(cache) BarneyBentがRadicalizing the Romancelessについて記入したコメント

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Radicalizing the Romanceless (slatestarcodex.com)

Lite-brite が 21時間前投稿

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[–]BarneyBent -23ポイント-22ポイント-21ポイント 19時間前 (25子コメント)

The idea that you can compare a minority failing to get paid as much for working as hard to people being decent human beings for the purpose of getting laid is laughable. You work for money. It is LITERALLY a transaction. The whole point is that sex, love, emotional and physical intimacy, is NOT a transaction, and treating it as such is really, really, REALLY damaging. In making this comparison, the author immediately misses the entire point without even realising it.

Feminists criticise "nice guys" because they are treating being nice as a job, and getting sex as the pay check they feel they're entitled to. But that's not how sex works. People have sex for any of a number of reasons, and because a person was nice to them is but a small factor.

Don't be a nice person to get laid. Be a nice person because you ARE a nice person. Accept that physical attractiveness will improve your chances of finding sex/love. Also accept that having an interesting, unique personality will as well. If you have neither of those things, do what you can to improve them. Dressing nicely and working out goes a long way, so does refining your sense of humour, so does confidence.

But you will be at a disadvantage, and that's a shame, but nobody, no matter how attractive, or funny, or whatever, is EVER entitled to sex.

[–]76af 24ポイント25ポイント26ポイント 19時間前 (23子コメント)

[+]BarneyBent スコアが基準値未満のコメント-16ポイント-15ポイント-14ポイント 19時間前 (22子コメント)

Of course I read the article. Are you talking about assuming the complaints come from a sense of entitlement?

I'm saying I'm not assuming. I'm saying it's the only logical explanation. When you work hard, feeling entitled to pay is completely normal and acceptable, because it is a transaction. So his "a poor minority is only a Poor Minority if their complaints about poverty and racism come from a sense of entitlement" analogy is flawed... nobody would criticise somebody's sense that they are entitled to equal pay and opportunity for equal work.

The feminist argument is that sex ISN'T an entitlement... so complaining you don't get as much as you deserve because you did X is a bad thing. It isn't that "some people do it in an entitled way, others don't, and we get to decide which", it's that the very act reveals the transactional nature in which they're approaching sex.

Sex isn't a transaction. You don't put nice actions in and get sex out. "Nice Guys", by complaining that they are nice but women don't want to have sex with them, are essentially treating women as prostitutes, but trying to pay in kindness rather than money. Can you not see how that's offensive?

It's also really fucking toxic for us men, because if you tell men that all they have to do is be nice to someone for them to love you, you are setting them up for endless disappointment. As men concerned about men's issues, as our participation in this subreddit suggests, we should all be doing our best to dismantle this line of thinking.

[–]76af 19ポイント20ポイント21ポイント 19時間前 (8子コメント)

[+]BarneyBent スコアが基準値未満のコメント-19ポイント-18ポイント-17ポイント 18時間前 (7子コメント)

But that's not what they say. They say, "I'm a nice guy, and I'm lonely, this makes me sad, I deserve better". It's the "I deserve better" part that is objectionable, because it equates being nice with deserving sex.

There are plenty of nice people who don't get laid often who aren't "Nice Guys", because they don't think that being nice is enough to justify getting laid. These people are lonely for a host of reasons, some of them their fault, many just shit luck. These people realise that there are plenty of people who are nice and DO get laid a lot, and that being nice is not enough to deserve love or romance.

But when people imply, or outright say, that "women are wrong for not wanting to have sex with me", yeah, that's not OK. That's misogynist, and it deserves to be called out. Could it, in certain circumstances, be handled with a bit more tact? Absolutely. Modern feminism's rather brash approach to dealing with these issues sometimes isn't as effective as more measured approaches might be (but there's a whole host of very good reasons why this approach has been adopted which I won't go into here as we'll be going way off-topic). But it's not WRONG. It's not offensive. It is in no way similar to the minority-trying-to-get-paid analogy. It's a truth bomb, even if it's painful, that a lot of men really need to hear.

[–]76af 15ポイント16ポイント17ポイント 18時間前 (6子コメント)

[+]BarneyBent スコアが基準値未満のコメント-15ポイント-14ポイント-13ポイント 18時間前 (5子コメント)

I know exactly what you're saying, and it's an issue I have with feminism in a variety of areas. Ironic misandry (e.g. "I drink male tears") is a big one. I get it, I understand the context (if you're wondering, it's basically an in-joke poking fun at the history of feminists being called man-haters, a way of reclaiming identity in a sort of postmodern, ironic way), but in the world of social media there's no such thing as an inside joke anymore, and it is in the interests of feminism to do away with it (which is actually already noticeably happening, there were a couple of incidents which made some big feminist influencers say exactly that and it's not nearly as fashionable). There's also the fact that it's probable at least some feminists failed to understand the joke and actually thought it was OK to hate men, but there's only really anecdotal evidence that happened.

