全 67 件のコメント

[–]RainCityLurkerBest Seattle 49ポイント50ポイント  (12子コメント)

My experience living in the African American community is this: 90% are just regular people who want to get by. Maybe 5% are loudmouth, self-appointed "civil rights" activists, and another 5% are common criminals, scofflaws and felons.

In situations like Ferguson and Baltimore, the activists are taken advantage of by criminals, who use them as cover. The classic example is Antonio French, a nice guy who wants to help his neighborhood, criticizes the police, and gets beaten up and robbed for his trouble by his own people. Gangsters are not idiots, and understand that civil unrest presents many new opportunities to intimidate law enforcement, rob people who otherwise would not be around (journalists and activists), steal from stores, and settle old scores (shootings).

I point all this out to just to reinforce the message: most people in Black America are not rioting, looting, protesting, interrupting Bernie Sanders or doing anything else. They're just normal people trying to get by in a tough situation, and BLM, rioters, protesters and looters do not necessarily represent any of them.

Normal people being reasonable doesn't ever make the news. Just remember that.

[–]seattlite206 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

I think this is right, but at the same time, normal people being reasonable don't seem to be getting the changes they need to escape a historically, culturally, and systemically perpetuated tough situation. When you say they "don't make the news", it's really hard not to read that as "out of sight, out of mind."

By lumping activists in with criminals as "unrepresentative" of the interests of the black community, where or who do we look to, to see improvements? I'm not trying to be a jerk, it's a genuine question.

[–]RainCityLurkerBest Seattle 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

normal people being reasonable don't seem to be getting the changes they need to escape a historically, culturally, and systemically perpetuated tough situation. When you say they "don't make the news", it's really hard not to read that as "out of sight, out of mind."

This is a fair point, and I guess what I mean is that the media gives airtime to sensational garbage because it attracts eyeballs. There are black people in the police department brass, in the Community Police Commission, lobbying the city council, all working for reform... and then there's these two women shouting everybody down at a Sanders rally. And who gets more media coverage? And who is actually doing more to effect change for people?

[–]seattlite206 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I see your point, but I guess we disagree about people "doing enough". I just don't see it when we have set up the CPC in response to a federal judgement. We couldn't even do anything on our own, first.

As a white male liberal, it's really hard to see us not making real progress on these issues. I can't reasonably denigrate attempts to call that out, even if the methods are disruptive, the individuals controversial, etc.

[–]RainCityLurkerBest Seattle 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, it's one thing to be disruptive or controversial. It's another to yell in an old man's face and insult a crowd of thousands who you don't even know.

I just wish the people who are doing the heavy lifting of institutional change got the same attention that the jackasses who play for the camera do.

[–]NPMSRPQueen Anne -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

This! So much this!

There are those of us who have worked behind the scenes on issues of police accountability and racial prejudice in policing that these BLM folks don't even care to know about. Then they go and just shit all over us and everything we've done by calling us white supremacists.

And who gets all the coverage and gets coddled by the media?

It just boils my blood to no end.

[–]onlyinseattleSeattleite-at-Heart 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, not a fan of this characterization:

Maybe 5% are loudmouth, self-appointed "civil rights" activists

[–]BoSoxInThe253 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I genuinely feel bad for the people who are affected by the police shootings. Unjustifiably taking someone's life is literally the worst thing I can imagine. I too sympathize but here's the problem: These BLM folks do not represent me. They are a bunch of disruptive assholes who the police don't seem to want to really square off with (which I can totally understand). If the cops do something about them causing havoc in the streets, the BLM will be tweeting "innocent unarmed black young man beaten relentlessly by racist police" when In reality they handcuffed him, put him in a car and took him to jail for breaking the law. THATS IT. The police are better off letting this shit storm fester and pissing off the rest of us so that we get fed up with them (which I already have) and demand the police do something with our blessing. Because hey if they uphold the law and apply it to these jackasses, Murray will be publically admonishing the police and condoning the lawlessness. The notion that every non-black person is a racist because they don't support these assholes is ridiculous. These activists certainly DO NOT speak for me.

[–]remix951Ballard 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

100% correct. But I don't think he/she was taking about Blacks doing this, just specifically some BLM participants.

[–]RainCityLurkerBest Seattle 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

True, but I have seen a lot of these kinds of discussions on reddit devolve into "why are black people doing X and not Y"?

[–]remix951Ballard 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I guess I can't fault a preemptive strike, but it also can come across as "white people always think X about black people." I'd like to think a similar minority of people are the ones saying "black people always do [insert]."

[–]flannelback 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Excellent point, and I believe it applies to most of the people on the planet. As a songwriter once put it " The lord uses the good ones, and the bad ones use the lord."

[–]im_joeTacoma 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Normal people being reasonable doesn't ever make the news. Just remember that.

I think this hits the nail on the head right here. Well put.

[–]MightyBulger 21ポイント22ポイント  (1子コメント)

Very thoughtful post.

[–]maadison 16ポイント17ポイント  (15子コメント)

I don't have links handy to provide proof, but what I've read is that the apology that seemed to come from the BLM social media accounts actually came from a volunteer who was speaking personally, and some BLM leaders made her withdraw them.

