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On shadowbans. (self.self)

krispykrackers[A] が 投稿 - stickied post

Hello. I wanted to talk about shadowbanning, and try to answer a bunch of questions about it at once in light of recent circumstances on reddit about the topic, and try to clear up some FUD.

  • What is a shadowban?

A shadowban is the tool we currently use to ban people when they are caught breaking a rule. It causes their submitted content and user profile page to be visible only to themselves while logged in. Moderators can see their comments within their subreddit (since they can see "removed" comments in the subreddit they moderate), but no other users can see their content, and nobody else can see their userpage.

  • Why does shadowbanning even exist?

Shadowbans were the first type of ban created by reddit. It was used to ban spammers who were clogging up reddit with junk and making the user experience less enjoyable for everyone. The reason it a.) doesn't notify the user, b.) lets them continue to submit, and c.) makes it look like they're submitting normally when they're logged in and viewing their content, is because that way the spammer didn't realize he or she was banned and would simply continue to use the methods they were currently using to spam, and not try anything sneakier and therefore harder for us to detect and do anything about.

  • So why are regular users being shadowbanned?

Because it's still the only tool we have to punish people who break the rules. I can't say for sure because I wasn't here, but at some point very early on it was decided decided that we needed a code of conduct to follow to keep the reddit experience enjoyable for everyone, and the rules were born. However, no new tool to punish rule breakers separately from spammers was developed at the same time, so we had to continue to use the shadowban tool.

  • Why do you bother shadowbanning mods?

Because we treat moderators who break the rules the same as any other user. Being a moderator doesn't exempt you from reddit rules, nor does buying gold or being an advertiser.

We know that it's easy to tell when a moderator is banned because their modmail makes it quite obvious. In some ways that's actually a good thing, since their team can let them know and they can come to us to start the conversation about what they did to get banned and the process for getting unbanned (normally acknowledge that what you did was against the rules and agree to abide by them moving forward).

  • Why don't you tell people when you shadowban them?

Mostly because we never used to. If we were to begin to today, since it's not automated, it would require us to issue the ban, then individually send them a message. That means that the admin that sent the message would be required to respond to every single person who replied back via their user inbox. It's not really sustainable or scalable as it would exist now.

  • How does someone get un-shadowbanned?

They need to contact the admins and ask why they were banned. Currently they can either message the mods of /r/reddit.com or use contact@reddit.com. We have a conversation with them and once the situation is addressed and resolved, we lift the ban. Or we don't, depending on the severity and/or repetitiveness of the infringement(s).

  • That sucks. What are you going to do about it?

We know it sucks. It sucks hard. It is awful and sneaky and completely our fault that it is still being used to punish normal users.

Right now, the current situation is that we still have to use this shadowban tool that we're stuck with to punish all rule breakers the same, be them bot or be them human, spammer or active user, anything.

However, like /u/spez has mentioned during his AMA, "Real users should never be shadowbanned. Ever." And he means that. Because of decisions he's made in the past couple weeks, we're developing tools right now, for the first time in nearly a decade, for admins to better be able to punish rule breakers differently than spammers, and educate them at the same time, rather than just quietly removing their ability to visibly participate. I won't go into specifics or give any sort of timeframe other than "absolutely as fast as we can", but it's happening.

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トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]thenovamaster 34ポイント35ポイント  (20子コメント)

First off I want to say that I was recently mistakenly shadowbanned and unbanned fairly promptly after messaging the admins. They were very quick about replying to my inquiry. Thank you for that. But it does raise a couple concerns:

1. The admin that replied to me said I was part of a brigade from another site in to a subreddit. This raises a few questions such as how was I identified as someone coming in and brigading from another site? One subreddit linking to another.. I can see that being traceable. Not from another site, however.

  1. What exactly constitutes a shadowban? As a community I believe that we need a clear and conscience list of rules and their consequences. Right now we have a small list of rules (which surprsingly when I went through them and the FAQ mentioned nothing about "brigading", a term I believe needs to be clearly defined) but nothing about possible punishments.

Thank you for addressing this so quickly after the video in /r/videos popped up. It raised a lot of questions that I think redditors deserve answers to.

Edit: Thank you for those who pointed me to HTTP Refers. Question one is scratched.

[–]courtiebabe420 31ポイント32ポイント  (15子コメント)

The admin that replied to me said I was part of a brigade from another site in to a subreddit. This raises a few questions such as how was I identified as someone coming in and brigading from another site? One subreddit linking to another.. I can see that being traceable. Not from another site, however.

When a mod is told they came to reddit from Twitter and voted, there is a serious problem with how this system works. Of course someone came from Twitter. Do you know much reddit shit ends up on Twitter?

If that is a violation of the rules, a vast, vast majority of people who participate in AMAs will be shadowbanned or real banned for the same reason, and reddit's ability to grow its user base will go down the drain.

I'm just surprised that coming to reddit, from a news article you find, and already being a redditor will get you banned. That seems crazy to me.

[–]Werner__Herzog 14ポイント15ポイント  (4子コメント)

part of a brigade

is the important part here. The admins seem to differentiate between "bad" and "good" brigades. Which is why people being linked by somebody doing an AMA on their twitter won't get people banned but sending a mass of people to do ill in a comment section will. There's a difference but the lines between a bad and good brigade are blurred.

[–]courtiebabe420 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Given what I know about the ban I'm talking about, what you are counting as a "good" brigade is exactly what got them banned. I mean, I can't say for sure because I don't have the energy to comb through their Twitter account, but a few people have gotten caught up in something that wasn't even a brigade.

There's a difference but the lines between a bad and good brigade are blurred.

Harumph. I don't know how to fix it, but god dammit, it's still annoying.

[–]olympusmons 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

wasn't even a brigade.

one's gold is another's garbage

[–]thenovamaster 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

The biggest problem is that reddit hasn't even defined what a brigade consists of on their own FAQ. I was just having this discussion earlier on another sub. I assumed a brigade was a conscious effort to effect a subreddit or post. That meant for you to be part of a brigade you'd have to knowingly participating in a brigade. Another user came out and said that you can be part of a brigade without realizing it if you simply follow a link and participate at the link's destination and that most brigadiers are unknowing participants.

