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TheismIs God physical? Does he have mass, density or angular momentum somewhere in space? (self.DebateReligion)

MikeyTupper が 投稿

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[–]MikeyTupper[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (14子コメント)

numbers are things we think up to represent reality. They do not exist as such, they have no wavefunction

[–]optimalpath 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

Quantities aren't real? We invented them?

[–]MikeyTupper[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (9子コメント)

well yeah. Water does not appear in discrete amounts of one gallon. We make up measurements and split the water accordingly.

[–]optimalpath 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

No, obviously units of measurement are arbitrary. I asked if you think quantities are real. See, most mathematicians believe that doing math yields objective truth about reality. Humans do not "invent" mathematics, but rather discover it, and any other intelligent beings in the universe would presumably do the same and get the same results. So their gallon might not be like ours, but adding 2 and 2 will always yield 4.

So you don't think mathematics deals with facts about the universe that are objectively true?

[–]MikeyTupper[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

aren't quantities simply a state of things?

[–]optimalpath 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

But we can talk about the quantities themselves, and facts about them, without any reference to any physical objects.

[–]MikeyTupper[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

What makes quantities real in your posit, is that we talk about them, that we acknowledge them. Doesn't this go back to the old "if a tree falls in the wood" question?

[–]optimalpath 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

If I can talk about them, and the things I say can be independently arrived upon by an alien without any access to my language, my form of abstraction, or anything else involved in reaching my conclusion, then it stands to reason that we are both talking about the same "thing"; a real thing which has real properties independent of any party's perception.

It's not just that we can acknowledge them, it's that their properties seem to be immutable no matter who or what is acknowledging, and indeed if there were no minds to acknowledge them, they would still have these properties. They are mind-independent and objectively real in that sense, yet they are abstract and thus have no physical referent.

EDIT: no idea about what the tree falling question has to do with it.

[–]MikeyTupper[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

i would debate that quantity is a property at all. It is not inherent to any physical thing to possess a quantity by itself. It's a fact that at different orders of magnitude, matter acts differently, and that is immutable.

[–]optimalpath 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't understand how this is a response to what I said. Quantities are properties?

It is not inherent to any physical thing to possess a quantity by itself.

Right, which means they're not properties.

[–]OediumAgnostic l Ardent Triclavianist 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Are centers of gravity real?