全 179 件のコメント

[–]VaikEurope 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I love how people talk about mob mentality and how free speech was restricted. They didn't read the article. One guy recognized the Neo Nazi, said something to him and then went to the manager who did nothing. Some time later the Neo Nazi left. That is not a big headline. There was no mob. Nobody was restricted. One guy got told by another guy that he was a shit person and left without being forced. Don't make this into something that it's not. Read the damn article!

[–]new_DooM_Vet 21ポイント22ポイント  (16子コメント)

First: I have zero, zip, nada, no liking of Nazis what-so-fucking-ever.

But that customer was breaking no laws (at the present) or even wanting to be noticed. Some dude coming over and yelling at him to get out because [they don't like his beliefs] is wrong IMHO.

This wasn't a debate, the nazi scumbag wasn't trying to stir up trouble here. He was just hanging out at a beer garden.

What if this was someone from Pegida?.... AfD?..... Die Linke?.... when is it ok and when is it not?

What if this was a muslim and someone was telling him to leave as they didn't like what he stood for?

What if... what if... what if..... where to draw the line. Everyone should have same rights and take care of matters under the law.

EDIT:

Way off topic but... woo, I have had this fake account for a year today haha.

[–]elgubbo 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

What if this was someone from Pegida?.... AfD?..... Die Linke?.... when is it ok and when is it not?

its ALWAYS okay to state your opinion.

[–]ballsinyourm0uth 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

As long as it doesn't constitute an insult

[–]I-fuck-horses 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is counter to anything children are taught by reasonable parents and grandparents about acceptable behavior in public.

[–]new_DooM_Vet 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

its ALWAYS okay to state your opinion.

I am no disagreeing. I just want to know what you mean.

1) Should you be able to yell at someone you think is a nazi who is eating in a restaurant?

2) Should you be able to walk over to someones table and tell them to get the fuck out of a restaurant?

3) Should you be able to start an argument with a stranger in a public place? A private business?

4) How "rude" should you be allowed to state your opinion?

5) If someone does not want to have a discussion with you, can you ever overstep trying to get them to discuss something with you.

I also believe in free speech.

[–]elgubbo 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

None of the above are acceptable and yes you can overstep boundaries.

Judging by the video - the only evidence we have - the guy did nothing of the above. The nazis where standing - and he was talking to them with a loud voice. he didn't even insult them in the video.

[–]Bristlerider 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes you can state your opinion.

But you cant go around shout people down and harass them.

That can in fact get you picked up by the police, and rightfully so.

[–]coolsubmission -3ポイント-2ポイント  (6子コメント)

soo what you are saying is i'm not allowed to tell nazis my opinion of them? :thumbsup:

[–]new_DooM_Vet 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

i'm not allowed to tell nazis my opinion of them

I am not a lawyer. I think that would really depend on the circumstances.

If you walked over to a nazi standing on the street and said in a reasonable tone of voice that you thought what he was doing was wrong.... I think that would be ok.

If you walked over to nazi and said that he is a lowly piece of goat shit and you hoped he and all his friends and family were destroyed.... I think that would be crossing the line... at least in Germany where (I believe) there are laws about actions taken if you insult someone.

Is anywhere the right time and place for yelling at someone to leave/telling them you disagree with them or is there a time and place where it is unacceptable?

[–]jagermo 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1357/

[–]Sarkaraq 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Relevant for the USA. Munich is in Germany, though, which has a different approach to free speech.

[–]xkcd_transcriber 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Image

Title: Free Speech

Title-text: I can't remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express.

Comic Explanation

Stats: This comic has been referenced 2250 times, representing 2.9565% of referenced xkcds.


xkcd.com | xkcd sub | Problems/Bugs? | Statistics | Stop Replying | Delete

[–]scorcher24Bayern (Fürth, Mittelfranken) 25ポイント26ポイント  (116子コメント)

The problem with this mob mentality is, where does it stop? At Nazis? Or do we continue with people we are just not comfortable with too? Like Muslims or because someone looks like a Salafist?And is driving nazis out of society really what we need and want? As long as they just sit there and talk to each other I don't see much of a problem.

No matter how you look at it, it is discrimination of a political belief. That they are extreme right winged, does not matter. Every belief is equal and we should not start this. Because if we do, we are just like them. Freedom and free speech has it's price. To sit next to someone who has a political belief you don't like is one of them.

