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DiscussionA different take on redpillers, and the bluepillers who want to change or help them.. (self.PurplePillDebate)

Purplethrwee が 投稿

I see a lot of posts on the bluepill and here expressing things like "hopefully they will grow out of it" or "how can they treat others as objects, etc. Also the sentiment that if they could just gain some self awareness, then they could change.

Now I do not consider myself a redpiller, but I am a person living with ASPD, and I can assure you that sociopathy is not something you can "cure" or grow out of. Our brains are literally different (see: brainscans have shown amygdala which controls empathy to be different). We see relationships as transactional because to us, that's all they are. We don't possess the necessary empathy to see them in any other context.

From what I can tell a lot of Redpillers are not pretending to be sociopaths, they ARE sociopaths. It's what led to the problem of being "nice guys" in the first place. A fundamental misunderstanding of social interaction between the majority of people they've grown up around and what their own brains process these relationships as. Since becoming self aware, I realize I projected my lack of empathy onto others. I assumed other people were like me, when in reality over 90% of people are empaths.

Telling ASPD sufferers to "grow up" or that they are wrong is misguided. Through therapy, I have learned to manage my condition and minimize the damage to those around me, but I also know that the psychological and emotional manipulation (aka game) of "empaths" comes naturally for those of us with this disorder.

The real solution I believe is diagnosis of these mental conditions early on in childhood and/or separation(institutionally). Eventually there will be a surgery available to fix the part of the brain that is responsible for the empathy disorder. But until then, all the back and forth of who is right and wrong will go nowhere. To a sociopath, the redpill view can make perfect sense. Now I was never a "nice guy", but I did use manipulation tactics before I ever knew what they were. People were just objects to me (male OR female).

As an empath, you will never be able to see things from that perspective, a perspective which sees life as "winning or losing" and a power struggle at all times. Which is for you, a good thing. I wish I had been born different, but unfortunately I wasn't. Anyway, I don't think there is a right or wrong pill worldview. Just Empaths and sociopaths perceiving reality in very different ways.

Curious to hear any other thoughts on this.

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[–]exit_sandmanSocial Justice War Criminal 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

Now I do not consider myself a redpiller, but I am a person living with ASPD, and I can assure you that sociopathy is not something you can "cure" or grow out of. Our brains are literally different (see: brainscans have shown amygdala which controls empathy to be different). We see relationships as transactional because to us, that's all they are. We don't possess the necessary empathy to see them in any other context.

From what I can tell a lot of Redpillers are not pretending to be sociopaths, they ARE sociopaths.

Hey taiboworks, did you just create an alternate account to troll us?

[–]taiboworks -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

haha, no. and i wonder how many aspd types really are as self aware as op. i've read a lot that most narcissists (narcissism is related to aspd to some degree), never see themselves for what they actually are which is why red pillers are not very constructive to debate with (at least about themselves).

[–]exit_sandmanSocial Justice War Criminal [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

and i wonder how many aspd types really are as self aware as op.

Well, you certainly aren't.

[–]taiboworks [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

are you as self aware as op?

[–]exit_sandmanSocial Justice War Criminal [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Yes, insofar as I am aware of my mental status (check: not a sociopath).

You on the other hand apparently think of yourself as a morally good person yet one of your favorite hobbies is labeling people you disagree with as mentally ill. In other words you're in good company with stalinist regimes.

[–]taiboworks [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

where have i said i am a morally good person?

yet one of your favorite hobbies is labeling people you disagree with as mentally ill.

red pillers being aspies, narcissists, sociopaths is a common criticism for a reason. and i am referencing personality styles, not personality disorders (which are more extreme). in any case, i think people should be able to be whatever personality style they want.

