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Patrick Byrne is a sell out.... (self.Bitcoin)

lyth0s が 投稿

Now that we know that his T0 project is built on top of a private centralized ledger with PeerNova I think it's time to severe ties with him. However, I'm sure that he will continue to use his Bitcoin hashtags and saying his new platform is "ledger agnostic" to try to get the true crypto enthusiastic Bitcoin-ers to rally behind him.

What he will come to find out in the near future is that any centralized ledger is always mutable whether it be by the companies' specific intent, a rogue employee or a hacker.

I'd recommend no longer giving up your bitcoins to his company and start ignoring all of his pro-bitcoin statements while he secretly works on his own private databases to maintain the status quo with the only difference being that he will gain control of the equities/stock markets rather than large banks or brokers.

At this time I think the best alternatives will be Nasdaq using the Open Asset Protocol (colored coins) on top of the Bitcoin network and/or counterparty. I look forward to seeing more news from them as time goes on.

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[–]ringsignature 20ポイント21ポイント  (3子コメント)

wtf is peernova?

[–]penny793 68ポイント69ポイント  (9子コメント)

So let me get this straight... because of this new initiative that you don't agree with in terms of implementation, you want me to ignore the fact that he is a pioneer in the bitcoin space by having a half billion dollar ecommerce business accept bitcoin and also being a vocal advocate of the technology?

So what have YOU done for bitcoin recently besides posting about it on reddit?

[–]Beetle559 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well said.

Full props for Byrne.

[–]nanoakron 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

'...but you rape one kid, and suddenly everybody hates you!'

That's what's going on here.

[–]toomim 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

You're saying that "introducing a bitcoin competitor" is the same thing as "raping a kid"?

If you can't tell those things apart, remind me to keep you away from my children.

[–]nanoakron 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

It was the sentiment behind the statement and the fact that it's an old joke.

Guy says to a tourist 'I built the bridge over there, but to they call me Jorj the bridge builder? No. I built the church over there but am I Jorj the church builder? No. I fought I. The army and saved us from invasion but do they call me Jorj the patriot? No.

You rape one kid however...'

The idea is that no matter how much good somebody does for a community, their standing can be totally destroyed by one bad act.

If you can't parse sentences properly or have any cultural references then I can't help you.

[–]zoopz 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well I personally have never heard of the saying, so it's easy to see how someone would understand it differently. It's not unusual on an international platform for people to have different cultural backgrounds.

[–]neosatus 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You need to learn what a comparison is, sadly.

[–]CleaverUK 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

upvoting this to the moon, asif a financial institution would trust their important stuff on bitcoin version 0.11

cryptocurrency is taking off slowly and bitcoin is at the front

[–]pooping1000xforever -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed. OP is a blind fanatic publicly attacking Bryne for building something that isn't in line with OP's hope to get rich quick.

[–]paleh0rse 15ポイント16ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'll just repost my other response here...

Actually, t0 appears to have developed two distinct solutions (that work together).

The first is simply a system (or engine) that uses the actual Bitcoin blockchain to facilitate trading and settlement, thus potentially replacing the current systems used by the likes of NASDAQ and NYSE.

The second solution -- which appears to be the one they've partnered with PeerNova to develop -- is for stock loaning, specifically; thus potentially replacing the traditional stock loan facilitators (banks).

It looks like he's attempting to merge both "types" of blockchains -- both public and "permissioned" -- into one cohesive system.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow (eventually) peg the second solution (the permissioned chain) to the Bitcoin blockchain itself using sidechains, or something similar. (Or using something even simpler, like OP_RETURN). This seems like a great use for t0's new "asset addresses."

tl;dr - T0 has created two distinct, but related, solutions -- one that uses public ledgers (ie. Bitcoin), and one that attempts to use private (or "permissioned") ledgers in partnership with PeerNova. The first is for straight trading and settlement, while the second is for stock loaning, specifically (ie. lending and borrowing stocks to short sell them).

[–]IGETSHIVERSWHENIP 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

/u/changetip 3000 bits

[–]Rawlsdeep 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you! What they have done is actually really cool. I can't wait to trade securities like we do bitcoin today (buy, sell, buy, sell) with no restriction on settlement time.

[–]njc2b5 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

https://www.coinprism.info/asset/AchDKMsBeAfAQPBPzjHV8bB9WbBYJ1oEcp

T0 used the Open Assets Protocol before for Overstock Bond. Can we not jump to conclusions for a second. Press is not always accurate.