[–]cyberdork 22ポイント23ポイント  (26子コメント)

Did you even watch the video?
2-3 people simply started to argue with them, the vast majority of the guests didn't even react to the scene. There was no shoving or anything like that. The neo nazis then just left, because they were sick of arguing. How on earth can you call that 'mob mentality'? So a group of 2-3 people is a mob to you? Anyhow, the only reason this is news is because some guy filmed this rather harmless scene with his mobile.

And that neo nazi is not simply some dude with an opinion, he was multiple times convicted of criminal assault (gefährliche Körperverletzung).

[–]Paedda 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

The problem is the implication that the owner of the beergarden should have thrown him out. Why on earth? The Nazi was not demonstrating, not screaming propaganda or something, not even quietly displaying offending symbols. Just his person being there.

Even if he is a criminal, the justice system is (or should be) dealing with that. If he has paid his fines or done his time, I'm not to apply some additional persecution on my own.

That BILD twists this into "courageous citizen expels neonazi" is annoying. What's courageous about that?

[–]elgubbo 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

where exactly is the implication in his comment that the beergarden should have thrown him out?

[–]ballsinyourm0uth -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

The headline at Bild.de contains the implication that the owner of the beer garden should have thrown him out: "Wirte sollen entschlossen reagieren"
http://www.bild.de/regional/muenchen/nationalsozialismus/hasselbach-fliegt-aus-biergarten-hirschgarten-wirt-redet-42144576.bild.html

[–]Paedda -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not in his comment, but in the original BILD news alert:

In einem Münchner Biergarten sitzen bekannte Neonazis: Der Wirt reagiert nicht. Was nun?

Known Neonazis sit in a Munich beergarden, the host doesn't react. What to do?

And in the article:

"I hope that in the future, others will react and say they won’t accept neo-Nazis in their restaurants, beer gardens, and so on.

Starting a discussion is fine, albeit a bit impolite. But I grant you, you do not have to be polite to nazis. Especially if you were assaulted by their kind in the past. I think I would just have left myself, though.

[–]Sarkaraq 2ポイント3ポイント  (20子コメント)

And that neo nazi is not simply some dude with an opinion, he was multiple times convicted of criminal assault (gefährliche Körperverletzung).

And he received his sentence, didn't he? So, why would you feel superior to the German jurisdiction and apply your own punishment?

[–]elgubbo 8ポイント9ポイント  (19子コメント)

they are just talking to them - they do not punish him in any way. they use their right of free speech in telling him that they think he sucks

[–]Sarkaraq -5ポイント-4ポイント  (18子コメント)

they do not punish him in any way. they use their right of free speech in telling him that they think he sucks

That's not how free speech works in Germany. "You suck" is an insult, isn't it? That's not

just talking[...].

[–]elgubbo 6ポイント7ポイント  (17子コメント)

Okay let me reword that. Telling someone that you think bis political belief sucks is free speech. The guy talking to him does not insult him

[–]I-fuck-horses -4ポイント-3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Harassment is not free speech. It's harassment. I'm sure I would have participated, but at least I'm aware that's my lowest instincts ruling my behavior.

[–]alayne_ 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

They didn't fucking harass him.

[–]Sarkaraq -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd feel harassed if somebody shouts at me in rage.

[–]elgubbo 16ポイント17ポイント  (4子コメント)

No matter how you look at it, it is discrimination of a political belief. That they are extreme right winged, does not matter. Every belief is equal and we should not start this.

And i have every right to tell him that i think his political belief sucks. its not discrimination. he was not thrown out. he left on his own accord.

[–]Luett_un_Luett 15ポイント16ポイント  (2子コメント)

Every belief is equal and we should not start this.

No, every believe is not equal. The believe that human dignity shall be inviolable (as stated in our constitution) is clearly superior and not equal to the believe that there is a worldwide jewish conspiracy and that we should eliminate the jews (as believed by e.g. the Nazis).

[–]I-fuck-horses -5ポイント-4ポイント  (1子コメント)

So the Nazi tried to spread that world view in the Biergarten? This must be missing from the video.