There have also been good explanations for why Sanders was chosen as a target. For one, he has less security, so it was easier. For another, if he is the most leftist candidate and he hasn't embraced/endorsed the BLM movement/message, then he's a good place to start. And in fact he did release a racial justice statement the next day. There are conflicting claims on whether that was because of or despite the protest.

Not my opinions, just reporting what I've read.

[–]DaveSW777 23ポイント24ポイント  (2子コメント)

Two points: Bernie Sanders has openly supported BLM since day one, and he didn't release his plan on racial justice the next day, he had released it weeks ago, he mererly tweeted a link to it again. Sanders is getting horribly shafted by the media.

[–]maadison 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hmmmm. Maybe the page was there all along. The Stranger claims it was made more prominent on Sunday after the protest:

http://www.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/2015/08/09/22671362/bernie-sanders-adds-racial-justice-platform-to-website-says-hes-disappointed-by-seattle-rally-interruption

There's no doubt he had already been supportive of racial justice in his speeches.

[–]seattlite206 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

This was over a month ago. I'm really glad he's catching on, but he hasn't always been making the effort, nor responding in the way you would hope.

[–]ApostleZeruelAlki[S] 14ポイント15ポイント  (11子コメント)

Yeah, here's the original apology, later since retracted, which is evidence that "official" BLM was okay with the Bernie actions. On the other hand, no one, to my knowledge, has apologized for (or even acknowledged) the immigrant-run businesses that were terrorized and destroyed in the name of black lives matter. That, along with reports that BLM demonstrators are intentionally targeting immigrant-run businesses (reports which have not been contradicted or corrected), are making me wonder whether they are, in fact, hostile to the cause of immigrant empowerment, which is very confusing to me. I'd really like some clarity on this!

[–]Johnnyk421 25ポイント26ポイント  (7子コメント)

Dude. Whether it's an immigrant run store, a white person's store, or a black person's store, it's unacceptable. I don't give an F who owns it, there are laws and if you break them, you need to be held accountable.

[–]SnarkMasterRay 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

Yeah, but saying "all lives" matter is somehow bad, so holding the BLM folks to the same laws is just racist, and marginalizing them, man.

[–]Ansible32 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

Blacks are held to different laws. White people walking down the street with guns are just exercising their first amendment rights, black people doing the same thing are thugs.

Black people get pulled over and shot for no reason, white people get a slap on the wrist.

[–]BoSoxInThe253 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't know if that's entirely true.

[–]Ansible32 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Black people are more likely to be shot by the police for no reason. It's clear for some police officers this is malicious racism, not just happenstance. I really don't care if it's only partially true, there's still a racist contingent in the police force that is committed to hurting black people any way they can, and BLM is totally right to be angry.

[–]SnarkMasterRay 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Is it all race or is it partially cultural? I know that I feel equally uncomfortable sitting next to white gang bangers as black ones and equally at ease with black business men as I do white ones. I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist, but that sometimes I think we oversimplify.

[–]Ansible32 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

How do you perceive someone as a businessman?

If you take a white businessman and put him in a hoodie on the weekend and a black businessman and put him in the same hoodie, are you sure you are going to identify them both as businessmen on their day off?

In any case, I don't believe anyone is going to react exactly the same to a black guy in a suit as a white guy in a suit. It's just not the way humans are wired.

Now you can say "oh but it's partly cultural" but the fact is that all other things being equal you're more likely to believe the black guy is a gang-banger than the white guy.

[–]SnarkMasterRay 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's just not the way humans are wired.

I'm wired to try and fuck every woman I see. Doesn't mean I believe or act that way. Wiring is only part of the equation.

[–]maadison 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

I hesitate to say much about the targeting of other communities because I don't know much about it, so up front I admit I may be wrong about what I'm saying below. That said...

The first article you linked to says:

They pointed them toward Chinese- and Arab-owned stores.

What's not clear to me is whether they had an axe to grind with the Chinese and Arabs, or whether they were just pointing people to stores not owned by Black people. If you look at the map above the quote, it mentions "CVS looted". CVS is a big chain store and would be seen as predominantly owned by white people, right? Apparently it was targeted too.

My impression is that many of the convenience stores in poorer neighborhoods everywhere are run by immigrants, mostly non-white immigrants. So if there's a riot in a poor neighborhood, and the rioters avoid their own ethnicity, it's going to hit some other non-white ethnicities, even if it's not racially motivated.

[–]ApostleZeruelAlki[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Did you listen to the NPR article? I think it gives a larger context into what I'm talking about.

[–]maadison 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I hadn't yet because I often don't want to spend the time to wait through the whole piece to get to the actually relevant part.

I just listened to it. I noticed at some point they said roughly "across Baltimore lots of businesses owned by Black people were vandalized, but not on this street". It seems that the tension in that specific neighborhood in Baltimore was more at a personal level, individual people reacting to the specific history they had with those stores. (I'm not trying to say it was justified.) What I don't hear is that it's part of the BLM movement to target specific ethnicities.

