上位 200 件のコメント表示する 500

[–]DeltaBlack 4312ポイント4313ポイント  (2103子コメント)

This is actually a crime in Germany and he could have gone to prison for 3 years.

EDIT: It's been pointed out that he is likely to be fined and that 3 years are usually for repeat offenders like neo-nazis.

[–]AcuteAppendagitis 954ポイント955ポイント  (195子コメント)

Unless you are using it for art, or parody.

[–]DeltaBlack 571ポイント572ポイント  (72子コメント)

... or as part of an anti-facist symbol1 or for educational purposes.

1 Yes technically art, but that's also a political statement.

[–]camel69 305ポイント306ポイント  (59子コメント)

IIRC someone fairly famous in Germany actually got into trouble for using a nazi symbol because he wore/sold (?) something like this this

[–]DeltaBlack 249ポイント250ポイント  (42子コメント)

Yes, there was a controversy in 2005, but in 2007 it was ruled to be legal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a#Anti-fascism_symbols

[–]B0NERSTORM 204ポイント205ポイント  (25子コメント)

Yeah and that's a loophole that's used to sell Nazi shit. When I was in Germany I went to some tiny shop. It was filled with nazi shit, but they all had various swastikas with the "no" sign on them. While browsing two guys who suspiciously looked like skin heads came in and went into the back room. When I took a closer look I noticed all the "no" symbols were stickers that were barely on the objects. I kind of regret not buying anything there because it would have been an interesting story but the owner was too creepy.

[–]mostnormal 113ポイント114ポイント  (19子コメント)

It was still an interesting story. Describe the owner and how creepy he was.

[–]B0NERSTORM 174ポイント175ポイント  (15子コメント)

He was bald with liver spots on his head and tufts of hair around his ears. He looked like a troll with little reading glasses on. When we walked in he just said Wilcommen or whatever and then just sat there with this creepy grin on his face the whole time as he watched us intensely from his stool with his fingers laced over his stomach. It's like the grin you imagine someone having while jerking off behind the bushes by the kiddie pool. It could have just been that there were a couple of attractive women with us, but it was super creepy.

We went in there because one of the girls said a friend asked her to get something "weird" while in Germany. She ended up leaving before anyone else. When we went outside she said she left because the guy was creeping her out, so her fiancee went back in and just grabbed something to buy, which ended up being a WWI looking gas mask with no markings.

While I was in there I was seriously tempted to buy something. What stopped me was wondering what security would think if they found it my bag on my return home, "no" symbol or not. This was in Munich, some time around 2010 I think.

[–]Natdaprat 44ポイント45ポイント  (2子コメント)

Exactly as I imagined. Thank you for this vivid explanation, now my imagination can relax.

[–]JustARandomGerman 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

He looked like a troll with little reading glasses on

So you met Himmler's missing son?

[–]DasND 301ポイント302ポイント  (64子コメント)

There are a couple good ways to turn a swastika into parody:
This
Or this
Or this
Or this
Or this
Or this

[–]evilarhan 127ポイント128ポイント  (42子コメント)

You know, as an Indian, I've had just about enough of this swastika bashing.

GIVE US BACK OUR HOLY SYMBOL, YOU DAMN DIRTY NAZIS!

[–]worldnewsrager 18ポイント19ポイント  (4子コメント)

meh, it's a cross with serifs dude. Next to a circle, a cross is literally the 2nd easiest image to draw ever. You don't even have to be trying, you could accidentally make a cross if someone runs up behind you and scares you and your hand jumps. Like no one gets startled and ends up drawing the Mona Lisa. Sprinkle in some serifs and over-time accentuate them more and more and boom, couple generations you got yourself a swastica.

But yea anyway, the symbol is crazy prolific. It's cropped up in pretty much every culture with various amounts of embellishings. It's probably as old as man, due to the ease with which it is drawn.

[–]slack 21ポイント22ポイント  (1子コメント)

Next to a circle, a cross is literally the 2nd easiest image to draw ever.

Says the guy who has never tried to draw a circle before. I jest...

but really, I couldn't draw a nice circle to save my life.

[–]LuxArdens 29ポイント30ポイント  (3子コメント)

R.I.P. swastika. (I was seriously freaked out the first time I saw a Buddhist temple with swastikas all over it...)

[–]NorthtoYukon 1298ポイント1299ポイント  (1557子コメント)

seriously?

[–]DeltaBlack 1647ポイント1648ポイント  (705子コメント)

Jep according to this imgur post he was arrested:

http://imgur.com/gallery/HEYjqmr

According to this Bild-article he was just charged (German link):

http://www.bild.de/news/inland/adolf-hitler/hier-baendigt-ein-polizist-einen-hitlergruss-affen-42030530.bild.html

EDIT: To add there is the German Strafgesetzbuch section 86a and in Austria the Verbotsgesetz.

[–]sharktank 608ポイント609ポイント  (639子コメント)

hmmmm, ya got any more of those...translations?

[–]DeltaBlack 660ポイント661ポイント  (540子コメント)

The article doesn't say much it's only 10 or so sentences.

There was a demonstration for the rights of refugees he "greeted" that way. The cop in the picture was part of the detail securing the demonstration. He obviously presses the man's arm down and explains the legal situation.

The man is a 57-year-old retiree from Freital in Saxony. The article points out that he used to be a miner from the former DDR (Eastern Germany).

