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Would it be offensive... (self.Norse)

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[–]firstroundko108 13ポイント14ポイント  (61子コメント)

I am an English teacher, and I wear mine because of my love of Norse literature (I teach a couple sagas) and my heritage.

To be honest, Asatru is kind of a joke. I was recently communicating with the chair of the archeology department at the University of Uppsala, Sweden, and he told me that no one takes Asatru seriously in academia in Scandinavia. According to him, about 95% of Asatru is completely made up. Hardly any of it is based on real evidence of Viking practices via artifacts or literature. Figuring he's pretty much the "top dog" of modern Viking digs, I'll take his word for it.

Wear you hammer proudly!

Edit: I'm sorry to all of the Asatru practitioners, but if one of the world's leading experts on Viking history and culture thinks Asatru is a joke, then it probably is. If anything, /r/Norse should be a place where we can be honest about that. I'm tired of running into these people at PaganFest with their mjolnirs who claim to be Asatru but haven't read a single saga, either of the eddas, let alone a scholarly article on Viking excavations that could easily inform them of the accuracy of their attempt to follow the original way of the Viking people. If there truly was enough academic knowledge out there to reconstruct an accurate system of belief and way of life, I'd be the first one to do it, but as of now, there isn't.

[–]SgtSuccessful 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wearing hammer is just fine and not at all offensive. I mean, you don't have to be Christian to wear a cross, it can be a fashion statement or something.

But calling someones beliefs a joke is quite offensive and disrespectful. Believing in the Æsir and Vanir is no different than believing in any other god/s.

[–]NexusChummer 9ポイント10ポイント  (8子コメント)

Religions need "evidences" now? All religions are "made up". That's no reason to call them a joke imo, especially when the people don't hurt anyone or force their beliefs on others.

[–]tanketom 10ポイント11ポイント  (7子コメント)

Well, he's not wrong.

A few Åsatru branches are more about reconstruction and collection of the old beliefs, some use it as a funnel for tribalistic xenophobia (and yes, even violence), but for most it's neo-paganistic like Wicca – non-dogmatic, a bit vague, and mainly as a counter-culture against Judeo-Christianity. Basically less than 100 years old.

I wouldn't call it a joke, but the main branches are hardly anything like the little we know of the extremely non-centralized religions of the Vikings, and it's weird to state otherwise.

[–]NexusChummer 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think the national-socialistic "pagan" uses runes etc. not so much as a sign of religion and more because the SS did it. As a political statement and not a religious expression.
And I didn't said it wouldn't be a new religion. Sure, reconstruction is an interesting thing, but I never met or even heard of a pagan who claimed that "the viking dudes did it 100% like this". This is why it's also called Neopaganism. The Norse religion was very vague, non-centralized and probably changed even from generation to generation a bit. Neo-paganism is basically in the same situation.
And it's definitely not just a counter-culture against Christianity. My experience is from the german scene, but here are at least as much pagans who wanted a nature-based religion in reaction to unsatisfying Atheism / Capitalism / Dogmatism in general / Technocratism etc. As an antipole or a calm anchor against the fast modern life. The priorities could be different in the US or in Scandinavia, though.

[–]tanketom 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, the SS has a lot to do with it, of course. Thule Society and all that. The subreddit motto of "Heil ok sæl!" is actually a bit jarring to a lot of Norwegians, because that's what the Quisling party tried to use as the local version of "Sieg heil!" here when we were occupied during the World War II.

But I do wanna say that the early recreating and highlighting Norse "ideals" in Norway (and Scandinavia) started even before World War I – although not as much in terms of religion, more as ethics and romantic nationalism.

I might have gotten lost in translation, but I meant Judeo-Christianity as in an ethical value view, not Christianity as a religion in its own, so I agree with it being a counter against "capitalist Western world". But again, basically the same as Wicca – new-age but with a taste of Norse instead of Gaelic.

It might be slightly different to Germany, but there's absolutely a movement in the Scandinavian countries – albeit very small – to recreate it as closely as possible. They're called "rekonstriksjonistisk" here, but I can't seem to find a good translation of the term.