[–]elfa82 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

By the same token though, they also seem not only care about certain "bad" brigades. Just in the past couple days, users have used SRD to brigade posts and downvote people into the hundreds, yet there was no action taken by the admins.

The shitty part is it sets a presidence that voting and commenting in threads like that is okay, and then if the admins do take action people get upset for not knowing they could have been banned.

[–]ForceBlade 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah that's what I'm thinking. A celebrity links an AMA of theirs on twitter, followers have accounts or make new ones. They do the AMA really badly for example and people downvote the shit out of it because they either

  1. don't like it (Already registered users like us downvoting)

OR

  1. are brand new users wishing to express their dislike of content (extremely innocent voting, even though downvoting)

They, in the same situation as /u/thenovamaster are now susceptible to a shadowban for 'brigading'

Like

What the fuck level of clarity does that create.

And you're right in saying that this type of ban will literally prevent the site from growing. Because from their point of view, anyone coming from twitter and voting at all is a brigader (although brigades seem to flow more to the downvoting of something more than the up) Because you're literally killing off site traffic that comes from.. another site

And with internal cross voting such as SRD and SRS. I know it's controversial, preventing cross-subreddit voting itself is still damaging the system.

One subreddit shouldn't be banned from voting on another subreddit. Think of the subreddit's as honeycomb cells and the users as the ones that fill it with honey. You can't just tell bees which cells they can access so why do that to your own community.

It's a thing. Brigading. Its a thing that can get mixed up with normal votes on legitimate user+content situations. Reddit, being on the World Wide Web is going to get visitors from other social platforms. It's going to happen. And users from some subreddits, already here. Might go visit other subreddits. And yeah, one user might link to another subreddit and people might view it in bulks and upvote/downvote certain comments. That last one is seen as a problem by administrators but if you can see both sides to this protecting reddit vs this literally preventing reddit from working the way it's designed to, then it makes sense.

Granted. There are no actual tools on the np. links that prevent_fucking_anything np links for example can still be voted on like normal. The only thing that changes is that maybe the target subreddit has a theme/CSS-Style in place to warn users "Hey, you're here by a link that has .np in it, please don't vote" but people do anyway and we see that all the time on this site. People do it anyway.

Admins could mark threads and make it a site rule the mark cross-post threads like the ones in SRD with a special mark that "if a user comes from this link in their HTTP Referal link, then block them from voting on this subreddit or thread for 24h"

It's just a suggestion and I don't know how well it would work in real life. But just taking usage of .np links or link visiting based on last_page_visited seriously you could easily fix the problem the Admins think exist.

If you're in SRD, and click a link? reddit puts you in read-only mode on the target page for like 30 minutes or some shit.

But that's just my suggestion.

[–]thenovamaster 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I understand if a subreddit doesn't want to come under scrutiny and face downvotes for their views. That can be a perfectly legitimate concern. Subreddits are able to be set to private for that very reason. That being said, anything that's set out in public view on a public forum should be, and ought to be, open to criticism. Then again I'm a huge proponent of open and free discussion. If someone disagrees with me I welcome the chance to discuss it.

[–]ForceBlade 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I couldn't agree with you more. But personally even the idea of a subreddit breaking the system by 'putting up a shield' still just feels wrong.

Discussions that are so close minded the sub could become poisonous for normal people would arise in those conditions

[–]thenovamaster 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're right. I do believe in people's right to live in an echo chamber if they so choose, even if I don't believe it's a healthy way to live myself.

[–]thenovamaster 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

It kind of is. I can see how it would be a problem if someone goes on twitter and tells their followers, "Everyone go harass this post/subreddit/etc." But to come across a subreddit or post organically (either on or off site) and then be banned for participating.. that's a little weird.

[–]SharMarali 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Right now, the rule everyone on reddit is supposed to be following is that you should never vote or comment in a thread if you were linked there from another source.

It's extremely understandable that reddit doesn't want larger subs (or hate subs) to "invade" smaller ones and be assholes. That's basically what the rules are for. Otherwise, people might not ever talk about fringe topics, which are a big reason for reddit's popularity.

Unfortunately, people are simply not mature enough to go "Hey, maybe going to a sub I don't like and telling everyone why they suck is not the best thing I could be doing with my time right now," so they have to create rules to keep people from doing that so that discussion can be encouraged on a variety of topics.

The problem is that the rule is just too all-encompassing. Sometimes it makes sense for a user to vote or comment in a thread that was linked from another thread. Sometimes it's also a community they are a part of, but they hadn't run across the post in their front page yet. Sometimes it may be a topic they really want to add to.

Let me give you an example. I am subscribed to at least half a dozen separate subs for the A Song of Ice and Fire / Game of Thrones series (yes, I know I'm a dork, hush, I have a point to make!). Each sub is a little different, but there are loads and loads of people who frequent several of them. I'm only using this as an example. This is not a criticism of any of the mods of any of the subs in question.

Now, suppose users on one of the subs are having a lengthy and heated discussion about how much hype you should get for Cleganebowl. User Bob just read something really awesome on this topic yesterday, it had a whole bunch of links and sources and stuff (/u/BryndenBFish probably wrote it), and he thinks it would be a great addition to this discussion.

User Bob posted a link to the comment from yesterday. A bunch of people click on it. Probably 3/4 of them are already subbed to this sub as well. Most of them likely forgot that they clicked on a link to get here. It's stuff they read about all the time.

Now, I don't think the admins are really aggressively pursuing someone who posted relevant comments within a community. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot. But the point is, everyone who clicked Bob's link and subsequently commented in /u/BryndenBFish's thread is technically breaking the rule as it stands now.

tl;dr Brigading definitely needs to be defined more clearly, as right now it tends to discourage participation in multiple similar communities.

[–]courtiebabe420 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right now, the rule everyone on reddit is supposed to be following is that you should never vote or comment in a thread if you were linked there from another source.

So... even if you get there from Twitter, Facebook, CNN, DailyDot, etc.? How do you grow the user base if that's how it's supposed to be working? People are getting banned for these actions too, so it just doesn't make sense.

[–]thenovamaster 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I totally understand the rule, I just believe it's poorly written and poorly handled.

Unfortunately, people are simply not mature enough to go "Hey, maybe going to a sub I don't like and telling everyone why they suck is not the best thing I could be doing with my time right now," so they have to create rules to keep people from doing that so that discussion can be encouraged on a variety of topics.

