全 16 件のコメント

[–]to_the_buttcave 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think it's worth talking about when they occur, but I doubt discussions made sans the context of a recent event would be particularly productive since there are so many intersectional and circumstantial motivations behind such an accusation.

False rape accusations have been used as justifications for executing innocent black men, for example, but that doesn't lead to every false rape accusation being made for racist reasons, nor does it necessarily justify the scrutinizing of a victim who makes a rape allegation where the accused perpetrator is of another race (such as what happened with many of the victims of Cosby).

[–]Dewey_Darl[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think this is a great point that could be applied broadly to many issues. Talking about single anecdotes doesn't necessarily do or mean anything.

[–]MuhamedBesic 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think that false rape accusations are a double-edged sword. On one hand, these accusations can ruin men's lives, especially in universities where they are typically kicked out without due process. These accusations also make it so that disgusting people will accuse the victims of lying without any evidence. On the other hand, the fact that people are now aware of these accusations has made due process in courts of law much more pronounced. Instead of assuming that every man accused is in fact guilty, he is allowed to prove his innocence. Because of this, real rapists are being put away much more frequently, and those who were falsely accused now can prove heir innocence.

[–]Dewey_Darl[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

On the other hand, the fact that people are now aware of these accusations has made due process in courts of law much more pronounced. Instead of assuming that every man accused is in fact guilty, he is allowed to prove his innocence.

I'm not sure I agree with this. There's a long history of false rape paranoia in America, tied in with civil rights. I think if anything, people of the past were more worried about false accusations, and treated victims with even more undue skepticism, than they do today. Considering the alarmingly low rates of conviction for rape accusations, I'm not sure there was ever a time when every accused man was considered guilty.

[–]alcockell [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

False rape accusations have also been used as a blackmail tool...

[–]saint2e 3ポイント4ポイント  (8子コメント)

I think one of the misconceptions you've shown above is this notion that "innocent until proven guilty" is prioritizing false accusations over rape.

Assuming "innocent until proven guilty" is prioritizing due process. Just because a crime is more common than another crime, doesn't mean we change the core tenet of our judicial system to crack down more on that.

Drug use/sales is way more common than murder, and our eagerness to imprison people more for drug use is what has caused our current prison overpopulation, for example.

To some people, loosening the preponderance of evidence to get more rapists off the street is more important than increasing the potential of innocent people being imprisoned for crimes they didn't commit.

To others, they would rather limit the amount of innocent people incarcerated at all costs. Factor in the fact that in the case of rape, you get branded a sex offender making your employment after your jail sentence increasingly difficult, and it's essentially your life being ruined.

The thing is, there's nobody calling for "increased preponderance of evidence" to convict people, but there are people calling for decreasing it. And that doesn't sit well with a LOT of people, especially within the context of rape given the factors above.

So you're not a terrible person who lacks empathy, you just have different priorities, and want to improve the situation in a way that others feel is very short-sighted and goes against the core tenet of our judicial system.

[–]Dewey_Darl[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

I think one of the misconceptions you've shown above is this notion that "innocent until proven guilty" is prioritizing false accusations over rape.

Hm, I'm not really sure where you're getting this. I even explicitly stated that I support the concept of innocent until proven guilty. In fact, I think the rape kit backlog is bad for people falsely accused, too. The evidence in those kits could exonerate them.

I think I was a bit unclear. I'm not calling for any changes to the justice system here (besides the processing of those rape kits). I'm talking strictly about our priorities as a community, and what we chose to discuss and focus our energies on. I think we, as a community, should embrace the concept of innocent until proven guilty, but not to the extent that the cops need to. If a man makes a post about getting raped, it' not our job to poke holes in his story. I wouldn't see anything wrong with listening to his story, and believing what he tells us for the sake of discussion.

Edit: As an aside.

they would rather limit the amount of innocent people incarcerated at all costs

I think this line of thinking is very misguided. If we truly want to prevent the incarceration of innocents "at all costs", then we shouldn't incarcerate anyone. That's the only way to ensure that no innocent person is incarcerated, but I think most people would agree that the cost is too high. I totally support the idea that it's better that ten guilty people go free than one innocent person be imprisoned. But I think you have to draw the line on that concept somewhere. Is it better that a million guilty people go free than one innocent person be imprisoned? Innocent's being convicted is an unfortunate but inevitable reality of a justice system that can't be perfect. We should absolutely do everything we can to mitigate the frequency of this happening, including at the expense of letting the guilty go free. But the only way to stop it completely would be to not convict anyone at all.

