上位 200 件のコメント表示する 500

[–]JWrundle 584ポイント585ポイント  (66子コメント)

The Loras character in the show is probably one of the most egregious objectification I have seen on the show they have reduced a strong character to the "gay one". How do we know he's gay because if he is on screen he is either having sex with a dude or is talking about having sex with a dude. The TV character Loras is just gay and that's it.

[–]QueefLatinaTheThird 298ポイント299ポイント  (31子コメント)

And renly was boiled down to the gay king, rather than the charismatic one. Very disappointing.

[–]remmick 221ポイント222ポイント  (18子コメント)

In the books, Renly isn't just charismatic: he attends the small council meetings and knows how to run the realm, he genuinely cares about the welfare of the small folk, he competes in the tourney of the hand and is a competent warrior.

The thing is ... when Ned turns down Renly's offer of insurrection, you're supposed to think Ned's an idiot for doing so.

[–]peenoid 68ポイント69ポイント  (14子コメント)

I hadn't read the books at that point (yet) and I certainly thought Ned was stupid for turning him down. Renly was clearly the best option, rites of succession be damned.

Ned was, like Stannis, bound by the "rules" rather than by pragmatism, and in difficult times being practical over being idealistic is a virtue. Practicality allows you to adapt to radically changing circumstances. Idealism just gets you and other people killed.

edit: I don't mean to imply being practical is always better than being ideal. Clearly you need to carefully consider the consequences of your choices. Ned did not, choosing instead to blindly follow the rules, and look where that got everyone.

[–]alexanderwales 39ポイント40ポイント  (1子コメント)

rites of succession be damned

What are we, wildlings?

[–]sewitt 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

On the other hand, sometimes ideals are worth holding even when they don't appear to be worth it.

You're making a broad statement of values and philosophy as though it's a simple fact. That's a bit silly.

There is a lot of value to the idea of holding to an ideal in the face of a negative consequence (aka 1st amendment allowing the KKK to hold rallies no matter how vile it is). Especially when it relates to authority and government.

[–]remmick 6ポイント7ポイント  (6子コメント)

He's kind of the opposite of Bilbo -- when Bilbo's pity stayed his hand, that's what saved him from the Ring's evil, but Ned's pity for Cersei and her kids gets him axed.

[–]Sieziggy 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

What I like about Ned is his character kind of justifies the horrible things that the other characters do. His adherence to traditions, honor, and the rule of law seems noble at first but as events play out demonstrate his naivety. In the end his rigidity nearly eliminates his lineage and generates a huge amount of instability across the region.

[–]sabbathrules 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's also just an amazing literary technique as well. Ned is the main character, who is by far the 'goodest' guy, so you assume people he associates with are good as well. Only after he's gone do you begin to hear and experience from other characters just how wrong he was about everything. That naivety gets put onto the audience since Ned is the primary narrator at first.

[–]KnightOfSummer 73ポイント74ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think Renly's depiction was even worse. With Loras they at least showed him to be a capable knight in a few scenes and a bit arrogant, which fits the books imo. The only thing they changed is that he constantly has sex, which is HBOs thing I guess.

Edit: forgot he doesn't join the Kingsguard in the series, which is kind of important. Still, he's not as different from the books as Renly is I think.

Renly on the other hand, who is supposed to hunt and enjoy tournaments is suddenly afraid of blood? Who came up with that and why?

[–]Shaqsquatch 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

He had his moments on the show at least (the fire and smoke quip, for example), but he was definitely a much weaker character than book Renly.

[–]LNGLY 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

even the actor's physique was all wrong

book renly was described as looking like robert during his prime

[–]romafa 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

I liked Renly in season 1.

[–]BadSmash4 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

So did I, but they misrepresented what he was in the books. He was much more than what they portrayed him to be.

[–]terminal11235813 19ポイント20ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's kind of annoying because you only know that book Loras is gay if read between the lines.

[–]Voodoo_Tiki 20ポイント21ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yea he's supposed to be a really great Knight and we barely see him in action

[–]llama_luff 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

The problem with the show is they don't have time for proper character development especially since there are so many characters. Sir Loras isn't a hugely important character in the book. Lots of events occur that involve him but he doesn't really make any moves for the crown so he's relatively unimportant.

[–]34GG 104ポイント105ポイント  (4子コメント)

“My personal experience has been to work on phenomenal jobs in which the men are objectified as much as the women,” she said.

This is a pretty different comment from what's in the headline.

[–]971302938536718345 3081ポイント3082ポイント  (727子コメント)

I have to say, I literally give no shits if anyone is objectified on TV

[–]F0sh 1184ポイント1185ポイント  (274子コメント)

I don't even see why objectification is so terrible a thing. No-one's explained why being seen as a "mere sexual object" is so bad, when most people I ever meet are not really people to me, but may as well be cardboard cutouts I see on the street. Every so often, one of those people will view me as a "mere reaching object" and ask me to fetch something from a shelf (I'm taller than average) or a "mere knowledgeable object" and ask me for directions. Often I use them as some kind of mere object, too.

And so fucking what? Not every interaction with someone has to consider them in all their wonderful multifaceted human glory.

EDIT: fuck the gold, I thank whoever, for the first time, linked to me on SRS! I've finally made it!

EDIT2: more serious. A lot of people evidently don't get why anyone could possibly question why objectification is bad when, clearly, slavery and getting shitty with people who refuse you sex is not nice. Well, the answer is that "objectification" in the sense of this article is not the same thing. Representing people as mere objects in a TV show is not the same thing as treating someone as a mere object with no desires or agency in real life.

[–]bukkakesasuke 497ポイント498ポイント  (147子コメント)

The complaints come from a time in the 60s when there were five channels on TV and women literally were only portrayed as sexual objects or sexual objectives. This isn't the case any more.

As a comparison, there's nothing wrong with the dopey dad trope as a concept, but imagine if you turned on TV and literally every portrayal of a man was as an idiot dad who didn't care about his children and let his wife think for him. Now imagine this was the main entertainment and what everyone did when they got home and talked about at the water cooler. If you were a dad, that'd get old real fast. It'd definitely be old by the twentieth year of watching television. That's why objectification was a huge issue for feminists, and still is for many (even though things are way better).

[–]Shoebreadface 128ポイント129ポイント  (13子コメント)

but imagine if you turned on TV and literally every portrayal of a man was as an idiot dad who didn't care about his children and let his wife think for him

So every single advert for home cleaning products.

[–]Clumpy 26ポイント27ポイント  (6子コメント)

What's that Brian Regan bit about the Homer Simpson of the family getting tangled in the blinds in the background while Longsuffering Housewife talks about some product?

[–]JoshSidekick 48ポイント49ポイント  (5子コメント)

It's the bit he does about the Homer Simpson of the family getting tangled in the blinds in the background while Long-suffering Housewife talks about some product.

[–]NVSM-Lemonhug 241ポイント242ポイント  (65子コメント)

imagine if you turned on TV and literally every portrayal of a man was as an idiot dad who didn't care about his children and let his wife think for him

Do you mean all successful sitcoms, ever?

Edit: Thanks to the 100+ replies I now know that literally everything will be taken literally unless I use literally quite literally in the sentence. I get there's a few that break this mould (FYI 2 1/2 men does not). The point is male stereotypes are used just as often as female stereotypes, like black people stereotypes and jewish stereotypes and all stereotypes.