My issue with that is that it makes it seem like reddit's official stance on their userbase is that they're all children that need constant supervision. I think the amount of people who actually engage in this type of behavior is pretty on par with the general population that "just wants to see the world burn" as it may. For example during the whole FPH removal drama the evidence of brigading (as far as downvotes go) showed maybe 1k-3k downvotes per post. I can't remember how many people were subbed to FPH but I know it was over 200k. Somwhere in the range of 1-2% of the userbase participated in that and to me that seems about right. I'm not condoning actions of these people who purposely targeted people for harassment purposes only but the numbers mimic what you'd expect to find anywhere else.

I guess my stance is that I don't really believe the rule serves it's proposed purpose of curbing harassment and instead harms the majority that would use sharing for legitimate discourse.

[–]SharMarali 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I do see your point about the limited number of people who would be involved in brigading as a form of harassment. However, in the online community, a very small number of people can create a very big hassle. How many people were responsible for The Fappening? How many 4chan users did it take to turn voting in a very popular magazine to spell out some acronym about Moot? Or to harass a 13 year old girl so much that her father famously threatened to call the cyber police on them?

The trouble is, the people who do want to watch the world burn, though there may not be many of them, are very devoted to their cause. They're happy to spend hours clicking a button or responding to comments or creating scripts to do things or look up users' personal information or whatever if it creates chaos and drama.

It wouldn't take long at all for the few to overtake reddit to the point that it was no longer a fun place to go and talk. Users would stop coming, slowly, but they'd stop. And the people who drove it to the ground would just happily move onto the next place.

[–]thenovamaster 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The trouble is, the people who do want to watch the world burn, though there may not be many of them, are very devoted to their cause.

I absolutely agree with you. This is also why creating barriers for these people only hinders legitimate use. The people we're describing aren't effected by these barriers because they're willing to transcend them for their cause regardless of the consequences. It's akin to thinking posting a sign to a building that says "this is a gunfree zone" will keep a crazed lunatic with a gun from entering and going postal. He's not going to be willing to murder people then look at the lesser crime of entering a gunfree zone and say, "Oh that's a crime? I better not."

[–]PointyOintment 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

HTTP referer?

[–]thenovamaster 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're right. For some reason that didn't come to mind.

[–]Pendulum 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

One subreddit linking to another.. I can see that being traceable. Not from another site, however.

The HTTP referrer tells reddit which site you came from when you click on a link on another site.

[–]thenovamaster 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Edited my post, thank you.

[–]ocktick 128ポイント129ポイント  (23子コメント)

We all understand what a shadowban is. We all understand that we're supposed to send you an email that won't get read in order to resolve it.

But seriously, why not for the time being, just tell us "We're going to tell our staff to stop shadowbanning non-spammers. If a staff member wants to shadowban a user, they have to notify the person they ban via PM with their account."

Would that really be a big deal? Just copy-paste a short PM whenever you shadowban somebody that isn't a spammer. You're acting like you need a research team and 20 years to develop a program to automate something that takes 2 seconds to do manually. How do you have time to manually shadowban non spammers, but don't have the time to literally send a copy-pasted PM?

[–]RankWeis 19ポイント20ポイント  (4子コメント)

Just copy-paste a short PM whenever you shadowban somebody that isn't a spammer

They address this a bit, but that would mean anyone who would issue the ban would automatically be the person in charge of dealing with the blowback, since it's tied directly to their user account, and that's where all the mail is going to go. You don't want the admins to not want to issue a ban because they'll be in charge of it, especially if they're banning a long list of people...but there's also a simple solution. Just turn a random account '/u/BannerBot2000' or whatever into an admin account, and issue all bans from there. Either have rotating shifts or require everyone to check in a couple of times a day.

[–]myheaditches 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

They wouldn't even have to make a new account, there continues to be the /u/reddit account.

Edit: and according to other posts by people more in the know than me, you can send messages via a subreddit rather than a user, so even all the messages would be aggregated into one spot and not have to deal with multiple people using the same account.

[–]Reddisaurusrekts 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

anyone who would issue the ban would automatically be the person in charge of dealing with the blowback

Yeah well, they are the person who banned the user - who else would you go to have it reversed?

[–]RankWeis 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

There's a lot of people doing a lot of things, running a lot of diagnostics and capturing a lot of data. The person who swings the hammer is just the last person on that list.

[–]Reddisaurusrekts 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

But the one most proximate to the ban, and hopefully the one with the most knowledge of WHY the user was banned.

Unless you're saying admins are just banning people on the say so of others without knowing the reason?

[–]ForceBlade 33ポイント34ポイント  (12子コメント)

Apparently they ban that many people that it is unsustainable

[–]Reddisaurusrekts 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

We have bots that send automated message. Coded by Redditors in their spare time. Why the fuck can't the actual Reddit team, who're PAID, do half as good a job?

[–]Jack41096 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

theres a good chance they dont give a shit about automated bots

[–]olympusmons 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

this is important. the scale here. admin can't do what's suggested itt. but it can build itself new tools. reddit must get smart, and i'm sure it shall. we've time.

[–]-Mikee 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

Too bad it'd take a whole 20 minutes to script two separate buttons, one labeled "spammer" and one labled "Other", where other sends a message to notify of the ban.

20 minutes in reality is 2 years for reddit, when it comes to fixing things.

[–]xiongchiamiov 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

It takes far more than 20 minutes. Part of that is due to software development always taking longer than you think it should; part of it is due to reddit the software being a ten-year-old codebase.

[–]-Mikee 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

This has nothing to do with the users, or the moderators. This is JUST the admins.

A simple browser script can add a new button that performs the task. It would take 20 minutes to code, for anyone who knew the backend (admin) interface already.

Just make the script and distribute it to the computers the admins are using to do manual shadowbans.

The whole reason it isn't yet implemented is responsibility. When you shadowban everyone, it's nothing special. When there's multiple levels, you have to take responsibility for the effort of making sure only the worst ones receive the worst response.

[–]pseudolobster 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

What I'm gathering here is that each time an admin sb's a user they'd have to message them personally, from their own account. This is a problem for a number of reasons. OP said scalability, but I'd throw in there's also concerns about only one person reading your replies, leading to a lack of accountability or lacking the perspective of other admins chipping in their two cents. There's also the fact if that admin ever leaves reddit it'd be a pain in the ass to go through their messages, etc.