The police man took his information and he is going to be charged under the Strafgesetzbuch section 86a. No mention of an arrest.

[–]Drev0008 630ポイント631ポイント  (37子コメント)

They should have arrested young smokie there for rockin' that haircut.

[–]animalsofprogress 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

Little pumpkin pie, hair cutted freak. *Dumb and Dumber

[–]CookieDoughCooter 109ポイント110ポイント  (451子コメント)

How does a miner retire at the young age of 57? Hard to believe they have saved up enough to live off of. Maybe he couldn't mine anymore, but I figure he'd need to do something to sustain himself.

[–]shallow- 591ポイント592ポイント  (122子コメント)

Germany has a well funded social services system and pension system.

They have three layers of pension, one layer provided by the government, one by the employer, and a personal fund.

[–]dubate 68ポイント69ポイント  (39子コメント)

Well if the government can give you 20% (after taking almost 35% for decades), your employer can give you 20% and you invest enough to get another 20%, that's a pretty solid pension.

[–]ChieferSutherland 236ポイント237ポイント  (65子コメント)

Bismarck practically invented the modern welfare state so it's a pretty deeply ingrained part of German culture

[–]MoBaconMoProblems 8ポイント9ポイント  (13子コメント)

The German system rocks. And they're one of the strongest economies in the world. They seem to have their act together.

[–]RandPaulsBrilloBalls 492ポイント493ポイント  (187子コメント)

Pensions, baby. The United States is one of the few first world countries that got rid of pensions. Companies used to give you those for working there a long time. It made employees loyal and retirement decent and reasonable. Then they replaced them all with 401(k)s, which are actually named after a loophole in the 1978 tax code that was never meant to be used as a retirement system for the masses. Now you need to save until you're 70 and hope for the best.

The funny thing is that few people realize that the most popular retirement savings vehicle in the United States was not legislated or discussed on the floor of Congress, but rather an accident of a 1978 law that a benefits consultant figured out could be exploited in 1980. And nobody has done anything to fix it since.

[–]DJClearmix 20ポイント21ポイント  (12子コメント)

Namibian here, I didn't realize you guys don't have government/company pension as standard. Makes that lack of paid mandatory vacation/medical leave seem even worse, what do you work your whole life for?

[–]RandPaulsBrilloBalls 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, most company workers can't get one anymore. Most government workers still can get one. But that's changing now too. It has changed a lot in the last 20 years. This BLS article tells the story with data. http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2012/12/art1full.pdf

[–]frankster 8ポイント9ポイント  (6子コメント)

Corporate pensions have been disastrous though when companies go under or mis-manage their pensions. So corporate pensions either need to be contracted out to a 3rd party or provided by the state. But contracting pensions out to a 3rd party is basically the same as individuals saving into their own pension plan. So the move away from corporate pensions is probably a good thing.

[–]jackthereader 107ポイント108ポイント  (1子コメント)

In most of western europe we have a "socialist culture". We believe that people having hard jobs harming their health should retire earlier than office workers. Thus miner, railroadworker etc... can enjoy too 10 years of healty retirement before getting sick and dying.

I know that a part of all the money I pay for retirement goes for these guys, and that's fine I still earn more money, and will live longer anyway

[–]StrikeAnywherePanda 60ポイント61ポイント  (3子コメント)

I took German in high school...

...so yeah... I don't know.

[–]harvestah 84ポイント85ポイント  (7子コメント)

When Bild calls you an ape you know you've fallen hard...

[–]mitthrawn 14ポイント15ポイント  (3子コメント)

Freital is such a disgrace for the region and Germany as a whole. Someone wanna give that town asyl or something? We pay for it!

[–]5thStrangeIteration 610ポイント611ポイント  (245子コメント)

I mean, if your country was responsible for something that bad less than 100 years ago and the new people in charge want to be a modern first world country, I can see them being like "guys, nobody fucking do anything related to that fucking shit ever again."

[–]neotropic9 253ポイント254ポイント  (70子コメント)

Actually the rationale for these laws is more like, "well, the war is done but there are still tens of thousands of Nazis living here, and we can't do anything to get rid of them, so we pretty much have to make it illegal to Nazi stuff."

[–]bilog78 169ポイント170ポイント  (63子コメント)

we can't do anything to get rid of them,

The paradox of being a modern, democratic country. It can't really prevent its total opposite from gaining power legally, unless you choose to be a little bit _un_democratic.

[–]fiodorson 48ポイント49ポイント  (1子コメント)

Big problem after war was organizing law forces, especially finding good officers. Most of the guys with good experience and talent were former military, a lot of them from SS. Germany not only didn't wanted to get rid of this guys, they get them in the system again.

[–]Geofferic 469ポイント470ポイント  (94子コメント)

Indeed.

About 10 years ago I was in Berlin for uni (my mom is German, I was raised in the US) and I was pretty plastered on the train with a buddy (we were in law school).

I started singing what I thought was still the German National Anthem.

Apparently, only the third stanza is now used, but for about 15 seconds before my friend told me to shut-up and explained the situation, I was terrorizing some people on the train with my rather loud, large, drunk and very Aryan self belting out

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles, Über alles in der Welt, Wenn es stets zu Schutz und Trutze Brüderlich zusammenhält. Von der Maas bis an die Memel, Von der Etsch bis an den Belt ...