[–]running_from_larry 59ポイント60ポイント  (51子コメント)

Except Seinfeld, largely considered one of the best sitcoms ever made. Also Always Sunny in Philadelphia, which will become the longest running live action sitcom ever made by the end of it's contract.

[–]Lerker- 65ポイント66ポイント  (15子コメント)

Well, the "dad" in sunny is kinda dopey and doesn't care about his kids much... but no one cares and that's the point of the show

[–]sherekhantwait 61ポイント62ポイント  (14子コメント)

No dopey means something pretty specific. Frank isn't an idiot. He's absolutely nuts but not dopey. Charlie is dopey

[–]Im_not_lonely 89ポイント90ポイント  (9子コメント)

I pictured the gang reading your comment and having a big argument about it until they sign up on reddit and frank winds up moderating some obscure subreddit about snails getting drunk. He makes a youtube channel and makes like 40K off it

[–]deep-end 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

"do you imbeciles see what you're doing? you're falling for these loser's traps, begging for little points like dog treats and the audience is drunk and loving it"

"welllll uh-okay dennis but it looks like to me that you're at zero dog treats, which is really ironic, because me and frank ran out of them last night as well"

"you two feed your cats dog treats?!"

"we don't feed our cats anything"

"shutup you fools, that can't be right, as if a bunch of keyboard vermin don't appreciate the lessons that my genius of comedy could teach them"

"hey dennis?"

"what!"

"there's something wrong with this website, I went to the hardbodies section and for some reason there is only women, I think this website might be a liberal news rag"

[–]Stiboon 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well Frank has proof he doesn't have donkey brains but the others not so much.

[–]por_bloody_que 15ポイント16ポイント  (2子コメント)

We're considering Frank Reynolds a role model here? Dr. Mantis goddamn Toboggan?

[–]Proftayo 40ポイント41ポイント  (13子コメント)

Except there is no dad figure in Seinfeld because they are adults. And on always sunny their dad is literally a dopey idiot who is also an asshole and lives with their illiterate idiot friend. So your point is kind of moot.

[–]sherekhantwait 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fresh Prince of Bel Air, the Cosby Show, Full House. The list goes on of successful shows that didn't do it.

[–]waitthissucks 11ポイント12ポイント  (5子コメント)

I feel like Roseanne was not like that

[–]peniscurve 21ポイント22ポイント  (2子コメント)

Roseanne had moments where it portrayed the dad as an idiot, quite often. It also presented spousal abuse in a humorous way, with Roseanne hitting Dan with a frying pan. Despite all of that, it was still a great show, and really went against what everything else was at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnauiv9MdM8

[–]HowIsntBabbyFormed 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Roseanne had moments where it portrayed the dad as an idiot, quite often.

And moments where Roseanne was the idiot and Dan was the level-headed smart one who could get things done. I think it was pretty even-handed.

[–]0therworldly 7ポイント8ポイント  (11子コメント)

This is such a great comparison.

[–]gcdyq 5ポイント6ポイント  (10子コメント)

Asians are objectified. I don't get why the Asians always have to be the villains in Hollywood movies. Is it some kind of stereotype sprinkled with xenophobia?

[–]prollynotathrowaway 12ポイント13ポイント  (7子コメント)

Asians!?? Shit, how do you think the Russians feel. I don't think I've ever seen a "good guy" Russian on TV or in the Movies.

Ed: Not sure why I capitalized movies but I'm leaving it.

[–]mak484 150ポイント151ポイント  (60子コメント)

I think 'objectifying' does more than make women look like sex prizes. It reinforces the notion that all women participate in some activities but not others, and it's okay to talk to women as though they're children about these activities. If this seems completely stupid and wrong to you, you probably live in a more populated, white collar area. This is very much a thing in rural, redneck, low income/education areas.

I happen to live in one of these towns, and the passive sexism is shocking. My wife and I went to a nice bar (for the area) and she asked the server how much a martini would cost. Cue the bartender, a man in his 50s, waddling over to lecture my wife on how "dry" and "strong" martinis are, and how she'd be "much happier" with a fruity drink. My wife is also completely unable to call car shops to ask literally anything. It's a foregone conclusion that, because she's a young woman, she has zero clue how cars work, and she can be readily taken advantage of. If the two of us call the same shop for the same problem we'll get two different answers, with hers almost always being more expensive. Even other women are sexist towards each other. If I mention my wife is going to look under the car to see if the catalytic converter is still attached, the women I work for ask, "She's okay doing that?" The not-so-subtle tone implying both 'she's a woman and she's okay crawling under a car?' and 'you're a man and you're not doing it for her?'

It's like living in a completely different decade. And almost all of the shows people around here watch pander to this lifestyle, and there certainly isn't a shortage of said shows.

[–]iTomes 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wouldnt that be more of a combination of generalizing and patronizing though? IIRC objectification means reducing a person or character to a single function to be used rather than as an individual being with their own agency and personality, so I don't really see how that reinforces generalizing sexist stereotypes about either gender. Objectification is actually something very common both in the real world and in media with both genders, its just that when sex is involved certain groups of people tend to lose their shit and get mad.

[–]mcnealrm 19ポイント20ポイント  (1子コメント)

Actually there's a really great feminist work called "Overcoming Objectification" which addresses this very argument. Rather than looking at it is a reduction of the self to one's body or merely being an object for sex, Cahill changes the tool to derivatization. In which case, one is not recognized in her full complexity of a human being, but is regarded as a derivative or only to the extent that she fulfills the desires/expectations/projections of the other. The problem isnt that derivatization happens, but that it is greatly unfairly distributed toward marginalized people derivatized the dominant individuals.

[–]ckailmeb 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Your point is very valid. Unfortunately you're also ahead of the curve.

Many people don't consciously realize that objectification is an everyday brain action. In your examples, the simplification of human interaction is not only acceptable but also practical and effective. But objectification becomes a problem when people do it in inappropriate contexts and frequency (ex. intimate relationships).

I guess people blame tv for encouraging the bad kind of objectification.

[–]watda70 404ポイント405ポイント  (208子コメント)

I don't even know what it means. Objectified. Do they think men look at women like we'd look at a really hot door knob? A sexy lamp? Mmm...look how shiny it is.

[–]texacer 364ポイント365ポイント  (37子コメント)

I happen to love lamp.

[–]Seanzilla77 159ポイント160ポイント  (12子コメント)

Do you really love the lamp? Or are you just looking around the room saying you love things?

[–]AnomalyUndetected 119ポイント120ポイント  (4子コメント)

I love Cheetos!

I love fedora!

I love Kumiko, my silicone sex mannequin.

[–]theo__ 41ポイント42ポイント  (2子コメント)

Kimiko is... it is here like any other object. Objects are made by men and used for many purposes. But we never love objects.

[–]xAvaricex 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't know what we're yelling about!

[–]ExF-Altrue 10ポイント11ポイント  (10子コメント)

LAMP or WAMP are pretty useful tools, I give you that.

[–]jlablah 170ポイント171ポイント  (47子コメント)

TV objectifies everything. They are not people, they are actors. The actors are like puppets that the storyteller uses to tell the story. We don't care about the people, we care about their performance. We care about their appearance.