[–]audaxxx 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are moments when they don't spread that bullshit, yeah. For example, when their mouth is full of Currywurst they have to stop talking until they swallowed.

[–]tmaster7331World 32ポイント33ポイント  (26子コメント)

It's really easy: no tolerance for intolerance. Nothing against free speech, but if there are people that actually argue AGAINST free speech, they deserve to be shut down.

[–]alper 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

Not at all, tolerance means also tolerating intolerance.

[–]tmaster7331World 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

It would, but that is no good tolerance. Tolerance isn't always the thing you aim for. Or would you tolerate your neighbour you know to be a murderer? (Extreme example)

[–]alper 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Tolerating intolerance, not tolerating crime.

The case is for lassitude with resolve. Quashing intolerance usually breeds more of it and usually it's not that harmful. Even if it is harmful it can be withstood without too many ill consequences. But if it becomes threatening it should be destroyed with all means.

[–]tmaster7331World 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, as hate speech is a crime and those neo-nazis are neo-nazis, because they actually do give hate speeches.. The line is really thin, and I'd rather get rid of that disgusting, intolerant and hateful people than preserving those extreme forms of "free speech". The concept is great, I just don't think it does always work.

[–]Arvendilin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are some things you just can't tolerate, I'm not saying get forcefull or anything but stuff like the guys did here, which is stating that they think his ideology is wrong and stupid is completely okay.

Nazis did thrive and still do thrive on people tolerating and not acting and not caring =P

[–]dexter_sinisterUSA 9ポイント10ポイント  (14子コメント)

Why should arguing against free speech be shut down? If you're harassing, intimidating, or assaulting people in addition to arguing against free speech, then there are plenty of laws against the former.

[–]Luett_un_Luett 15ポイント16ポイント  (11子コメント)

Because he isn't just some random guy with a disgusting opinion but one of the leading Nazis in southern Germany. He isn't just someone with a different opinion but he is someone who is actively fighting and leading the fight against the very basics of our society. He's fighting our constitution, our country. He is an inner enemy. That's why he should be treated as shown in this article.

[–]Mr_C_Baxter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You are wrong. Living in a Democraty implies that you have to deal with other opinions, whether you like them or not. He didnt do anything wrong in the beergarden so he has a right to stay there. And i am saying this while believing that nazis are wrong. But i also dislike your opinion, so should i be allowed to throw you out whereever i please?

[–]plspiritBayern 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

and who determines who is the enemy? in my world it's still the law not some random mob

[–]Luett_un_Luett 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

and who determines who is the enemy?

He himself

[–]I-fuck-horses -5ポイント-4ポイント  (6子コメント)

He is an inner enemy.

I wonder who the Nazi is here.

[–]Thaddelᕙ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ᕗ 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

The one that is actively working in the Neo-Nazi scene, probably.

[–]Mr_C_Baxter -5ポイント-4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Why not both?

[–]Thaddelᕙ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ᕗ 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

Are both active in the Neo-Nazi scene or desire a society based on National Socialism?

[–]Mr_C_Baxter 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well where i come from, beeing a nazi also means beeing intolerant, so at least where i come from it still applies to both.

Edit oh nice we downvote even questions now, gotta lova reddit

[–]Thaddelᕙ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ᕗ 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well National Socialism isn't known for its tolerance. :D

I admit though, i was mostly being a pedant, because I don't like how inflationary (?) terms like that are used. Also because I'm a pedantic asshole.

[–]alper -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Free speech exists less in Germany than it does in many other nations.

[–]LawL4EverGermany 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not sure I'd say "many other nations", but that's mostly because I don't really know much about free speech laws in countries other than the USA and Germany, but you're right that arguing against free speech is probably illegal in Germany (not an expert on this but afaik it is, at the very least it should be an edge case). I don't get why you're being downvoted tbh.

[–]plspiritBayern 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

how ironic, if you shut down people arguing against free speech, you yourself are arguing against free speech and according to you deserve to be shut down.

no, that's not how it works, free speech is for everybody.

[–]tmaster7331World 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's not ironic at all...

[–]plspiritBayern -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

i·ro·ny1 ˈīrənē/ noun noun: irony

the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.

so speaking out to get yourself shut up is not ironic?

that's like arguing for weapons to bring peace by shooting yourself.

