements (self.DotA2)

Mojoedoto が 投稿

Bot A.I and functionality needs to be improved for players new and with experience

I would like to share a list of improvements to Bot matches:

Players should be able to select their role and bots should pick and act accordingly:

  • An example maybe I want to be a solo offlane (I can't because I get a solo Jugg with me)
  • Or duo lane mid
  • Or solo carry vs a tri lane of bots
  • Solo carry and support trying to steal cs (Get that MMR realism)

Bot difficulty should be improved and learn as you play against them with learning algorithms (Bots should have their own A.I. MMR / Level system)

  • Creates more intense learning
  • Forces player to leave comfort zone
  • Makes games more challenging and "realistic"

Bots should have the ability to imitate professional players by collating data from tournaments and replays

  • Challenge the whole EG team in bot format with your team, see if you can win
  • Think you beat Sumail mid in a 1 vs 1 match up, well go do it
  • It won't be perfection obviously

Bots should encourage new players what to do in some situations

  • Take tower together
  • Detect that all cores are down for 50+ seconds lets take rosh
  • Defend towers and where might be helpful to place wards or safe to farm currently

Discuss below

全 28 件のコメント
並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]Hao better not have prevented us a buffad3z10 15ポイント16ポイント  (6子コメント)

Whilst I would love bot improvements the current ones are by far the best of any moba that I've tried. Someone who understands the base concepts or comes from another moba will struggle to beat unfair bots whereas in my first few smite bot games I played recently I went 20-1 or so without much of a struggle.

I do like the idea of a bot writing tournament/contest that came up recently where coders would submit ai and the strongest would be looked at / used by Valve.

[–]Twodeegee 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

Hell I sometimes struggle against unfair bots since they always group up and naturally you can't coordinate with your bot team.

Also viper bot.

[–]Fuck EGGamerhcp 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Dear Gus Bot.

Words cannot explain how much I hate you Gus Bot.

I hate you because you always pick viper and always take mid from me, and always get EVERY. SINGLE. LAST HIT. AND DENY!

[–]orthocresol [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

You just need to walk halfway past your mid t2 tower, viper will leave mid and go to another lane. I always walk there then shift-queue top rune because bots don't contest 0 min runes either.

[–]Support_AuiPG_Wednesday [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I think he meant when he is against viper?

[–]orthocresol [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

always pick viper and take mid from me

I think viper is on his team here.

always get EVERY. SINGLE. LAST. HIT. AND DENY!

he is against viper here. For this I can't say much except practice. If you force the viper to choose between a last hit and a deny, he will always get one but you can get the other. Especially important as sf with lv1 passive. On other heroes you can actually just spam nukes to harass him out of lane, granted that's stupid because it doesn't work in real life but whatever. Of course if you are playing antimage or some shit like that then it gets a bit difficult.

[–]Ellefied [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The moment you can outlasthit Unfair Viper without resorting to cheese tactics is the moment you gain atleast 500 MMR

[–]orthocresol [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I am all for improving the bots and don't get me wrong, I think the middle two suggestions are really cool, but in my opinion you are being too ambitious. Only the first and last suggestions seem feasible to me. Bots right now are decent (the pudge actually lands some nice hooks) but they have some real obvious flaws, which include but are not limited to:

  • bad item and skill builds (cm aghs rush without skilling ult, jugg bfury rush which doesn't seem to do shit considering their deathball playstyle)
  • wards not working properly in inventory
  • zoning epicentre / eclipse
  • tide getting ganked alone and blowing ravage when he's at 40 hp
  • lina/sf using their nukes questionably (perhaps it's coded just for lina to gain fiery soul stacks, but she likes to spam Q in a direction entirely opposite the creep wave when farming/pushing)
  • running away from a manfight that they will clearly win (countless times i've had a viper running away from me when i was <100 hp)
  • tendency to leave the lane early to farm jungle even on heroes that can't do it efficiently (most notably tide without anchor smash)
  • chilling out doing literally nothing in the jungle without a tp when enemies are pushing base (is this their way of saying "gg i no def base" or what? cause it sure feels like it)
  • not contesting 0 min bounty runes (they do go there but only like 10 seconds after the rune spawns)

I think the focus should be on finding out why these are happening, and fixing them. This is probably also much easier to code than a full learning algorithm for gauging player skill, etc., or parsing replays to learn exactly what a professional player is doing (pro players do things for reasons which even top casters miss, e.g. envy's mana void on a creep to prevent rubick from stealing blink, so I don't think a computer can learn much from pro players).