For context for those who don't understand why the first stanza is particularly troubling (other than "Germany above everything in the world"), the Maas is a river in Belgium (not in modern Germany), the Memel is a river past Poland in Lithuania and Belarus, the Etsch is a river in Italy, and the Belt is a strait between some German and Danish islands (and the only legit border of modern Germany in the song). So in other words, a modern person singing the song is essentially saying that these are the borders Germany should have.

Yanno. To have a little ... living space.

[–]Rarehero 417ポイント418ポイント  (38子コメント)

You have to understand the historical context. Originally "Deutschland über alles in der Welt" didn't mean to imply that Germany is greater than every other nation. Before 1872 Germany was lose collection of individual countries. That particular line expresses the wish that these countries should be united in a single German state. It was about unity and not supermacy.

Furthermore back then the German countries covered a territory that actually stretched roughly from the Masse to the Memel and from the Belt to the Etsch. So naturally when the 19th century Germany were talking about Germany, they were talking about that territory.

Of course due to certain events that I have heard of on the History Channel the third stanza of the "Deutschlandlied" has different flavor today. It is easy to misinterpret the text as a wish for supremacy, and for some reason the Poles don't take it lightly when certain people talk about historical German borders in Eastern Europe.

[–]jocamar 56ポイント57ポイント  (18子コメント)

There are an impressive amount of anthems whose meanings have changed over time, or at least are interpreted differently due to a lack of knowledge of the context in which they were made. Our anthem is basically a call to arms against the British, because at the time anti-british sentiment was high, but today it's just interpreted as a generic call to arms to improve the country.

[–]tired_commuter 32ポイント33ポイント  (0子コメント)

The "rebellious Scots to crush" line from God Save the Queen always gets skipped for some reason...

[–]Leo_Verto 76ポイント77ポイント  (4子コメント)

Well, the lyrics of the "Deuschlandlied" were originally not meant in the way that Germany would be better than other states, but that the idea of a unified Germany should be furthered instead of many small, mostly insignificant states.

The bordering rivers aren't actually that far off when you look at this map (for non-German speakers, German was the prevalent language in the green area).

As for modern people singing that song, certainly troubling. Unfortunately neo nazis have that tendency to ruin certain songs for everyone else.

[–]RyanRagido 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nazis have a tendency to ruin everything. The ways they twisted and bend Nietzsches ideas makes me sick.

[–]madjic 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

I started singing what I thought was still the German National Anthem.

At least you didn't sing the Horst-Wessel-Lied

[–]linesreadlines[S] 286ポイント287ポイント  (44子コメント)

he could have gone to prison for 3 years.

While Nazi symbology outside of artistic or educational work is illegal in Germany, its extremely rare that prison sentences are handed out. That clause exists to punish far right neo nazi groups who leave behind nazi symbology at crime scenes, it wouldn't be applied to regular citizens. At worst he'll get a fine.

Also Seig Heil

[–]DeltaBlack 60ポイント61ポイント  (26子コメント)

Which makes it more likely that he was only charged and not arrested. It's no use to arrest someone for something that'll end in a fine.

[–]HornAndDrunky 77ポイント78ポイント  (53子コメント)

I wonder if they have a secret police force that goes out and hunts all the neo-nazis. That would be terribly ironic on so many levels.

[–]seewolfmdk 41ポイント42ポイント  (46子コメント)

Yes, kind of. There are the "Bundesverfassungsschutz" and in most states there are a "Landesverfassungsschutz". The are comparable to the NSA and the FBI, like a mix of them.

[–]istartedi 55ポイント56ポイント  (21子コメント)

"Bundesverfassungsschutz" and in most states there are a "Landesverfassungsschutz".

I know it's not hard for Germans; but as an American I can't help but picture the racists cowering in fear, thinking "Oh no, please don't let them come in. They might make us try to pronounce that".

[–]McDouchevorhang 21ポイント22ポイント  (10子コメント)

There, you found an easy way to increase the effectiveness of your law enforcement agencies: Adopt German grammar and make it the Nationalsecurityagency and the Federalbureauofinvestigations. The latter is even scarier than the German agencies!

[–]placeo_effect 24ポイント25ポイント  (8子コメント)

Weren't they found to be colluding with these hate groups for many years?

[–]seewolfmdk 33ポイント34ポイント  (2子コメント)

Should've said: It was in their job description to go out and hunt Neo-Nazis.

They tried to keep an eye on them by paying "spies". Those spies were unreliable (as spies are) and gave the money to the Neo-Nazi groups (not an expert on that, but that's what I know). But yeah, they fucked up in some way.

[–]ultramarine8 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, not really. But they were dumb situations. Like in one case they had undercover people in a far-right party... but it turned out, basically every department had their own informers, and when it was time for the court date, it became clear that its mostly informers digging up dirt of other informers. Which was hillarious, as at some point it really looked like everybody was undercover...

[–]ICanBeAnyone 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Collusion is a bit much, but there have been institutional problems for sure. One thing is that historically, the Verfassungsschutz has been watching the left far more closely than the right (given that Neonazis burnt the occasional Refugee house flashmob style, while the RAF used to kill statesmen and bankers), and as /u/seewolfmdk said, they we're ineptly funding Neonazi groups through their undercover investigator program. :/

[–]_morganspurlock 1051ポイント1052ポイント  (73子コメント)

Are bowl cuts making a come back?

[–]high_side 661ポイント662ポイント  (32子コメント)

Right? This is the real problem.