[–]I-fuck-horses 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Was he being intolerant? Or was he "just there". You should punish actual behavior, not (someone's) existence. Can you tell me what you are trying to accomplish? Make him change his mind? Or just pure terror, to make him/them afraid? Which of course won't work because you are unable to do enough terror. So it's just mutual escalation.

I would not mind if you had a working thought-out strategy, but you don't. All you have is righteous anger and force without thought.

[–]tmaster7331World -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, I don't know. I personally would not have him kicked out. But I don't mind if others do.

[–]hondaaccords -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

... That is effectively banning free speech

[–]elgubbo 16ポイント17ポイント  (23子コメント)

this was not mob mentality.

https://www.wikiwand.com/de/Philipp_Hasselbach

this guy is not someone that "looks like" a nazi but is a nazi leader in southern germany. He is violent and promotes hatespeech.

He was confronted verbally.

This is not mob mentality but free speech in action.

[–]eean 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

The old "First they came for the Nazis and I did not speak out" argument, lol.

Freedom and free speech has it's price. To sit next to someone who has a political belief you don't like is one of them.

Sitting silently by someone who you disagree with politically is absolutely not one of the costs of freedom and free speech! Your argument is amazingly counterintuitive: "Freedom means being required to stay silent".

This reminds me of the right-wing folks who campaign against what they see as the tyranny of political correctness in the US. They make freedom of speech arguments as well, but really they are making freedom-to-not-be-criticized arguments.

[–]scorcher24Bayern (Fürth, Mittelfranken) -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Go ahead, push me into the right corner even though I don't belong there. It is so convenient isn't it? To label someone who you disagree with as a right winged Person. So easy to dismantle any argument with it, without actually listening to it first. Go ahead, have the easy way. Because that is not what I said and you are just interpreting what you want to read.

[–]eean 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That wasn't what I said either. I was making a comparison to where I've heard this anticriticism argument before. I'm sure you aren't the only person on the left (or where ever you are) that finds political speech distasteful.

[–]labbeduddelFrankfurter Bub 17ポイント18ポイント  (13子コメント)

you realize that his political affiliation is 1 hair away of being a crime. This guy has had issues with the law before.. He is not just a guy that just talks. We don't need people like him, and, I don't see why we have to keep Nazis in society... I think the country fought hard to get rid of that, to see it coming back

[–]dirkt 18ポイント19ポイント  (2子コメント)

And that's why we leave prosecution of crimes to the police, and not to the mob. And if he commits a crime by expressing his beliefs, that has no connection to his right to sit in a Biergarten and drink beer.

Yes, I don't like neonazis. Yes, I'd rejoice if he left. Still, if I start overstepping my bounds in actually molesting people like these, I'm no better than they are.

[–]coolsubmission -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

no you are. But nonetheless it's your right to tell them your opinion. If they decide to leave it's their problem. If they whine about it later on it's pathetic.

[–]dirkt 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of course it's your right to tell them your opinion. I never said otherwise.

[–]sebiroth 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

you realize that his political affiliation is 1 hair away of being a crime.

Well whenever he what he says /does is criminal, there are ways to deal with it, right? If not, who are you to judge? You'll find enough people in this country who would argue that following the Qur'an is "one hair away" from undermining our constitution.

He is not just a guy that just talks

Fine then. Let's treat him appropriately for that.

I think the country fought hard to get rid of that

Which country? Germany? When exactly?

I think we DO have a significant problem with law enforcement (police, verfassungsschutz) turning a blind eye to actual right-wing crime.

The thing about "Freedom of speech" is that it is pretty worthless as soon as you make it "Freedom of certain speech". There are laws against certain transgressions such as slander, personal insults and even things like §130(3) (which is actually problematic as it already constitutes a form of censorship). These really suffice.

I find it irritating how many superficially liberal-minded people take this "no tolerance for intolerance" talk for granted.

[–]labbeduddelFrankfurter Bub 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

so are you a fan of §130? Should we let people talk freely about the wonders of Nationalsozialismus, just because they can?

It is no censorship in anyway, because there is no sane discourse about it. People who usually whine against §130 hide under the excuse of "having a healthy debate about what happened", but we know what happened, it's very well documented. A shitty excuse to justify a bunch of holocaust deniers... As long as people who were in a freaking KZ live, this paragraph should still be valid. These people don't have the balls to go in front of a holocaust survivor to explain them how we misunderstood Hitler.. no?

