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[–]nichtschleppend [スコア非表示]  (63子コメント)

There no object measure of technology betterment.

Life expectancy.

Technology is just as effective at reducing life expectancy as increasing it...

[–]LimerickExplorer [スコア非表示]  (61子コメント)

Well that still goes in the OP's column: A repeating rifle is more effective at every measure when compared to a pointy stick.

[–]DblackRabbitTiger Millionaire [スコア非表示]  (25子コメント)

Unless you're underwater. Its like program languages fights and that futurama joke about the ship going underwater.

[–]PyreDruid [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

That's a better point that the one I was trying to make.

It's just so hard to see things outside of our own view of the world sometimes.

[–]DblackRabbitTiger Millionaire [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It is, meta-irony from the harry potter drama, a first world privilege.

[–]LimerickExplorer [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Why did the Native Americans eagerly snatch up rifles and horses when they became available? What they had was good enough, right?

[–]PyreDruid [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Because when the people you're fighting have guns they go from a unnecessary to develop luxury to a necessity.

What they had was good enough up until that point, that's the point not an argument against it.

[–]LimerickExplorer [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

What they had may have been good enough, but the guns were an improvement. They could hunt more reliably and take down game more safely. Horses allowed them to carry more weight further. These objectively improved their condition- it was an advance.

[–]PyreDruid [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Who says the guns were an improvement. They're just a necessity.

You're hung up on the term "improved" which doesn't make sense in this situation.

Is an SUV an improvement over a sports car? No, but if you have 5 kids it might be a necessity.

[–]LimerickExplorer [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

How were the guns a necessity? They already had hunting tools.

Improved is the only word that makes sense. We're talking about killing stuff. Guns kill stuff better.

SUVs and sports cars have different jobs. You guys need to step up your game unless its an awful analogy contest.

[–]ucstructDon't gild me under any circumstances [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

they go from a unnecessary to develop luxury to a necessity.

Because they are much more advanced. If they wanted to develop that capability at the point in time, they couldn't. That isn't true the other way around.

[–]LimerickExplorer [スコア非表示]  (16子コメント)

Guns can fire underwater, but even if they couldn't, you're being obtuse

The original point I responded to was that technology was more effective at ending lives. You could be pedantic, and point out that sticks are quiet, and don't need ammo, and I'm sure countless other advantages a stick might have in very specific and rare situations, but the bottom line is that if something needs to be killed, a gun is a more effective tool.

A gun is an objectively more advanced killing implement than a pointed stick.

[–]DblackRabbitTiger Millionaire [スコア非表示]  (15子コメント)

I'm not being obtuse, the point is that environment is the key to measuring, and removing the environment makes the measurement pointless. Its like saying that a motor boat is more advance then a fan boat when talking about swamps.

[–]LimerickExplorer [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Who would say a motor boat is more advanced than a fan boat? They operate on the same principles, and have the same components.

[–]ByStilgarsBeardA man's drama belongs to his tribe. [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Rowboat is superior, doesn't require fuel.

[–]LimerickExplorer [スコア非表示]  (12子コメント)

The environment is Earth. 1,000,000 individuals with modern rifles face off against 1,000,000 individuals with pointy sticks on every continent, every biome, every season, every time of day, and every possible weather condition. We play out every possible scenario and engage at ranges from one mile to one foot. We do scenarios where the guy with the gun is asleep when stickman attacks, then they switch positions. We have attacks from behind, in the dark, on a bed of hot coals, dressed as gorillas, trapped in an elevator, chained to large iron balls, blind, deaf, no feet, no hands, toddler fights, old man fights, toddlers versus old men...

When we're done, we add up the kills. Where do you put your money? Rifles or sticks?

[–]DblackRabbitTiger Millionaire [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

The gun, but how do you use the measurement of creating a repeating rifle when talking about a civilization that doesn't have steel? Are they less advance because they didn't have the resource?

[–]draje175 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Yes absolutely, technology advancement is objective. A space ship is more advance than a plane, a plane more than a car, a car more than a buggy. Lacking resources simply means they weren't given the tools to advanced, but objectively they did not advance. There's nothing good or bad implied by it, it's simply a standard. As well there are different aspects of technology, it's possible for areas to be more advanced than others and yet still compare. One society can have better x, and another can have better y. They can objectively look at these areas and say we are more advanced at this thing, while they are more advanced at that thing. There is no 'relativistic' equalness in this. Some older things may be better at some very specific aspects but they are not technologically advanced compared to their counterparts. A wooden boat doesn't pollute but it's not as technologically advanced as a submarine or a cruise liner. Having different goals in mind isn't the primary stepping Ladder on advancedness

[–]DblackRabbitTiger Millionaire [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Having different goals in mind isn't the primary stepping Ladder on advancedness

I mean it is, you don't build a space station to need to survive 500 atmospheres of pressure, they goal is the entire point, I might have been confusing when I was talking about pointy sticks not being more advance then guns, because I was still talking on a civilization scale, it you don't have any anchor points, you're comparing apples and oranges. Technology isn't a linear scale, thinking that is why /r/badhistory as The Chart.