[–]sincerelyryan 137ポイント138ポイント  (15子コメント)

I think every guy in their 20's-30's has a photo of them with this haircut that they'd like to burn.

[–]_31415_ 37ポイント38ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'm so glad digital media wasn't as much of a thing when I was a teenager.

[–]piackl 28ポイント29ポイント  (4子コメント)

Seriously this. All my embarrassing moments are in some old family album in a box in the basement somewhere, instead of Facebook for the whole world to be able to access forever. Thank. God.

[–]SqueezyCheez85 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ha! Jokes on you, I've had the same haircut my entire life!

😞

[–]Obsidian_monkey 31ポイント32ポイント  (7子コメント)

The undercut is just an Illuminati conspiracy to bring back the bowl cut.

[–]v_e_x 2569ポイント2570ポイント  (49子コメント)

Meanwhile in 1945:

http://i.imgur.com/AsdTcdD.jpg

[–]Hades_Re 135ポイント136ポイント  (0子コメント)

I like the smile on their faces

[–]Tammo-Korsai 146ポイント147ポイント  (13子コメント)

[–]Skdkkdkdd 48ポイント49ポイント  (7子コメント)

man this picture gets me every time

being german myself, i have a hard time imagining what this man felt in this moment

[–]Tammo-Korsai 100ポイント101ポイント  (3子コメント)

The defiant man was August Landmesser. He quit the Nazi party so he could marry a Jewish woman.

[–]conuka 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

While the english wikipedia just states "Whether the depicted man is Landmesser is not known with certainty.", the german one has some links to backup the claim that him being Landmesser is a "little funded assumption" and that there is a "high probability" of the man actually being Gustav Wegert (1890–1959).

[–]DeezyDM 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

If I recall, this picture sits inside the Holocaust Museum in Berlin (in the former building that housed the SS). The man was identified by his peers and thrown in jail which was indicative of how strong the power that hung over the people really was...

[–]my_name_is_gato 978ポイント979ポイント  (82子コメント)

Have you seen Kyle? Seen Kyle? He is about this tall...

[–]linesreadlines[S] 600ポイント601ポイント  (64子コメント)

[–]kibble 45ポイント46ポイント  (2子コメント)

Camilla and Boris had a good laugh over that, in the back left.

[–]StoneyLepi 24ポイント25ポイント  (0子コメント)

...and went that way

[–]Gtownbadass 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

The sun is bright!

[–]Django_Unchanged 587ポイント588ポイント  (97子コメント)

That shit is no joke there. Gestures like this or spray painting swastikas will get you in some serious trouble.

[–]dablumoon 179ポイント180ポイント  (79子コメント)

Can I ask you something about this? I remember watching a documentary clip about Neo-Nazis almost getting into fight with antifascists who were protesting in some town in Germany. The police (in green) was there to separate the two sides and make sure no physical contact was made.

These Neo-Nazis had their own bar and had flags, shirts, tattoos etc relating to Nazism. So how come they're not arrested or banned in this case? This always confused me.

EDIT: For anyone wondering, thanks to some helpful people who replied to my comment- I have found out that loose references (no direct Nazi symbols etc) is not enough to get one arrested. So most of these far right/ Neo Nazis in Germany wear black, shave their heads, and have ominous symbols (that looks like Nazi stuff at first glance) here and there to reference Nazism, but do not flaunt actual Nazi symbols in order to avoid arrest. TIL.

[–]hassface 142ポイント143ポイント  (21子コメント)

Because not everything is forbidden in germany, have a read:

http://understandinggermany.de/society/tainted-words-and-symbols/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a

I seriously doubt there were people with actual forbidden symbols in a bar with the police knowing about it.

[–]wyok 34ポイント35ポイント  (2子コメント)

From what I understand, the neo Nazis use symbolism that is pretty blatantly obvious but not technically against the law. Still, everyone knows who they are and what they're doing.

[–]Slevin_Kedavra 42ポイント43ポイント  (26子コメント)

Your edit sums it up pretty well. I'm a social worker with a long personal history of antifascist activism, so I know the ins and outs of the German neo-Nazi scenes. Lots of German neo-Nazis will use - as you wrote- stuff that loosely connects to Nazi-symbolism or even distantly related stuff e. g. triskelions, celtic/germanic pagan stuff, runes, different types of crosses and the likes. Or codes like the '14 words', 88 (or 44x2 or 11x8 ...) and those neo-Nazi clothing brands (e. g. Thor Steinar, Erik & Sons and - I shit you not - Ansgar Aryan).

At the moment though they're trying to copy leftist youth cultures like the antifa 'black bloc', Hardcore punk and even Hipster scenes. Of course, that's nothing new, as neo-Nazis basically infiltrated the skinhead culture in the 90s to the point that to this day most people associate the word Skinhead with neo-Nazism. It can be quite difficult though, for the unschooled eye, to distinguish neo-Nazi Hardcore bands from apolitical or even leftist bands because they purposely present themselves in a stylish, non-martial and 'hip' way to cater to apolitical clienteles.

It's not unusual to see a neo-Nazi activist with black skinny jeans, Vans Sk8-Hi shoes or Nike Air Max and a Terror or Hatebreed or Agnostic Front hoody. They even tried to infiltrate the Straight Edge movement ('for the purity of your race'), although I'd guess most of the Nazis still love being white trash too much to abstain from drugs and alcohol.