BTW... I am also for branding any form of extremism illegal, Salafism must in my opinion be named an extremist organization with terrorist groups. This doesn't mean I'm painting all muslims with the same brush, because not all of them agree with extremism. There is though, NO FUCKIN NPD member that can have a sane view of society.

[–]sebiroth -3ポイント-2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Thanks for illustrating my point. Did you know that Salafism per se is not necessarily an extremist view that leads to extremist action? At least no more than orthodox judaism, communism or whatever -ism you choose. Also, it is not an organization. Yet you in your ignorance would decide that these people must be persecuted.

It doesn't matter what laws I'm a fan of or not, and it is not my intention to defend holocaust deniers by any means. But it's no wonder that there's hardly any "sane discourse" because you can't have any discourse if one of the positions is prescribed by law.

And regarding your last sentence (since this discussion has been Godwin'd from the start): declaring people insane and arguing that we don't have to "keep them in society" is exactly the way to the dark side, dude.

[–]labbeduddelFrankfurter Bub 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

but what discourse could be had with holocaust deniers or nazi sympathisers that is sane?

[–]sebiroth -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

but what discourse could be had with ______ that is sane?

Fill in the blank with something different. Jews, Christians, "Putinversteher", whatever you like. Maybe you get the point. The possibility of discourse will always be a good thing, if only to show that the arguments of one side are false/idiotic/"insane"/whatever.

[–]I-fuck-horses -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Strange, I didn't see them do any of that. They were just there o drink beer, not to spread their propaganda.

[–]Luett_un_Luett 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Are you serious? So we should just have a jolly good time with a leading and proven violent Nazi around? We should shut up and let the Nazi be because in this very moment he isn't smashing up someone innocent as he uses to do?

The thing about "Freedom of speech" is that it is pretty worthless as soon as you make it "Freedom of certain speech".

What are you people even talking about? The article is a about a f'cking Nazi and a brave Guy standing up against that Nazi by using his "Freedom of speech".

[–]I-fuck-horses -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Harassment is not free speech. It's harassment. I'm sure I would have participated, but at least I'm aware that's my lowest instincts ruling my behavior.

[–]plspiritBayern 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

not a crime means not a crime, no matter how far away from crime it is.

if you miss the goal by 1mm it's still not a goal

I think the country fought hard to get rid of that, to see it coming back

and that's exactly why you can't have shunning of beliefs, mob justice and free speech not applying to a subset of the population.

that is what the nazis did, what the communists did, what it's like in north korea and the islamic state today (in extreme forms) i don't want any of that, and if the price is to tolerate an intolerant asshole, so be it.

[–]alper -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The German state intentionally reinstituted the nazis after the war. They could have also shot them all but they didn't.

[–]m4xin30n 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

Because if we do, we are just like them. Freedom and free speech has it's price.

Sooo... How do you plan to counter people who try to undermine and exploit freedom of speech? Waving your finger and saying "dudududu, dass darfst du aber nicht, du boeser Mensch?"

It is called 'civil courage', and is well in the rights of every citizen who wants to defend the basic democratic laws in Germany.

'Freedom of speach' does not mean 'Freedom to hate'.

[–]dirkt 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Zivilcourage bedeutet nicht, sich die Aufgaben der Polzei anzumaßen und anfangen, selbst Gewalt auszüben. Das ist strafbar, und zwar aus gutem Grund. Man kann ihm gerne die Meinung sagen, aber das ist auch alles. "Aus dem Biergarten rausschmeißen" kann ihn nur der Besitzer oder die Polizei, kein Möchtegern-Mob.

Ja, du kannst also nur mit dem Finger wedeln. Du kannst das laut genug tun, dass er von selbst geht, aber das ist alles.

Ich hasse Neonazis auch, aber man muss die Grundlagen unserer Gesellschaft selbst respektieren, sonst ist man wirklich nicht besser als diese Gesocks.

[–]HereForTheFish 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ja, du kannst also nur mit dem Finger wedeln. Du kannst das laut genug tun, dass er von selbst geht, aber das ist alles.

Und genau das ist hier doch passiert, wo liegt dein Problem?