Quick edit: Vigrid is one Norwegian group who flirt heavily with Åsatru/Wotanism/Odinism, and is widely regarded as neo-nazi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigrid_(Norway), but the largest sanctioned Åsatru organizations are Bifrost and Forn Sed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism_in_Scandinavia#Norway

[–]Thorsmadr 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

A few Åsatru branches are more about reconstruction and collection of the old beliefs, some use it as a funnel for tribalistic xenophobia (and yes, even violence)

All religions have adherents that warp and distort the beliefs for some purpose. There's no reason Heathenry should be immune. There are nutters all over the planet.

[–]tanketom 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Did I say there wasn't?

[–]Thorsmadr 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Easy cowboy, I was agreeing with you.

[–]tanketom 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I didn't mean to come off as cross, I just thought it was implicit already.

[–]TPK_MastaTOHO 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

wearing a Mjolnir no matter what you believe isn't inherently offensive, disparaging someone's religion is highly offensive. Dick.

[–]aleglad 2ポイント3ポイント  (25子コメント)

Normally, I try to leave Heathen religion out of this forum but since we are getting shit-talked by an outsider who clearly hasn't bothered to do any research, I guess it's time to chime in.

I am an English teacher

So, this makes you qualified to speak on new religious movements? I didn't realize that an a degree in English education also came with a doctorate in theology. I figured it was only for bad writers who couldn't actually get published. You learn something new every day.

I was recently communicating with the chair of the archeology department at the University of Uppsala, Sweden, and he told me that no one takes Asatru seriously in academia in Scandinavia.

Well, obviously that education didn't come with an understanding of logical fallacies, an appeal to authority in this case.

According to him, about 95% of Asatru is completely made up. Hardly any of it is based on real evidence of Viking practices via artifacts or literature.

Alright, let's actually get into the meat of your rather rude statement, shall we?

As proud as I am if my Swedish heritage, I am also keenly aware of the negative attitude that many Swedes have regarding religion in a country with one of the highest percentage of people self-reporting as atheist. Should it come as any surprise that contempt for new religious movements is as common as contempt for Christianity? Secondly, academia around the world is well known for a negative bias against religion and an even greater bias against "neo-pagan" beliefs. Third, the accusation is hinged on the Viking Age, which is a small period of time and limited to a specific set of peoples and there is simply more to Heathenry than that.

However, and as much as it pains me to say this, it's not completely inaccurate criticism because there are a lot, and I mean a lot, of people doing things that have no basis in fact-based reconstructive efforts. Much of the Tribalist segment has grown up because people are looking for something more authentic. There is a great deal of variety in the Germanic pagan revival. Some of that variety, especially from the earlier years, is directly derived from Wicca and Wiccan practices and shares its syncretic and mystical focus while being fairly lax on historical accuracy. However, to focus just on that instead of the rest of what is going on is to deliberately cherry pick the examples you want to work with in order to promote your derogatory statements. Additionally, so what if that is true? We aren't living then, we are living now. More importantly, we aren't seeking your permission to exist. We don't need your paternalistic condescension to do what we want to do. You clearly labor under the same misconception that a lot of "Heathens" do, and that what we are doing is replicating the Viking Age religion or that it is little more than historical reenactment.

I should also add that just because "your friend" is a professor of archeology doesn't mean he knows shit about shit when it comes to theology or modern religious movements. The opinion of someone who lives completely in the past, rooting around in graves, and working only with broken shards of a people as if their only real value is as an object in a display case is not exactly an opinion that has any merit or value to us. Still, the opinion of a professional grave robber is worth about as much as we paid for it. That is to say, nothing.

[–]firstroundko108 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (24子コメント)

The point is that Asatru, which outsiders like OP might think is an actual accurate reconstruction of the Viking way, is indeed inaccurate, which you admit. This means OP should not feel that Asatru "owns" the mjolnir, and that OP can wear it without ridicule. Honestly, I don't really care if you are butthurt about it, and you are welcome to bash teachers and professors all you want--we love joking about the flak we get from uneducated people.

[–]aleglad -2ポイント-1ポイント  (23子コメント)

It's funny that you think my criticism of your asinine statements, and reliance on logical fallacy to support it, translates to me being uneducated. You might want to step into a dressing room because your bias is showing.

[–]firstroundko108 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (22子コメント)

Yes, I am most definitely biased toward peer-reviewed studies of Viking religion. I don't understand what point you are trying to make. Yes, I called out Asatru and your feelings got hurt. I don't care.