[–]Pryvete 221ポイント222ポイント  (78子コメント)

Why is that guy in riot gear?

[–]MarlborosandCoke 282ポイント283ポイント  (48子コメント)

He was part of a squad that was there to monitor a protest against refugees that was going on. The saluter was making it towards that protest group.

[–]monadicgames 99ポイント100ポイント  (44子コメント)

So it was to mock them?

[–]MarlborosandCoke 67ポイント68ポイント  (19子コメント)

It's hard to say. There are conflicting opinions about whether it was done to sarcastically mock them or to show some sort of allegiance with their cause. Ultimately, the only person who knows for sure is the saluter.

[–]imnotagoodnamer 89ポイント90ポイント  (16子コメント)

The story ist this:
The city where this happened has very right wing tendencies and many racist inhabitants (neonazis and plain dumb racist fools). The refugee camp in the city gets threatened regularly. People from several bigger cities came to protest against racisim and hatred and to protect a little (!) festivity of the refugees in public space.

Now: The guy did this to mock the left wing protestors and show that he doesn't want the foreigners in his town.

Source: Been there, seen it.

[–]noxlius 45ポイント46ポイント  (19子コメント)

there was a small demonstration there in the area, so prob police were watching out.

[–]mealzer 489ポイント490ポイント  (14子コメント)

Did anyone else think the guy on the left was a child at first because of his haircut? I didn't even realize he was an adult until I looked at the second picture.

In my opinion the wrong man was arrested... That haircut is the real crime here.

[–]cloveronover 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I thought it was the guy's wife. I stand corrected—and may need corrective lenses. Still a terrible haircut for man, woman, or beast.

[–]Zitronensalat 19ポイント20ポイント  (1子コメント)

We don't do that anymore.

The new hand sign is far more superior and subtle!

And you can't even wank while doing it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkel-Raute

Or while seeing it.

[–]Tiopeine 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

I honestly wish something like this could happen in Spain. We were in a dictatorship for 40 fucking years but we still have statues, streets and squares named after Franco's generals. Hell, the government even refuses to invest money in investigating the hundreds of bodies found in mass graves.

[–]I_Burned_The_Lasagna 130ポイント131ポイント  (43子コメント)

So this happened in Freital, Germany. A retiree did the hitler salute to a group of protesters against refugees to show his support.

He didn't notice the Police man behind him and he immediately stopped him. Now the hitler salute is strictly forbidden in Germany and he could now be facing 3 years of jail time.

His charge is called "Verwenden von Kennzeichen verfassungswidriger Organisationen" which roughly translates to use of signs of unconstituional organisations.

According to /u/frailty over here.

[–]emp_starslayer_09 35ポイント36ポイント  (24子コメント)

nsdap in saxony. who, who could have predicted this?

[–]alekzander01 21ポイント22ポイント  (22子コメント)

Serious question: why are the ex communist states (as in within a country state, not whole countries) have so much more Neo nazis? Wouldn't the communists have stomped them out (Repeatedly)?

[–]originalpoopinbutt 67ポイント68ポイント  (8子コメント)

Two main reasons:

  1. Former East Germany has some economic problems that former West Germany doesn't. Poverty often leads to racism and xenophobia.

  2. Denazification was more intensive in West Germany. West Germany was considered the legal successor government to Nazi Germany, and the Western Allies had an intense campaign of guilt and denazification for the German population. In 1945 there were signs posted all around with graphic photos of concentration camp victims and they said "These atrocities: YOUR FAULT!" East Germany on the other hand came to consider themselves communists, natural enemies of the fascists, and didn't internalize the shame of Nazism like the West Germans did. The Soviets also spent less time and effort trying to suppress former Nazi elements. So sometimes young disaffected East German youth didn't see neo-Nazism as being unthinkable the way West German youth might have.

[–]angryeconomist 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sorry but 2 is just wrong. Even if the denazification was far from perfect in east Germany there were far less (Ex-)Nazis in power positions than in west Germany. Also the Oktoberfest bombing and everything around it showed that Nazis are a problem for whole Germany.

But yeah as always Nazis are the strongest in regions with high unemployment and few migrants.

[–]coolsubmission 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

True for the first reason. The second one is wrong. The soviets did more to denazification after the war. However in the coming decades there was no liberalization (68er) and neonazis weren't outed. The inofficial doctrine was "we are the communists, there is no possibilities that we have fascist groups or xenophobic groups in our country. That is only the case in the FRD" hence they didn't do enough against them. Casual racism was widespread in the GDR.

The Soviets also spent less time and effort trying to suppress former Nazi element

West Germany had the architect of the Nuremberg laws as Chancellery Minister and personal advisor to the chancellor. That's basically chief of staff and responsible for the intelligence agencies. They covered up for Eichmann(Architect of the Holocaust) after the war. The west german intelligence, BND, was founded by Nazis. etc.. denazification was laughable in west germany right after the war. There were cases were leftists/roma/homosexuals were trialed and sent to prison by the same judges that sent them to prison during the Nazi regime.

[–]ndorinha 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

lack of orientation, education, perspectives, jobs - especially for the youth - made it easy for the right wing groups to get a foothold in Eastern Germany's political vacuum left behind after the fall of Socialism. It's an imported problem.

[–]likwitsnake 2754ポイント2755ポイント  (1401子コメント)

[–]dog_in_the_vent 232ポイント233ポイント  (53子コメント)

The Hitler salute is not a symbol of German pride.

