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PurplePillDebate

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submitted by CisWhiteMaelstromEndorsed Contributor
For some reason that I just absolutely cannot explain, blue pillers here are way to reluctant to use the blue pill flair. I've seen blue pillers adopt the red flair because they think that their worldview is what red "should" mean rather than the way it's obviously used on this sub, I've seen people with purple flair make their own subs that disagree with red pill, and no end of just raw blue pill style disagreement coming from non-blue pills.
If I had to guess, I'd say purples and most greys come from people who just don't really understand the red pill and end up asking /r/thebluepill what it is. They look over there and see "Ha, and they pretend to be about self improvement but they're actually just about misogyny!" Purples look at this and say to themselves, "Hmmm, well I understand the importance of attraction and not being a doormat but I really don't agree with any of the misogyny in the sidebar. I guess I'm inbetween."
No. That's not purple. A real purple pill view would be like "Well I agree that women are basically children and that they're essentially useless sociopathic whores in general unless they specifically try not to be but I think the way to get them into bed is show my devotion and servitude anyways and see if they come around." Purples should be nearly "sidebar red pill" and not just people who think attraction matters in dating.
Most of the greys here just strike me as people who don't want to look like they've been influenced by others. Grey should be reserved for the truly difficult cases. Other manospherians for instance would be good candidates for greys. A hardcore MGTOW or even MRA for instance doesn't accept our philosophy but he sees the red pill issue clear as day and has probably been through the anger phase. A PUA accepts the philosophy but doesn't really worry about the 'red pill problem'. Outside the manosphere, I can't imagine who would actually be a good candidate for that flair.
Now this sub's mods are making decisions to entice more blues to show up and we really don't need any more blues. We've got a shit load of them but it doesn't look like it because they keep misbranding themselves as purples and greys. We should seriously just get rid of the purple flair since almost nobody holds real purple pill views. Grey flair should be rebranded as "manospherian" and all of these misplaced purples and blues should just put on the blue flair.
all 50 comments
[–]dundundundonenon-red pill 10 points11 points12 points  (0 children)
i'm not sure why it matters so much. there are people who disagree with TRP but don't participate that much at TBP, or consider themselves either a member or an opponent of that sub. i guess if there's confusion about purples someone can... start a topic about it? but i think the mods already put forth a rule to make flairs/positions clearer and personally, I think they're fine as is.
it just sounds like you want to claim the gray flair to prevent people on 'the other side' from using it in a way you find displeasing even though it doesn't break the rules (as far as I'm aware) and that's silly. I'm also not sure why you're so bothered by the non-RP population here; it's still a pretty red-heavy sub. I think another sub similar to this one exists; maybe that would be more to your liking.
[–]buarthahas ass-fucking down 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
Yessss my pretties. Join the dark blue side.
[–]hyperrrealy-you too 4 points5 points6 points  (1 child)
I've seen blue pillers adopt the red flair because they think that their worldview is what red "should" mean rather than the way it's obviously used on this sub, I've seen people with purple flair make their own subs that disagree with red pill, and no end of just raw blue pill style disagreement coming from non-blue pills.
/u/Cyralea pointed this out to us a couple of days ago. It was actually a CSS error that has since been resolved. Long story short, the CSS classes were set to bluepill, but were being overridden by code that makes any flair with the words red, blue, purple, etc. that respective color.
We will flair ban users that insist on using excessively trollish or misleading flairs, so if you see that send us a message and we'll take care of it. That's what we did with SansaCullotte and a few others.
Now this sub's mods are making decisions to entice more blues to show up and we really don't need any more blues. We've got a shit load of them but it doesn't look like it because they keep misbranding themselves as purples and greys.
We judge this by vote patterns, not by counting the number of flairs we see. I think it's better now than it was a month ago, but there's still an issue with bpers getting downvoted pretty hard at times.
Anyway, to address your point in general, I don't feel super comfortable forcing certain flairs on people. If that was truly the user consensus I'd be fine with it, but my guess would be most people here like the freedom to choose for themselves.