Right now, as I understand it, admins can't actually send mail as /u/reddit and have the replies go into some admin ticketing system queue. It seems like they use /r/reddit.com's modmail for the task, which requires the user to send the first message. They're saying that's the state of things at the moment, and I can believe it'd be a significant amount of work to develop a solution.

[–]-Mikee 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Please direct all appeals to /r/reddit.com, replies to this message will not be read"

Solved.

Or, better yet, have automoderator do the messaging.

[–]vodenii 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I didn't get the impression that it was the notifications as much as the inevitable follow-up conversation.

[–]JediCapitalist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

We all understand that we're supposed to send you an email that won't get read in order to resolve it.

I believe this to be more or less completely false. I know of several people who have sent messages to /r/reddit.com regarding shadowbans and all got responses and most got unbanned.

Of course, in Australian time, the busyness of the inbox is probably way down because Americans are asleep, but it nevertheless goes to show they get read and dealt with.

コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

    [–]Books_4_LYFE 17ポイント18ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Practically every other website on the planet has gotten their shit together in terms of telling the user what rule they broke and them banning them, but here at reddit you act as though shadowbanning is the only way? Uhh...no. It creates a culture of mistrust just by its existence.

    [–]kdryan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This...

    [–]DaemonXI 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yeah, how about just using a goddamn ban and treating the user like a human being?

    Shadowbans are for spambots.

    [–]iEATu23 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    shadowbanning was the first and only method of banning

    reddit will never change.

    [–]allthefoxesKappa[M] 78ポイント79ポイント  (26子コメント)

    Every single time the admins use our subreddit, they never stop to say "Hey, using your subreddit to make a little post that might get a lot of attention"

    Ellen, Victoria, and now you ;_;

    [–]krispykrackers[S] 35ポイント36ポイント  (19子コメント)

    I checked the sidebar to make sure it didn't break any rules =/

    [–]GodOfAtheism 63ポイント64ポイント  (10子コメント)

    You have my explicit permission to use /r/circlejerk in the future.

    The comments will be far better, I promise.

    [–]picflute 14ポイント15ポイント  (6子コメント)

    I need more alt accounts to upvote this comment

    [–]sonnuvabitch 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

    You are now a mod at /r/shawdowbanned

    [–]justcool393 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Speaking of that, /u/GodOfAtheism should really ban the "upvote if" posts that get submitted to /r/circlejerk, since we're told that even ironically, it's not okay. I don't have the modmail now (I stepped down on that subreddit), but it's apparently not allowed.

    [–]JoyousCacophony 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    With no karma on self posts, I can't imagine the harm.

    [–]justcool393 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    A lot of them aren't.

    [–]JoyousCacophony 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    If it's not a self post, asking for upvotes is a huge no no... eeesh

    [–]GuantanaMo 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Permission to post on /r/Kreiswichs is also granted. Though the whole post will have to be in German.

    [–]gremy0 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    With every submission I whisper to myself "Hey, using your subreddit to make a little post that might get a lot of attention". I might start sharing the dream with the moderators too.

    [–]P1h3r1e3d13 20ポイント21ポイント  (2子コメント)

    /r/announcements? /r/blog?

    [–]IAMnotBRAD 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Those are defaults. They probably don't want THAT much attention.

    [–]tobiasx 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yeah, that would actually make sense.

    Like posting all of these types of thread in one single area where people can find them? Lots of people don't subscribe to /r/self

    [–]cantsingh 25ポイント26ポイント  (1子コメント)

    if only there was some way for the administrators (who run the site) and the moderators (who give it life) to communicate...

    [–]DigitalMariner 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Get out of here with that crazytalking nonsense

    [–]allthefoxesKappa[M] 21ポイント22ポイント  (1子コメント)

    mmmm~

    Well, its there for the future!

    [–]falsehood 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I think they just want warning because of the higher volume of needed mod actions.

    [–]paranoid_proxy 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Seems like there is a massive disconnect between moderators and the admins with a multitude of examples in the last month or so.

    [–]allthefoxesKappa 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    oh mate dont take me that seriously, lol

    [–]Hearthmus 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Each time you are here, sad, in the comments. I feel you, little sub not long ago, taking lots of attentions with waves like this one, they said they'd communicate more last time x) You should add it in the rules !

    Edit : I see you did add it :)

    [–]LightShadow 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    better shadowban him

    [–]alien122 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Just wait until Obama comes here! ^_^

    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

      [–]TheBananaKing 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

      Is voting from a linked thread forbidden?

      Is voting on np.reddit.com forbidden?

      If so, why do you not use those two checks to simply disable voting and commenting functionality?

      Even if only implemented in the UI it'd make an inconvenience barrier that would block 90% of the shit, and pretty much all the inadvertent rule-breaking. Actually not accepting the vote/comment backend would be even better (like you do with downvoting from user pages)

      If those things aren't against the rules, can you stop punishing people for doing it?

      Can you develop a clear and unambiguous policy on this, and advise the users of it?

      Please?

      [–]doodle77 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Is voting from a linked thread forbidden?

      Is voting on np.reddit.com forbidden?

      No, but voting because a thread was linked is forbidden. Of course, there's no way to prove intent.

      [–]TheBananaKing 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I put it to you that it's an inherently stupid rule, then.

      [–]Reddisaurusrekts 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      So they assume it for the users they want to ban.

      [–]TheScamr 20ポイント21ポイント  (22子コメント)

      I was banned, not shadowbanned, from Askreddit and the mod told me it would be a month ban. Fair enough. After a month he told me I needed to submit to him an original content drawing of a flamingo gambling in a casino.

      Is this normal? Should I be shadowbanned for circumventing that restriction?

      [–]allthefoxesKappa[M] 6ポイント7ポイント  (21子コメント)

      I generally ask for 500 word essays from people who get banned from /r/circlejerk

      Yes, evading that ban can still get you punished

      [–]Im-Probably-Lying 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

      lol. I was banned from askreddit and I had to draw a picture of a cucumber fighting (or trying to fight) a chili bean to get unbanned.

      That drawing was freaking hilarious because I am definitely NOT an artist by any means..

