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[–]DalewynUnited Kingdoms of Britannia 34ポイント35ポイント  (63子コメント)

The way I see it:

  • Islam needs to get the fuck over the Sunni/Shia schism. Like holy shit, that's got to be one of the most fuck-retarded nonsensical reasons in the world ever to kill people over.

  • Islam needs to remember the days (oddly enough, the days depicted in CK2) when they tolerated other religions and cultures. Sure, they made non-muslims pay a special tax, but that's far more reasonable than fanatical jihads, acts of terrorism, and destroying priceless cultural and historical artifacts.

And while this isn't entirely related to ISIS:

  • Israel and anyone relevant need to realize that Jerusalem and the holy land aren't strictly their turf, anyone who's good and honest should be able to visit and possibly even stay there. I can't fathom the stupidity of the sheer amount of blood and hate that's been spilled over just one god damn piece of land since time immemorial.

TL;DR: Religious wars suck.

EDIT: Some people seem to be misunderstanding me about my quip regarding Jerusalem. I said "Israel and anyone relevant", I only mentioned Israel specifically out of that because they're currently the de facto country holding those lands, otherwise I directed that quip at everyone relevant which includes Israel/Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and however many other religions call Jerusalem one of their holy sites. I apologise if that was confusing.

[–]MubarakMMutairiإمارة صقلية 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

Islam needs to get the fuck over the Sunni/Shia schism.

Tell that to the Saudi Arabia and Iran. Or the Ottomans and Safavids.

Those four fuckers are the reason why Sunni/Shia relations have gone to hell. Also it's not a Schism.

[–]TheDarkLordOfViacom 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

The Abbasids and Ummayyads didn't like the Alids much. This split has developed into more then just a leadership dispute.

[–]MubarakMMutairiإمارة صقلية 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Abbasids and Ummayyads didn't like the Alids much.

The Abbasids and Umayyads didn't like anyone that challenged their authorities regardless of sect.

This split has developed into more then just a leadership dispute.

True, but I'd argue that such a development occurred much later during the Ottoman-Safavid conflicts where Shiism was dominated by 12'vers and religious identities were fixed. Also the confessionalization of Iran as being 12ver Shia which was relatively new thing to happen in the region.

Not even the Fatimids were that successful in confessionalization Egypt.

[–]DiscuxJust Romin' Around 41ポイント42ポイント  (33子コメント)

It's very important to keep in mind that extremist groups are in no way, shape or form representative of the views of mainstream Islam. Even Saudi Arabia's form of Islam is a highly conservative interpretation of fundamental Sunni doctrine. For the most part, Islamic teaching in the modern era has embraced its fundamental roots as one embracing spirituality and tolerance in peaceful ways, much as how the largest Christian denominations have worked to reform bureaucratic issues and resolve doctrinal disputes. To judge Islam by Daesh (the more correct name for ISIS, as "ISIS" is merely a crude anglicization of organization's name) is akin to judging the world's 2.4 billion Christians by the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church.

On the topic of Israel, I agree that something must be done. Secular authorities must respect the religious customs of pilgrims entering the city (as it is the holy site for all 3 Abrahamic faiths. Much conflict could have been avoided if Jewish settlers did not overstep their bounds and violate the agreed upon divisions of the Southern Levant between Arab and Jewish communities as laid forth within the British Mandate of Palestine.

[–]talltaleteller 14ポイント15ポイント  (9子コメント)

To judge Islam by Daesh is akin to judging the world's 2.4 billion Christians by the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church.

Nah, this is a false parallel. Unfortunately the numbers are in no way near equivocal for you to draw such an example. I know what you're trying to say; that the core of Islam is peaceful and that everyone is misinterpreting it (for the record, I disagree with this notion and think it comes from a lack of knowledge of the Hadith and an overreliance on cherry-picked Surahs from the Qur'an). But if you want to claim that, you need a better argument than this. Because the people who do what Daa'ish do are actually observed in every Muslim community in the world, they hold political as well as religious power in most places in the Muslim world (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan etc) and the frequency of what-they-do-that we would consider to be morally heinous is much higher than you might perhaps like to admit.

[–]radiodialdeathNormandy 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

That, and by Westboro's own numbers they have exactly 40 members. (wiki)

[–]DiscuxJust Romin' Around 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

Morally heinous do occur across the globe, and it is of particularly great shame that such acts are sanctioned, even promoted by nation-states such as Saudi Arabia and Iran. However, it is important to make the distinction between moral failures as a result of cultural condition and moral failures because of inherent religious predisposition for violence.