[–]Xemnas81 [score hidden]  (0 children)
Well seems like an EC wants to do a recruitment drive for RP, and ban as many BPs out by forcing purples they don't like to turn blue, who will then basically never be listened to purely for having a blue flair.
Come on guys you encourage me to view the world through a hyper-cynical lens and then think I'm going to trust you? Lol, this entire sub had vested interests all along; to give people a little playground to talk in to stop mass banning on the main and slowly proselytise people into the red fold. Now some of the reds are getting unhappy with the way that the ideas are being challenged and deconstructed rather than the blues being straw manned.
[–]dakruNeither 4 points5 points6 points  (2 children)
No. That's not purple. A real purple pill view would be like "Well I agree that women are basically children and that they're essentially useless sociopathic whores in general unless they specifically try not to be but I think the way to get them into bed is show my devotion and servitude anyways and see if they come around." Purples should be nearly "sidebar red pill" and not just people who think attraction matters in dating.
From my perspective, this is just taking the worst of both sides: the bad advice on attraction and dating from mainstream/progressive society (or TBP), with the bad view of women from TRP. If this is purple, then I can't recall seeing anyone (not even one person) who would count as purple.
Why is it that you'd say this is purple, while the opposite (being closer to RP in terms of attraction and dating advice, but closer to BP in terms of overall attitude to women) isn't purple?
Most of the greys here just strike me as people who don't want to look like they've been influenced by others. Grey should be reserved for the truly difficult cases.
I don't know whether I count as a "truly difficult case", but I genuinely find myself in a situation where I have enough disagreements with the world-view of both sides that I would consider it misleading for me to use either label.
[–]CisWhiteMaelstromEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
The bad advice on attraction and dating from mainstream/progressive society (or TBP), with the bad view of women from TRP
How's that a "bad" RP view? It's accurate and clearly stated.
If this is purple, then I can't recall seeing anyone (not even one person) who would count as purple.
That's why I suggested we get rid of the flair.
Why is it that you'd say this is purple, while the opposite (being closer to RP in terms of attraction and dating advice, but closer to BP in terms of overall attitude to women) isn't purple?
Because what RP is more about what the world is like than prescribing ways to be attractive. I forgot who said it but someone on here once put it well by saying that the advice is more RP approved advice than specifically RP. I mean yeah, I'd say put it in the sidebar and make sure the reds are aware that the advice exists but if you read RP and get that as the thing about it that stands out, I'd say you missed the whole course.
I don't know whether I count as a "truly difficult case", but I genuinely find myself in a situation where I have enough disagreements with the world-view of both sides that I would consider it misleading for me to use either label.
I'd consider you a textbook case of blue with zero ambiguity.
[–]dakruNeither 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
How's that a "bad" RP view? It's accurate and clearly stated.
Whether it's accurate or not is a major point of contention on this subreddit, so I don't think you can take it for granted in discussion. As for why it's bad (which I don't consider a separate issue from how accurate it is), that's my personal appraisal. You don't share that opinion, and I understand. I will make a point that you alluded to in your original post, which is that more people call themselves purple because they disagree that women are "essentially useless sociopathic whores in general unless they specifically try not to be" than because they disagree with TRP's view of what women find attractive (and ideas towards pedestalization). This suggests that many people agree with me that that idea is the "bad part" of TRP while the ideas on attraction/pedestalization are not the bad part.
That's why I suggested we get rid of the flair.
I missed that part. That action is consistent with the view you've presented.
Because what RP is more about what the world is like than prescribing ways to be attractive. I forgot who said it but someone on here once put it well by saying that the advice is more RP approved advice than specifically RP.
But "what the world is like" includes ideas of what each gender finds attractive.
I'd consider you a textbook case of blue with zero ambiguity.
This is actually quite fascinating, because I've been "accused" on many occasions of being a redpiller by bluepillers, and now this is the same thing but completely flipped. I think in both cases what I'm encountering is a "well you're not with me, so you're obviously one of them!", without a recognition that I don't really fit into either group. That's not me trying to be a "special snowflake". It's me trying to not misrepresent my ideas with a label that doesn't fit.