No, nobody really cares about the actor. In fact it's nearly impossible to care about an actor because you don't know the actor, you can't know the actor, because all you know are characters that they play. And then when they come on talk shows to promote their shows, that's another performance. So what you know is a performance. We pick some aspect of them, their appearance, their style, their success in a performance for which they were only marginally responsible and we appreciate them for that, and then when that's gone we dump them like yesterday's news and move on to the next thing. Because the show must go on!

Actors in many ways encourage this. They do magazine shoots, playboy, they show you their wealth in reality shows. They do it to get fame, but what fame really is, is objectification. We use them and their lives to live out our fantasies. But they are normal people with normal problems, but we elevate them to something much more than that, we elevate them to "gods". Well those gods are objects through which we seek divination and salvation. Humans can't live up to these platitudes. So inevitably we destroy them through this process. We build them up too much and then we easily tear them down. That's what the taboloids do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification

According to the philosopher Martha Nussbaum, a person might be objectified if one or a selection of the following properties are adhered to:

Instrumentality - as a tool for another's purposes: "The objectifier treats the object as a tool of his or her purposes"

The actor is an instrument of the story teller, the director, etc.

Denial of Autonomy - as if lacking in agency or self-determination: "The objectifier treats the object as lacking in autonomy and self-determination"

The actor has to play the part. They don't actually get to choose much of that. They do as they are told and are told they are very privileged to have this position and if they don't do as they are told they get a bad reputation and they don't get any more work... their star fades in a few years.

Inertness - as if without action: "The objectifier treats the object as lacking in agency, and perhaps also in activity"

Again the actor has to do what they are told. They audition for the show and if they are luck they get the part and then do exactly as they are told by the director.

Fungibility - as if interchangeable: "The objectifier treats the object as interchangeable (a) with other objects of the same type, and/or (b) with objects of other types"[1] Violability - as if permissible to damage or destroy (Violence): "The objectifier treats the object as lacking in boundary integrity, as something that it is permissible to break up, smash, break into"

Actors often get treated this way, for instance the whole nudity scandals. And they definitely get treated this way by the industry, directors, producers, etc.

Ownership - as if owned by another: "The objectifier treats the object as something that is owned by another, can be bought or sold, etc"[1]

Contract.

Denial of Subjectivity - as if there is no need for concern for their feelings and experiences: "The objectifier treats the object as something whose experience and feelings (if any) need not be taken into account"[1]

Be professional. Do your job.

A lot of work is like this. A lot of work is objectification of a person to an instrument used by someone else to do something. How they feel, what they are going through, etc. is irrelevant.

[–]immortal_joe 47ポイント48ポイント  (10子コメント)

As we should. Great paintings like the Mona Lisa aren't about the girl that posed for it (assuming there even was one), it's about the art.

[–]Magic_Apple_Donut 32ポイント33ポイント  (4子コメント)

I always imagined that it was just a prostitute he was trying to impress so he wouldn't have to pay..

[–]o0joshua0o 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

Athletes are also objectified. We only care about their performance. Office workers are, too, for the same reason. In fact, anyone who is not objectified regularly is living in a better world than mine.

[–]NotMyNameActually 102ポイント103ポイント  (33子コメント)

It means being treated as the object vs. the subject. Who in the story gets to do stuff vs. who in the story has stuff done to them.

If writers have a male viewer in mind, it is most often the male character(s) who get to do stuff, and the female characters have stuff done to them, mostly sex and violence. Many plots of movies are: Woman gets killed, man seeks revenge. Woman gets kidnapped, man rescues her. Man loves woman, woos her, wins her. All of this is women being treated like objects rather than subjects. The story isn't about them, not about their thoughts, feelings, needs, or wants. They are there as pawns or prizes.

I really doubt this happens to men as much. It happens sometimes, but almost always when the whole point is to make a film that flips the usual dynamic. It's definitely not the default.

[–]TheRealTravisClous 45ポイント46ポイント  (19子コメント)

Man loves woman, woos her, wins her

Isn't that kind of how real life works too? I've never been asked out by a woman because to quote one girl I know, men are supposed to ask the girls out.

[–]TotesMessenger 63ポイント64ポイント  (34子コメント)

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)

[–]stevo1078 87ポイント88ポイント  (3子コメント)

You made the big time buddy! This is like 1 step down from getting gold.

[–]avian_buddha 47ポイント48ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'd rather get linked to SRS than get gold.

[–]antigravity21 20ポイント21ポイント  (1子コメント)

You're just saying that for the gold.

[–]PitchforkEmporium 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Get your Midas touch outta here

[–]Debased27 79ポイント80ポイント  (11子コメント)

SRS is here to do two things: eat ice cream and complain. And it looks like they just finished off all the ice cream.

[–]wayward-gavabond 26ポイント27ポイント  (0子コメント)

So now they'll complain until their parents get to the store and buy them some more.

[–]SergeantJezza 37ポイント38ポイント  (6子コメント)

Don't forget brigading people who disagree with them!

[–]antigravity21 40ポイント41ポイント  (13子コメント)

I never really looked at /r/ShitRedditSays before, and wow... A whole sub on reddit where all people do is talk about how much they hate reddit. I can't even imagine what sitting down for family dinner with some of these people is like. Sheesh. Go outside and find something in the world to enjoy. It will be worth it.

[–]digbick117 14ポイント15ポイント  (7子コメント)

Go take a look at what happened to /r/punchablefaces. An entire subreddit of 63k people.

[–]b_wayne28 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

Did they really brigade and hijack the entire fucking subreddit? And this doesn't constitute brigading, thus violating reddit rules?

[–]digbick117 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Probably, but the top mod kicked out all of the other mods, then brought in their own, who happily did their SRS thing. Technically through legal channels, but I would still consider this brigading.

Not sure if anything will be done about it, however.

[–]Vladimir_Is_Pootin 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm guessing they don't have families they interact with.

[–]J-Unleashed 38ポイント39ポイント  (5子コメント)

You have been linked to SRS, my friend. You deserve gold.

[–]fallenKlNG 71ポイント72ポイント  (107子コメント)

I literally can't imagine why anyone would care to begin with. These people know what they're signing up for.

[–]25teratera 119ポイント120ポイント  (45子コメント)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ork9ERkmzgs

The reason they had to spell it out that men are also objectified on the show as well because of the hypocritical nut jobs see a fictitious female get harm on a show and wants to treat it like a crime against humanity, it perpetuates rape culture, it's sexist, it's misogyny, so let's get it banned. Like GTA game or spider woman cover....while ignoring the fact many male characters have their own blight or same treatment. Most rational people understand it's entertainment, but some radical ideology don't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB6TiRJNI-Q

[–]Flugalgring 105ポイント106ポイント  (11子コメント)

http://maddox.xmission.com/spiderman_animated_ass.gif

Offensive. Not offensive. Offensive. Not offensive. Offensive. Not offensive....

[–]cibernike 29ポイント30ポイント  (4子コメント)

I find the Spider woman cover offensive, not because of the pose, but because its drawn like shit. Her face is disgusting.

[–]Michauxonfire 16ポイント17ポイント  (2子コメント)

I dislike the pose as a whole. Feels way too uncomfortable. It offends my lack of flexibility.

[–]FilmCurb 52ポイント53ポイント  (3子コメント)

There was such an outcry with the SpiderWoman cover, I found it hilarious how they didn't realize she was doing the same exact pose he does in many, many covers

[–]mrsmall53 18ポイント19ポイント  (2子コメント)

especially an outcry from magazines like Elle which has women in provocative pose on their front covers.

