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Ardennes Pz IV identity?July 30 2015 at 10:13 AM | Steve Zaloga (Login Steve.Zaloga)
MODERATORS ONLY - Allied WWII
from IP address 69.250.232.138 |
| Anyone have any idea about the identity of this PzKpfw IV in the Ardennes 1944-45 (probably Luxembourg). There is an insignia on the front of the turret skirts that looks like a charging horse and rider.
![[linked image]](/contents/231/217/313.mime16)
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| Author | Reply |
Tom Cockle
(Login atcockle)
MODERATORS ONLY - Axis WWII
162.245.213.24 | Re: Ardennes Pz IV identity? | July 30 2015, 10:26 AM |
Hi Steve,
I believe it is 9.Panzer-Division.
Regards,
Tom
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Marek Jaszczolt
(Login jaszczolt)
Missing-Lynx members
85.222.61.42 | Pz.Rgt. 33 Prinz Eugen to be precise n/t | July 30 2015, 11:48 AM |
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Alan McCoubrey
(Login Alanmccoubrey)
Missing-Lynx members
82.38.135.134 | Re: Pz.Rgt. 33 Prinz Eugen to be precise n/t | July 30 2015, 4:09 PM |
Marek, I for one have never heard of PR 33 being called Prinz Eugen so a bit more information from you would be very welcome. Alan
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Marek Jaszczolt
(Login jaszczolt)
Missing-Lynx members
85.222.61.42 | Re: Pz.Rgt. 33 Prinz Eugen to be precise n/t | July 31 2015, 7:29 AM |
Alan,
"Prinz Eugen" was honorary title given to PR 33 in 1942. The emblem of PR33 was based on Prince Eugene of Savoy monument depicting him riding on a horse. This was all related Austrian origin of PR33, where the Prince still is the national hero.
HTH
Marek
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Timm Haasler
(Login TimmHaasler)
Missing-Lynx members
87.133.101.165 | 3./ Pz.Rgt. 33 | July 30 2015, 12:09 PM |
Hi Steve,
Panzer 332 once belonged to Olt. Rumpf's 3rd Company of I./ Pz.Rgt. 33. Rumpf was killed in action on 12 January 1945 near Foy. The company lost two Panzer IV that same day, so maybe this is one of the two tanks. Panzer 322 was another tank lost in the same area at Recogne. If 332 was not lost in the Foy-Recogne-Noville area and you are right regarding Luxembourg, the tank must have been lost in the area of Heinerscheid.
Hope that helps.
Best regards,
Timm
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Steve Zaloga
(Login Steve.Zaloga)
MODERATORS ONLY - Allied WWII
69.250.232.138 | Thanks! | July 30 2015, 1:12 PM |
Gentlemen:
Many thanks for your help on this
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Jerry Rutman
(Login jrutman53)
Missing-Lynx members
64.121.182.244 | Wow!!! Haasler and Zaloga in the same thread. It | July 30 2015, 3:12 PM |
doesn't get much better.
J
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Stefan De Meyer
(Login Stefandemeyer)
Missing-Lynx members
78.21.244.125 | Re: 3./ Pz.Rgt. 33 | July 30 2015, 3:59 PM |
Hi Timm,
When I discovered that photo way back in 1989 at the photo archive of the National Air and Space Museum in Washington it was together with some 20 other battle of the bulge related wreck photos taken by 9th U.S. Air Force men so as to check / prove the impact of the air force on the destruction of enemy armour.
Those images could be viewed at the archive by means of a photo disc. Something that looked like a vinyl LP of the old days, but coated like a CD.
The captions that went with it said that it was destroyed in the Heinerscheid (Luxemburg) area in Jan 1945.
KR
S
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Timm Haasler
(Login TimmHaasler)
Missing-Lynx members
87.133.101.165 | Heinerscheid | July 30 2015, 4:56 PM |
Hi Stef,
I always considered Heinerscheid an educated guess because the village was loacted on the route back to Germany around 21 / 22 January 1945; i.e. I./ Pz.Rgt. 33 did not see any combat engagements in this area. Therefore I guessed that 332 was either lost in the Foy-Noville-Recogne area between 13 -16 January or the Aldringen - Maldingen area between 23 - 24 January 1945. Under the light of the information that this image is from the 9th US Air Force collection, demonstrating the effect of Allied fighter-bombers, I'm now convinced that Heinerscheid is the right location. From the history of I./ Pz.Rgt. 33: "22 January 1945 - during daylight hours the skies are full of fighter-bombers. 9. Pz.Div. will be withdrawn from the front and is gathering in the area Heinerscheid, Dasburg, Dahnen, etc."