Main point of my post: When it comes to gender, dating, and attraction, I disagree with BPers just as often as I disagree with RPers (roughly—I haven't actually tried to tally it up). An anti-feminist who disagrees strongly with the mainstream/progressive/feminist view on gender and attraction is not a "textbook case of blue", in my opinion. Maybe to someone who's so far in the red direction that everyone else looks the same, but using the bluepill flair would lead people to guess my beliefs wrong just as often as using a redpill flair would. That's why my flair is grey.
You might point out that bluepill is just "everything that's not redpill", but I don't see it that way. The idea that "there is redpill, and then there is bluepill, which is everything else" is very redpill-centric thinking. There is not just you on one side and "everyone else" on the other side. At least in practice, there is a specific view associated with bluepill, and I personally don't think it makes any more sense to lump me in with them than to lump me in with you redpillers.
[–]cuponoodlesisbackBlue Pill Woman 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
I don't understand why you get to define what each flair color means. What makes you the authority? I don't get why it matters so much to you.
[–]InTheTsunamiPurple, but I mostly say blue stuff to balance all the red here 2 points3 points4 points  (11 children)
So now we're playing the no true scotsman game, except it's no true red/purple pill. This might be somewhat defensible if the red pill was an internally consistent philosophy, but I don't think it is. The main thing that unites so-called "red pill" beliefs is they're all anti-woman. (If you don't believe me, name three commonly used pro-woman "red pill" talking points.) Symmetrically, the main thing uniting radical feminist beliefs is that they're anti-man. (If you don't believe me, name three commonly used pro-man radfem talking points.) Personally, I try to see reality as it is, and I don't think reality preferentially favors anti-woman or anti-man beliefs. The whole red/blue debate as it's generally encountered on the internet is just one step above a sports team rivalry, ethnic conflict, or other meaningless tribal spat.
(That's not to say there are some very legitimate issues in our society related to how people of different genders relate to one another... I'm just saying those issues are typically discussed in a totally dysfunctional way.)
[–]dakruNeither 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Personally, I try to see reality as it is, and I don't think reality preferentially favors anti-woman or anti-man beliefs.
Most people try to see reality as it is (or think they're seeing reality as it is). That doesn't make you exceptional. (Many redpillers claim that as the defining point of their world-view, and it also doesn't make them exceptional either.)
[–]InTheTsunamiPurple, but I mostly say blue stuff to balance all the red here 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Of course.
[–]CisWhiteMaelstromEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (8 children)
See how do people view posts like this and think the purples are actually purple? This guy hasn't even read the sidebar. The purple flair is absolutely ridiculous.
[–]DietyzPurple Pill 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
I put purple because I agree with TRP theories but not with the emotional side of it and I think the field reports are stupid and pointless. I know TRP says anger is just a phase but I think most of TRP will never actually leave that phase. To me purple is more of a mechanical version of TRP since this sub is meant to be meaningful discussion of theories without all the emotion and whining TRP contains. TRP should look at people the way you look at animals imo, take morality out of the question and just look for behavior patterns. Rather than using it to justify resentment based on the way they perceive what the world should be like
thoughts?
[–]Xemnas81 [score hidden]  (0 children)
Well, that's basically the aim of the 5th phase; they conclude women are sociopathic whores, so they should aspire to be sociopathic too.
'tis why I'm purple. Because unfortunately morality gets in the way of my being red in mannerisms, although the theory is logical.
[–]InTheTsunamiPurple, but I mostly say blue stuff to balance all the red here 0 points1 point2 points  (4 children)
I've been lurking on MRA and red pill blogs for years... just because I haven't read the specific 25 blog posts in the TRP sidebar doesn't mean I'm unfamiliar with the philosophy. If you can point to specific RP concepts you think I'm misunderstanding, I might read a couple more posts, but honestly I have a pretty low opinion of the genre.