[–]saint2e [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

I think the last part of your post is probably where I get that impression.

If a man makes a post about getting raped, it' not our job to poke holes in his story. I wouldn't see anything wrong with listening to his story, and believing what he tells us for the sake of discussion.

This is the "Listen and Believe" mantra that I just can't get behind, and maybe I'm a horrible person for it. Unfortunately we live in a age where you don't need to be prosecuted to have your life ruined by an accusation. There's a reason why the media has to put "alleged" in front of people who are being accused, and that is because people do make stuff up.

Unfortunately I personally know of cases where someone has straight up made accusations about someone and spread them around via gossip, and they have been ostracized and physically harmed as a result of them.

Expand that out to going to the media and suddenly it's not a circle of friends that are ostracizing you, it's an entire community, possibly a country, or even the world.

This doesn't happen as much now that I'm older, but given my background with people making shit up, when Person Z comes up to me and say "Person X did this to Person Y!", I am instantly suspicious, especially if I have any familiarity with Person X.

It's a bit different if it's Person Y, obviously, but even then in the back of my mind I think "This must be some misunderstanding" if I still know Person X with some familiarity and it seems outlandish that they would do something..

Maybe I'm a horrible person for having this thought process, but given my history with situations like these, I have my reasons for doing so.

[–]Dewey_Darl[S] [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

The last part of my post, or of my comment?

I don't think you're a horrible person at all. We're all informed by our personal experiences. Personally, I'm a fan of listen an believe, as it applies to individuals and not law enforcement. If someone comes to me saying "I was just mugged" or "I was raped", I don't see any good that can come of being skeptical. I don't see it as my job to be a detective and question their story. Maybe I'm too cushy of a person, but rape victims not being believed by family and friends is a major contributor to their trauma. For me it seems like common sense that you support your loved ones.

[–]saint2e [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Yeah I think that's perhaps the difference in the scenarios we're talking about. In mine, I know Person X, whereas it seems you're coming from a context where it's JUST Person Y, and Person X is just some person who did Y wrong.

[–]Dewey_Darl[S] [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I've wondered about that scenario a lot. What if one of my friends accuses another of my friends of rape? Statistically, they're probably not lying, but wouldn't I have to assume my friend is innocent until proven guilty? It's a situation that I'm lucky to have never been in, and I don't think there's a simple answer to it.

[–]saint2e [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Whereas I've been in that situation myself, which would explain a different outlook between the two of us on situations like that.

I guess, long story short, different people, different backgrounds, different opinions on specific scenarios.

[–]Dewey_Darl[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Yes, well put. I try my best to base my opinions off of data and not anecdotal evidence, but it's impossible to not be biased by your life experiences. Something we could probably find common ground on is improving forensic methods. If we had better methods of gathering evidence for rape, it would make it easier to differentiate between rapes and false accusations.

[–]saint2e [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I think better rape statistics are something that everyone can benefit from as I feel that the current ones are there are largely incomplete and unreliable, and yet we base a lot of our decisions on the data.

[–]TheoremaEgregium [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

That being said, I don't think false rape accusations should be a focus of this sub.

I agree, if only because it is nothing we can do anything about.

As to the number of cases, there are two ways of looking at it. Without citing exact numbers, we all know that only a small percentage of rape prosecutions end in a conviction and that a much smaller number ends in a conviction of the original accuser for false accusation. That are the facts.

So we can either claim that every accusation that cannot be proven is a false accusation, or we can claim that an accusation is only false when proven to be so. In reality in most cases we can't prove either way, and it is not particularly intellectually honest to use it for some agenda. Each scenario presumes guilt for one party but presumes innocence for the other. From that perspective the oft-repeated statement "90% of all rapists never get convicted" is exactly as bad as "90% of all rape accusations are false" (and as unprovable). We'd have to say that neither is A a rapist but nor is B a false accuser. This sounds almost like doublethink, and troubles our Platonist mode of thinking. Best to stay out of that conundrum altogether.

[–]Dewey_Darl[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I agree with you. I think the default assumption for rape accusations, from the point of view of law enforcement, should be agnostic. We don't know if a rape happened, we don't know if it's a false accusation. I think prosecuting rape accusers who don't get a conviction is incredibly antithetical to the idea of innocent until proven guilty, and ironically enough it's something I've seen MRAs support or more than one occasion. Rape is a crime that often creates little evidence. Prosecuting accusers who don't get a conviction would mean prosecuting people who are raped but who don't have enough evidence to prove it, which is most rape victims.