[–]Comharder 134ポイント135ポイント  (34子コメント)

Exactly.

The comments in this thread baffle me.

Americans explaining what germans should/shouldn't be proud of...

[–]Egozid 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I like that comic, but in this context it makes me fucking angry.

[–]l0calher0 44ポイント45ポイント  (7子コメント)

I like the mini confederate flags on America.

[–]careless_sux 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

flags

Just one confederate flag.

The other is a Texas flag wearing a cowboy hat waving a Texas flag.

[–]Colonel_Bad_Touch 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

The smaller one is Texas.

[–]goatcoat 1359ポイント1360ポイント  (1116子コメント)

The context lower down is that the guy actually was giving the Nazi salute to a group of protesters he was trying to anger. Nevertheless, I believe in freedom of speech--not the freedom granted to people in the US by the US constitution, but the inalienable human right that inspired people to write the first amendment in the first place. He should be able to give his shitty salute all day long.

[–]flippersforducks 43ポイント44ポイント  (5子コメント)

Ironically, one of the critiques of the bill of rights by Federalists in the period of time when the Constitution was being written was that there was no need to enumerate the specific inalienable rights that the government had no right to infringe upon, e.g. freedom of speech, because it was implicit in the fact that the Constitution creates a government of limited powers, with all remaining authority left with the state and the people from whom that authority is derived.

In other words, the freedom of speech in the constitution is the same as the inalienable human right.

[–]SirMildredPierce 320ポイント321ポイント  (157子コメント)

I believe in freedom of speech--not the freedom granted to people in the US by the US constitution, but the inalienable human right that inspired people to write the first amendment in the first place.

You'll be happy to know that those guys who wrote the first amendment agree with you. The amendment doesn't grant rights, and it certainly doesn't grant them to just Americans. It prevents the government from restricting those rights. The language is very clear on that. It is very obvious, when you read those amendments, that they believed that the rights came from somewhere else other than just a document.

[–]Frog_Todd 206ポイント207ポイント  (142子コメント)

I wish more people understood this. The government doesn't grant rights, it recognizes the rights we have simply because we are human.

[–]PleaseBmoreCharming 112ポイント113ポイント  (25子コメント)

Yeah, that's the "inalienable human right" part that people tend to misinterpret.

[–]spamtripwire 85ポイント86ポイント  (15子コメント)

Kind of wish he has underlined "self-evident."

"... hold these truths to be FUCKING OBVIOUS..."

[–]drinkonlyscotch 35ポイント36ポイント  (1子コメント)

the freedom granted to people in the US by the US constitution

The constitution doesn't grant freedom — it prohibits the state from intruding upon it.

[–]albacore_futures 153ポイント154ポイント  (171子コメント)

Germany's interpretation of "free speech" is not as black and white as the US's. It is not an end unto itself, as we see it here, but is instead a priority to be balanced against other priorities, and for good reason.

I am not German, but I do know many Germans, and from what I have learned there seems to be a collective consciousness - unique, as far as a I can tell, of any country that has committed genocide - that the German people are capable of atrocities, as evidenced by the two world wars and the holocaust. The logic continues that Germany, the entire country, needs to be cognizant of this dark demon hiding in its closet that can come out, because only by knowing that this thing exists there can they seek to restrain it. The best way to restrain that demon is to restrain German expansionism via multilateralism and the EU, abandoning the German empire, and suppressing things like Nazism and Aryanism and other things which give that demon free access to their society.

I will add that the German emphasis on shackling itself so that it can't commit more evil is extremely influential in their support for the EU post-WWII. Their enthusiasm for the entire EU project is not economics, but is instead politics (or, at least, used to be). Only by participating as part of an EU coalition can Germany now pursue foreign policy goals without being judged as Nazi imperialists (Greek protest posters withstanding). Don't forget that the basis of the EU was a steel-sharing agreement between Germany and France, an agreement intended to assuage the fears of warmongers in both countries about a "steel race" that might lead to strategic imbalance inside Europe. A very, very large influence on why the EU exists at all is Germany's fear that it might conquer Europe again. Numerous German politicians have been unequivocal in that argument. Germany's demon needs containing.

Given that context, America's emphasis on free speech as a universal doesn't really make sense. Free speech, if freely allowed in Germany, gives the German demon the freedom to come out. Germany's overarching goal is to suppress that demon, and if that means suppressing the freedom of speech of a few neo-nazi idiots, then pragmatism wins and they don't give a fuck. The bigger priority wins.

I do not think we can blame them for that line of reasoning. America's logic is not universally applicable to every circumstance.

[–]candykoala 25ポイント26ポイント  (12子コメント)

Germany's demon needs containing.

it is quite naive to believe that only a few countries are capable of a genocide. i strongly believe that in every Country there are parties willing to spread enough hate to provoke a genocide. e.g. ruanda, bosnia...

[–]dabigmanating 70ポイント71ポイント  (39子コメント)

I think we're seeing a lot of blinkered and bull headed people screaming 'BUT FREE SPEECH BRUH' whilst not understanding the intricacies of the situation, and the fact that free speech must have caveats. One example I always use is if you're in a theatre it is illegal to shout fire as that causes untold and unnecessary drama.