If anyone who hasn't spent hours immersing themselves in your specific sub-branch of the philosophy is considered "blue pill" then yeah virtually everyone is going to be "blue pill" my friend.
[–]CisWhiteMaelstromEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (3 children)
just because I haven't read the specific 25 blog posts in the TRP sidebar doesn't mean I'm unfamiliar with the philosophy
See what I mean? Someone doesn't even read the sidebar and thinks he's in between. No. That's called being someone who doesn't even understand the philosophy.
I've been lurking on MRA and red pill blogs for years.
If you can point to specific RP concepts you think I'm misunderstanding
Well we can start with the fact that you think TRP and MRM are the same thing.
[–]InTheTsunamiPurple, but I mostly say blue stuff to balance all the red here 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
Well we can start with the fact that you think TRP and MRM are the same thing.
I didn't say that and I don't believe it. See what I mean? Someone who hasn't even given my comment a careful reading thinks he knows what I believe!
[–]CisWhiteMaelstromEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
So then why do you think lurking on MRM blogs is any substitution for the TRP sidebar?
[–]InTheTsunamiPurple, but I mostly say blue stuff to balance all the red here 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
It's common for blogs to discuss both topics... they blend together. You're reading way too much in to the fact that I used the words "MRA" and "red pill" in a sentence together. Calm down and be a little more alpha ;)
[–]dragoness_leclerqPurple Pill Disney Villain 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
A real purple pill view would be like "Well I agree that women are basically children and that they're essentially useless sociopathic whores in general unless they specifically try not to be but I think the way to get them into bed is show my devotion and servitude anyways and see if they come around."
No. Why do I have to believe that? Being purple is not a literal 50/50 mix of red and blue.
[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic [score hidden]  (0 children)
I picked gray originally because "Non-Red Pill" describes my own philosophy better than "Blue Pill," which based upon both the original Matrix movie and The Red Pill paradigms essentially means "ignorant."
[–]taiboworks 3 points4 points5 points  (7 children)
i think the posts on ppd (this one and the jew conspiracy one) are getting out off hand. i wonder if ppd (by emphasizing being more open than trp and tbp) is getting posters trp (and most subs) won't even tolerate.
[–]CisWhiteMaelstromEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (5 children)
this one and the jew conspiracy one
Oh yeah, this post has sooooo much in common with that one.
[–]taiboworks 1 point2 points3 points  (4 children)
it does in being so off base, example A
A real purple pill view would be like "Well I agree that women are basically children and that they're essentially useless sociopathic whores
i think many red pillers would not even endorse the above view for themselves.
[–]Xemnas81 [score hidden]  (0 children)
Yes this strikes me as needlessly red. I expect more subtlety from an EC.
[–]CisWhiteMaelstromEndorsed Contributor[S] -2 points-1 points0 points  (2 children)
Why wouldn't that be the ideal purple? It's half red pill theory and halfway at odds with red pill. It's the perfect moderate.
[–]taiboworks 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
i have doubts the average red piller would agree with that. why don't you post that on red pill and we can both see.
[–]CisWhiteMaelstromEndorsed Contributor[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I'm already working on a post. I've got a few different ones in mind for the future though that utilize the idea, though obviously I'm harsher and more extreme than your average red.
[–][deleted]  (1 child)
[deleted]
    [–]usernoeight 2 points3 points4 points  (11 children)
    The fundamental problem is that The Red Pill is a collection of ideas, principles, and content, while the The Blue Pill is just...well, Not-RP. People can disagree with RP because there is something substantial there with which to disagree, but people can't really disagree with BP because it really lacks any core ideas with which to disagree. Heck, you can't even agree with BP because what are you agreeing to? Some cherry-picked counterpoints to RP? While subscribers of RP may have their variant interpretations and philosophies, the variance is nowhere near the variance of anyone who would claim BP.
    That's the issue. No one knows what the hell BP is, but they disagree with elements of RP, so they sit on the fence of purple or gray.