Thanks for sharing this nice piece of information.
Kind regards,
Timm
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Stefan De Meyer
(Login Stefandemeyer)
Missing-Lynx members
78.21.244.125 | Re: Heinerscheid | July 30 2015, 4:59 PM |
Hi Timm,
Welcome!
Another small piece of the jig-saw cleared up.
KR
S
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Steve Zaloga
(Login Steve.Zaloga)
MODERATORS ONLY - Allied WWII
69.250.232.138 | USAAF pics | July 30 2015, 5:40 PM |
The WWII USAAF photo collection has wandered a bit over the years. It was originally over at the Fern St. depository in Crystal City when Dana Bell was there. The USAF transferred it to NASM where they put it on the old style large CDs. The NASM ownership caused a lot of trouble as the Smithsonian tried collecting reproduction fees for government-originated photos, which runs against the usual public domain rules. NARA insisted that they were the proper repository, and so they were eventually transferred to College Park. They are now in RG 342-FH at NARA II. (Some of the staff at NARA II say that the "FH" means "Finally Here".
In the event, the print I posted here isn't from that collection, it's from another collection over at Library of Congress where the captions are a bit dodgy.
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Stefan De Meyer
(Login Stefandemeyer)
Missing-Lynx members
78.21.244.125 | Re: USAAF pics | July 30 2015, 7:28 PM |
Tell me about the NASM fees. I ordered ca 100 photos and paid 25 dollar each for 20x25cm prints in 1989!!!
I felt I was being robbed, but that's what can happen when you are totally captured by some military subjects and want to research things.
Count on top of that the flight and the hotel costs and those photos were more expensive than gold. 
S
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Mark E. Butler
(Login grenadier3)
Missing-Lynx members
98.215.136.98 | Finally see the mounted knight... | July 30 2015, 4:21 PM |
...Bill Auerbach mentioned the Knight insignia back in the day but I could never make it out; great photo. -MB
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Stirling Lowery
(Login StirlingLowery)
Missing-Lynx members
2.26.75.121 | Panzer Regiment Prinz Eugen | July 30 2015, 4:31 PM |
Nice photo Steve,
The insignia is a darker coloured variant of the insignia displayed on photos a few threads down in Erik Reist`s usual "Friday" ( keep `em coming Erik ! ) post.
![[linked image]](/contents/231/217/316.mime16) ![[linked image]](/contents/231/217/317.mime16)
| This message has been edited by StirlingLowery from IP address 2.26.75.121 on Jul 30, 2015 4:33 PM |
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Bruce Lee
(Login gewehr42)
Missing-Lynx members
23.30.211.181 | Re: Panzer Regiment Prinz Eugen | July 30 2015, 5:48 PM |
Insignia isn't even close to being the same. Same concept but far from the same
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Mark E. Butler
(Login grenadier3)
Missing-Lynx members
98.215.136.98 | Artistic License? n/t | July 30 2015, 6:44 PM |
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Trevor Ware
(Login TrevorW88)
Missing-Lynx members
124.186.234.51 | Not the same unit | July 30 2015, 11:16 PM |
Hi,
The album that the pictures were from, were of PzRgt 21 of the 20th Panzer Division. They only fought on the Eastern front. Similar concept but probably of another Teutonic Knight of legend.
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Akira Takiguchi
(Login history.jp)
Missing-Lynx members
219.121.0.158 | Panzer-Abteilung 21 | August 1 2015, 6:50 AM |
Trevor is correct; it is not from PR33 but from PA21.
Moreover, I believe that this Panzer-Abteilung 21 is a very temporary marking used for a propangada purpose. The tanks also (in addition to Knight marking) received names like "Rommel" and "Guderian" and they were photographed and published in newspapers.
Details of PR33 insignia is like this (this is from 1943):
![[linked image]](/contents/231/217/318.mime4)
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Anonymous
(Login 8wheels-good)
Missing-Lynx members
86.142.64.78 | Re: Panzer-Abteilung 21 | August 1 2015, 11:08 AM |
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