I agree that oftentimes people tend to pick the "peace" surahs when describing the faith whilst completely glossing over the "sword" surahs that sanction holy war. Both must be understood to gain a greater comprehension of the Islamic faith. However, the Bible itself is often subject to the same cherry-picking (especially in the violence filled Old Testament) where people quote verses from Deuteronomy when arguing against tattoos but totally ignore the fact that slavery was permitted and the fact that the ancient Israelites committed a complete ethnic genocide of the indigenous Canaanites.

The moral failures you have described are more or less perpetrated by the governments of these nations, or at least by a ruling class of some sort. In these situations, moral failures arise not out of the inherently violent nature of the religion (although many facets of Islam promote retaliatory violence and the faith itself was founded amid the political realities of a war-torn peninsula populated by constantly warring tribes) but from the despotic tendencies spawned by the harsh realities of post-imperial rule. These nations have long been exploited by predominantly Christian European nations and, as such, cling on to anything and everything that would distance themselves from their subjugated past and their culturally-domineering overlords.

Religion is the starkest and most tangible identity that these nations can cling on, and the local despots who have risen in the power vacuum following decolonization have merely used religion as an excuse to keep their populations in check. Moral failures would have occurred regardless of religious affiliation (hence why political instability still reigns in many parts of Latin America and Africa, regardless of local faith). If the population had been any other religion but Islam (as was the case in the Belgian Congo and much of south-central Africa), other excuses would have been made to do morally heinous acts. The Burundi and Rwanda genocides saw the extermination of the Tutsi people by the Hutu- a demographic group of largely the same religious affiliation.

Proportions of numerical size are of little concern to this analogy. What matters is that both Westboro and Daesh are subgroups within their respective religions that have organized themselves and are well known for the extremist interpretations of their core religious texts.

Morally heinous people will always find a reason to justify their morally heinous deeds- it is only a true pity that many of the nations that suffer beneath unjust despotism share one confession of Islam or another. But make no mistake- placed in the exact same conditions, the same burdens of imperialism, colonialism, and economic exploitation, the countries you have mentioned (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan) would have been very similar to what they are now even if they were Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, or any other religion. Even religions of peace, such as the peace professed in some portions of the Abrahamic faiths and common in Axial Age religions, can be led to violence by morally heinous people in defiance of the tenets of their faith; the deplorable case of Buddhist extremists and the expulsion of the Rohingya in Indochina attests to this.

EDIT: In the interests of full disclosure and in avoidance of conflicts of interest, I'd just like to say that I am not attempting to justify the morally heinous actions of tyrannical individuals of the Muslim faith, or any faith, nor am I Muslim myself.

TL;DR: Bad people will find reasons to do bad things, and religions aren't the source of heinous acts but a convenient excuse for evil people to do evil deeds. To generalize an entire religion as innately violent due to the unjust behavior of extremists groups and despotic governments that arose from secular causes is flawed and inaccurate.

[–]skadefryd 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't agree with everything /u/talltaleteller is saying, but I take issue with your tl;dr. Both the Qur'an and the Bible have been co-opted by radical groups for their own desires, sure. But whereas the Old Testament contains passages that dispassionately (or perhaps even with mild praise) describe genocide, slavery, war, etc., the Qur'an contains passages that outright advocate these things.

In a way, the caliphate ISIS is trying to bring about emerges straightforwardly from a naïve, literal reading of the Qur'an (as well as the hadith and sunnah), with no attempt at exegesis at all.

It's true that they are ignoring centuries of Islamic philosophy and jurisprudence that attempt to harmonize the Qur'an with the requirements of a civilized society. But consider the alternative: a state based on the laws of the Old Testament, with none of the added frills of two millennia of Jewish philosophy, theology, and rabbinical law. It would be barbaric and awful, but it probably would not be as bad as ISIS.

In the end, the key here seems to be that there is no such thing as "Islam"––there are just individual Muslims and the traditions they follow, some of which have historically been quite civilized and conducive to human rights, democracy, and secularism, and some of which have not been. In that respect it's similar to Judaism or Christianity, even if a bare reading of its holy text makes it seem "worse" on average.

It seems too easy, to me, to put the blame on Western imperialism in the Middle East and its destabilizing effects. This is definitely a factor, but there's more at work.

[–]DiscuxJust Romin' Around 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree. Looking back now, I realize I have placed too much emphasis on imperialism (Western, Ottoman, etc.) as a source of malcontent, and I completely agree that a state founded on literally interpreted principles of the Old Testament would be equally morally questionable (slavery, punishment for petty crimes, etc.). In my attempt to widen the scope so to speak and defend the fact that religion is not the sole source of inhumane behavior, I have become equally narrow in my blaming of such behavior solely on imperialism. Thank you.