    [–]CisWhiteMaelstromEndorsed Contributor[S] -1 points0 points1 point  (9 children)
    You can disagree with blue pill by identifying as a red piller and subscribing to red pill's model of social interaction and life philosophy. Anyone not doing that though should really be identifying as blue pill. You can also agree with blue pill by consciously choosing not to live your life by red pill philosophy. Anyone doing that should adopt blue pill flair.
    The exception to what I said above is again, members of any part of the manosphere other than TRP.
    [–]NitziPromoter of Love, Peace and Equality 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
    Wouldn't it be easier to use the red flair for manosphere? Omega MGTOW with red flair for example.
    [–]usernoeight 0 points1 point2 points  (6 children)
    That's true. People who do not accept red pill are, by definition, blue pill for the most part. However, I'm saying that the breakdown of self-identification comes with no one wanting to self-identify as something that lacks the same structure and content as their opposition. RP has an entire community and philosophy to support its existence, while BP only has a parody community. Who wants to connect their comments to a community (BP) that only seeks to tear down another community (RP), not actually build a community of its own?
    [–]Xemnas81 [score hidden]  (1 child)
    Exactly. I fucking hate the pussy attitude of the TBP sub, but I like most of the blues here even if we rarely agree on stuff. On the other hand TRP scares my daily stable self, and hurts my fee fees, while my hypomanic self is unhinged enough to scare the TRP main kiddies and probably get me arrested if I announced it so I'll advise that they keep the lid on the Pandora's Box.
    Basically I'm purple because there are consequences to my dignity for being blue and consequences to one's criminal record for being fully red as I understand it.
    [–]madscientistloveTolerant as Fuck [score hidden]  (0 children)
    Basically I'm purple because there are consequences to my dignity for being blue and consequences to one's criminal record for being fully red as I understand it.
    I like the way you think.
    [–]CisWhiteMaelstromEndorsed Contributor[S] -1 points0 points1 point  (2 children)
    Blue just means not red. It'd be easier to mark that in the sidebar than to allow this nonsense.
    [–]dakruNeither 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
    Blue just means not red.
    Here's where the disagreement rests. Many people (including me) associate a specific view of gender, attraction, and dating with the label "blue".
    In the sense of "not being red" then yes, I am blue. In the sense of being aligned with the specific view of gender, attraction, and dating that I associate with blue, I am no more blue than I am red.
    [–]madscientistloveTolerant as Fuck [score hidden]  (0 children)
    Many people (including me) associate a specific view of gender, attraction, and dating with the label "blue".
    I agree. I tend to see the blue flaired folks as more liberal, feminist, (sometimes) idealistic, sometimes with a bit of "SJW" flavor. I often have disagreements with black/purple flaired people just as much as red.
    I like our current flair system.
    [–]Xemnas81 [score hidden]  (0 children)
    No TBP is specifically anti-RP misogyny or manipulation techniques such as dread game, and may or may not be for self-improvement; the extreme blue outliers are more towards self-acceptance but most are here are closer to purple than that.
    [–]Raiil 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
    IDK. I'm bluepill here by virtue, more or less, of not being redpill. I don't think bluepill really means much besides 'I disagree with most/all of TRP's fundamental beliefs/their combined worldviews'. Even TRP isn't uniform, I'm not sure why anyone would expect the opposite side to be at all.
    If it'll untwist panties, I'll put on a bp sigil, but I think that says more about you than me. It's not like it's difficult to differentiate between redpill/non redpill in here.
    [–]Xemnas81 [score hidden]  (0 children)
    Right fuck all these bitches beating around bushes, I saw that 2 subs Green Pill Room and Pills Collide were created mostly as circle jerk echo chambers for TRP to feed with some sock puppets including myself, which I'm grateful for even though you can fuck yourself if you try to dangle me on strings, but if PPD is going to refuse to accept shades of grey then it needs to be honest about its intentions because imo apart from the circle-jerky and tiring explaining to all the noobs this place is probably the only one where BP and RP can actually behave like civil individuals to one another.