[–]Apoplectic1 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Those women are empowered women who consented to pose like that, Spiderwoman gave no such consent to be drawn like that!!!

/s

[–]Qapiojg 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It always starts with the gifs. What, are you going to tell me that monkeys are a problem next?

[–]dafragsta 42ポイント43ポイント  (21子コメント)

I remember Claire McCaskill calling out Sansa's rape. I definitely have a lot of socialist, left leaning ideas, but she's proof that Democrats are just as ignorant and rhetorical as Republicans. No problems with Theon Greyjoy's mutilation, but Sansa's rape? That's a bridge too far. Give me a fucking break. The show is brutal and everyone gets brutalized, including other women not popular enough to be America's water cooler talk. Rape is a terrible crime, but it's only one of many depicted on the show that victimize and traumatize.

[–]big_cheddars 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

This conversation came up last year when Jaime and Cersei had sex in the sept of Baelor and it could be viewed as nonconsensual, but that' not really what I took from it given their relationship in the past.

At the time my main point was that a show in which a young girl becomes a queen, a mother of dragons, has an army of thousands of loyal soldiers and wants to literally end slavery in the world is one of the principal characters, is not a show that has a problem with strong female characters.

[–]GumdropGoober 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

That spider woman cover was just drawn like shit.

Draw a cupcake with messed up sprinkles and I'm gonna be pissed too.

[–]nerfAvari 22ポイント23ポイント  (1子コメント)

But would you critique the work in a way that shows you don't like the design or would you cry sexism in order to get it changed?

[–]Ryanimf 26ポイント27ポイント  (38子コメント)

People that are really into identity politics believe it hurts women in real life.

[–]calle30 21ポイント22ポイント  (37子コメント)

But at the same time when it happens to men it does not hurt them at all according to those same people.

[–]mrsmall53 345ポイント346ポイント  (86子コメント)

I also hate when the media always say "why are women treated bad in Game of Thrones"? Its not like men don't get treated bad in this show

[–]odusanyaka 224ポイント225ポイント  (61子コメント)

Dude multiple men get their dicks cut off, nothing worse than that.....well except burning kids which has also happened a lot...

[–]Kandoh 288ポイント289ポイント  (52子コメント)

There is actually an army of castrated soldiers. I've never heard anyone have a problem with this. In fact I've heard jokes.

Like, try imagining the shit that would go down if there was an army of women who have their uterus removed and then their vagina's sewn shut.

[–]chaosanc 128ポイント129ポイント  (9子コメント)

That's actually a good example. Imagine if there was an army of women who've all had there vaginas sewn shut or have had female circumcision to make sex painful or non existent for them. I have to think that wouldn't be taken as lightly as male castration. Or even imagine a female being tortured in the way Theon was including his sexual taunting. While female objectification is a very real thing, I think the most equivalent aspect is the often expendable nature of men in history and in art.

[–]TheLieLlama 17ポイント18ポイント  (7子コメント)

Just think back to the outcry that happened when Black Widow's origins were revealed in AoU. Basically the same thing.

[–]SurprisedSquee 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

I haven't seen the movie. What was the outcry over?

[–]xinater [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Since your asking im going to assume you dont mind spoilers, so here goes

Black widow was raised in a spy orphanage, and at the end of their training they were operated on so that they could never have kids, because kids are a distraction.

and that was enough for people to get mad, that the choice was taken from her or something

[–]mrsmall53 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

josh whedon had to delete his twitter from all those outcries.

[–]AlGoreBestGore 41ポイント42ポイント  (14子コメント)

And each of those castrated soldiers had to murder a puppy, in order to complete their training.

[–]keyboyx 25ポイント26ポイント  (9子コメント)

It's been a while since I read the book in which they were introduced, but wasn't it a newborn they had to kill to complete their training?

[–]Kandoh 31ポイント32ポイント  (6子コメント)

I think both, they are given a puppy to raise after they are cut, this puppy comforts them and is basically their best friend. Then the masters make them murder it.

At the end of their training they must find a slave mother with a newborn and kill the babe right in front of her.

[–]CountLaFlare 22ポイント23ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not only that, a dude literally had his tit cut off as well as his dick. that's like a negative hannah montanna. worst of both worlds.

[–]aharm82 59ポイント60ポイント  (8子コメント)

For some reason, physical violence=ok, but if there's a hint of any sexual element to it, it's not ok. People are more comfortable with a man being tortured with fire than they are a man punching a girls butt without her consent.

[–]PlatonicTroglodyte 19ポイント20ポイント  (1子コメント)

The Onion had a skit a while back about a Murder Mystery party where people acted out the parts and solved the crime etc., but then instead they went for a "less serious crime" and made it a Rape Mystery game, and the one girl there drew the part of the victim and was all like wtf. (I'm paraphrasing I don't remember the skit too well...saw it years ago). It was pretty intriguing to me, not that we overhype rape, but how we underhype murder and juat accept that it happens all the time and is ok to turn into a game.

[–]Morrinn3 43ポイント44ポイント  (2子コメント)

“My personal experience has been to work on phenomenal jobs in which the men are objectified as much as the women".

If this is the quote they're basing that headline on, I can see a key missed context...

[–]Drunken_dog 202ポイント203ポイント  (29子コメント)

She's 33? She looks way younger.

[–]MaxFreedomMoussa 68ポイント69ポイント  (8子コメント)

WTF? I thought early 20s...

[–]MoocowR 92ポイント93ポイント  (5子コメント)

You should probably go outside more if you think she looks like as college student.

[–]MarchHill [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I was thinking the same thing. At the youngest, she looks like she's 27-28.

[–]Patchface- 47ポイント48ポイント  (8子コメント)

She's been around for a while. In Tudors she's gorgeous and a fantastic actress, as always.

[–]n0aaa 161ポイント162ポイント  (24子コメント)

interesting how guys on TV never wear T-shirts and are always ripped.

[–]The_Tree_Of_Woe 100ポイント101ポイント  (3子コメント)

And both men and women in movies tend to have unrealistically good careers, an unrealistic amount of quality friends, a total lack of emotional problems, etc. Film is escapism, and a lot of the time characters have it better than we do so as to not be depressing or remind us of our problems. The tropes of waiters living in a big New York apartment, or a group of friends being able to sleep around with each other and that not shattering the group, etc. Even if there is a problem, like cancer, typically everything else is good so they can focus on overcoming that one struggle.

Now of course, not all films and shows are this way, but a majority of them are.

[–]bakuninsbart 51ポイント52ポイント  (3子コメント)

MIT scientist has two PhD's and works in a leading position at NASA -> spends 2 hours a day in the gym and 1 in the tanning salon...

[–]5654632564 29ポイント30ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think your TV has been hacked and redirected to a gay porn channel

[–]thatsmyjelly 30ポイント31ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah that's it someone hacked me and changed it

[–]StaticDreams 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I always say it was a popup

[–]the-native 139ポイント140ポイント  (26子コメント)

If you're an adult, and you don't like the way writers portray fictional characters, turn it off. You're an adult, go do something else. If you're worried about how TV or movies may influence your children to objectify women... don't let the TV raise your children.

[–]dragon-storyteller 32ポイント33ポイント  (4子コメント)

Since when are adults not allowed to have likes and dislikes? As long as you are not forcing anyone to stop, it's okay not to like it.