[–]waxwing 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Here's what I saw on the PeerNova website:

Inspired by blockchain, our patent-pending technology enables use of immutable ledgers and databases in real-time for multi-asset and multi-party transactions. Traditional applications of blockchains involve de-centralized ledgers, distributed consensus protocols, and anonymous users. PeerNova’s scalable solution is built for commercial usage by enabling the same type of data integrity and immutability for financial ledgers without needing to de-centralize the ledger or allowing anonymous users to participate.

"Inspired" by "blockchain" (no definite article), our patent-pending technology ....

"Immutable ledgers" ... to be honest, I call bullshit. If it's entirely privately run, how is it immutable again? I don't know about rogue employees or hackers, they can be smarter than that, but if it's centralized then there will be a central point of failure. Do they just promise not to change it?

I think your title is a bit emotive but I actually struggle to find a disagreement ... in early 2014 he was singing Bitcoin's praises but when the price fell he switched to "Blockchain" (few on here seemed to notice, but he gave a couple of interviews/speeches around the turn of the year that made this clear.

[–]Beetle559 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh please. He's trying to pioneer a new technology, not undermine Bitcoin or blockchains.

[–]throckmortonsign 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think it's very likely to do with what the SEC and other regulatory bodies will and won't approve. They will not be ok with a completely decentralized system, at least not initially. It's not in their knowledge-base, it's too foreign. The fact that t0 has a Bitcoin block explorer built in tells me they are thinking long as well.

It's hard to think why this would make any sense to do it this way, but I think it's because banks are SO far behind what cryptography (not just "blockchains") can offer. All it takes is a look at the Fedwire system (or any other system) to realize how bad things actually are.

[–]Not_Pictured 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Clearly this was the fastest way to appease both regulators and uninformed investors.

Calling a business man a sell out is absurd on its face. He will move to bitcoin if/when it's advantageous.

Personally I'm a bit offended he pretended this was related to bitcoin. It feels like a bait and switch.

Edit: Now I'm seeing that this DOES use bitcoin blockchain... AND the permissioned ledger together. So not a bait and switch.

[–]MrFalken 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

But the Coinprism assets (Colored Coins) work in their T0 explorer, example:

http://t0.com/asset/ATcCsvax7qQhdhcE3MASwDJVSgjKVf4EDZ

[–]bubbasparse 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Bitcoin addresses are searchable on t0.com

[–]johnnyhammer 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Oh fuck off, you greedy bastard.

[–]greatwolf 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is this reply to the OP or to Patrick Byrne?

[–]jmw74 7ポイント8ポイント  (14子コメント)

What he will come to find out in the near future is that any centralized ledger is always mutable whether it be by the companies' specific intent, a rogue employee or a hacker.

Technically true, but misses the point.

Let's say you take your centralized ledger, make it downloadable. Your clients can download the latest state at any time. You also sign the ledger and the hash of the previous ledger, every time you update it. You make those signatures available as part of the download.

Now you are rather limited in the kinds of cheating you can accomplish. Really all you can do is completely rewrite the ledger history from scratch. However, the fact that your clients have a completely separate history signed by you, is pretty damning evidence that you are cheating. This is probably good enough for Patrick Byrne's purposes.

Proof of work blockchains are for censorship resistance, which is not what regulated stock markets need.

[–]Not_Pictured 5ポイント6ポイント  (10子コメント)

Proof of work blockchains are for censorship resistance, which is not what regulated stock markets need.

That's fine and all, but it's being advertised as "immutable", which is a lie.

[–]BlockchainOfFools 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

When you consider the context of cost tradeoffs it is designed to operate within, it is "immutable enough." Certainly, it's way better than what is already being used.

Now will some people confuse this bitcoin-like tool with Bitcoin itself? Yeah probably. Will this somehow hurt Bitcoin? I don't think that is a forgone conclusion. It might even expose it more favorably to a wider audience. It's too early to tell, and totally unreasonable to jump down this guy's throat less than 24 hours into this announcement.

[–]Not_Pictured 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

When you consider the context of cost tradeoffs it is designed to operate within, it is "immutable enough." Certainly, it's way better than what is already being used.

And we are selling a truly immutable ledger to the world. They aren't.

If they said "hard to change" or "good enough" I wouldn't take issue.

It's too early to tell, and totally unreasonable to jump down this guy's throat less than 24 hours into this announcement.

I've done no such thing. I'm simply acting as a middle man between the dictionary and Reddit. And it's immutable.

[–]BlockchainOfFools 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've done no such thing. I'm simply acting as a middle man between the dictionary and Reddit. And it's immutable.

I understand, and I agree that he, like so many VC-funded blockchain projects, is trying to get a gravitational assist from Bitcoin, and so they all play fast and loose with terms like decentralized, database, blockchain, uncensorable, immutable.