These hate groups target the young and the vulnerable in society, people who are easily influenced and persuaded, who are downtrodden. Look at the KKK, white power movements, 5 percenters and radical Islam they all target the same type of people and IMO should be banned. They are toxic ideologies that in times of economic hardship can manipulate and warp the minds of otherwise law abiding citizens.

[–]Bickus 9ポイント10ポイント  (7子コメント)

I think the US and Germany can deal with respective demons as each sees fit.

[–]linesreadlines[S] 1117ポイント1118ポイント  (366子コメント)

Yes, one of the worst things about modern liberal society is the thoughcrime mentality...even here on Reddit

[USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST]

[–]NoblePineapples 314ポイント315ポイント  (54子コメント)

Soo.. lynch the mods?

[–]safariG 217ポイント218ポイント  (44子コメント)

So...blame Ellen Pao/admins too?

Edit: and Obama

[–]everythingisarepost 44ポイント45ポイント  (74子コメント)

I am so fucking curious to know what happened. I even attempted to ask why through a post but obviously it didn't have a year on it so it was taken down. Idk man. Documentaries has gone to shit.

[–]DaHolk 22ポイント23ポイント  (2子コメント)

If your body has made a move, it's not a thought crime any more.

I really don't get why people keep confusing what a "thought crime" is. It's not illegal to THINK anything about the third Reich nor Hitler.

You don't get sanctioned for what you think. You get sanctioned for what you do.

[–]cc81 233ポイント234ポイント  (145子コメント)

I think entitlement is a bigger problem with modern society. People think that the world not only need to hear what they say but that they have the right to say those things on other peoples platform. It is like whining that you cannot talk about fishing on a hockey forum.

Create your own forum.

[–]Mazon_Del 139ポイント140ポイント  (87子コメント)

My social group is currently dealing with a guy that read some book about spreading awareness of social problems. It basically says that people won't pay attention, so you need to force them to. Any public place (IE: Any location that isn't invite only) can and SHOULD be used at every opportunity to make people converse about these issues so that we can finally talk about them and fix them. If anybody (such as a moderator....or the person running a kickstarter that has nothing to do with your issue) tries to stop you, they are literally as bad as Hitler and should be treated as such.

So basically he's showing up to all of our standard social events (gaming on Thursdays, movies on Tuesdays, etc) and trying to make people talk about a variety of topics, such as "We should ban Kickstarter because they allowed someone who made material harmful to sex workers to have a Kickstarter, and thus they condone and endorse such actions!", etc etc. When you say "Steve (not his name), we are playing a game of Battlestar Galactica, this is not the time or place for this conversation." he goes ballistic.

It is not going terribly well.

[–]You-Are-Really-Dumb 254ポイント255ポイント  (3子コメント)

Maybe he's just mad that you call him Steve instead of his real name.

[–]Wonderingperson 28ポイント29ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well, he sounds like a social reject, don't get me wrong i'm trying to say this in the nicest way, but tell him to fuck off if he's doing this.

[–]IcarusDrake 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Damn kids these days don't understand the power of a well placed telling them to fuck off

[–]paper_liger 18ポイント19ポイント  (4子コメント)

If he wants to act childishly give him a time out. Tell him the next time he starts spouting non sequiters he gets a week off from your social gatherings. Escalate the punishment.

Social gatherings aren't just forums for debate, they have actual functions, and if he tries to continue to subvert time you've set aside for socializing or relaxation or leisure he's no helping anyone, he's putting his own will above the groups, and the group should take steps.

Long story short, it's not your lack of concern for social issues, it's his selfishness that is the problem.

[–]sterreg 81ポイント82ポイント  (40子コメント)

Honestly, why the hell do y'all keep inviting him? Tell him he's being an annoying cunt, and that he's not welcome until he stops trying to hijack y'all's get togethers for his own bullshit.

[–]Mazon_Del 54ポイント55ポイント  (37子コメント)

It's not a closed event. It is held in a public space at the college and in an unreservable area (but public, as we like walk-ins), meaning we have no authority to have campus police remove him unless he actually begins doing things that break the rules of the area.

As far as the rest of it, we pretty much have been. What is the most annoying thing about the whole bullshit is he's recently said "I've tried the whole facebook, G+, etc setup. No reposts, no +1s, nothing. Since my damn friends have failed me, I have to go to the friends of my friends." And so he's started trying to find people we are connected to on social sites to start throwing info at.

Some have been considering going through the school harassment reporting process.

[–]Azzmo 60ポイント61ポイント  (11子コメント)

"Steve. Look. We're all very aware that you read a book and believe in the message but none of us do. And we won't. We're here to have fun and enjoy our lives. It's awesome that you're passionate about making the world a better place, but what you're actually doing is making it worse for all of us. We're here to have fun together and forget our troubles for a while. We're making the world a better place through happiness and what you've been doing is making us not want you around anymore."

Drop that on him.

[–]TheTrueFlexKavana 40ポイント41ポイント  (41子コメント)

Your post inspired me to further research German nationalism and when I googled it I found this image.

It only goes up to 1850, but I'm excited to see what the future holds for German nationalism!

[–]DeltaBlack 42ポイント43ポイント  (33子コメント)

Germany is the youngest of the more powerful nations in Europe.

At the beginning of the 20th century, the major powers in Europe were Austria, Great Britain, France, Italy, Russia and Germany, Most of them had been existing in similar forms for a few centuries, while Germany was "just" about 150-170 30 years old.