[–]Elephantkick 17ポイント18ポイント  (2子コメント)

And it's ok to voice that opinion and it's ok for other adults to call you stupid for having such a stupid opinion.

[–]Stackhouse_ 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

B-but I just wanted everyone to know I don't like it!

[–]tempaccountnamething [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah, but "forcing people to stop" is what the Twitter mob does nowadays. That's their goal.

They aren't saying "I don't like this," or "this isn't made for me."

They say "this is bad for everyone," and they try to get it changed or banned or blocked.

[–]azz808 18ポイント19ポイント  (5子コメント)

I like the casual line about fans leaving the series due to the rape.

The rape, like (a good amount of) the killing is not glorified. It is a brutal part of a brutal story.

I admit, the rape is a lot more confronting in my opinion, but you can't tell a story about a horrible look at a horrible time of horrible wars without killing and rape.

So yeah, fans leaving due to the rape, I can see how some might be too confronted by that and everyone is free to watch or not watch what they want, but I don't see how you can criticize the writers for including rape.

[–]UsedQtip 70ポイント71ポイント  (16子コメント)

Objectification and sexual objectification are somewhat different things. Soldiers on the show die all the time and no one gives a shit. The unsullied are an army of men who were taken as children and raised to be slave soldiers to be bought and sold, they were given degrading names and had their genitals removed. Men are disposable on this show and I honestly don't give a shit I'm just pointing it out. Or maybe I'm completely wrong idk.

[–]TheIntelligentLion 286ポイント287ポイント  (165子コメント)

I think it's difficult to say "as objectified". Men and women face different standards. They get objectified in different ways, so being able to say who objectively has it worse may not really be possible.

One problem the medium of television (and film) faces is time periods. If you set something even a few decades in the past, that significantly limits the roles women can do, unless you're specifically focusing on a woman who is breaking down barriers. So with a show like Game of Thrones, there's few natural roles for women in that universe that are good roles in terms of storytelling. You get royalty, wives, whores, and servants and that's about it for the most part. Even Brienne (a character I like) is a bit of an insertion just so you can have some variety with a woman knight.

As for the objectification of men, that mostly takes place through violence. On screen, a man's life is worth less than a woman's. Men being killed is just inherently less bad than a woman or child being killed, as far as most shows and movies say. I think society reflects this too. No one really cares about men dying, it's not a tragedy like if a woman dies.

And for the obvious bit about looks, there's some really jacked men out there nowadays in the media, The Rock being one of the biggest (literally) figures. It takes tons of work for a long time to get to that physique, and likely steroids too, at least if the average man wants to get in the ballpark of how The Rock looks. Generally the only standards for looks women are held to is being skinny and having the right genetics, which does not necessarily take a lot of work.

For nudity, I don't think you can directly compare. "Freeing the Bacon" for a woman I think is more like showing vulva. Most frontal nudity for women shows only pubic hair or a bare pubis, the labia aren't actually shown. There's more ways for a woman to be naked than there is for a man. A man being shirtless doesn't even count as being naked. A woman can be topless, can do frontal nudity, and can show vulva.

I don't mean for this to be some men's rights post. The article had barely any detail on how Dormer thought men were objectified, so I'm just bringing up a few points I think are relevant for the discussion that might be applicable.

Television and film are storytelling mediums and can never really accurately reflect real life 100%, so I have no problem with absurdly jacked men and beautiful naked women, like on Spartacus, because normally the goal is entertainment, not changing gender roles in society. But who knows, maybe I internalize that stuff and it's not good for me.

[–]Inorae 20ポイント21ポイント  (1子コメント)

Here I was thinking "how are men objectified like women? It's common for women to be only the romantic interest in films, and they are not given much personality."

That's because I thinking of it sexually. But you've made some good points. Men and Women are both objectified, just in very different ways. Sometimes with more or less severity depending on the circumstances.

[–]MarshLurker 51ポイント52ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think this discussion is leaving out some very important victims of objectification on TV: Dragons.

I haven't followed Game of Thrones but I remember a few years ago when everyone was just talking about how they wanted to see Dragons in the show. Nobody cared about the personality of the Dragons or their role in the show, they just wanted to see them "because they look cool". I can't remember a show where people went on with "I want to see women! When are women coming?"

Many times Dragons don't even get to speak, they just have to growl like savage beasts.

On the topic of nudity, Dragons are always nude. At least men and women have a choice, but Dragons never get to wear any clothes on TV. At most they'll be given armor that doesn't even cover their sexual parts.

It's no surprise Dormer is trying to defend men and is claiming TV objectifies them, she knows the show treats Dragons far worse (or will treat them worse when they're finally featured - I don't watch the show so I don't know if they've been cast yet) so she's trying to deflect our attention elsewhere.

[–]AtlasNoseItch 16ポイント17ポイント  (2子コメント)

The unrealistic standards set on dragons in the industry is absurd.

Just look at who they cast as Smaug. Can you honestly expect all dragons to look like that? It takes a ton of work to be that big, and likely steroids too.

It sets an unfair precedent and just kills the general self esteem of the dragons in this country.

Get your shit together, Hollywood.

[–]Heckledeckle 107ポイント108ポイント  (75子コメント)

Furthermore there are a wider variety of actors in terms of attractiveness. Actresses as a standard have to be good looking to even have a shot at a minor role whereas there are a decent number of average looking if not unattractive men in lead roles. Male actors are judged much more on the quality of their acting skills not their looks. If you use Game of Thrones as an example, nearly all the female cast are above average to gorgeous looking. Even Brienne of Tarth a character who is renowned in the books for her ugliness was cast by a good looking actress.

[–]username_404_ 101ポイント102ポイント  (18子コメント)

Tyrion is supposed to be ugly in the books though. In general most main characters on any show will be played by attractive actors and actresses

[–]notmyfaultyourwrong 64ポイント65ポイント  (11子コメント)

For reals though, in the book his nose is chopped off and he's ugly as fuck. On tv nothing but a cool facial scar.

[–]Shareoff 26ポイント27ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not to mention Daenerys gets her eyebrows and all her hair burnt off at the end of the first book... She's supposed to be pretty anyway, but obviously she looks better with them, so they stayed.

[–]TheIntelligentLion 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's another area where television and film isn't true to life. We look at that stuff primarily for entertainment, and having pretty people up on screen makes that experience more pleasurable.

It might be true to life to have an ugly person as the main character every so often, but if the show doesn't get good ratings because no one likes looking at the lead for an hour, then it'll get canceled.

[–]mycleverusername 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

Arya and Sansa are pretty girls, but they aren't that much above average. Cat is a very pretty middle aged lady, but they could have cast many much more attractive actresses if they chose. Selyse, Lysa, Gilly, Asha (Yara), Osha, Meera, and Brienne are average.

The gorgeous ones are Elia, Daenerys, Cersei, Ygritte, and Margaery (along with the Sand Snakes and some prostitutes for obvious reasons).

Let's not pretend like Jon Snow, Robb, Tyrion, Oberyon, Jaime, Renly, Loras, and Khal Drogo are in any way "average", or were hired on their acting ability first and foremost. They are all great actors, but come on they're pretty gorgeous as well.

That's a pretty good balance.

[–]UsedQtip 52ポイント53ポイント  (36子コメント)

There was some study or survey out there (it could have been bs, I don't have the source) that proved most women think most men are unattractive while most men think most women are attractive. That could be the reason why tons of people think that women on TV are gorgeous and beautiful while the men aren't.