[–]dirkt 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dass der Vorposter behauptet hat, man müsse mehr tun.

[–]coolsubmission 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

Because if we do, we are just like them.

wtf?! Don't you relativize a bit too much? Your opinion is really "If i sit next to a violent neo-nazi and tell him that i don't like him and he should fuck off" then i'm just like him?!

[–]plspiritBayern 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

absolutely, vigilante justice is not good, ever. this guy, even if he's the biggest asshole in the universe, has the same right to be in that beergarden than anyone else.

and no it's not suddenly ok if the guy is a nazi a communist or a muslim

No matter how you look at it, it is discrimination of a political belief.

yes. it works both ways, with people you agree with and disagree with, and as long as nobody breaks any law, the people forming the mob are in the wrong.

that's the basis of our Rechtsstaat, the basis of democracy, the basis of freedom and liberty. We can't throw that out of the window for anyone.

[–]MartianSkyBayern -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree. As long as they don't exhibit any hateful or inappropriate behaviour, language or demeanor, they should be left alone - as long as people behave like decent human beings, they should be treated accordingly. For all you know, they might be trying to get out of the scene.
OTOH, in my view, brandishing any typical nazi "dress code" - combat-boots with white laces, pertinant clothing-brands, etc. makes them fair game for public shunning and pillorying because that dresscode is intended to intimidate and expose hateful political viewpoints. (especially when they appear in groups) But AFAICT this was not the case here.

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[–]Wykin 4ポイント5ポイント  (18子コメント)

This harassment wasnt okay. If this Nazi does something he shouldnt do... tell the manager about it so he can get him to leave. If this Nazi does something that is against the law.. call the cops.

Just because you dont like someone for whatever reason doesnt give you the right to harass this person.

[–]ballsinyourm0uth 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I watched the video and didn't see anything I'd call harassment, TBH

[–]Yoda_Holmes -4ポイント-3ポイント  (16子コメント)

He's a fucking nazi. To harass him is the least thing you should do. Nazis should not feel safe and comfortable in public. They need to feel as unpleasant as possible so they have to reconsider their pathetic life.

[–]Sarkaraq 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

So, you want to act against the Grundgesetz rights of a Nazi to defend the Grundgesetz. I wonder if that's the correct way.

[–]coolsubmission -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Tell me, which right does he violate or act against?

[–]Sarkaraq -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Art 1. Abs. 1 GG

Die Würde des Menschen ist unantastbar.

To be shouted at/the exposal to public shame qualifies in my opinion.

Art. 3 Abs. 3 GG

Niemand darf wegen [...] seiner [...] politischen Anschauungen benachteiligt oder bevorzugt werden.

That's obvious, isn't it?

Art. 11 Abs. 1 GG

Alle Deutschen genießen Freizügigkeit im ganzen Bundesgebiet.

This applies for your place of living and for your detention. Exceptions: private room/Hausrecht. That doesn't apply for Stocker, though.

[–]coolsubmission 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

you do know that the GG limits the power of the state, not of the individual? That would be the StGB and other laws.

To be shouted at/the exposal to public shame qualifies in my opinion.

No. Hasselbach is a public political person. His beliefs are known. Being exposed to critics does not violate your dignity. If he feels otherwise he can press charges for e.g. § 185 StGB Beleidigung.

Niemand darf wegen [...] seiner [...] politischen Anschauungen benachteiligt oder bevorzugt werden.

yeah and nobody was benachteiligt. No state-actor pressed any actions against Hasselbach for his "beliefs". If you qualify every criticism of your belief as discrimination against you, you have a really skewed view on the intentions of the GG.

Alle Deutschen genießen Freizügigkeit im ganzen Bundesgebiet.

Again, it's for limiting of state power, but however: He wasn't limited in his freedom of movement. He was declared persona non grata by the other guests. He could've stayed if he wanted.

