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Naval Station, San Diego: Late 1940's mothball fleet [805x506] (quarterdeck.org)

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[–]thumper1620[S] 19ポイント20ポイント  (23子コメント)

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Most people seem to agree that it was a combination of decent, solid ships, and numbers. Most historians seem to agree that it was bang-for-your-buck taken to the degree that wins world wars. But in my opinion, it was a numbers game. We had the ability to fill whatever need we were lacking in when the fleet put out to fight the war. We had virtually unlimited resources, and all the time in the world to put into R&D with almost no risk of getting our shipyards bombed. Luxuries our adversaries didn't have, which were some of the biggest reasons they couldn't win. The Japanese didn't have the fuel and raw materials to build a military that could stay matched with ours, and they never put their biggest toys in where they could do serious damage. They underestimated the importance of our battles until it was too late for them. The Germans were fighting a two-front war and were simply outnumbered. They had the technology that could have decimated us, but never got it to fruition. Or it was simply too advanced for its time, like the Bismarck and Tirpitz. They didn't have the luxury of being able to let their ships sink, and have 5 newer ships ready to take their place by the time the loss would possibly have an effect.

[–]faaaks 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

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The Germans over engineered everything. Me 262s were the best planes in the air, there were just too few of them. For every 262 fielded there were dozens of P-51s. Same thing with the Tigers (and Panzers). The German tanks were expensive, took a long time to manufacture, and were prone to mechanical failure but were great tanks. Who do you think is going to win 1 Tiger or 20 Sherman tanks? If the Axis switched production to easier to produce tanks, the allies would have drowned them in numbers (larger economies).

From a logistics standpoint, the axis was doomed even though it had some of the best technology in the world at that time (no danger of getting "decimated").

[–]skipperbobCV-13 USS Franklin 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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The Bismark and Tirpitz were not advanced for their time...just very strong and well built...their separate secondary armament for surface and air were far behind the British and American dual purpose guns and there weren't that many advances over other battleships of the era...again, just well built and well armored.

[–]TanyIshsar 5ポイント6ポイント  (20子コメント)

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I'm not at all familiar with the Kriegsmarine, can you explain how the Bismarck and Tirpitz were 'too advanced' for their time, or even 'advanced' at all?

[–]Slicker1138 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

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I'm thinking (and again it's just a guess) that he may be saying that they were too advanced in that they were complicated machines and not really set for mass production (or as mass producable as battleships can be) much like their tanks. They were VERY sturdy designs however they were VERY labor intensive and over complicated.

[–]faaaks 9ポイント10ポイント  (12子コメント)

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The Axis had a tendency to over engineer their equipment. The German Tiger tank, was one of the most formidable tanks (very large gun, thick armor) on the battlefield but it was costly to build, had maintenance issues and took a long time to manufacture. The American Sherman was reliable and incredibly simple to manufacture. On a 1 to 1 basis (assuming equal tactical positioning), the Sherman would have lost to the Tiger, but war isn't like that. The allies could field dozens of Shermans for every Tiger the Axis had field. Same thing with Axis ships.

[–]tdre666 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Sherg rush gets em everytime.

[–]TanyIshsar 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

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So essentially, the Axis failed to comprehend the notion of opportunity cost?

[–]BigRedS 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

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They seemed to spend most of the war stuck to the belief that a smaller number of superior weapons would outmatch a larger number of inferior ones. The USSR believed the exact opposite.

[–]BigRedS 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Importantly, the bit they were wrong on wasn't necessarily that the small number of superior weapons would win, but that they could make those superior weapons. They made very theoretically superior and highly-engineered systems, but they generally proved quite unreliable.

In contrast, it's hard to get simple wrong.

[–]bscooter26 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

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IIRC, Sherman's couldn't kill a Tiger with a straight on shotX, they had to hit it from the side to knock one out

[–]Whiteyak5 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

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Good post but I have to disagree on some points. The Tiger was not the Axis best tank. That belongs to the Panther. Much faster, better range, good armor, and an amazing gun. Which is why Germany made it their "main battle tank" of the time you could say. Now, by the end of the war the allies had started to field superior tanks to the axis. Russia had the JS-3 or is it IS3? Either way, those were out classing the Germans. Finally the US had the Tiger killing Pershing with its 90mm gun. I believe it had one battle against a Tiger and it knocked it out. But I am not 100% sure on that.