I find it both easy and hard to understand why people resort to violent protest. It's the same with protests here in Seattle and events like the MayDay parade. I would consider participating in marches for causes I support if I were more confident that the event isn't going to turn ugly. I wish the Black community would achieve its aims through non-violent means. But at the same time, I understand the anger and frustration are running high when there's one black person after another shot by police. By the people who are supposed to be there to "serve and protect". It sucks that it comes out against other ethnic groups, it's wrong, but it's also easy to understand how it happens. I think the right solution is to fix the problems that generate the protests in the first place.

[–]gjhgjh 15ポイント16ポイント  (5子コメント)

Many in the crowd the demonstrators called "white supremacist liberals" were older immigrants (largely latino/a or Asian Pacific Islander) who genuinely felt that Social Security and Medicare (the original intent of the event) had made a positive change in their lives.

It sounds like someone is being judged on the color of their skin instead of the content of their character. If it wasn't politically incorrect to call an African-American racist the BLM protestors would have been rightfully called racists. It's difficult to get someone to understand that they are being racist when they believe that they are the ones who are having racism committed against them.

Or I'll hear that "these people don't represent BLM." But who gets to decide that? These crimes occurred at BLM-sanctioned events, as far as I can see.

While I would not go as far to call BLM protestors terrorists there are some very clear parallels between the relationship of BLM protestors to the African-American community and the relationship of Muslim extremist to the Muslim community.

[–]onlyinseattleSeattleite-at-Heart 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

there are some very clear parallels between the relationship of BLM protestors to the African-American community and the relationship of Muslim extremist to the Muslim community.

Such as?

[–]gjhgjh 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

The communities that the protestors and extremest claim to represent do not recognize their representation.

[–]ApostleZeruelAlki[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not so sure about that. I haven't heard anyone identifying as BLM apologize for the destruction in Baltimore (and, recently Ferguson), or even indicate that that isn't what their movement is about. On the other hand, I've seen Muslim leaders across the spectrum denounce the actions of those who claim to represent them.

[–]Ansible32 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

The terrorist extremists are the police force. BLM is an extremely reasonable, measured response to the continued harassment and murder by the establishment.

[–]onlyinseattleSeattleite-at-Heart 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What does that have to do with Muslim extremists in particular?

[–]doplebangerUniversity of Washington 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't think they have a stance on such issues. Their platform is just kinda "black lives matter." I don't know that it goes on to have a second or third sentence.

[–]Furdinand 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

When members are deciding that some issues are subordinate (Social Security) to the point that they deserve to be suppressed in favor of BLM, it would help to know what else they consider unworthy of discussion. If BLM is going to say that they are more important than Climate Change, I want to know.

[–]flannelback 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's starting to sound like they should modify it to Only Black Lives Matter.

[–]SAWANT_FUCKING_SUCKS 15ポイント16ポイント  (8子コメント)

I think BLM does more harm than good. They need to pick their battles better.

With that being said, I oppose illegal immigration. Legal immigration I am all for, but do it the right way and respect those who also did it the right way.

[–]ApostleZeruelAlki[S] 17ポイント18ポイント  (6子コメント)

Thanks for your reply! Unfortunately, it's nearly impossible for people to do it "the right way" anymore - the visa backlog is nearly 20 years in many cases.

[–]Johnnyk421 -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

So your argument is "because the backlog is too long, illegal immigration should be permitted"?

[–]nctuffin 20ポイント21ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the better argument is to change the immigration laws to reflect need over arbitrary 7% qoutas

[–]Ansible32 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What are they harming? What is the danger of doing nothing?

The two that interrupted Sanders picked a poor time, if not necessarily a poor target. BLM in general...

I'm assuming you're a white person who doesn't need to worry too much about getting killed during a routine traffic stop. If the police force were actively harassing your family, wouldn't you do some less than friendly things trying to stop that?

[–]RadicalKid 4ポイント5ポイント  (11子コメント)

Maybe take this to a political sub.

[–]ApostleZeruelAlki[S] 18ポイント19ポイント  (8子コメント)

Yeah, probably a good idea. Do you have one in mind, perhaps? Will I get in trouble for re-posting this? I don't want to be divisive or deny the fact that BLM has a legitimate grievance - I'm genuinely interested in a conversation as to how the movement relates to the immigrant rights movement.

[–]balancetheuniverseWest Seattle 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

Keep it here. Politics and religion are hot button issues due to massive amounts of misinformation and a malaise in the population to change their views. When people want you to cordon your conversation elsewhere (especially online) they're inadvertantly suggesting either they are incapable of discussions like that or will inherently disagree with discussion period. Don't listen to idiots :-)

[–]carelessNorth Capitol Hill[M] 18ポイント19ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is a perfectly acceptable post to this sub.

[–]watchout5 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good on OP not calling anyone names.

[–]dump_cake -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Since you linked articles about Baltimore, why not post this on /r/baltimore?

They may have more insight on this question than anyone in /r/seattle, as the two cities are extremely different in nearly every way imaginable.

[–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]ApostleZeruelAlki[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

    In many cases they were, in fact! For example

    Edit - format

    [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–]ApostleZeruelAlki[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Sorry for lazy link service - maybe this is more what you were looking for?