      I'll see if I can find it in my message history :D

      FOUND IT! hahahahaha

      https://i.imgur.com/gWiFBaA.jpg

      [–]zAnonymousz 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Beautiful. Mount it on your fridge!

      [–]vvyn 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      These types of stuff deserves its own subreddit.

      [–]alien122 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I think the navy seals copypasta clocks in over 500 words.

      [–]justcool393 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      The "I control your food" copypasta is pretty excellent as well.

      [–]llehsadam 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

      But, it depends on the subreddit and the moderators.

      What people need to understand is that every moderator is different, and we work independently of the admins or other subreddit moderators... and that the pay is not good.

      As for this question:

      Should I be shadowbanned for circumventing that restriction?

      I think the answer is no, until one of the reddit rules is broken, right? You cannot be shadow-banned for only breaking a subreddit specific rule.

      [–]allthefoxesKappa -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

      No, if you evade a subreddit ban, you can get shadowbanned. It says itself in the ban message. Thats not a subreddit rule.

      [–]llehsadam 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Hmm, that's screwed up. Hopefully the new "punishment" addresses specifically that sort of case.

      Evading a ban is definitely not in the same category of offenses as spamming or doxxing, I can see why people are upset then.

      [–]ForceBlade 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Evading a ban should get you in trouble, but getting that ban specifically from that moderator with no warnings and a ridiculous request to get Unbanned shouldn't have happened.

      And I'm just a user on this site and know that would be a 'better world' then the one that allthefoxes is backing right now.

      [–]allthefoxesKappa -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      You absolutely do not need to draw or do anything, but creating a new account to evade your ban will get you sitewide banned

      [–]damn_it_so_much 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Silly question, is there a reason for requiring a silly drawing other than it being funny?

      [–]ForceBlade -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

      You don't think that ban was ridiculous at all?

      You won't question the ban when a moderator starts swinging powertrip-bat warnings like that?

      really no need for concern in that field when a fellow moderator of like, one of your subreddits did a ban like that?

      Edit: You aren't an admin but the question doesn't matter

      [–]allthefoxesKappa 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

      That's not my concern. Moderators asking someone to do something like that to be unbanned isn't against the rules. Evading a ban is against the rules.

      [–]ForceBlade -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      That's not my concern.

      Doesn't care. Okay.

      コメントをもっと表示する (5 返事)

        [–]elfa82 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Do you guys and gals plan on updating the rules to make them more clear?

        [–]The_Imerfect_Mango 5ポイント6ポイント  (8子コメント)

        So why are you guys making this announcement now? Did something happen on this sub?

        [–]DERPYBASTARD 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

        This post in /r/videos was probably the reason. Linked admin comment calling OP out on bullshit because I love it.

        [–]The_Imerfect_Mango 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Wow, what's up with that? You'd think people would have better things to do with their time than make multiple accounts on Reddit to troll and spam. Thanks for the link.

        [–]KyzrRelax 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I have over a dozen accounts on reddit. I make a new main account every 5k karma or so, and others I use for scripting/testing.

        It's an interesting tidbit I'd always suspected but never took the time to verify.

        [–]PlNG 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Evidently YouTube AdSense spam can be very profitable and difficult to catch

        This ring is being very blatant about it with several identifiable patterns, but there's also the occasional post from "generic" YouTube accounts that have very few videos but millions of views on them, all viral in nature. I have to say that this alone is probably the biggest and stealthiest problem this site has since it requires upstream scrapes / api calls to fully investigate. The problem is also compounded by people selling their videos rights to "viral video services" as well as buying viral videos.

        [–]krispykrackers[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Nothing happened on this subreddit, but there's been a lot of speculation about shadowbanning in the past day or so and I thought it was a good time to talk about it openly.

        [–]TyrialFrost 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Seriously, stop shadow banning people. It sucks, if you cant take the 2s to send a PM a generic message from a central account then maybe you shouldn't be doing it.

        It also doesn't help that you shadowban for bullshit reasons like brigading where the rules make no fucking sense and out of touch with how the internet works. If I follow a link from twitter to reddit discussion i'm interested in then use my reddit account I made 5 years ago to participate I am now brigading and get shadowbanned.

        If you don't want people to participate in discussions not found organically from reddit then change to site to disallow deeplinking. You wont? because that would be fucking retarded, just like the brigading bans you hand out. You know what is just as stupid? the subreddit to subreddit bans, oh someone came from /r/subredditdrama and wants to participate in this discussion? better be a coward and shadowban them (not notify them or publicly show your bullshit decisions).

        Then just to be complete hypocrites you should get cosy with other subreddits like SRS and refuse to comment on the bullshit they pull or use the same logic on their actions.

        Basically, the administration of this site is uncommunicative and uneven in its application of 'rules'. The refusal to even standup and visibly show your actions is just icing on the cake.

        [–]psiphre 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        welcome to your shadowban

        [–]The_Imerfect_Mango 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Oh I see. Thanks for the PSA then!

        [–]moodorks 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

        Am I shadowbanned?

        [–]phantasmagorical 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

        FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt

        Term commonly used in business, sales, etc.

        [–]analogkid01 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I always thought it meant "Fucked-Up Data" but I suppose yours makes more sense in this context.

        [–]myheaditches 21ポイント22ポイント  (24子コメント)

        Wow, this is astonishing, and unacceptable.

        So why are regular users being shadowbanned?
        Because it's still the only tool we have to punish people who break the rules.

        I can't imagine programming this would take more than a year, and reddit has been around for many years, which means reddit inc has never thought this to be unacceptable. It never occurred to the company that shadowbanning normal users for breaking rules, never informing them what rule they broke, was a terrible thing to do. Whatever. That's the past. The company finally got a clue.

        However...

        However, like /u/spez has mentioned during his AMA, "Real users should never be shadowbanned. Ever." And he means that.

        This does not jive with this:

        Right now, the current situation is that we still have to use this shadowban tool that we're stuck with to punish all rule breakers the same, be them bot or be them human, spammer or active user, anything.

        Either /u/spez meant what he said, you're taking his words to heart, and real users should never be shadowbanned. But it looks like either he didn't mean it, or you didn't take it to heart, because you're still shadowbanning users. /u/spez didn't say "It's okay if real users are shadowbanned until sometime in the future."