[–]talltaleteller 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

However, the Bible itself is often subject to the same cherry-picking (especially in the violence filled Old Testament) where people quote verses from Deuteronomy when arguing against tattoos but totally ignore the fact that slavery was permitted and the fact that the ancient Israelites committed a complete ethnic genocide of the indigenous Canaanites.

You're right. But I'm not defending Christianity. This point of yours doesn't help your argument at all. You're actually committing the 'Tu Quoque' logical fallacy here. For the record, I am not Christian or Jewish, so even if your argument was not fallacious I would not have cared.

In these situations, moral failures arise not out of the inherently violent nature of the religion but from the despotic tendencies spawned by the harsh realities of post-imperial rule

I disagree completely. And since you have used no evidence to defend your point, I don't see the need to either. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that despotic tendencies spawned by post-imperial rule has done anything to change the behavior of the middle-east, in which women's rights and human rights have stayed fairly static for over 1000 years (apart from a period of improvement DURING the period of cultural by the same imperial powers you castigate).

Also, your Africa examples are different from the reality of the middle-east; Africa was subjected to over 100, in some cases more than 200 years of colonization; the Middle-East was never colonized in the same way or to the same extent, apart from perhaps French Algeria, which is now thoroughly decolonized.

Proportions of numerical size are of little concern to this analogy

That's retarded, frankly. If 1 man out of a group of 100 kills someone, I would have little to be concerned about with regards to the group. But if 10 men are doing it, I would start to have doubts. I am aware that not 10% of Muslims are killing people; this is a hypothetical example. But look at some opinion polls about what Muslims believe should happen to converts, gays and women who are raped, then tell me that the relative number of extremists in an organization isn't a problem.

it is only a true pity that many of the nations that suffer beneath unjust despotism share one confession of Islam or another

No, it isn't a coincidence actually at all.

placed in the exact same conditions, the same burdens of imperialism, colonialism, and economic exploitation, the countries you have mentioned would have been very similar to what they are now even if they were Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, or any other religion.

No, they would not, and you have not provided a shred of evidence convincing enough to suggest that they would. Yet I will argue against this misinformation of yours, though perhaps I shouldn't. Compare India and Pakistan in terms of religious freedoms and women's rights. Both were dominated by Muslim sultanates, but only one is majority Muslim today. Yet the difference in the way that minorities, women, etc are treated is striking.

[–]MubarakMMutairiإمارة صقلية -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

You are so expletive-deleted ignorant of Middle Eastern/Arab/Muslim history it's not even funny.

[–]EGGBETA 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

You want to actually make an argument? The above exchange is really satisfying because they're going back and (for the most part) actually citing sources and debating substantive points. Next time you pick a fight, consider contributing with actual points rather than just blindly insulting someone.

[–]MubarakMMutairiإمارة صقلية [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

They're not citing sources. There are no credible sources being cited anywhere. No links to reputable journals or quotes from respected authors or actual texts. All there is is the same regurgitated talking points that ignorant people spout about the Middle East/Arab world because they took one class in college.

I don't see the point in wasting time making an argument who are just going to spout the same nonsense over and over again. I'd much rather call them out and skip along with my day.

[–]Sangui 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is the internet. You can say fucking.

[–]DalewynUnited Kingdoms of Britannia 5ポイント6ポイント  (19子コメント)

Oh, please don't get me wrong! I fully understand that ISIS does not represent Islam in any way imaginable. I know that most muslims are good and respectable folks, just like any other respectable cultural or religious group of people would be.

I just wanted to say that the Middle East and the world at large would be a better place if Islam could get over the Sunni/Shia schism (preferably peacefully) and direct that energy towards more honorable endeavors. Life's way too short to be arguing lethally over differences in beliefs, you know?

[–]ArtemisShanksFraticelli 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

The religion itself has bigotry ingrained it's teachings. Christianity does too.

[–]DiscuxJust Romin' Around -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Bigotry and intolerance are an inevitable consequence of monotheism in general. Religious exclusivity, especially with an established ecclesiastical hierarchy, almost completely preclude the possibility for spiritual syncretism (notable exceptions exist, such as veneration of the saints and Din-i-Illahi, both of which can be interpreted as violating the core tenets of Christianity and Islam respectively) as was possible with Polytheistic faiths that could simply absorb other religions' deities and practices. Tolerance is often exchanged for zealous conviction, which can manifest in most unpleasant ways.

[–]PlayMp1Scandinavia is for the Norse! 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Christianity and Islam follow the same god, so that doesn't really help your case. Plus, Islam venerates basically all the same stuff Christianity does minus most Christian saints. Their end times prophecy has Jesus returning as one of the most important events during it. Jesus is a prophet of Islam the same as Muhammed, just less important.

