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Why BitcoinXT is considered off-topic (self.Bitcoin)

ThePiachu[M] が 投稿

Since there is a lot of controversy in the decision to treat BitcoinXT as off-topic on this subreddit, let me explain why this decision was made.

Note - this is my take on things and it doesn't necessarily reflect the official position of the /r/Bitcoin moderation team.

First let me give you a bit of background...

First of all, this subreddit has a group of active moderators. We are not always in agreement as to whether or not something should stay or be removed. Despite that, we do our best not to engage in mod wars - going back and forth between approving a submission and removing it is not helping anyone and just creates hostility. Usually if there is a disagreement we talk things out and figure out how to act in the future.

With BitcoinXT, we had some time to discuss the topic before today. The conclusion was - it should be treated as an altcoin, since it deviates from the Bitcoin protocol and creates a hard fork that not all core devs agree on. While BitcoinXT specifically might not be too "alt" since it is endorsed by a core developer and it doesn't change things too radically, it doesn't mean that in the future we won't have any other "fork-coins" that don't have the pedigree nor the mild changes. What if BitcoinXT was proposed by someone other than Gavin? What if it changed the distribution algorithm? What if it created new coins or erased old ones? Would this still be Bitcoin, or something else?

That being said, not all mods are proponents of this decision. Some took a hard stance on this subject, and in the end, the decision was made to treat it as any altcoin - same as Ethereum, same as Litecoin, same as everything else.

As it was explained earlier - our focus is not to have moderation wars, instead applying a uniformed moderation between the team. If instead we engaged in mod wars, on reddit there is always one deciding voice, that of the most senior moderator who can remove everyone else.

I hope that can serve as at least some explanation as to why things are the way they are. I understand it might not be good reasoning as to why this decision was made.

Some more reading:

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[–]PileMaster 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

What was the subreddit for bitcoin before it forked the first time?

[–]ThePiachu[S] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

/r/Bitcoin . However, if you believe multisig is wrong and decide to go back to before the fork, it's not the main Bitcoin chain any more.

[–]ichabodsc 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

it doesn't mean that in the future we won't have any other "fork-coins"

Does this mean that your current position is that all "hard forks" will be considered "altcoins"?

Irrespective of XT, I would argue that this position undermines a major feature of bitcoin: the capacity to incorporate any necessary technological / economic changes to remain the "longest chain." The "network effect" of cryptocurrencies suggests that there will be a single dominant coin, but a narrow view of "what Bitcoin is" by /r/bitcoin could make it more difficult for "Bitcoin" to compete for this position.

[This is unlikely to have an impact in the near-term, but policies that make Bitcoin less nimble and adaptable run the risk of inhibiting Bitcoin's future.]

[–]andyrowe 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

What happens if the fork becomes undeniably inevitable? At what point will the mods here concede it has usurped core? If XT is successful when exactly does it stop being an altcoin? If XT replaces core do mods still want users to come here for Bitcoin discussion?

[–]luke-jrLuke Dashjr - Bitcoin Expert -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

An altcoin becomes Bitcoin when the previous blockchain is abandoned IMO.

[–]ThePiachu[S] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (3子コメント)

If XT overtakes Core and becomes the undisputedly dominant Bitcoin network, it will become the focus of the subreddit. If both networks coexist for a long time, it might be a problematic decision.

[–]andyrowe 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Should users not judge moderators whom did everything in their power to censor and marginalize XT?

[–]RedNero 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's understandable, and now that you know the position of the majority of subscribers, that xt is not an alt nor is it off topic, you can adjust moderation to reflect this.

[–]ThePiachu[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I will talk with other mods about this.

[–]Tiraspol 13ポイント14ポイント  (21子コメント)

And what if 90% of /r/bitcoin oppose this/your decision? You are running this sub-reddit like a dictatorship, which it should NOT be. By doing what you are doing, and treating it as an "alt-coin" which it sure as hell is not, you are basically making everyone run for the hills from here, looking for uncensored alternatives, and making people turn to XT as a message of revolt. Good Job.

[–]whoistheenemy 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

Horseshit.

[–]samurai321 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Bitcoin Core is dead, the arguments should center about what it's the best way to increase the blocksize, a planned increase or a dynamic blocksize, like with the difficulty.