[–]BigRedS 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

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Confusingly, it's the IS-3 where the 'IS' is for 'Josef Stalin'.

[–]Whiteyak5 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Ok cool. When I saw I put JS-3 it just didn't look right lol.

[–]faaaks 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

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The Tiger was not the Axis best tank.

I agree, mainly because the Tigers were over-engineered more than the Panthers. I used the Tiger because it is even more of an example of over-engineering than the Panther.

Russia had the JS-3 or is it IS3?

IS series of tanks, only the IS2 saw action in WWII in Berlin.

[–]Whiteyak5 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Alright, solid example of over engineered then lol. Although Panthers had over engineered road wheels, leading too bad reliability.

[–]throne_of_flies -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

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The IS-3 was rolled out in '45 and didn't see much action; only a few hundred were built during the war.

Not that you said this, but it's a big myth that Germany had the best tanks, notwithstanding the numbers put into action. By Summer '42, the Soviets had better tanks and were building more of them. More IS-2s were built and put into action than Tigers (3,800 vs about 2,000), they were available early enough to put in action in numbers, and I would rather be in an IS-2 thank-you-very-much.

The Tiger was so venerated because the Germans had better tank commanders (not overall; they lost elite commanders in their medium tanks rather early, the talent was almost solely in the heavies) and were fighting a mostly defensive war by the time that heavy tanks came in numbers on the battlefield. The Panthers made it out in decent numbers (4k or so) and were more versatile, but by late 43/44 the Soviets built 4 medium/heavy tanks for every German tank that could compete, and they concentrated all of them against one foe, while Germany was occupied on two fronts.

As for competing with the aforementioned Panthers and Tigers, the Soviets simply slapped on an 85mm gun to their t-34s; front armor penetration was possible with this gun, and the Soviets had over 20k of them in service by war's end.

[–]Whiteyak5 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

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I feel like this is directed more towards who I commented on haha. But solid info.

[–]thumper1620[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

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How I've read it in a few different books, mind you this was some time ago, the fire-control system on the Bismarck couldn't compensate for the slow speed the obsolete, WW1 era Fairey Swordfish torpedo planes. The computers were built to defend against modern, faster anti-ship aircraft. I suppose I shouldn't have included Tirpitz in that statement, because her destruction was different, I only did because the two were sister ships.

[–]TanyIshsar 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

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As a programmer, that is, without a doubt, the most cliche systems flaw ever. I am impressed it made it into production.

[–]thumper1620[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Nazi arrogance! And see where it got them?

[–]IAmAHat_AMAA 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

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To be fair, it was the early days of programming

[–]autowikibot 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Konrad Zuse:

Konrad Zuse (German: [ˈkɔnʁat ˈtsuːzə]; 22 June 1910 – 18 December 1995) was a German civil engineer, inventor and computer pioneer. His greatest achievement was the world's first functional program-controlled Turing-complete computer, the Z3, which became operational in May 1941. Thanks to this machine and its predecessors, Zuse is often regarded as the inventor of the computer.

Zuse was also noted for the S2 computing machine, considered the first process-controlled computer. He founded one of the earliest computer businesses in 1941, producing the Z4, which became the world's first commercial computer. From 1943 to 1945 he designed the first high-level programming language, Plankalkül. In 1969, Zuse suggested the concept of a computation-based universe in his book Rechnender Raum (Calculating Space).

Much of his early work was financed by his family and commerce, but after 1939 he was given resources by the Nazi German government. Due to World War II, Zuse's work went largely unnoticed in the United Kingdom and the United States. Possibly his first documented influence on a US company was IBM's option on his patents in 1946.

Image i

Interesting: Konrad Zuse Medal | Z3 (computer) | Konrad Zuse Scholarship Programme 2009 | Z1 (computer)

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[–]TheJBW 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

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This is a very good resource that actually makes the surprising argument that the Iowa class was out and out the best all around battleship in wwii