[–]mrsegraves 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

You seem to forget the Christians killing each other over slightly different interpretations of the scriptures. They even killed each other over differing methodologies in delivering the sacrament. And so on and so on.

Yeah, the Shia Sunni split is pretty stupid to fight wars over. Islam is roughly 600 years younger than Christianity, and has had 600 less years to work out the kinks. Christians were killing each other over differences in interpretation 600 years ago. That's the way she goes, boys. The fuckin way she goes.

[–]Atomix26 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

yet, we have all of these new fangled ideas about like... secularism, and religious freedom, that are accessible world wide.

[–]mrsegraves 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm a big fan of secularism myself. I'd love to play a Cold War era game by Paradox. Just think of how deep the cultural stuff would be.

[–]PlayMp1Scandinavia is for the Norse! 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What happens when two shitplates collide, Bubbles?

[–]Notalent13 13ポイント14ポイント  (7子コメント)

If your going to bring up Israel its important to note that the Israeli's were originally willing to make peace with their neighbors and share Jerusalem.

50 years of wars of extermination later, and Israel has soured on the notion, even still they are actually a relative source of stability in the region and have made peace with many of their former enemies. Israel has formal peace treaties and recognition between themselves and Egypt and Jordan, in fact Israel and Jordan are regional allies and partners. Recently Israel GAVE Jordan 18 top of the line Cobra attack helicopters to help bolster the Jordanian Air Force and Army.

Its unreasonable to expect Israel to make peace with forces whose explicit goal is the extermination of every Israeli, and yes, that is the goal of the Hamas Terrorist Group in Palestine and their allies in Lebanon and Iran. Have the Israeli's done some awful things while defending themselves? Absolutely. Are the Palestinians some poor oppressed minority that just wants peace and doesn't deserve to be bullied by those evil Israeli's? Fuck no. There will be no real peace until the Palestinian people and their allies are willing to let there be peace, much like the Jordanians and Egyptians have finally decided.

[–]Dzukian 9ポイント10ポイント  (10子コメント)

Just gonna point this out about Israel: in 1967, Israel conquered the Old City of Jerusalem from Jordan. The Old City contains the Temple Mount, the holiest site in all of Judaism, the purported location of the Temple, and the point to which all Jews on Earth pray to. Hours after taking control of their holiest site (literally called the Holy of Holies), Israel turned the Temple Mount over to the Islamic Waqf, a Muslim organization run out of Jordan, to manage the site. If you're going to identify a single perpetrator of religious violence, it's frankly ridiculous to put Israel on your shortlist.

And also, the Israeli-Arab conflict is not particularly bloody. More than five times as many people have died in the Syrian Civil War in four years than in the entire history of the Israeli-Arab conflict.

[–]Baabaaer 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Did the Waqf maintain the place well?

[–]Dzukian 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Depends on who you ask, I guess. They've been caught being careless while doing extensive renovations and have also been accused of deliberately destroying Jewish artifacts. There's a whole group in Israel that sifts through the stuff the Waqf dumps off the Temple Mount to find pottery, bricks, etc..

[–]Baabaaer 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Should not have destroyed history just because it's not Islamic. Plaster it like Mehmet the Conqueror did to Hagia Sophia's wall decorations.

Edit: If I may explain, I suggest that writings or drawings of historical importance should be placed plaster on it. Why? Because if they are left open, vandals trying to 'emulate the example of Prophet Ibrahim a.s' will vandalise it to destroy the 'possibility of it turning away the faithfuls from their faith'. When everyone cooled down already, or their descendants don't feel so bellicose, then we can remove the plaster CAREFULLY! to study it. Of course, taking craploads of pictures is a good idea too.

[–]Notalent13 12ポイント13ポイント  (6子コメント)

Don't forget the fact that the Israeli's could have exterminated a huge force of Egyptians in the Sinai, and instead simply used them as a tool to negotiate peace. A real peace, that has lasted.

[–]PlatterWatcher 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Dear God, the amount of ignorance you're spewing out is incredible.

[–]TheLoneVigilant 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I thought I was the only one that noticed.

[–]Raven5887 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Islam needs to get the fuck over the Sunni/Shia schism.

Seriously have you looked at the map? Somehow pretty much one area on the earth has a shia majority and this area just so happens to be former great power Persia, a country/culture that used to fight the Arabs (or Arabic 'area' if you're uncomfortable calling Syrians/Egyptians Arabic peoples) on a daily basis since the dawn of time. Like protestantism/catholism the divide within Islam is completely (geo-)political.

anyone who's good and honest should be able to visit Jerusalem

I'm a dishonest bastard and I am able to visit Jerusalem