[–]CisWhiteMaelstromEndorsed Contributor 9ポイント10ポイント  (17子コメント)

From what I can tell a lot of Redpillers are not pretending to be sociopaths, they ARE sociopaths

Reds aren't sociopaths. Even I'm not a natural sociopath; I had to learn it and practice it. Lets be real here, why do you think they write red pill theory? I'm not here so you guys can tell me how to talk to girls. I can do that already. I'm pretty sure GLO doesn't need you guys to give him lifting and nutrition advice either. We're very nice compassionate guys, we just choose carefully who we want to dedicate our time and energy to. I chose the boys.

It's what led to the problem of being "nice guys" in the first place.

A lot of us were never nice guys. Even when I was a feminist I was a pretty big asshole.

A fundamental misunderstanding of social interaction between the majority of people they've grown up around and what their own brains process these relationships as. Since becoming self aware, I realize I projected my lack of empathy onto others. I assumed other people were like me, when in reality over 90% of people are empaths.

I think you're still doing that in this post. Pretty much all red pillers are empaths.

[–]taiboworks -1ポイント0ポイント  (16子コメント)

We're very nice compassionate guys, we just choose carefully who we want to dedicate our time and energy to.

genuinely compassionate people are not selective about it, they feel the happiness and/or pain of everyone they run across. they can't shut it off. that's the origin of the term empathy fatigue.

A lot of us were never nice guys. Even when I was a feminist I was a pretty big asshole.

you can't be compassionate as you claimed to be and an asshole, they require different brain wiring, emotional systems. you are more likely going to be more one or the other.

Pretty much all red pillers are empaths.

do you understand the systematizing vs empathizing preference? are you really going to argue red pillers are more likely to have an empathizing than a systematizing preference? are you really going to argue that a subreddit that worships STEM degrees are empaths? are women naturally inclined to STEM then?

[–]2012Aceman 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Genuinely compassionate people are not selective about it, they feel the happiness and/or pain of everyone they run across. They can't shut it off.

True. If you're a religious person, do you feel the same way about God and sin? If you're not, do you love good and evil equally? Of course not. You have to objectively judge the good as something you want to preserve, and the bad as something that is negative which you want rid of. In that same way a RedPiller, while generally being a nice person, does come down hard on those who deviate from the "good" route precisely because they care. If they didn't care they wouldn't bother to shame another person for bad acts, because they don't care about that person or anything they would do. The opposite of love is apathy, not hate. Because at least the person who hates you wants you to change, the person who feels nothing toward you doesn't care about you at all.

The difference here is the same as the difference between a parent or authority figure scolding a disobedient child so that the child can become a better person, and the parent who lets them run wild as long as they aren't bothered. If TRP truly hated women then the articles wouldn't be about self improvement to increase your value, which could lead to finding a better woman. It would instead be about how to lie, cheat, manipulate, and abuse women. It wouldn't be focused on how to better your life, it would be focused on how to wreck other's lives.

You can't be compassionate as you claimed to be and an asshole, they required different brain wiring, emotional systems. You are more likely going to be more one than the other.

But you can be both at the same time. It is compassionate if during a disaster I become a volunteer worker and donate all my food to the victims. However, I am an asshole if I selectively choose to give my food only to people who agree with me on every issue. At the same time I am both, compassionate for relieving the needy, and an asshole because I'm being exclusionary.

Are you really going to argue red pillers are more likely to have an empathizing than a sympathizing preference?

I really like this question. Empathy is essentially sympathy with personal experience. You are sharing in the other's experience because you've been there yourself. In this vein of thinking TRP is actually empathetic because it is a group formed for men who are looking to improve themselves. That means that most of the men who come to TRP have past damage, meaning that most of the members probably have a commonality of experiences. TRP definitely doesn't sympathize as much. Sympathizing is "feelz" in TRP-speak. It is empathy that lacks sincerity. Sympathy is empty words that don't translate into the physical world. It is a circle jerk to try and rationalize experiences, and while you're stuck in the rut of sympathy you'll never be able to get out. That's why TRP is so effective: due to these men's shared experiences they stand as living examples that you CAN make it through tough times, and that you can actually come out better than before.