        Stand by your words. Stop shadowbanning real users. Now, not "later."

        [–]myheaditches 11ポイント12ポイント  (6子コメント)

        I'd like to cover one more thing. Yes, it's about how terrible you are. You already knew that.

        • How does someone get un-shadowbanned?

        They need to contact the admins and ask why they were banned. Currently they can either message the mods of /r/reddit.com or use contact@reddit.com. We have a conversation with them and once the situation is addressed and resolved, we lift the ban. Or we don't, depending on the severity and/or repetitiveness of the infringement(s).

        You missed the most important step in how to get un-shadowbanned. The person that was shadowbanned needs to find out about it, either by checking themselves like some sort of paranoid person or by being told by a non-employee (moderators).

        You can't say it's easy to get un-shadowbanned when it's not even easy to know if you've been banned.

        [–]dirtymoney 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

        someone needs to create an app or extension that you can set to regularly check if you are shadowbanned. Set it for once a day. And then it alerts you if you were banned.

        [–]Im-Probably-Lying 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

        it already exists. it's called "right click username -> open in incognito/private window"

        if your profile still shows up, you're not shadowbanned.

        if it doesn't, you're shadowbanned.

        [–]dirtymoney 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I want it automated! have it do it by itself!

        [–]Im-Probably-Lying 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        lol what?

        how often would you have it checking and refreshing to make sure you still aren't banned? i just can't see a reason for it to be automated... and this is coming from someone who actually got one before.

        [–]dirtymoney 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I have been shadownbanned several times (mostly mistakenly). I would just like something working in the background to do it so I dont have to. Like when I use page monitor. A little extension that checks a page to see when something new is posted or when something goes on sale. Yeah, I can manually check all those pages but it is a pain int he balls. A manual shadow ban check would be just another pain in the balls.

        how often would you have it checking and refreshing to make sure you still aren't banned?

        once a day, maybe twice. Have a little window pop up and say "you've been shadowbanned!"

        I hate making a submission only to find out two days later I was shadowbanned because i got caught in the spamfilter and by the time I can get someone to unban me... the submission is already so behind in the list that no one ever gets to see it. Happened to me several times.

        [–]beefswizzle 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        http://nullprogram.com/am-i-shadowbanned

        [–]purplespengler 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

        /u/spez didn't say "It's okay if real users are shadowbanned until sometime in the future." Stand by your words. Stop shadowbanning real users. Now, not "later."

        I'm so fucking tired of people parroting this stupid rhetoric.

        You know what /u/spez also didn't say? "We are going to immediately stop shadowbanning real users without any alternative to address perpetually toxic people".

        Most adults understand that the word "should" means "ideally" and not "absolutely positively right now immediately". Come off it, already. Pretend for maybe more than 5 minutes that you're an adult and exhibit a basic amount of patience.

        [–]Reddisaurusrekts 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        You know what /u/spez[2] also didn't say? "We are going to immediately stop shadowbanning real users without any alternative to address perpetually toxic people".

        That's actually what

        "Real users should never be shadowbanned. Ever."

        means, except it ALSO means retrospectively.

        [–]myheaditches 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

        As has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, there is something the admins could do right now, and could have been doing for awhile: Using the feature of sending messages from subreddits (such as /r/reddit.com ) to send messages to banned people (that aren't spammers). This would aggregate all responses to the /r/reddit.com modmail, so that all admins would be able to send notifications and handle responses.

        Most adults understand that the word "should" means "ideally" and not "absolutely positively right now immediately". Come off it, already. Pretend for maybe more than 5 minutes that you're an adult and exhibit a basic amount of patience.

        Try to have at least a little decorum when parading around your maturity over others.

        Edit: Thanks for the downvotes? I guess in the future I shouldn't respond and engage in a dialogue?

        [–]purplespengler -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

        there is something the mods could do right now, and could have been doing for awhile

        It's pretty far from reasonable to demand the Admins increase their workload by orders of magnitude because you refuse to have an appropriate expectation about when shadowbanning of real users will stop.

        Try to have at least a little decorum when parading around your maturity over others.

        Switching on Essay Writing Verbiage when you write comments isn't a measure of maturity, champ. There's no amount of 10 cent words you can pepper in that will overshadow the abject immaturity of translating the word "should" into the phrase "IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN FROM THIS MOMENT FORWARD" and then getting mad when reality doesn't match your fantasy. This is the logic of a child, not an adult.

        [–]allthefoxesKappa 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

        So lets just not ban rulebreakers? Let them do whatever?

        [–]Books_4_LYFE 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

        You mean shadowban, not ban, right?

        [–]myheaditches 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I see no problem with admins taking a few seconds to shoot a PM to the user they are banning. While technically it'd still be a shadowban, I wouldn't really consider it the same as someone is notifying the person. But they aren't. I can't think of a reason why this can't be done.

        [–]WowZaPowah 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Hell, a standard ban would be easy to use.

        And before people start whining at me, think about it. How hard it is to lock someone from commenting/voting/posting and send them a PM? Surely wasnt hard to implement Reddit gold and its several features.

        [–]ImNotJesus 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

        This seems like an obvious and overdue step. Thanks for letting us know that it's finally happening.

        What's frustrating is that so often we're told changes in policy aren't possible because it would be impossible for the admin team to manage the workload. For example, I suggested a system of reporting to admins that was accessable to mods in their own subreddits that worked like the mod report function. Whether it's true or not, every single response I got from mods (and an ex admin) was that it was a fantastic idea but you would never do it because it would be unfeasible to actually deal with all the rule breaking that goes on.

        It's frustrating, given that mods are held to account if we don't keep our subreddits to a certain standard, that the admins are incapable of doing certain things because of a lack of staff. If you were angry at a sub for not clearing out spam quickly enough and they responded by saying it wasn't feasible to manage the spam with the size of their team, would you really be okay with that as an answer?

        I know in this case you're planning to change the tools but "it's not feasible" isn't really a satisfying answer.

        [–]titanshub 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Don't misunderstand me, I am not in favor of shadowbans, but I think that part of the problem is that there is no real cost to the punishment of a ban without them. Because accounts are essentially free to create and they can be created in unlimited ammounts, if you inform someone that you have banned them then they can just create another account and continue. However, if you don't tell them then they have to spend their time and effort figuring that out and that expended time and effort is the punishment.