I don't like it, because technically it is inaccurate and comes across as being lazy at best, and deceptive at worst, but you won't get very far raising money if every pitch starts off with a preamble debate over exactly where, for example, bitcoin ends and blockchain begins. The guy who chisels his pitch into a message that will resonate with casually-informed investors will get the money, and you won't.

It sucks, but that is life in the big city. At some point you have to concede to pragmatism in such things, or get sidelined by those who do.

[–]jmw74 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

No it isn't.

Did you know you can mutate your local copy of the blockchain? It's on a writable disk! Does that make it any less immutable in the sense that it becomes invalid to everyone else the moment you mess with it?

This is exactly what happens with peernova's ledger. Having two different states based on the same previous hash makes the whole thing invalid.

They can still write to it, sure, but that is irrelevant.

[–]Not_Pictured 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

A centralized ledger is no different than bitcoin, but with one entity controlling 100% of the hashing power.

[–]jmw74 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Right, which allows them to censor but not arbitrarily change ownership.

The inability to make arbitrary changes is what makes this superior to all stock markets and banks on the planet today :) It's not censorship resistant, but it really doesn't need to be. All these constructs are completely based on threats of violence if the participants cheat. That isn't about to change.

[–]Not_Pictured 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

There is nothing this achieves that the NYSE couldn't achieve by simply publishing their ledger regularly. How does that make it immutable?

They can re-mine any blocks they want. They can only 'get caught' if they regularly publish it and then try to change it... but again that's no different than if any clearing house publicly published their ledgers.

[–]jmw74 -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

There is nothing this achieves that the NYSE couldn't achieve by simply publishing their ledger regularly.

Just the plain data wouldn't do it, it has to be signed and hashed.

If it wasn't how would anyone know which copy was later than another, or if it was altered by someone else?

[–]Not_Pictured 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just the plain data wouldn't do it, it has to be signed and hashed.

Signing and hashing has been around for decades before bitcoin or blockchains. The NYSE could have been signing and hashing and publishing since the 90's.

[–]jmw74 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know. It's a total abuse of the term "blockchain", but the technology is appropriate for the problem they're trying to solve.

Yes, they could have solved this 20 years ago. And the only reason banks are solving it now is because bitcoin is real competition that they cannot bribe regulators to shut down.

[–]hugolp 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Let's say you take your centralized ledger, make it downloadable. Your clients can download the latest state at any time. You also sign the ledger and the hash of the previous ledger, every time you update it. You make those signatures available as part of the download.

How is this different from any other merkel tree database? I feel that calling any merkel tree database a blockchain is misleading. A blockchain as understood in Bitcoin space is a decentralized merkel tree database.

Otherwise, if we accept the "extended" definition, how is a blockchain really an innovation?

[–]jmw74 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I totally agree, that's all it is - a merkle tree database with signatures.

It's a total abuse of the term "blockchain". It originally (AFAIK) referred to a distributed consensus data structure. That is NOT what peernova or all these banks are talking about.

[–]jmw74 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

By the way I didn't even look to see what peernova does until now, but if you look at their website it's exactly what I just described.

http://peernova.com/technology-securities-exchange/

[–]brainseating 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

What? A business person rallied an entire community behind him, only to capitalize on it and leave them in the dust? How could this happen?

xD

[–]zluckdog 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

oh, Boo hoo hoo

It's his platform, he can do what he wants.

[–]PixelPhobiac 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well, let's call it a start.

[–]michaelhorton 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

So is a bitlicense. That doesn't mean we should support it.

[–]street_fight4r 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

whether it be by the companies' specific intent, a rogue employee or a hacker

Or government thugs

[–]spottedmarley 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe he thought it was called BeerNova. Honest mistake.

[–]GrounBEEFtaxi 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't worry, XXX workers around the globe are using bitcoin. It's already hittin the streets hard and most nerds on here are unaware of what's really happening. Patrick Byrne? Bitcoin cares not. Bitcoin is moving through the alleys faster than anyone knows right now. Backpage has re ignited the flames.

[–]Chakra_Scientist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Unfortunately, I agree :/

[–]SundoshiNakatoto 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah it's a bit ridiculous

[–]nobodybelievesyou -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd recommend no longer giving up your bitcoins to his company

Based on their released numbers, they've been doing less than seven transactions a day in the US with another four a week globally, so I don't think you really need to worry about this.

[–]Piper67 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed. Someone please hack the bejesus out of this blockchain mongrel please.

[–]mastil12345668 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

cry baby and a sore looser, angry because he doesnt pump your interest.