[–]taiboworks -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

It would instead be about how to lie, cheat, manipulate, and abuse women. It wouldn't be focused on how to better your life, it would be focused on how to wreck other's lives.

trp is amoral, it has examples of both strategies. some would argue more of the wreck others part.

In this vein of thinking TRP is actually empathetic because it is a group formed for men who are looking to improve themselves.

every society is a group looking to improve itself, and there have been plenty of sociopathic and/or toxic societies.

[–]2012Aceman 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Sure, every group says that they want to improve themselves, but watch their actions, not their words. If someone REALLY WANTED to lose weight, would they continue to live a sedentary lifestyle and have a bad diet? If someone REALLY WANTED to earn their living, wouldn't they go get a job, or develop skills to get a job, or network to find a job, or just do odd jobs themselves (yardwork and housework don't require degrees, and can pay quite well). If someone REALLY WANTED to attract a partner, wouldn't they spend time socializing with others and making themselves more attractive instead of wasting their time on porn and letting one more day of their life slip by. Every society "looks" to improve itself, but it is the dedicated communities like TRP that actually encourage you to stick with it. There is no "you're fine as you are." There is a "you could be better than you are now."

[–]taiboworks -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

trp stokes anger towards women when it should encourage users to become more self and other aware and stop thinking with their narcissistic-ally wounded emotions. it claims to be amoral, which is borderline antisocial.

[–]2012Aceman [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

TRP encourages anger toward those who have wronged you, not anger toward women. It just so happens that many men are alike in the fact that women have screwed them over. So that gives them a shared experience and some common ground to bond on. No different than TwoX having a common ground with feminists and women who have been screwed over by men.

[–]CisWhiteMaelstromEndorsed Contributor 3ポイント4ポイント  (10子コメント)

genuinely compassionate people are not selective about it, they feel the happiness and/or pain of everyone they run across. they can't shut it off. that's the origin of the term empathy fatigue.

No, some are pretty selective.

you can't be compassionate as you claimed to be and an asshole, they require different brain wiring, emotional systems. you are more likely going to be more one or the other.

Really depends. For reds, I'm not really an asshole at all. For others, I'm not really compassionate at all.

do you understand the systematizing vs empathizing preference? are you really going to argue red pillers are more likely to have an empathizing than a systematizing preference? are you really going to argue that a subreddit that worships STEM degrees are empaths? are women naturally inclined to STEM then?

Huh?

[–]taiboworks -3ポイント-2ポイント  (9子コメント)

the suggestion that 90% of a subreddit that worships STEM, logic, and guides to female behavior are empaths is absurd. empaths don't need guides to human behavior, they tend to understand other humans.

[–]Xemnas81 [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

No they don't, some of them never realise how much their own hyper-sensitivity drains them or leaves them vulnerable, in co-dependent relationships and so forth.

[–]taiboworks [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

hypersensitivity correlates to low emotional stability which is orthogonal to empathy/accommodation. you can be selfish and hypersensitive, and selfless/empathetic and hypersensitive. an unstable selfish male who is really into a girl (for whatever reason) can pedestalize her without actually caring about her.

[–]Xemnas81 [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

And equally a hypersensitive empathetic male could pedestalise her by caring too much...

[–]taiboworks [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

only if he empathized that's what she really wanted from him and not sex. if that's true red pillers knew the women they pedestalized were never into them and only wanted to be friends and they were fine with that. but, that doesn't fit with the aspie red pill script that they did what society told them to do and it didn't get them sex. empaths are aware of what others want/think/feel, they don't need a guide to humans.

[–]Xemnas81 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

This is just you trying to shut down RP as bitter they can't get laid, transparently.

[–]taiboworks [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

if you couldn't get laid and you didn't know why, you are not an empath. there are empaths that can't get laid too, but they tend to know why.