[–]TheIntelligentLion 51ポイント52ポイント  (24子コメント)

I've read that study too, but I think his assessment is still correct. For an actress, the bare minimum is to already be pretty. For an actor, not so much. It's okay to be fat or old as a guy for example; there's a larger physical range of roles available for men. Once an actress hits 40 (or looks 40), the amount of roles available for her drops off a cliff. Which is also part of why the women on TV are gorgeous - they stop casting them once they hit a certain age, but if you're a middle aged man there's still plenty of big roles for you.

[–]TheRealCJ 46ポイント47ポイント  (13子コメント)

Hell, we have some downright ugly actors that are well respected. Steve Buscemi, for instance. The most ugly women I've seen who are dedicated actors are basically just overweight. As in "Lose 50 kilos and you'll be drop-dead gorgeous."

Same with age. There are endless roles for men with grey hair and wrinkles. Meanwhile, once women reach "a certain age." their choices are: Get surgery and pretend you're younger, or Be in the top 1% of the world's greatest female actors.

[–]sTiKyt 16ポイント17ポイント  (5子コメント)

People often use Steve Buscemi as an example of holywood casting an unattractive man, so much so that I looked into it and as it turns out he wasn't bad looking when he started his career. Here's a shot from his first movie for example. A little odd looking for sure. I doubt modern holywood would still cast him today however. Many of the older "ugly" male actors are riding on their fame, I don't think it's fair to say for sure that they would receive work regardless of their looks.

[–]TheRealCJ 22ポイント23ポイント  (2子コメント)

He's still pretty conventionally unattractive in that picture. And you're kinda proving my point. As they get older (and ostensibly uglier), men can continue to easily find work in hollywood, where they play "older male" roles. Women meanwhile often have to move towards legitimate Theatre just to get acting work. Off the top of my head I can name a dozen men who have continued to get work into their 50s and 60s despite their fading looks, while the only two women I can think of who do the same are Meryl Streep and Helen Mirrin.

Really, the point is that unless you're a great actor, you're considered "over" once your looks fade. The problem is, there are so little great roles for women, very few of them get to prove themselves to be legitimately great actors in the short time frame their looks provide, while men have a much greater chance to show off their range.

[–]TheMightyAdzilla 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/

here ya go bud, it was a study done by UK cupid on their user base. Men think most women are attractive, and ''aim high'' by preferring the most attractive ones. Women tend to think of a lot of men as less attractive, but set their bar lower than their tastes in what they will date. I may have mixed up a bit there, I haven't read the article in while, I just remembered it off the top of my head, and dug it up for you guys.

[–]Inorae 26ポイント27ポイント  (6子コメント)

Speaking of looks, it reminds me of a Reddit thread a long time ago in which an actress talked about how female actresses careers are practically gone once they reach a certain age. Instead of Redditors sympathizing towards that, however, they agreed with that motion and were okay with older actresses losing their fame and their film roles once they became about middle aged. Although I tried to stress over and over that actresses are meant for acting and not looks (or at least not focused on look), people downvoted me to hell and pretty much all stated that actresses have to be young and beautiful if they want to be valued and if they deserve careers. As though they have to hand over their careers once they reach a certain age.

It was depressing. I think an up that male actors have is that they have way higher chances of keeping their careers well up into very old age. They don't have to be afraid of being thrown away or ignored because of their age and their diminishing looks due to that aging. I think that's sad, and that Reddit thread still rustles my jimmies whenever I think about it.

[–]nosplet 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

So, men and women are objectified in their own way basically, and finally someone that realizes that not every single form of media is supposed to be 100% reflective of real life!

[–]str0ng_hand 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

Who cares if anyone on tv is objectified, they are jesters sent to entertain me.

[–]DandiBambi 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You mean actors in a time when actors are mostly chosen based on their looks are objectified? Get out of here.

[–]T3canolis 862ポイント863ポイント  (395子コメント)

Are men objectified on television? Most certainly. Are they objectified to the same extent that women are? I really don't think so.

[–]Throwawaymyheart01 726ポイント727ポイント x2 (270子コメント)

The only thing I can compare this to is a discussion I had about Batman artwork. Both the male and female characters are drawn in very unrealistic, unattainable bodies. They are drawn to have their bodies very exposed, lots of muscles and definition and curves and all that. But Batman and Nightwing are drawn in poses that look powerful. They are there to fuck shit up. They are there to be admired as strong characters. Batgirl and Catwoman and Harley Quinn are almost always drawn to be masturbatory fuck toys for the viewer. They are not meant to primarily look powerful or admirable or bad ass. That will always come second to sex, while the male characters will always have admirable traits first and if they happen to be sexy looking then it's a bonus. And you are never going to see official batman art where batman is bent over from behind, cape tossed aside, legs spread, gooch exposed, lips parted, bedroom eyes staring down the viewer, not the way you see official artwork of the female characters (or personal artwork drawn by official artists).

That's where the difference is when the difference occurs.

Edit: as cliche as this is, thank you for the gold, and the upvotes. Sometimes you surprise me reddit. You're good people.

Double edit: this is just one example of how men are objectified vs how women are objectified. I'm not saying sexy is the problem. A female character can be sexy without being objectified. This isn't a black and white issue, there is a lot of nuances that make a difference in how one kind of objectification hurts people while another is there to make people feel better about themselves. It is amusing to see people who disagree with me assume that either I don't actually read comics or that I don't think women should be sexy.

[–]Static-Jak 138ポイント139ポイント  (10子コメント)

To be honest, Dick Grayson (Nightwing) is one of the more "objectified" characters in DC comics right now.

To most comic readers, he's known more for his ass than anything. Really, it's been a thing for a while now. People can literally identify him by his ass.

It's kind of a running joke we have on the comicbooks sub, the amount of Dick puns we've made is off the charts at this point. He even has an ass appreciation tumblr page.

While Selina Kyle is the crime boss of all Gotham.

Not to say you're wrong, just saying it isn't as black and white or as extreme as that these days.

[–]Diggasson 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

Selina Kyle is the crime boss

When did this happened?

[–]Static-Jak 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Batman Endgame. It's a long story but there ends up being a power vacuum in Gotham and Selina steps in to resume order.

EDIT: Sorry, it's Batman Eternal. Got the two names mixed up.

[–]rappo888 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

And Namor and his abs.

[–]jordanb18 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is coming from a straight dude he has been reading DC Comics for 16 years (since I was 5). Dick Grayson is by far my favorite fictional character of all time, but I have never seen one character sexualized more than him. In the past year alone, he has been recognized by two separate characters just because they were staring at and knew his ass.

[–]ExLenne 375ポイント376ポイント  (135子コメント)

That's because both are drawn for the consumption of straight men.

The men drawn in such a way as to impress and be envied, and the women in such a way as to be tantalizing.

The same applies to nudity in film/television a lot of the time.

Female nudity/sex is for pleasure. Male nudity/sex is for humor.

I'm not the target demo for that stuff, but my problem isn't really that it is done. The problem is that there is nothing for me. It's not even that I want to see sexually objectified men so much as it is that any creator who doesn't ever go there is saying very loudly that I never occurred to them at all.

Which, of course, I didn't.

Nobody would be complaining about objectification if it was offering something for everyone. Which is why Natalie is wrong and has missed the point.