        I'm interested to see what the technical solution is because you can either introduce cost into account creation, or you design a progression system on accounts to give them tangible value. Another fun idea would be replacing Karma with digital cryptograpic tokens that can redeemed for advertising and are trade-able on an open market like what the guys at Letstalkbitcoin are doing with Tokenly.

        [–]n1nj4_v5_p1r4t3 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Why don't you tell people when you shadowban them?

        Mostly because we never used to. If we were to begin to today, since it's not automated, it would require us to issue the ban, then individually send them a message. That means that the admin that sent the message would be required to respond to every single person who replied back via their user inbox. It's not really sustainable or scalable as it would exist now.

        A very simple change in programming can fix that.

        [–]kdryan 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Be a shame if the mods actually had to work to ban someone.

        [–]AltHypo 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Well, they'd have to hire a programmer...

        [–]kdryan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Or actually spend some time on their job communicating with people rather than just pushing a button arbitrarily.

        [–]kijib 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        http://i.imgur.com/BCN9vSb.png

        [–]RambleMan 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I think it's hilarious that you've provided a way for someone to initiate being un-shadowbanned, but acknowledge there's no way for them to know they've been shadowbanned.

        Let's just keep walking in circles convincing ourselves that we've got this figured out.

        [–]OrbOfConfusion 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I was shadowbanned for vote brigading, which in my case was just giving a few downvotes to a troll someone linked to in a thread - yeah, I shouldn't have and I broke the rules, but when I messaged the admins to ask about it and get it undone, they were really rude to me, mocking me and the sub I was on when it happened (it was a women-centered sub, and they were essentially mocking me as though I were a hysterical female). I thought it was really inappropriate, and since my offense involved only a few downvotes to an obvious troll, I felt that shadowbanning was a bit extreme, and the admins did not handle it professionally. Sure, I should've been reprimanded somehow, but I don't think it warranted disabling my entire account, mocking me, and making me kiss their ass before undoing it.

        [–]TyrialFrost 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

        You have to understand, Reddit admins are not professionals, and the company has no standards of service or even a complaint mechanism.

        Numerous posts by their corporate hierarchy has shown this.

        Opens Popcorn

        [–]nayson9 7ポイント8ポイント  (9子コメント)

        Not trying to sound kinky, but... How would reddit punish me?

        [–]krispykrackers[S] 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

        ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

        [–]--Satan-- 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

        No one would be able to see your comments.

        [–]ucantsimee 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Are you going to be hiring more community managers? It seems like there's a lot of work for the existing staff and naturally things get lost in the queue. I think the ability to quickly ban and more importantly unban people would really help at least until the new tools go live.

        [–]Cabeza2000 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I really don't get why this was posted on /r/self. There is no better subreddit for admin posts such as this one?

        [–]courtiebabe420 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

        /r/announcements doesn't seem right, as it's not an announcement. /r/blog isn't right because it's not a blog post. /r/casualconversation, maybe, but that's not any better/different than /r/self.

        I don't think there is a better place, really.

        [–]Franzkafkarockopera 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Thank god you all fired cupcake. When I asked why I was shadow banned, she just replied "you know what you did. Bye."

        [–]Im-Probably-Lying 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        hm.. i may be remembering things wrong, but i actually think cupcake was the one who reversed mine.

        [–]StezzerLolz 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Cupcake had a very mixed reputation. Some people hated her, others (like myself) found her amongst the most plugged-in admins.

        [–]IamGrimReefer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        why wasn't this a blog post or an announcement? so many people will never see this.

        [–]elfleda 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Why the fuck is this posted here?

        [–]Rinx 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Doesn't this

        A shadowban is the tool we currently use to ban people when they are caught breaking a rule.

        conflict directly with this

        Real users should never be shadowbanned. Ever. If we ban them, or specific content, it will be obvious that it's happened and there will be a mechanism for appealing the decision.

        [–]krispykrackers[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Yes. The first is the current state of affairs, the second is what we will be able to do once we have a new tool (or tools), which is currently being worked on.

        [–]Rinx 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Ah ok, missed the bit at the end. It's great you admit how terrible the user experience is there, but why did it take until a few weeks ago to see any progress on this? Was there internal debate if it was worth fixing?

        [–]Jesus_Faction 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        thanks for the update...

        [–]TotesMessenger 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

        If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)

        [–]FoolishPS4User 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        So.... Admins are a bunch of fucking liars?

        No surprise.

        [–]Im-Probably-Lying 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        As a previously shadowbanned user (for something that I completely admit doing and have not done since) I just have one question:

        Why is SRS allowed to break every single rule there is on this website, yet they are never reprimanded at all?

        [–]ellieneagain 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        A small forum I go on has a "time out" section. I think that's better because it is transparent to the user about what is happening and why.

        [–]InZehInterfector 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I lost my old account to a shadowban, and never got even a response.

        [–]FillInTheBlank 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        So send a message as /u/reddit or /r/reddit.com

        It's not hard.

        [–]doodle77 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Take the part of the code that bans users from subreddits. When user is (non-shadow) banned, apply it to all subreddits. Voila, regular bans.

        [–]hoti0101 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Is there a way to tell if you're shadow banned? Are shadow bans specific per subreddit or site-wide?

        [–]PopeJohnPaulII 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Who has the authority to shadowban? Only admins, correct? Or can mods shadowban?

        I understand mods can regular ban users, what happens when you are regular banned?

        [–]MercuryPDX 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Only admins.

        I understand mods can regular ban users, what happens when you are regular banned?

        You're blocked from posting in a subreddit.

        [–]ju2tin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        "Move slow and leave things broken."

        [–]GenOmega 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Why don't you tell people when you shadowban them

        Because its a SHADOWban. not a ban ban.

        [–]itsrattlesnake 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Speaking for myself, I think shadowbanning makes perfect sense in the context of keeping spammers and other undesirables at bay. A real user will notice after commenting for just a little while that something's up and will search out the reason for the strange lack of upvotes or response. Ultimately they've found that they're shadow banned.