[–]CisWhiteMaelstromEndorsed Contributor [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

the suggestion that 90% of a subreddit that worships STEM, logic

What do you even mean by "worships STEM"? It's not like we sit around /r/atheism style and jerk about it. It's good career advice so that's the advice we give. But more importantly, what does valuing STEM have to do with empathy?

empaths don't need guides to human behavior, they tend to understand other humans.

Clearly that's not the case since RP is empathic and uses a model.

[–]taiboworks [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

read up on the systematizing vs empathizing preference.

[–]Xemnas81 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

Oh, you think I'm a sociopath? Yes tell that to the 18 year old me who felt something close to a heart attack coming on when I made my mom cry. I am crazy sensitive you fool.

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

You raise a good point. Red Pill philosophy is just as much an emotional shield as it is a sexual tool.

[–]Xemnas81 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Of course it is. It's a huge barrier against the fear of intimacy, because we have all been vulnerable at some point and then been sorely wounded as a consequence of failure to understand the game. Now we are a little more armed against such assaults. This doesn't just extend to being 'friend zoned', it could be witnessing a nasty divorce as a kid like I did, being alienated for mental health problems or a disability, generally disrespected, having your life destroyed by divorce rape and laws on alimony/child custody, etc.

I posted this because of the stupid bitch who came in and suggested that 20-something to 50-something men would spend hundreds of hours of their adult lives whining about how Sally Boobz4Days rejected him at prom or some shit. The Manosphere is concerned with more than just being friend zoned by hot girls.

edit: fuck I can't find it, I have a 50-point mini-essay saying "How dare you" on PPD in response to "hot girl goggles", but it's not that thread, go look it up

[–]taiboworks -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's a huge barrier against the fear of intimacy

empaths don't fear intimacy, they live to experience the emotions of others. they are more likely to be alienated from their own emotions, not others. their preferred experience of happiness is to feel/experience the happiness of others, for example.

[–]gavinok 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

It's what led to the problem of being "nice guys" in the first place.

You have a huge misunderstanding of what a pre-TRP man is, and haven't read enough threads to understand why men come to TRP.

Pre-TRP men put women on a pedestal. They women as above human, where they are worthy of extra-special treatment. They take careful consideration to empathy of women, and enable themselves to be manipulated by women by supplicating to a woman's every desire that they ask.

In a sense, the pre-TRP-niceguy has some elements of being a sociopath, like being nice to get what you want, but it's not even close to a real sociopath because they have empathy for women and act like a servant to them. They aren't destructive or harmful to women, they greatly benefit them (see a male best friend google search).

[–]fruitenvracPurple Pill 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

You have a huge misunderstanding

I don't know. I think it might be you with the huge misunderstanding. OP makes an interesting point, especially from his perspective as someone diagnosed with ASPD. He recognizes the behaviour for what it is. Nice-guy-ism isn't empathy. In fact in some ways it could be said to be the exact opposite of it. Empathy involves the individual, seeing the individual for who they are. Not just their tits or their ass or their pussy. Acting like a servant, supplicating etc. doesn't imply empathy, it implies desperation, it implies overwhelming desire. That can cancel out a lot of other, unrelated-to-getting-laid emotional imperatives.

I'm not going to diagnose red pill as sociopathic, though. I think men, especially when young, are driven almost completely batshit by their hormones. They're sex-crazed, literally - even moreso if they're not getting sex. Nice guys see the possibility of pussy. They don't see the individual woman. It doesn't matter who she is, as long as she's attractive enough to warrant his interest and has a warm hole. If she were to morph into a 55 year old chubbo in front of his eyes, he would walk away without a second thought. It's not a problem, it's just how things are. They grow out of it or they don't. I'm not mad at them, they have every right to try everything they can to get laid. But don't call it empathy, man.

[–]gavinok 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

If she were to morph into a 55 year old chubbo in front of his eyes, he would walk away without a second thought.

Yes, in that circumstance. However, even when some nice guys are told no, or told that they aren't interested in them for sex/dating, the nice guy is still their friend for whatever reason.