But I digress. You may think the Nice Guy shaming isn't an effective way to do this. I disagree. It has certainly been divisive. But it has drawn a massive spotlight to the issue, which is the goal. Perhaps now, moving forward, the discourse may benefit from taking a more nuanced, and most importantly tactful, approach.

But ultimately, and I'm sorry, but I struggle to find sympathy for those who've been shamed for treating sex as a transaction. I mean, is it really that hard to understand why it's not OK? Is that such a high standard to set?

[–]76af 16ポイント17ポイント18ポイント 18時間前 (4子コメント)

[+]BarneyBent スコアが基準値未満のコメント-17ポイント-16ポイント-15ポイント 18時間前 (3子コメント)

But don't you see that you're building a strawman? Feminists aren't criticising the people who post on the internet about how lonely they are. The criticise the people who post about how lonely they are, and then BLAME WOMEN FOR NOT LIKING THEM ENOUGH.

Read any of these blogs that criticise them. It's never "I'm lonely" (though that is terribly unattractive). It's "I'm such a nice guy, but women are only attracted to douchebags", or "I've been burnt by so many sluts who took advantage of my kindness". It isn't that they're lonely. It is that they lack any insight into their own misogyny and entitlement.

And I'm using sex, companionship, etc all more or less interchangeably here. Needing companionship is one thing. Saying you deserve it because you're nice is another. These two aren't mutually exclusive. Most people need companionship in some form or another, but that doesn't make approaching it as a transaction OK. Companionship that isn't freely given isn't companionship, it's a farce at best, and emotional abuse at worst (and as a guy who has been on the receiving end of exactly that, from a woman, I feel I can talk with some authority on that particular issue).

[–]76af 21ポイント22ポイント23ポイント 17時間前 (2子コメント)

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[–]Blabermouthe 14ポイント15ポイント16ポイント 19時間前 (12子コメント)

This is literally in the article.

There seems to be some confusion about this, so let me explain what it means, to everyone, for all time. It does not mean “I am nice in some important cosmic sense, therefore I am entitled to sex with whomever I want.”

It means: “I am a nicer guy than Henry.”

Or to spell it out very carefully, Henry clearly has no trouble with women. He has been married five times and had multiple extra-marital affairs and pre-marital partners, many of whom were well aware of his past domestic violence convictions and knew exactly what they were getting into. Meanwhile, here I was, twenty-five years old, never been on a date in my life, every time I ask someone out I get laughed at, I’m constantly teased and mocked for being a virgin and a nerd whom no one could ever love, starting to develop a serious neurosis about it.

And here I was, tried my best never to be mean to anyone, gave to charity, pursuing a productive career, worked hard to help all of my friends. I didn’t think I deserved to have the prettiest girl in school prostrate herself at my feet. But I did think I deserved to not be doing worse than Henry.

No, I didn’t know Henry at the time. But everyone knows a Henry. Most people know several. Even three years ago, I knew there were Henry-like people – your abusers, your rapists, your bullies – and it wasn’t hard to notice that none of them seemed to be having the crushing loneliness problem I was suffering from.

And, like my patient Dan, I just wanted to know – how is this fair?

And I made the horrible mistake of asking this question out loud, and that was how I learned about social justice.

[+]BarneyBent スコアが基準値未満のコメント-15ポイント-14ポイント-13ポイント 19時間前 (11子コメント)

Yes, and he literally says, "I did think I deserved to not be doing worse than Henry".

He's basically saying, "I'm not saying X, but X". Henry is undoubtedly a horrible person. But he's also, for whatever reason, sexually attractive. To be honest, I suspect he's a masterful emotional manipulator. Physical abuse often goes hand in hand with emotional abuse after all. But Henry's being a dick, or possibly even a psychopath, and getting laid does not make the author's being nice and not getting laid unfair. All it means is he's not making himself attractive, and lamenting that he's "nicer" than Henry solves nothing.

For all that I hate The Red Pill, that's one thing they get right: being nice does not get you laid. They then go the Henry route, emotionally manipulating their partners, and that's a shitty thing to do, but for those who can do it effectively, it is, unfortunately, effective. It's not something to aspire to.

The more ethical and emotionally healthy approach is to continue being a good person, for the sake of being a good person, while focusing on other things which make you an attractive candidate for a partner. Such as, you know, taking care of your appearance, developing an interesting personality (including hobbies), engaging with women as humans first, potential sexual partners second, that sort of thing. And being nice is a part of that, but it is like, bare, bare minimum.

[–]Blabermouthe 22ポイント23ポイント24ポイント 18時間前 (10子コメント)

For all that I hate The Red Pill, that's one thing they get right: being nice does not get you laid.

Sure, I don't disagree, but the issue is your focus on sex and manipulation.

I used to be a "nice guy". I used to dote and fawn over girls I was interested in. I know how sad and pathetic that was. But I also know this: I wasn't doing it to get laid. I literally thought that the way to find a nice girl was to be nice yourself. This is what I heard from multiple people (mostly women), and I took it to heart. When it didn't work, I doubled down.