[–]BenningRavensWorkAct 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

Oh that's because you don't understand that there are more Germanic cultures than the pirate like sub-culture of the Norse. Hence all the "VIKINGS" you're throwing in everywhere.

[–]firstroundko108 2ポイント3ポイント  (9子コメント)

I'm very well aware of that. I teach this stuff. Actually, the point your making is nearly the entire reason why Asatru is bullshit. There never was anything close to an organized Germanic/Norse/Scandinavian/Viking religion (see how their really isn't one end-all blanket term?). It differed immensely from region to region, tribe to tribe, and neighbor to neighbor. Try reading Gods and Myths of Northern Europe by H.R. Ellis Davidson. She spends a good portion of the book explaining why it is literally impossible to accurately reconstruct a Norse religion. But beware, she's another academic authority on this stuff (this time from Cambridge).

[–]hrafnblod 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I teach this stuff. Actually, the point your making is nearly the entire reason why Asatru is bullshit. There never was anything close to an organized Germanic/Norse/Scandinavian/Viking religion (see how their really isn't one end-all blanket term?).

The fact that you're using this as a critique of Asatru/heathenry is really showing how little you've investigated the movement.

Added to the fact that you keep trying to shore up your own claimed intellectual prowess by recommending... well, basically foundational literature for heathen circles- in the majority of heathen communities I've encountered, Gods and Myths of Northern Europe is literally the first book recommended to newcomers, it's hardly some esoteric literature major's source that no lowly pagan would be familiar with. Given your similar "helpful" contextual explanations of Beowulf (the origin of which most American high school students should be aware of) or the Saga of the Volsungs (which is similarly seminal) you really come off more like someone who thinks he's a lot better read than he is.

[–]BenningRavensWorkAct 3ポイント4ポイント  (7子コメント)

Try strawmaning more. No one ever said there was an organized religion of the Norse or any of the Germanic people. Asatru is a revival of religious beliefs from that time, not a reconstruction as reconstruction is a tool not the goal. But I mean, you teach this stuff...wait, you said English Lit...so now you're a Viking studies teacher? Hey quick question, who's your authoritative figure who we should take the word of?

But beware, you still a beetch.

[–]firstroundko108 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (6子コメント)

Literature and history go hand-in-hand my friend. You cannot teach one without the other. I specifically teach Beowulf (Anglo/Saxon work about the proto-Viking peoples) and The Saga of the Volsungs (A very old Norse saga that inspired Tolkien when he wrote LOTR) . Learning about the history and culture that influenced both works truly enriches one's understanding while reading.

Thanks to my passion about Norse literature. at one time I was truly motivated as to trying to live like these ancient people did, and see if I could find myself in their gods and their ways. I was actually interested in Asatru. That is what actually started me on writing to the academic authorities around the world, reading about modern knowledge of Norse religious practices, and contacting local Asatru followers--all to see if there really was any merit to a modern Heathen religion. Unfortunately, I was quickly discouraged.

The professors that did write back to me informed me that there really is no way to recreate or revive an authentic Norse religion, and that those who attempt it, like Asatru, have to resort to filling in countless gaps by inventing material or borrowing from other religions, which of course explains why academics don't see any merit in it.

My own studies revealed that it was literally impossible to even try, as archeological records and historical documents have revealed very clearly that religious practice before and during Viking times was extremely variant from region to region, tribe to tribe, and neighbor to neighbor. One would have to pick and choose and also full in the missing links as stated above.

Now, as for meeting local Asatru practitioners, maybe my sample size was too small (I'm willing to admit that), but the Asatru practitioners I met in several different arenas (metal shows, Renaissance festivals, book stores, etc.) claimed to be "true Viking" with Amon Amarth shirts and giant mjolnirs around their necks, claiming to worship the Norse gods and live exactly as the Vikings did, all while displaying total ignorance when questioned about historical/cultural facts or Norse literature. It was extremely off-putting. I expected these people to be the above-all experts, but clearly even an amateur like me felt superior to these people when it came to simple knowledge about Norse/Germanic/Scandinavian/Viking facts. It enraged me that these idiots did not even taken the time to research what they were doing, but instead trusted the ceremony instructions they are following from the Internet or out of a book they got at Barnes and Noble in the "New Age" section. Unfortunately, I have never met an Asatru follower who was not like this. I wish my experience were different.