        This is mostly annoying at this point. However, the worst part is that the process to get unshadowbanned is wrapped in mystery. If you message enough, the admins may get back to you in a day or two, a week, a month, or never. That's the worst part. I understand that admins are busy with many things. And the confronting users about inappropriate behavior is probably difficult sometimes. However, I believe a little empathy for the user would be appropriate, especially for a user in good standing who doesn't know what the hell they've done!

        Solution? Maybe add 'moderators', or whatever you'd like to call them, who sift through the shadowban messages. Possibly make a subreddit for it where people can appeal their ban via Mod Mail and have a large number of moderators who have teh powah to undo it if they feel that it's warranted. Maybe work a system where warnings/penalties can be introduced for paroled Redditors.

        To recap, shadowban sucks, but I see the point in it. However, the process behind resolving a shadowban needs to be more transparent and dehumanizing.

        [–]Shanix 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        They need to contact the admins and ask why they were banned. Currently they can either message the mods of /r/reddit.com[3] or use contact@reddit.com[4] . We have a conversation with them and once the situation is addressed and resolved, we lift the ban. Or we don't, depending on the severity and/or repetitiveness of the infringement(s).

        I can at least attest that this isn't a one every ten thousand messages thing. I got shadowbanned once and contacted the admins, took them less than a week and an additional message to respond and unban me. Would I've liked to get a response to the first message? Probably. Am I happy I got a response? Yeah. So, food for thought I guess.

        [–]KrustyKoonKrackers 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Could you please speak to the different levels of shadowbans? We know there's the regular shadowban and the IP ban, but some users see username stalking shadowbans with similar usernames getting banned and some users reported getting insta shadowbans after creating accounts with tor and then accepting dickgirls mod invites. How many shadowban levels are there?

        I'd like to thank admins for the hidden shadowban function of being able to ban new subreddits with shadowbanned accounts, see /r/KrustyKritters, /r/KrustyKrackers, /r/KrustyKumbox, /r/KrustyKoonKrackers, etc.

        [–]RingsOfYourAnus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Paging /u/ribbonlace

        [–]Nechaev 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        While it's fine for authetic spammers, hiding the userpage of "naughty" redditors is just an inconvenience for everybody except the shadowbanned person.

        When this overhaul comes through can you restore all those hidden pages, even if you don't want the accounts posting again?

        The current shadowban system is textbook passive-aggression.

        [–]DaemonXI 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Why don't you tell people when you shadowban them?

        Mostly because we never used to. If we were to begin to today, since it's not automated, it would require us to issue the ban, then individually send them a message. That means that the admin that sent the message would be required to respond to every single person who replied back via their user inbox. It's not really sustainable or scalable as it would exist now.

        God forbid you build some moderation architecture to make modding Reddit a little easier

        [–]KhalifaKidV2 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        So what about those of us who requested information from Admins about our shadowban, but never received an answer?

        [–]dirtymoney 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        My problem with shadowbanning is when it is used on someone who didnt know they technically broke the rules. Like brigading. SOmeone posts a link from one subreddit to another and people naturally follow it and act as they would anywhere on reddit and upvote and downvote comments and then BAM! SHADOWBANNED!!!1 Lumped in with everyone else as a brigader! Not knowing what the fuck happened or why it happened.

        THANKS!

        And then when you finally talk to admins they accuse you of being a brigader and act like a prick about it like you did something intentionally malicious . Like they are god and are going to graciously unban you if you beg and promise to never do it again.

        You understand the frustration this can cause to a person who didnt think they did anythign wrong?

        Because of THIS bullshit I am never going to directly follow a link (to another subreddit post again) for fear of being acused of brigading. I am going to look up the post via the subreddit's submission list and access it THAT way.

        Thanks for making reddit THAT much more of a pain in the ass! (yes, I am pissed!)

        [–]AltHypo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        You are all garbage.

        [–]obadetona -1ポイント0ポイント  (12子コメント)

        Mostly because we never used to. If we were to begin to today, since it's not automated, it would require us to issue the ban, then individually send them a message. That means that the admin that sent the message would be required to respond to every single person who replied back via their user inbox. It's not really sustainable or scalable as it would exist now.

        shadowbans surely aren't as common as you're making them out to be

        [–]JimmyDabomb 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        My wife got shadowbanned. We never figured out why.

        [–]krispykrackers[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

        They're incredibly common. We have millions of users and rule breaking happens all the time.

        [–]ocktick 2ポイント3ポイント  (9子コメント)

        But "rule breaking" is still punished manually right, aside from spam of course? If you have time to manually find rule breakers, manually ban them, why is it such a big deal to send a copy-pasted PM saying "we banned you"?

        [–]krispykrackers[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

        You're forgetting that for every message a community admin sends, they would be responsible for replying from within their own inbox. Having them come to us keeps everything within the /r/reddit.com subreddit's modmail, which is easier to monitor and allows more than just one person to be able to investigate and respond within a conversation chain.

        [–]allthefoxesKappa 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

        But you can send messages as subreddits now...

        [–]ocktick 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Why not just put in the copy pasted notification "to appeal, do not reply to this pm, instead just email whatever@reddit.com."

        I should probably start charging you guys for this...

        [–]krispykrackers[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I mean, sure, but I have a feeling that people would reply to the message anyway, since that's normal reddit behavior. It just seems really messy. I know my excuses suck, and they are just excuses, but since things are changing I'm hesitant to try and introduce some new way to do things that will not be needed soon (ie. "absolutely as fast as we can").

        [–]olympusmons 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        do good work d-(^_^)-b

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          [–]elfa82 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

          But with availability to send PMs as a sub, you could technically send from r/reddit.com. But I would imagine with all the mail that sub gets way too much mail as it is though.

          [–]myheaditches 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I don't really understand, why are we supposed to care that doing this the right way would be inconvenient for you? And don't forget a huge incentive to not do it the right way: a lot more people would know they're banned, and be responding back.

          [–]Neocoustic 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

          Is the amount of time in a shadowban finite, of do you have to message to mods?

          [–]ocktick 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          It was designed to catch spammers. I doubt they built in a expiration date to allow them to post again.

          [–]krispykrackers[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          There's no "end" date. There is a temp-shadowban that we rarely use, since a user could potentially go the entire duration of their ban without knowing.

          [–]alien122 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Post this on the blog. r/self just doesn't have the subscribers to dessiminate this info everywhere effectively.

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