[–]draje175 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

A society not needing some aspect of technology to survive doesn't mean they are advanced, it simply means they don't need it. The goal is the point OF creating better technology, but it's possible to compare things that have different goals and be able to say one is more advanced than another. A hunter gatherer society has different goals that say an industrial society, but they industrial has objectively more advanced technology in general. You cannot compare advanced-ness in culture but you sure can with technology. A calculator is factly more advanced than an abacus

[–]LimerickExplorer [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

Our environment is the universe. The tools of necessity are those that will allow us to leave our home planet and avoid extinction to a cosmic event.

The technology that is closer to achieving this goal is more advanced than a previous technology or one that is less effective.

[–]DblackRabbitTiger Millionaire [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

The technology that is closer to achieving this goal is more advanced than a previous technology or one that is less effective.

and how does a repeating rifle measure in this?

[–]AegeusPath to Popcorn [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This whole argument seems to be framing it as "Who's better at X task?", which is obviously going to be arbitrary based on what task you pick. I think a more productive way of framing it might be "Who has more capabilities available to them?"

To put it another way, if we had to start fighting with pointy sticks for some reason (because the Gods of Anthropology demand it), we could do that easily. The technology that makes guns can easily be applied to sharpen sticks.

But if a society that only knows how to make pointy sticks has to start fighting with rifles, they're going to need a lot more effort. They need to learn the metalworking to make the gun parts and the chemistry of gunpowder to load them and the physics that shows why rifling works. They have less capability to fight with rifles. Regardless of whether fighting with rifles makes them better, the society that can fight with both sticks and rifles is more capable than the one that can only fight with sticks.

I think this might be a more productive way of phrasing "advancement." Ignore the questions of "What does this society want to do?" and focus on the technological question: "What could this society accomplish with the knowledge they have?"

Yes, there's some nuance over does theoretical knowledge count, does it count if they forgot knowledge that would help in earlier situations, etc. etc. But I think that making a definition that even vaguely approximates a layman's idea of "advanced" is better than constantly trying to explain to laymen why an atlatl should be considered equivalent to a jet fighter.

[–]LimerickExplorer [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

The short answer? Far far ahead of the pointy stick.

For the long answer, let's think about what it takes to make a rifle, and the companion technologies that will save mankind:

Gun powder .... Rocketry.

Barrel, receiver.... Metallurgy.

Ballistics research.... Computers. (ENIAC).

Bullet design... Aerodynamics (V2 rocket was patterned on a rifle shell.).

Rifling.... Gyrostabilizers.... Navigation.

Small moving parts... Advanced Manufacturing.

The development of the modern rifle had a direct impact on many of the technologies that got us to the moon and will get us off Earth.

[–]PyreDruid [スコア非表示]  (34子コメント)

The problem is if a technological "advance" is unnecessary for a group to live, and they don't produce it, they're not "primitive".

Take a planet that has humans, but only one continent. Are they less advanced for not having planes?

That's what I'm getting out of this.

[–]LimerickExplorer [スコア非表示]  (33子コメント)

Yes they are objectively less technologically advanced than a civilization that does have planes.

It's not a judgment of their worth, and their humanity is in no way lessened, but they are by definition less advanced technologically

[–]DblackRabbitTiger Millionaire [スコア非表示]  (18子コメント)

Not really, technology is created for convenience, to use some fictional places, is Diskworld less advance then Tommorrowland?

[–]LimerickExplorer [スコア非表示]  (17子コメント)

to use some fictional places.

I think I see why OP in the drama thread lost his shit.

[–]PyreDruid [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

It's just all relative. If you live in the US you might well say "look how much more advanced we are than that culture that still needs Oxen to farm".

Meanwhile they're saying "look how much more advanced we are being able to farm without destroying the environment and making farming harder next year".

Who's right?

[–]zxcv1992 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Well the US would be more advanced technology wise but that isn't automatically a good thing. The nuclear bomb was an advancement in nuclear physics and weapons technology but it's not exactly a good thing. Having greater technology advances doesn't mean you're better it just means you have greater technological advances.

[–]LimerickExplorer [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Where is it written that we have to destroy the environment with our methods? You're faking drawbacks to strengthen your argument. Ox farmer feeds maybe ten people. An environmentally responsible modern farmer feeds 1,000.

[–]PyreDruid [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Modern farming with machines is going to pollute more than a guy tilling a field with a horse.

So if you want to argue that, you're going to have to argue that on your own.

Even a solar powered tractor will create more pollution during manufacture than an Ox. The safest fertilizers can run off. Etc etc.