But I wasn't doing it to get laid. That's the thing that feminist bloggers like Amanda Marcotte could never understand. The "nice guy" in the "friendzone" (as many often find themselves) aren't all just trying to manipulate a woman into fucking them. In my most desperate moment, I was willing to go to any length to no longer be lonely. That included rejecting sex and sexuality. I was so terribly lonely, I (like many men) just wanted to know that someone loved me.

Sure, I was trying to convince some women that I was the right guy to date because I was nice. But I wasn't "manipulating" anyone. I was earnestly trying to show them that I cared, in a futile effort to to find love. Nothing nefarious. And I know many men who were or are in the same boat as I was back when I was a teen.

[–]my_baby_ate_dingos 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント 14時間前 (0子コメント)

[+]BarneyBent スコアが基準値未満のコメント-11ポイント-10ポイント-9ポイント 18時間前 (8子コメント)

Sorry, I think you misunderstood, I wasn't meaning that "Nice Guys" are being manipulative in the way they approach women, I was saying Red Pillers are, "Henry" is, etc.

The issue with you being a "nice guy" is that's all you were. Being nice is a basic requirement (in fact, if you're a talented manipulator it unfortunately isn't even that), it isn't the only requirement. And the issue, from a female perspective, is that you are being nice TO GET a nice girl. Not because you are just naturally nice, but because you thought that's how you get laid, or a relationship.

And there she was thinking you were just being nice because you liked being friends. She got relationship-zoned. How do you think she feels, knowing you were only ever nice because you wanted a relationship with her? I'll tell you how she feels. She feels deceived.

In the end, it comes back to you thinking being nice was enough to deserve a relationship. And it's not. It's a bare minimum, and there are no guarantees, no entitlements. And you can feel sad about that, that's OK! What's not OK is feeling angry, or bitter, or resentful about it, and turning the blame onto the women who, for a variety of reasons, didn't find you attractive. That's what's objectionable.

[–]Blabermouthe 13ポイント14ポイント15ポイント 18時間前 (3子コメント)

In order to avoid running the conversation in circles, I think the problem is this:

Feminists criticise "nice guys" because they are treating being nice as a job, and getting sex as the pay check they feel they're entitled to. But that's not how sex works. People have sex for any of a number of reasons, and because a person was nice to them is but a small factor.

I agree with you that being nice should be the minimum. But you have to understand, it's not that these guys are trying to cash in "nice points" at the "woman store". It's that it's the only thing many of these guys think they have. They're not attractive, and feel like they'll never be attractive in comparison to many of the Adonises out there. They aren't talented musicians or actors. They don't have a ridiculous amount of money. What's left? When we asked this to multiple people, they generally come back with "be yourself!", "just treat women with respect!", "just be nice and you'll find a nice girl". The problem with this advice is that it's often from the female angle, where being passive works, since men are expected to initiate romantic encounters.

That's what I take problem with. Yes, many men in this condition need to wake up and realize that they have to be interesting. But I bristle at people claiming that the "nice guys" are all just trying to fake being nice to get laid or to trick women into being in relationships with them.

And the issue, from a female perspective, is that you are being nice TO GET a nice girl. Not because you are just naturally nice, but because you thought that's how you get laid, or a relationship.

I disagree. When I finally got a girlfriend, I continued to treat her like a god damn goddess. I didn't stop. I was naturally nice. I just happened to be more nice to women to try to be in a relationship with them. I wasn't lying or misrepresenting myself. Neither were many men in my position. It may seem like we were just trying to mislead the targets of our affections, but that's why I hate this meme that paints "nice guys" as assholes. Because honestly, they're not.

They're sad and pathetic, and need to wake up. But they're not assholes.

[+]BarneyBent スコアが基準値未満のコメント-9ポイント-8ポイント-7ポイント 17時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]Blabermouthe 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 17時間前 (1子コメント)

Honestly though, that's a miserable minority of guys who end up in that position. Most don't actually run around calling all women who reject them cunts. The ones who do are a loud minority. Many guys will rant and rave in a moment of anger when they realize they were fools or were being used (the term emotional tampon comes to mind), but the vast majority of men don't end up carrying a grudge against all women. The majority, in my experience, tend to wonder if there's something fundamentally wrong with them, and many have thoughts of suicide.

To use Marcotte again, she makes many broad, generalizing statements about the male experience as a "nice guy", painting them all as narcissistic Elliot Rodger clones. This doesn't help the poor sap that just doesn't get it. It just further alienates them, and makes them more prone to extremist groups. After all, when you feel like everyone hates you, and a group offers to help you and accept you, you're likely to want to join up.

The problem is that regardless what someone like me, who went through this says, many feminists will insist that their narrative is correct. Ironically, they're the ones rejecting the experiences of millions of men because they refuse to "listen and believe".

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[–]mycroftxxx42 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント 18時間前 (3子コメント)

[+]BarneyBent スコアが基準値未満のコメント-12ポイント-11ポイント-10ポイント 17時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]randonobody 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 6時間前 (1子コメント)

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[–]sarcastic_dumbledore 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 8時間前 (0子コメント)

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