I have read everything I could ever get my hands on regarding Germanic/Norse/Scandinavian/Viking history, culture, art, and literature, and anyone who has done the same would feel like I did when hearing about someone worried they will offend Asatru practitioners by wearing a mjolnir.

This is why I'm a beetch.

[–]BenningRavensWorkAct 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

willing to admit that), but the Asatru practitioners I met in several different arenas (metal shows, Renaissance festivals, book stores, etc.) claimed to be "true Viking" with Amon Amarth shirts and giant mjolnirs around their necks, claiming to worship the Norse gods and live exactly as the Vikings did, all while displaying total ignorance when questioned about historical/cultural facts or Norse literature. It was extremely off-putting.

Oh dude. Bro, we know where you're coming from with that. We call that vikingtru. We disown that shit. I figured that's where you were coming from but wasn't sure.

[–]aleglad -1ポイント0ポイント  (10子コメント)

Actually, my feelings aren't impacted in the slightest way because your opinion doesn't matter at all to me. You are a rude gutter-dweller and not a person of any merit or value to me. The entire point of responding is not to respond to you but to engage a wider audience of people who may view this. Your comments are bigoted, narcissistic, and without merit. You rely on the Appeal to Authority logical fallacy as a means of validating your bigoted opinion. You are working under the false assumption that modern Heathen religion is about the Viking Age or that replicating it is at all the point. You attempt to use unrelated material in your appeal to authority, both personal and external, but neither you nor "your friend" actually hold doctorates in theology and have no background in new religious movements. Your default operation is simply invalidated because you don't know the subject you're talking about nor are you will to actually set aside your own bigoted contempt and talk to the people you'd rather ridicule. My point is that you don't know what you are talking about, you are falsely assuming a position of authority on the matter, and that you are an ass who should learn to shut up and listen.

[–]firstroundko108 -1ポイント0ポイント  (9子コメント)

You can straw man and ad hominem all you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that Asatru is mostly made-up gobbledegook and borrowed practices from other religions. Several people have already openly admitted that in here.

[–]aleglad 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

You continue to show that you don't have a grasp of logical fallacies. Do your students do this poorly as well?

[–]firstroundko108 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

Still at the ad hominem, eh? It's not working. Try something different.

[–]aleglad -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

That wasn't an ad hominem attack. You really don't know your logical fallacies, do you?

[–]marcelmiranda 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

To be honest, Asatru is kind of a joke.

Now that's just mean and entirely unecessary. :(

[–]Mr_Asshole_2u 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

To be honest, Asatru is kind of a joke.

To be fair, Sweden is too. What does it even do be sides represent a speed bump for Russia on it's way to Norway?

[–]Hrada1 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's really fucking uncalled for.
Also swedish vikings supposedly founded Russia so theres that.

[–]Mr_Asshole_2u 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

They were called the Rus, and while their is evidence that they originated from Sweden there is little to no evidence that they ever returned. I think that says something about Sweden.

[–]hrafnblod 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Edit: I'm sorry to all of the Asatru practitioners, but if one of the world's leading experts on Viking history and culture thinks Asatru is a joke, then it probably is.

Counter-argument: Get bent.

[–]foreignlander 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

THANK YOU!

[–]umuligtotre 0ポイント1ポイント  (12子コメント)

I am curious, which of these people is your friend? Surely they are on this list and can be made to account for their actions, no? http://katalog.uu.se/orginfo/?orgId=HH3

[–]firstroundko108 3ポイント4ポイント  (11子コメント)

No one from that institution did anything that they should be held accountable for. Good lord. It was a private conversation between me and a person whom I write to about further information regarding my Viking studies. If you want to bring out the pitchforks, take them to me, not the professors of that university.

Anyways, I was simply explaining to OP why Asatru shouldn't claim full rights to the mjolnir so that OP would feel comfortable wearing one. OP felt intimidated, and I tried to alleviate the fear. Thank you.

[–]umuligtotre 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

"According to him, about 95% of Asatru is completely made up. Hardly any of it is based on real evidence of Viking practices via artifacts or literature."

So, to back up this claim could you provide some evidence?