[–]GlutenFreeBullshit 150ポイント151ポイント  (28子コメント)

Makes sense. 50 shades and other trashy romances are written for the female demographic, the men are insanely rich and charming or whatever, attaining goals I can't reach. I don't really mind but there needs to be more gender neutral content for all genders to consume without removing content aimed at a particular demographic

Edit:assuming there is a market for such

[–]Throwawaymyheart01 60ポイント61ポイント  (9子コメント)

You're totally right. That's a good example of where a man is objectified if we are looking for examples of that (because of course that happens too, though less frequently). Christian Gray exists only to give pleasure to the female protagonist through sex, love, security, and luxury in totally unrealistic ways. All of his character developments exist as objects to make the female protagonist feel useful and desired.

[–]Theodoros9 74ポイント75ポイント  (4子コメント)

People also try and apply the wrong rules when comparing male characters and female characters. For instance "Are both shown as physically sexy" when its not the way it works. Men's value is in his social capacity, for instance he will be demonstrated as rich, confident and in a suit. That is showing extreme male sexuality in the same way women wearing skimy clothing. Saying "But the men are never nude" misses the point entirely. Men are shown in that 'powerful' stance all of the time.

[–]theo__ 40ポイント41ポイント  (1子コメント)

Seconded!

For some reason the word "objectify" was changed into "viewed as a sex object" which it isn't. It is when someone is viewed as an object of what they can do rather than who they are as a person.

Men are the lead in most media. If you personally aren't a leader then you are a lesser man. If a man doesn't want to fight for his family, friends, or country then he is less of a man. If a man isn't tall enough then he is less of a man. If he doesn't earn enough he is less of a man. If he doesn't drive that car or live here the he is less of a man.

Women are objectified mainly for their looks and ability to produce children, for example "when are you going to hook yourself a hunky man with a mansion to settle down and have kids?"

Men are objectified mainly for their ability to lead, control, and sacrifice, for example "when are you going to settle down, buy a house and get yourself a nice wife and kids?"

We are objectified by our basic gender stereotypes.

Try as people might it seems that nature always wins.

[–]PANTS_ARE_STUPID 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right, and I think we all do ourselves a big disservice by trying to compare each other without taking into account the differences. Like, it's okay to admit that men have it worse in some ways, and women have it worse in other ways. Too often, it feels like everyone wants to treat it like a competition, where if you admit that someone besides yourself is going through a hard time too, you somehow lose credibility.

We're all in it together. It makes way more sense to me to try to help each other out as much as possible, rather than making it even harder by fighting between ourselves.

[–]TheRabidDeer 22ポイント23ポイント  (32子コメント)

I think her point is that even if men are not sexualized as much as women they are still objectified as much as women. You don't have to be nude or tantalizing to be objectified. I mean, I have come to learn that supernatural is popular with a lot of girls simply because they find the lead males attractive.

[–]bumnut 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

And you are never going to see official batman art where batman is bent over from behind, cape tossed aside, legs spread, gooch exposed, lips parted, bedroom eyes staring down the viewer

Give it a couple of hours, I suspect you will.

[–]tigerbait92 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

There was something like this in Marvel. The Hawkeye project or something? You need to look it up, it's hysterical.

[–]WirelessZombie 57ポイント58ポイント  (7子コメント)

you are never going to see official batman art where batman is bent over from behind...

women don't like the equivalent when something is supposed to be titillating for them.

Plenty of male characters are made for women but because women don't care nearly as much about having batman in that position your not going to see it (assuming batmanlike comic targeting women). Its not surprising that while eye candy exists for both sexes if one has a much stronger preference for it its going to be skewed in their favor.

That will always come second to sex

Comments like this always seem to reduce the character to 1 dimension when often times there is a lot more to them. I know that's not on purpose but in pushing a narrative you ignore a lot of what makes her a good character.

I know this can come across as condescending but do you read comics? Harley often has had the tragedy of her character focused on, often through dark humour. While sex could be a permanent factor its (imo) reductionist to just tell me she's just a sexdoll when writers/readers think otherwise. Using her as an example of a sex doll ignores any other possible motivation in using the character. I liked her as a kid because of the her interactions with joker. She was a pretty mysterious character motivation wise and there is something funny/tragic in having her in love with a character who couldn't care less.

But Batman and Nightwing are drawn in poses that look powerful

Nightwing is the most sexualized male character in comics. Not really in a negative way but weird example.

Can't find much on female fantasy that isn't about kinky stuff but did read an article on online dating preferences and while men focus on looks, women focused more on social standing/income/stability. Of course men care about those things and women about looks but I don't think nightwing would even change that much if he was going to be designed purely for the pleasure of female readers. There just isn't a demand for similar treatment of men.

[–]FirstTimeWang 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Based on what I hear from all my female nerdy friends who watch Supernatural, they seem to be much more concerned with wether or not 2 hot dudes will finally cave into their sexual tension than being specifically pandered to themselves.

[–]graffiti81 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Batgirl and Catwoman and Harley Quinn are almost always drawn to be masturbatory fuck toys for the viewer.

Are you insinuating that the powerful muscly men aren't the same for women?

[–]Punchee 31ポイント32ポイント  (10子コメント)

Gonna have to call bullshit with extreme prejudice.

Anyone that actually knows any fucking thing about the Batman universe knows that Barbara Gordon, aka Batgirl, is a genius level hacker and she goes by Oracle now. She is not pursued in the least as a sexual or romantic interest.

Catwoman, aka Selina Kyle, is indeed a sex symbol, but she is also one of the most complicated characters in the Arkham universe with a highly independent story to Batman. She is also there to "fuck shit up" and is in no way a supplementary character to Batman as her world is her own in which she sometimes crosses paths with Batman. Now that's not to say this has been portrayed adequately in a movie featuring Catwoman, but that's because the Halle Barry version was such utter shit that people are scared to touch it now.

Dr. Harleen Quinzel, M.D., aka Harley Quinn, is a psychiatrist who has a thing for a psychopath. She is not meant to look powerful or admirable. She is a crazy, intelligent (see: M.D.), person who is a minor character used to flesh out the Joker more. She's the bad guy equivalent of Robin, except she has an M.D. and he's a circus drop out. You wouldn't call Robin a powerful and imposing character now would you?

This is what I hate about these surface interpretations of shit feminists know nothing about. They inject everything they know about Batman--rich, powerful, intelligent, etc., but then they just take a quick glance at the female characters and see they are wearing form fitting clothing (which everybody is in Superhero canon) and they just assume because the title character is the rich and powerful male that the female characters are not.

And you're not going to find any official modern promotional art featuring any of these characters in the way you described. This and this are promo Catwoman posters for The Dark Knight Rises. This is a poster for Batman v. Superman Dawn of Justice. Which character is in the power stance?

Let's expand this further to a small list of other female characters in the Superhero universes. Jane Foster in Thor has a doctorate and is never portrayed sexualized. Pepper Potts was literally the CEO of Stark Industries in Iron Man and similarly never sexualized. Natalia Romanoff is a world class assassin who takes all of zero shit from anybody. Gamora in Guardians of the Galaxy is a no-bullshit warrior. None of the X-Men women are portrayed as masturbatory fucktoys. Even Mystique, you know.. the naked blue one, is central to the plot in both movies she's heavily featured in and is not relegated to side-show love interest. And the chick doctor in the new Daredevil series on Netflix is anything but a masturbatory fucktoy. And Elektra was a brilliant assassin who could hold her own against Daredevil in the shitty Daredevil and got her own spinoff movie that no women went to see.