If you go by the earliest roots, then there are still a couple of centuries difference.

Germany is actually younger than the US as a concept.

EDIT: Correction about the age as /u/willmaster123 correctly pointed out my mistake.

[–]PM_Tits_Ladies 55ポイント56ポイント  (12子コメント)

Well the concept of a German state has been around since at least medieval times, since there have been German peoples for a long time but there was never a centralized government to rule over the German people (The Holy Roman Empire was the closest).

[–]donquixote235 115ポイント116ポイント  (17子コメント)

Prior to WW2 this is how US children would salute the flag. Needless to say it went out of vogue...

[–]Syl0s 19ポイント20ポイント  (6子コメント)

Yeah, Nazis took a load of harmless nonsense and put them into a new horrible context.

[–]Involution88 31ポイント32ポイント  (1子コメント)

It also used to be the Olympic salute. There are some old photos in which the British Royal family perform the Olympic salute. Conspiracy theorists go nuts when they see them.

[–]jessesomething 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is that why those photos of the Queen giving a salute seemed unusual?

[–]Omega_Hertz 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

Guy on the far right giving zero fucks.

[–]thekarateguy 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Guy in uniform is all like, "Knock that shit off, everybody has only just stopped calling us Nazis"

[–]ColumbusII 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

The cop looks so.. dissapointed in that man.

[–]GregEdge 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

The real problem is that dude is still rocking a bowl cut 20 years later.

[–]ForgettableUsername 143ポイント144ポイント  (63子コメント)

"Zeig Hei--"

"No. You shouldn't do that."

[–]lapray1 35ポイント36ポイント  (1子コメント)

"We don't do that anymore."

[–]falmunction 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

And we don't. This shit will get you shunned and harrassed if you do it in public. And rightly so.

[–]TheGodOfPegana 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

The real crime here is the other guy's haircut.

[–]DrDemenz 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sir? Sir! We don't do that anymore.

[–]sgt_bad_phart 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

From what I hear, Germany takes that holocaust and Nazi business very seriously. I think you can be arrested just for displaying swastikas.

[–]Metaphoricalsimile 540ポイント541ポイント  (253子コメント)

I feel like I'm the only person here who has absolutely no fucking problem with Germany prohibiting Nazi salutes/iconography/speech/etc.

Like, holy shit yeah if you murder 12 million people maybe you shouldn't get to promote that ideology in the civilized world any more.

Edit:

No, it's not just a hand gesture. These arguments remind me of when I used to work with sex-offending teenagers. One time I had two boys sitting on a couch with each other. Both of these boys had raped little kids in the past. They weren't 17-year-olds with a 15-year-old girlfriend, or they didn't get caught pissing in public, or any of the other lies that sex offenders tell to justify their criminal record, they'd straight-up raped a defenseless little kid.

Now, they weren't just sitting on the couch with each other. They were sitting super close, so that they were making a lot of physical contact, and they had a broom that they were pretending to fellate, as a "joke."

I told them to knock it off, and of course they argued "It's just a joke, it doesn't mean anything, actually you're the pervert for thinking it means something," etc. As teens in a sex offense rehabilitation program they did not have the right to make sexual jokes with one another. Yes, I was violating their "free speech," but I was doing it in the context of the terrible things they'd done in the past. I was completely justified in doing so.

[–]alekzander01 196ポイント197ポイント  (21子コメント)

Don't forget the whole thing where Nazis totally suppressed any freedom of speech after abusing it to get to power.

But the moment they get kicked off their high chair they try and act like they are the free speech supporters and have the moral high ground....

[–]helpful_hank 89ポイント90ポイント  (16子コメント)

Also don't forget there are people still alive whose families were murdered by the Nazis. It's not like there are ex-slaves walking around in America.

[–]Thaddel 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Quote by Goebbels in 1935 on the matter:

"Wenn unsere Gegner sagen: ›Ja, wir haben Euch doch früher die [...] Freiheit der Meinung zugebilligt.‹ Ja, Ihr uns! Das ist doch kein Beweis, daß wir das Euch auch tuen sollen! [...] Daß Ihr das uns gegeben habt, das ist ja ein Beweis, wie dumm Ihr seid!"


When our enemies tell us: 'But, we used to grant you Freedom of Opinion back in the day as well!' Yes, you to us! But that does not mean that we should grant it to you as well! [...] That you granted it to us only shows how dumb you are!

[–]BalmungSama 88ポイント89ポイント  (29子コメント)

Same.

Germany is doing an amazing job at recovering from their dark history. In 70 years they've become one of the most well-liked countries in Europe. They didn't go from genocidal maniacs out to conquer the planet and cleanse it of "inferior races" to what they are now by just sitting back and letting things progress naturally. They're doing their damnedest to recover, and it's succeeding.

[–]isikorsky 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

My (American) child went to a German elementary school. First day she raised her hand to ask a question, the entire class gasped. The teacher (who was the principal & only English speaker) explained to her that raising her hand straight out (American Style) to ask a question is not acceptable. She must only raise two fingers. This was in Bavaria - in 2008.

[–]TorontoAnnex 58ポイント59ポイント  (10子コメント)

There are my friends Ezekiel and Kyle

Zeek , Kyle !! Zeek , Kyle !!

[–]margenfeld 113ポイント114ポイント  (39子コメント)

This picture makes me proud being a german actually. The officer handled the situation absolutely right. This is my country!