My whole disagreeing point here is that, nice-guyism is not destructive to women, because women greatly benefit off it, and the rewards that come from being with a nice guy. Psychological disorders are disorders because they are dysfunctional to one's life, they can't live a normal life with a said psychological disorder.

Technically, empathy does not exist, in the form you state it to be. You are equating empathy to altruism, where one is doing something without the expectation of any self-fulfilling desires. There was an interesting story on a scientist who proved in a mathematical model that altruism isn't possible.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/george-price-altruism

[–]Xemnas81 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

It doesn't matter who she is, as long as she's attractive enough to warrant his interest and has a warm hole

you don't think Nice Guys care about the girls they orbit? They don't do the whole thing just to stick their dick up her vag., it's about wanting 'a girlfriend' and 'to be loved', and being too scared to be direct about their intentions, much less about sex than you think. Although sometimes they desire a status symbol/trophy, e.g. 'a hot girlfriend', and yes a seldom few do just want to get some tight pussy.

I can assure you the girl who 'friend zoned' me is someone I care about a hell of a lot.

[–]taiboworks -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I can assure you the girl who 'friend zoned' me is someone I care about a hell of a lot.

if you actually care about her than you would be fine she doesn't want you romantically because part of her is her feelings/desires, and her feelings/desires are such that she isn't/wasn't into you as anything more than a friend. to the degree you are not fine with that, you don't really care about her, you VALUE her in some other way, likely externally/looks-wise (or maybe because she emotionally resembles your mother and your emotional system is programmed to be attached/attracted to that).

[–]Xemnas81 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I was upset about it but I didn't hate her or even particularly judge her for it. I then took time away to get over it rather than stir up my own shit.

[–]thereddespair [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

i come off at times as a red coz yes i hover between psychopath and sociopath. most likely, also why i have an apathetic attitude towards both red and blue and i can agree and attack both out of circumstance, or agree.

empaths. lol.

i already agree with the idea of what is right and wrong, there is no such thing anyway. only what works and what does not work for a specific time and circumstance.

but i guess that is too complex for some. or its agenda, you want to secure your victory for ego.

reds, i dont thin they are sociopaths. a lot of them became such out of strong negative emotions afterall. more like profoundly emotionally damaged people. some might be though.

[–]andrewisgoodWell wouldn't you know who won the pony! 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

For me, it has a lot to do with truly relating to a lot of them. I maybe generalizing and some women could correct me if they feel there might be any issues, but I feel some women have a hard time empathizing with some of the red pillers. Now granted, there’s a good reason. They are the target of the hate group, so in reality, it’s really tough to empathize with them. So it might be easier for me to do so, because one, I’m not the target of their hate, and two, I was one of them.

I’m still shy at times. I still wish I was more dominant. I’m better then I was before, but I wish I could be even better. I wish I could be more “alpha”. Before I had this LTR, I never had one. I had random hook ups from time to time, or very short relationships, but never a full on relationship until I was 27. I mean, god damn, I bought a house before I had a real long term relationship.

I don’t know if any of them are sociopaths. Some of them could be, but one problem is, I really don’t know, and I’d be doing red pill science if I just assumed they were for bad reasons. All I can go on is what they say, and it could seem sociopathic, but it could also be ignorant.

It’s funny. Sometimes you’ll hear red pillers say, oh, the worst posts are people in the anger phase. Honestly, the people in the “anger phase” are better then the people who aren’t. Because they’re still frustrated. But, they have hate and frustration. The worst is when they develop contempt and just assume their worldview to be completely accurate and everything they feel about women is justified. Ignorance can be fixed. Contempt, true hate and bigotry is a lot harder.

I feel guys in the anger phase, that could have been me. I guess I’m not naturally an angry person, but I had my frustrations. And I guess that’s why it would be cool to change opinions. I don’t think it will happen. I do want to improve debating, I try to see what I could have done or said differently, and maybe I could change someone’s mind. But, maybe I’ll breed enough Dratinis to get a Dragonite with the hidden ability “Multiscale”, with perfect EVs and everything. It could happen.