[–]KoKansei 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Banning all discussion of an alternative bitcoin client which is backwards compatible with the current bitcoin blockchain by claiming it is an "altcoin" is like banning all discussion of texture mods from /r/Skyrim and claiming that all such mods are a "different game."

How about instead of trying to impose your ill-formed opinion on the community here you let us decide what we want to talk about using our upvotes and downvotes? You guys are on the wrong side of bitcoin history here and if you continue down this path, /r/bitcoin is going to lose its status as a forum for credible bitcoin discussion. Until this censorship by the minority stops, I will be visiting and recommending /r/bitcoin_uncensored and www.voat.co/v/bitcoin. The current moderation policy is a disgrace.

[–]wawin 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Upvoting this thread for visibility. Regardless of agreeing or not with the reasoning of the deletions I think this should be discussed in the open and this thread serves this purpose.

[–]ThePiachu[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks, that's my reasoning as well.

[–]Nathan2055 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

creates a hard fork that not all core devs agree on

Stopped reading there. The core devs aren't the gods of Bitcoin and don't get to dictate how the protocol is used.

[–]packetinspector 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

The top mod is /u/theymos and as they are leading the censorship it is they who should have made some sort of explanatory post before they started the censorship. It was obviously going to be a contentious decision.

They didn't and now here you are, as number 2 mod, making some sort of weak explanatory post many days later after this whole censorship controversy erupted.

It's not good enough. This controversy has become an offensive joke and this is now what needs to happen:

  • /u/theymos needs to resign. He's eternally compromised as a mod now.

  • The censorship decision needs to be reversed. A very large majority of the community do not agree with the decision. A mod team cannot hold out against the majority of its community, as they still need to hold trust and good will within that community. That trust and good will is rapidly disappearing

  • After /u/theymos has resigned, the rest of the mods who have supported /u/theymos' censorship campaign need to recognise they were wrong and apologise for their actions. That might then help to rebuild trust and good will.

Hopefully we can then go back to being a sub that can discuss this fork, which is the major news in the bitcoin world right now, freely, and of course from either a for or an against position.

[–]pb1x 1ポイント2ポイント  (9子コメント)

The old slippery slope argument

If you're going to judge something, judge it on its face? Why are Altcoins banned? Because they are about something else and therefore off-topic, a fairly standard and understandable rule

You should either allow XT because it relates to Bitcoin or ban it because it is about something that is not very relevant to mainline Bitcoin, not ban it because it might set a precedent for future things that are not relevant

[–]Future_Prophecy -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

No, they are banned because most altcoins are scams. They are banned to protect users.

[–]pb1x 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Scams/advertising are also offtopic so the same logic would apply

[–]ThePiachu[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (6子コメント)

You can see it as slippery slope, but you can also see the opposite as special pleading - BitcoinXT should be treated differently because it is ran by Gavin, therefore it should be exempt from the rule.

[–]cryptonaut420 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

By that same logic Core should be treated differently because it is ran by Maxwell. I'm actually not even sure what you are trying to get at, but you have lost it man.

[–]ThePiachu[S] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (4子コメント)

If someone came in and proposed a 20MB hard fork of Bitcoin, would that still be Bitcoin? If we had 10 other people come in and each propose a different fork, would they all still be Bitcoin? What if someone changed the mining algorithm, the block speed, etc.? At which point do you draw the line?

We drew the line at any hard fork.

[–]phor2zero 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Whichever version has the longest chain back to Satoshi's genesis block is Bitcoin. If it doesn't even have a chain yet - if there are no nodes running the proposed code - then it's basically just a proposal. A proposal to improve Bitcoin. Are such topics off-topic in /r/Bitcoin?

[–]ThePiachu[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

If the code is already prepared and aiming to fork, it's basically a fork. If it's about discussing the blocksize, I think it should be on-topic.

[–]phor2zero 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Handling forks is what the network does. Right now we have 2 choices from 2 dev teams. In the future there may be many more dev teams with their own releases vying to attract the node operators.

If this sub was labeled /r/CoreTeam the policy would make more sense but being labeled as it is one would think it would be a place to discuss all the dev teams building code to operate this particular blockchain (The one started by Satoshi)

[–]cryptonaut420 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

We aren't talking about 20MB, or any of those other things you mentioned. And if everyone eventually agrees to any of them, yeah it is still bitcoin.

Hard forking is our ultimate check and balance. Saying otherwise is centralizing power in the current group of core devs.

Your lines suck.