Once the bots stop making obvious mistakes, then you can go about making small improvements. For example lina can learn how to use euls LSA combo, and a bot can definitely time this PERFECTLY. Then after that we can talk about playstyle changes, get them to learn how to splitpush or something else.

[–]zodiaclawl 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

As people have mentioned so many times, they should create some kind of bot API and let tech savvy Dota players improve on bots.

[–]Fen_ [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Not much about the bots is exposed currently, but I think that'd be pretty cool. There's a bunch of numbers you can tweak that are essentially how much the hero cares about farm and stuff, but not a whole lot beyond that.

[–]EE-sama's secret stratSenatorBanana [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Valve could make a Bot "Tournament" where coders would create a set of AI and duke it out with other coders and take the most realistic AI out there and put it in the game.

maybe make the price limited edition hats

[–]Fen_ [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

AI vs AI kind of misses the point. The way to win such a contest would not be to make the best bots for humans to play against.

[–]maxalphaxray [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That would be awesome, I'd love to be able to actually do that.

[–]Mushi is love, Mushi is lifebc524 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

All I want for bots is that they stop buying wards. I'm tired of seeing the Axe on my team walk around with 3 slots (not stacks) of observers and not place any down.

[–]Backstab drama too muchSweggycabbages 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I just wish you could command bots like in wc3 using space+enter.

[–]Mahasoggi [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I'd wish that Valve check the bots on their item builds and some of their actions. It's quite funny when you see a Wraith King with an active armlet at fountain, waiting to get 100% healed. Or a CM with aghs but no ult at all. And some debatable items like phase boots on WD. As far as actions - tell DK to stop stealing kills with his breath. I just hate DK now, whoever plays him now.

[–]FongoOngo [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Don't know what's wrong with Phase Boots on WD. There are better options, Arcanes or just Brown Boots, sure. But it's not really a flaw. The other two are though.

[–]Mahasoggi [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That's why I said it's debatable. It just so happens that I prefer arcanes on WD. This doesn't mean I'm saying phase are wrong.

[–]wahlp [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

As much as we all love the idea of better bots, we're almost definitely not going to see anything from Valve anytime soon :(

[–]katikacak [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

bot should occasionally throw the game to make the game harder

[–]Two sides of the same coinIntergalacticTortoiz [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

They are doing it on hard level everytime :)

[–]Support_AuiPG_Wednesday [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

They kind of do that on unfair mode (sometimes). Like they refuse to fight under tower and will even engage by themselves on <50% hp

[–]essentialblend 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for making this post, I hope Valve just gives an overhaul to the bots system.

(In a perfect world atleast) I should face an equal or tough challenge against bots IF i'm an average/above average player, so low skilled /new players can find that challenging and their improvements over bots translate to something in real games (except for hero mechanics which can be practiced in sandbox mode)

For people who are on this post and want a somewhat okay bots experience, just google 'Updated dota2 Bots' and you'll find a Reddit /Dota2Dev thread about it.

Also, we need all of the bot-modders from the dev forums to speak up here so we @ genpop can have more to go on, about how to (DIY) improve bots till Valve does something about it since the Dota2Dev Thread about the bots hasn't been updated by people since a couple of months.

[–]TasselhoffDazzlehoff 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

These are some good suggestions and i'd love to see them implemented.

[–]pukefist [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I just want them to place the wards they buy.

[–]demenator [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Has anyone ever tested what MMR a full bot (hard/unfair) team would have?

[–]DongerinoSyegfryed [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Interesting suggestions, I particularly liked the first one, would be very good for practice and for learning, training offlane soil, and trilane,

I just wish bots defend the ancient while I'm dead, and not farming jungle or "defending top" the current state of bots is depressing

[–]aTemeraz 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

IIRC, the Dota 2 Bots already won an award for "AI in a supporting role", I think Valve are pretty happy with where the bots are at right now, and wouldn't want to divert work from more important aspects of the game. http://aigamedev.com/open/editorial/2014-awards/#support