[–]exit_sandmanSocial Justice War Criminal 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

but I feel some women have a hard time empathizing with some of the red pillers. Now granted, there’s a good reason. They are the target of the hate group, so in reality, it’s really tough to empathize with them.

Bingo. Which is also why I don't expect people (especially women) to try to relate with redpillers in the first place.

[–]Xemnas81 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's literally against their survival strategy to empathise with an adult male, it suggests low probability of passing the fitness marker tests for reproduction, so why would they be inclined to do so?

[–]myfatbrokethewallNon-Red Pill 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Telling ASPD sufferers to "grow up" or that they are wrong is misguided. Through therapy, I have learned to manage my condition and minimize the damage to those around me, but I also know that the psychological and emotional manipulation (aka game) of "empaths" comes naturally for those of us with this disorder.

This is off-topic, but the above suggests that you care about minimizing damage to those around you, isn't that evidence of empathy? Maybe you're not as lacking in empathy as you think?

[–]DietyzPurple Pill 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

If hes truly ASPD than that sentence is just put there as a form of manipulation, although I would imagine this is just a troll because I don't see why anyone with ASPD would go to therapy unless they were forced too

[–]fruitenvracPurple Pill 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Very interesting post, OP. Thanks.

As an empath, you will never be able to see things from that perspective, a perspective which sees life as "winning or losing" and a power struggle at all times. Which is for you, a good thing. I wish I had been born different, but unfortunately I wasn't. Anyway, I don't think there is a right or wrong pill worldview. Just Empaths and sociopaths perceiving reality in very different ways.

Maybe I'm not an empath (I really don't think I'm a sociopath either, though), but I feel like I do understand this 'other side.' Anyone reading this sub on a regular basis can see what you're describing above - the differing operating systems in different people - playing out all the time, as you've described it. The projection of a lack of empathy onto others - yes, that's very common. As is the projection of empathy onto others, also very common here. People are baffled by the fundamental differences in outlook and that bafflement turns into "well, you're wrong." It's hard to believe we're all the same species sometimes.

[–]wazzup987Black pill, you can beat me blue for it later 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Off topic but do you feel emotion? Becuase I was always told that sociopaths had acute empathy (the acute ability to see other emotional states) but no sympathy (the ability to others emotions with them).

[–]dundundundonenon-red pill -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

it's just a guess since i'm not sure i've seen this situation arise, but i'd be surprised to see blue/non-red pillers belittling or making fun of an admitted and diagnosed sociopath (but feel free to prove me wrong). it does seem like many red pillers glorify it and by their own admission, attempt to emulate it for personal gain, and... well, i think that's ridiculous.

[–]DietyzPurple Pill -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't think that's true at all, because if it were than TRP would be natural rather than learned. If I was told I had a personality disorder though I wouldn't doubt it

They say that 50% of people in colleges with personality disorders are philosophy majors, i'm no philosophy major but i'm interested in it enough that it has definitely distorted my world view. Anyone who spends enough time delving into philosophy could be diagnosed with a PD based on our societies standards. Though you could argue that's just because of drug pushers and not an accurate diagnosis.

[–]Xemnas81 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Same. If my parents divorcing was the timber for my nervous breakdown, Nietzsche was the match which started the fire. And TRP is the oil canister that just so happened to fall out of the sky and onto the fire a couple of years later.

[–]DietyzPurple Pill [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I too enjoy Nietzsche. I think his idea of slave/master morality, the idea that the world isn't fair and that all the progress of our civilizations is based on immoral people manipulating moral people to amass resources is very similar to TRP(except trp is purely for interpersonal relationships and gender differences)

I'm also a fan of the values of atheistic satanists, or at least I feel it portrays the way I naturally behave before morality