The only women that are useless love interest bait in either the DC or Marvel universe are the Spider-Man women and even still Mary Jane is portrayed as striking it out on her own as an independent woman and Gwen Stacy is brilliant and ultimately chooses Oxford over Peter.

Were comic books sexist in the 50s? Yeah sure. But it is impossible to find a character whose sole purpose is to be eye candy in this genre in the modern age.

[–]ficarra1002 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's almost as if men and women enjoy different qualities than each other in the opposite sex.

[–]AllGoodNamesAre7aken 125ポイント126ポイント  (43子コメント)

But you don't understand, it's a WOMAN saying this, therefore it must be true. People in this website love when a member of an oppressed group says that they're not as oppressed as people think. That way they can go on not giving a fuck about racial and sexual discrimination without feeling bad about themselves. It doesn't matter that there are thousands of women saying how sexist the film and television industry is, and how differently women are treated there. This particular woman says that it isn't so. So it's all right!

[–]IMovedYourCheese 69ポイント70ポイント  (9子コメント)

Yup, exactly like how adding "I'm a black person, and I think ..." before your hateful rant makes it completely acceptable to people here.

[–]non_consensual 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

And on the flip side we have "I'm a ________ and therefore speak for all ______."

It's so trendy to dismiss people for wrongthink nowdays, isn't it? My favorite is the "internalized misogyny" meme.

[–]Spacegod87 37ポイント38ポイント  (1子コメント)

Reminds me of those posts, you know the ones... "I'm black and I think white people have it tough these days."

It's all bullshit. It's just there to confirm old biases and perpetuate our 'Everything's fine. Don't wanna know' society.

[–]ncolaros 27ポイント28ポイント  (8子コメント)

Not only that -- she's a woman with money, in an industry with a lot of women. She doesn't need to break any glass ceilings, generally. Natalie Dormer, as much as I love her, is not a representative case. It'd be like asking a Wall Street banker if he thinks there's a problem with money in politics. He might think not, but he's not exactly the best source.

[–]WhoNeedsRealLife 12ポイント13ポイント  (6子コメント)

But it's HER industry that does the objectifying, shouldn't she know better than most women at how TV is produced?

[–]DasHeadCrapHGN 53ポイント54ポイント  (14子コメント)

Why do Americans get so fucking riled up about sex. It's like they're so sexually repressed from childhood they need to find every single excuse to talk about penises, boobs, and vaginas, and even asses. Can't we just be like everyone else and just not give a fuck about fucking. People like to have sex big fucking deal.

[–]Gosset 19ポイント20ポイント  (4子コメント)

Honestly this is a question I'd like to see answered. I'm from the UK and don't get it.

Maybe it's because the only information I have to judge America by is the internet and comments (like on reddit) and UK news, but it does seem to be an insanely touchy subject in the USA.

I mean you get people joking about it, but the moment it's in a serious show for any amount of time it seems to be a massive deal. What is the actual attitude difference to sex and why? I'm so curious.

[–]garbage_account656 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not all of us do. You just don't hear from us because we're busy banging and not givin' a fuck about what uptight people think of where we stick our junk.

[–]heyoh5 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I believe it stems from colonial New England and the puritan values which founded many cities in towns. These were quite strict and conservative social norms/values which cast a negative light on sex and other immoral behaviors. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritans#Restrictions_and_pleasures)

As the country grew the entrenched values of the NorthEast had spread both south and west.

[–]brildenlanch 34ポイント35ポイント  (33子コメント)

Pratt came off as a fucking idiot with those comments. I mean, did he forget his own life? Pudgy TV show somewhat-known to chiseld A-lister? Yeah, just a huge coincidence.

[–]FilmCurb 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

No shit. I absolutely agree that representation is important, this is in terms of movies but when people say only Black Widow is objectified I don't know what to say because look at Thor and many other superheroes DC or Marvel.

[–]Abe_Vigoda 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not American but I watch mostly American media.

Men & women are both objectivized, just in different ways. The US ad industry, fashion industry, make up & cosmetics, etc pretty much condition both genders to comply to their version of beauty, coolness, masculinity, sexiness, etc...

Buy these shoes, buy this purse, buy this car, fit into the image we provide. All this stuff is designed to make people feel insecure and buy superficial junk because it's almost impossible to live up to the standards the media pushes out.

[–]RedPandabator 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

every marvel male superhero has had their shirt off at some point. Also, as an out of shape dude, I wish had the same abs as a top billed actor with a personal trainer. There is nothing wrong with that.

[–]SgtSoundrevolver 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well it's just that they have a lot of girls' boobs and vagina's and stuff, but most times they show a man's wiener, it's because that guy's in a love scene with another guy. Do you think it's because gay wieners are less threatening to women viewers?

  • Leopold "Butters" Stotch

[–]Curious_Swede 30ポイント31ポイント  (9子コメント)

These comments are shit and think they're smart but they're really just saying "you can't objectify men!".

Well recent movie hits like Magic Mike, 50 shades of gray and even Twilight became populare among women because of the male leads body.

No one is willing to say that this is just as disgusting as if men went to a movie just to see the female lead half/fully naked and have sex fantasies about.

We talk about male sexuality. Maturbation and sex but female sexuality is for some reason kept in low profile, not by men but by women themselves. This is why male objectification isn't as clear and visable as female.

Female sexuallity is seen as the good one but pure and innocent while male is seen as bad and vile even if it's more normalized. I guess it's the anology "a great key opens many locks but a bad lock is opened by many keys".

We also have old world values that collide with new world values. Female sexuality is becoming more accepted in the open (thank god) while male sexuality is still seen as vile.

As far as the body image goes for each gender, both are unrealistic and often augmented. If it's not breast implants and such, it's steroids and more implants. Face lifts and diets. Both sexes are under pressure in the media. Everyone gets exposed to unrealistic shit and please don't start with the male "power fantasy". Everyone wants to look like a porn star and be rich like a troll.

[–]Adversary6 52ポイント53ポイント  (32子コメント)

What exactly is the the problem with objectification in fictional characters? Not only is it all fake, but sometimes the story calls for it. Game of Thrones for example tries to capture some medieval realities.

[–]Voltrondemort 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

What? Seriously? Game of Thrones is a fantastic show, but it's like a '70s playboy mag: brilliant writing by fantastic writers surrounded by decorative tits.

I like decorative tits. I like game of thrones. But let's not pretend the parade of non-character hookers and naked castmembers is anything but decorative. The show's core plot and characters would easily be just as good as it is now with only 1/10th the explicit sex and nudity. So much of it is completely extraneous to the plot.

I'm not complaining. I just don't think people should try to pretend it's something that it isn't.

[–]macosxsealion 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just wait until she tries to get a job past 40.

[–]siprus 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

Why thinking somebody is sexy automatically diminishes all of the other qualities of the person. This is pretty strange considering that other compliments don't carry this automatic demeaning property. I.e. when you call somebody smart, it doesn't also imply that they are ugly as fuck

[–]Ibanez7271 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's pretty true. Wanna be seen as a funny guy? Gotta be kinda fat. Otherwise, you must be absolutely ripped.