[–]LimerickExplorer [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Unless the damage completely cancels the advantages or is greater than the advantages, it's a net gain for humanity.

We're supporting 7 billion people with modern agriculture. Oxen supported a few million. Is modern agriculture perfect? No. Is it better for the advancement of mankind than using oxen? Yes.

You speak of relativity, but we're all doomed if we don't find a way to leave earth and live on other worlds. Subsistence farming will not achieve this.

[–]DblackRabbitTiger Millionaire [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

Okay, West Africa didn't have a bronze age, were they more advance then the Romans? You thinking in terms of thing you believe you need and are assuming all enviroments require those same things, its a subjective measure of things.

[–]zxcv1992 [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

Okay, West Africa didn't have a bronze age, were they more advance then the Romans?

Well the Romans had ironworks too, but whoever had the ability to create more pure and stronger iron in efficient methods would be the one who had more advanced technology when it came to working with iron.

[–]DblackRabbitTiger Millionaire [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

Okay, to put it a different way is making Damacus Steel more advance if is based on just having a specific form of iron that just formed where you were at? That's not being advance that being lucky.

[–]zxcv1992 [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

Okay, to put it a different way is making Damacus Steel more advance if is based on just having a specific form of iron that just formed where you were at?

Well the steel would be better but I would say that if it's just luck then it's not a technological advance. But with Damascus steel there was an actual technique that was very advanced for the time, but now it has been surpassed by modern methods of steel making, so the technology of steel making has advanced.

[–]PyreDruid [スコア非表示]  (13子コメント)

So to be more advanced you have to waste resources developing a technology that you don't need instead of refining ones you do?

That makes no sense at all. My guess is their trains blow ours out of the water. Or they have neither but the environment is cleaner. It's all trade offs.

[–]LimerickExplorer [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

A civilization with aeronautics experience could quickly harness any train-related developments, and they would have an advantage once again shortly after contact. Train people would have more trouble adapting to 3D movement and aerodynamics not related to keeping a train moving.

But the odds of an earthbound society out-developing one that had achieved flight -even in trains- are pretty slim.

[–]PyreDruid [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

So we have aeronautics. Where is our 450mph water based train system that runs on time?

And wait. We built trains before planes, how did that work when we hadn't mastered aeronautics before trains? If we had no need to fly, it's quite conceivable we wouldn't have or would have stopped at proof of concept.

You're point is really missing one.

[–]LimerickExplorer [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Why do you have to keep making up fictitious examples? The existence of a fairy tale super water train has nothing to do with the the real world. Our current train technology is pretty mature, as is the modern jet engine.

I'm tired of beating down your strawmen and dumb analogies. We had trains before planes because planes are MORE ADVANCED. Things we learned from building trains helped us build planes, but that doesn't mean one is required for the other. You logic is horrendous. If you have to keep turning to things that don't exist in a debate with countless real world examples, you should realize that your argument is awful.

[–]zxcv1992 [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

Yeah but if they were still using steam engines I would say they are less technologically advanced. Also refining the ones you do use is advancing the technology, if they had super fast no pollution trains that run off water I would say they are way more advanced even if they had no planes.

[–]PyreDruid [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

I think the issue is more that's how we define advanced.

There's no guarantee any other culture would. And there's no guarantee we are right. They might have water based trains and think "they have trains that fly, that's way more advanced".

Who's right?

[–]zxcv1992 [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

I think the issue is more that's how we define advanced.

I would say it's defined by the greater knowledge of how and why things work the way they do and knowing how to use this knowledge to create things.

There's no guarantee any other culture would. And there's no guarantee we are right. They might have water based trains and think "they have trains that fly, that's way more advanced".

I doubt it after they see the cost of planes due to the pollution they cause. Being able to power an engine just from water would be a massive advancement from the current use of fossil fuels.

[–]PyreDruid [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

You doubt it because of your bias and the society you're in and the situation you see in the world.

A society without planes seeing a 747 take off might just be "holy shit! That thing can fly?". Even if their train technology would make us think we live in the stone age.

[–]SpiveyArms [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

And why would you think that a people who have developed water powered engines wouldn't also look to develop flight?

[–]zxcv1992 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

A society without planes seeing a 747 take off might just be "holy shit! That thing can fly?". Even if their train technology would make us think we live in the stone age.

We would be more advanced in aeronautics and they would be more advanced in Engine technology (dunno if there is a fancy term for that). It doesn't make one or the other better it just means that in certain scientific and technological fields that are more advanced.

[–]LimerickExplorer [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

If they had engine technology that made a 747 look primitive, they wouldn't be impressed by the 747. They would know that flight is possible and understand the mechanisms at work.

I'm getting a strong sense that you don't know how things work, and this ignorance is unfortunately tainting your thought processes.

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