And I don't have pitchforks to bring out for you. The overwhelmingly positive response to OP is he can wear what he likes. So in short, you went out of your way to insult people, making an appeal of sorts to your "friend" who is supposedly in "Academia" to lend credibility to your claim that "Asatru is kind of a joke."

I understand you're either ignorant of your behaviour and you should be informed you're being a twat. And if not that, then you're purposely being a troll. And your Sorry-not-sorry edit means nothing, as you still insist on your previous claim based on your made up information about a made up friend.

[–]firstroundko108 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (2子コメント)

We both agree that OP can wear it if he or she wants. That's fantastic.

No, I'm not ignorant of my behavior. Yes, I tend to act quite twattish toward adults, and I know it. So what? We twats tend to cut the bullshit and live efficiently. Some people might get butthurt along the way, but it's enlightening to go through life communicating with sheer honesty rather than sugar-coating everything we say. Can you blame me?

[–]umuligtotre 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

So you think that "communicating with sheer honesty" strips you of the need to act with some form of decorum? You stated your opinion about allowing OP to wear a necklace, that you think yes they CAN and SHOULD wear it. But why the point about Asatru? Was it really needed? No, it wasn't, and I'm certain you've become aware of it.

So to be honest I can blame you. You claim to be a teacher, and you sadly influence the mind of the children or even adults you teach. You give them this terrible example to follow.

Shame on you.

[–]firstroundko108 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The point about Asatru is that OP should not feel they are an authority on who gets to wear a mjolnir. That's it, plain and simple.

[–]BenningRavensWorkAct -3ポイント-2ポイント  (6子コメント)

Anyways, I was simply explaining to OP why Asatru shouldn't claim full rights to the mjolnir so that OP would feel comfortable wearing one. OP felt intimidated, and I tried to alleviate the fear. Thank you.

When you really had no right to as he was asking the Asatruar specifically. That's why you're getting lambasted. It's like an atheist coming into conversation between someone asking a Christian about their theology all unsolicited like.

[–]firstroundko108 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

Do you think you're in /r/asatru? Ha, this is /r/norse.

[–]BenningRavensWorkAct -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

If I were to buy and wear something such as a Mjolnir pendant as I am interested in Norse history and mythology, though I am not a part of a Scandinavian culture nor part of the Asatru religion or have any other Norse related beliefs? I feel it would be like wearing a biker jacket and not being a part of a biker club. I know many people take the beliefs very seriously and wanted to know your thoughts. Thanks.

And yet he asked the guys who take these beliefs seriously. The location doesn't matter as much where the question is directed to i.e. Heathens.

Ha.

[–]firstroundko108 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Well, it's a good thing he posted in /r/norse and not /r/asatru so someone like me could let him know Asatru isn't the authority on mjolnirs, which everyone in this thread is agreeing with. OP can wear it if he or she wants. What is your point?

[–]BenningRavensWorkAct -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Hey, maybe he was ignorant and didn't realize /r/asatru existed. That's a possibility. But I mean you must have realized that was a possibility because you're a teacher right?

My point is dat u a beetch.

[–]firstroundko108 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

So because of a slight possibility that OP made a mistake, I suddenly lose my rights to free speech? Oh, hell naw. And didn't I already clarify to you that I am a beetch?

[–]BenningRavensWorkAct -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

No you didn't man. But you came in and was like "SORRY NOT SORRY YOU'RE BUTTHERT MAN JUST GIVIN MAH OPINION". I'm just pointing out it wasn't directed towards you and if you're wondering why you're getting all the shit, it's because you willing went into this without being asked. That's it.

And it's funny, because the heathens also agree that everyone can wear what they want. You came into be rude for the sake of being rude.

And you did clarify that you are in fact a beetch, I have to thank you for that.

[–]EverydaySchemer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

As someone who is Heathen and has read the eddas, sagas and studies scholarly articles it's a slap in the face for you to lump everyone into one group and say we're all the same. Sure there are plenty of people that claim to be Asatru/Heathen that I wouldn't want to be around, because they think they're modern day vikings. But by painting us all with the same brush, you're actually discouraging the people that you said you were seeking to find -- people that have taken the time to educate themselves both in the source material and the world view from that time period.

[–]Exoskelebilly -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're a joke dude. That fuckin rude.

[–]SippantheSwede -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Okay well I DON'T SEE ANY ICE GIANTS!!! :)