By your interpretation of the GG and the application of it you can also argue that it was violated the other way round:

His beliefs are diametral to Art 1. Abs. 1+2. You want to deny the rights of the other guests:

Art. 5 (1) Jeder hat das Recht, seine Meinung in Wort, Schrift und Bild frei zu äußern und zu verbreiten

Oh Hasselbach, take note:

Art 18

Wer die Freiheit der Meinungsäußerung, insbesondere die Pressefreiheit (Artikel 5 Abs. 1), die Lehrfreiheit (Artikel 5 Abs. 3), die Versammlungsfreiheit (Artikel 8), die Vereinigungsfreiheit (Artikel 9), das Brief-, Post- und Fernmeldegeheimnis (Artikel 10), das Eigentum (Artikel 14) oder das Asylrecht (Artikel 16a) zum Kampfe gegen die freiheitliche demokratische Grundordnung mißbraucht, verwirkt diese Grundrechte.

[–]Sarkaraq 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

You are correct. My previous post was just stupid and the list of GG Artikeln was just a even more stupid way to save face.

I'd argue that there is some kind of moral point for the individual in the GG. However, I should've probably went with Kant instead of the GG. My bad.

Is Hasselbach really a public person? I never heard of him before and some quick research showed that there is no reason to know more about him, in my opinion. The only thing that is remarkable is that he was already a Nazi leader at age 16.

[–]coolsubmission 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

didn't expect such a reply. kudos to you.

yeah, Hasselbach is a public person. Here's the wiki page. There are already eight press articles about him as sources. If you follow the neonazi scene a little you will see his name every now and then in south germany. He's also political active in party politics?! (parteipolitisch) as he is currently Regional Chairman (Landesvorsitzender) of the party Die Rechte

[–]Wykin 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

And what would the nazis do if the roles would be the opposite. Exactly what he did or worse. I actually want to be better then a nazi.

Its the same with religious people. Let them be as long as they act within the law and it doesnt hurts others it needs to be tolerated. In the end racism is kind of a religion.. a believe. And yes racism does hurt people but so do religious extremists. So in the end we shall only judge the individual person for what the person does and not for what others with the same believe do.

[–]Paedda -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh? And maybe leftist extremists should not feel safe and comfortable either. On second thought, I think Islamists are pretty much against the constitution, too. And maybe Jews? Well, I don't think they are a problem now, but there was a time when everybody just knew Jews were the problem and should absolutely not "feel safe and comfortable" in public.

Who the hell are you to say to whom the freedom of our constitution applies to and to whom it doesn't?

[–]jagermo 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

If you think back, the Nazi movement formed within beer pubs (cellars) in Munich. Based on that alone I think we should be more vigilant than other cities. Good work.

[–]ArancaytarBerlin 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

You know, it's pretty iffy to have a list of people who are categorically forbidden to be seen in public - not just when representing a group or behaving in a particular way, but ever.

[–]LukasBoersma 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

The thing is: Nazis believe they are speaking for the majority of Germans. They think they are the ones who are bold enough to speak up against the foreign-controlled government, and that everybody else is just too afraid of repressions to support them.

Showing them that the vast majority of people is not on their side is very important. These assholes have to know they are not speaking for the people.

[–]Paedda 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm not comfortable with all these people (and media) appointing themselves the judges of Neonazis, just because. And on top of that, the beergarden is probably evil now by association and may await leftist "retaliation" or something. Hopefully it won't go that far.

Please, please advocate, protest, discuss, stand up against Nazi worldviews, opinions, policies, but do not condemn the person unless for specific crimes he has been convicted of. Otherwise you are doing what looks pretty suspiciously like the Nazis were doing themselves: Outlawing people for their political opinion, however extreme.

[–]Steppdeckenwolf 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

do not condemn the person unless for specific crimes he has been convicted of

The man in question has been convicted multiple times. Watching the video made me very uncomfortable, too, though.

[–]Wykin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

When he was convicted he had to deal with the consequences. If you dont like those consequences, you are not happy with the law in Germany.

If so you got 3 options: 1. Do your part to get the law to change (a legal way of course) 2. Dont do anything and suck it up 3. Leave the country

[–]RedditForFreeSpeech -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Doesn't the "Neo-Nazi" have the right to a meal with friends? I don't find this to be very courageous, considering that 90% of Germans don't like this guy. Seems like bullying

[–]audaxxx 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Show your support and give that Nazi a hug.

[–]RedditForFreeSpeech 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

So intolerant, you are a bigger hater than this guy who was cajoled out of the biergarten

[–]audaxxx 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I do not tolerante Nazis, if that means that I am worse than Hitler, so be it. I can live with that.