    Also yes all you people going round with things like 'orange pill trololol' are pissing me off
    [–]HighResolutionSleepCATS DONT KNOW WHAT ITS GONNA BE, FUKKEN WIT A NIGGA LIKE ME -1 points0 points1 point  (2 children)
    Aiyyo, ya niggas must be outcha fucking mind Thinkin dog can't pull another motherfucking rabbit out the hat Nigga I ain't gotta check out my motherfucking sleeves you bitch ass niggas Fuck is y'all niggas Y'all niggas just thinkin I'm sittin around doin nothin? Oh my God, y'all niggas can't be serious
    Where the hood, where the hood, where the hood at? Have that nigga in the cut, where the wood at? Oh, them niggas acting up?!? Where the wolves at? You better bust that if you go'n pull that
    Man, cats don't know what it's gonna be Fuckin with a nigga like me, D-to-the-M-to-the-X Last I heard, y'all niggas was havin sex, with the same sex I show no love, to homo thugs Empty out, reload and throw more slugs How you gonna explain fucking a man? Even if we squashed the beef, I ain't touching ya hand I don't bunk with chumps, for those who been to jail That's the cat with the Kool-Aid on his lips and pumps I don't fuck with niggas that think they broads Only know how to be one way, that's the dog I know how to get down, know how to bite Bark very little, but I know how to fight I know how to chase a cat up in the tree Man, I give y'all niggas the b'iness for fucking with me, is you crazy?!
    Once a song, I come through, guns is drawn Blam blam, lungs are gone, sons will mourn From dusk till dawn, nighttime belongs to the dog On the street passed midnight, look for 'em in the morgue Don't play with these cats cuz I ain't got nothing to say to these cats For the mothers that really do love em, please pray for these cats Cuz I know niggas is hardheaded but I ain't got the patience Don't want me havin no patience turn into more patients More trips to ICU cause I see you Tryna get away with shit a real nigga wouldn't do Where my dogs at? (RIGHT HERE) See them niggas? (RIGHT WHERE?!?) GET EM BOY! (RIGHT THERE) That's how we do... (AIIGHT THEN) This is for my dogs, this is for my dogs YO, WHERE WE AT BABY?!? (CREEPIN THROUGH THE FOG) From then till now, don't ask me how Know that we gon roll like them niggas and hit every block on the job
    I get tapes doing times, stomp niggas like grapes making wine Five CD's with mad rhymes Don't hit me with that positive shit, I know you lying You really wanna stop niggas from dying? Stop niggas from trying I cuz I ain't really got that time to waste And I thought I told you to get these fucking bums out my face Looking at you in your grill, I might be nice to cut Once I split ya ass in two, you'll be twice as butt Yeah, you right, I know ya style: pussy, cause I'm fucking it Since we all right here, you hold my dick while he sucking it Motherfucker, don't you know you'll never come near me Shove ya head up ya ass, have you seein shit clearly Never heard that D be running, cause D be gunning I beat my dick and bust off in ya eye so you can see me coming Empty clips and shells are what I leave behind And if they get me with the joint, they hit me with a three-to-nine
    [–]NitziPromoter of Love, Peace and Equality 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
    I think I understand what you mean even if its a bit vague, but I guess I agree with you.
    Also how do you explain the lack of blue pillers in here?
    [–]hyperrrealy-you too 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
    Well said.
    [–]NitziPromoter of Love, Peace and Equality 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
    I would change the flairs completely.
    We could use them to quickly show each other where we stand on several issues. Thus we are better understood and can understand others faster.
    And we could include our Myers-Briggs type for further identification, even if its somewhat bullshit.
    Example flair: INTJ R/N/N/B/R H/M
    Each letter answers one question. We would agree on what the questions are and in what order. For example: What is your stance on sexual market place / feminism / MRM / Sex Positivity / Hypergamy / whatever and the last to to describe your sexual orientation, hetero monogamy in this case.
    Letter clarification R = red, B = Blue, N = neutral, don't care
    [–]Fuschia19avoiding responsibility 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
    i have a grey flair because my beliefs are a different combination
    [–]mcconnelldemasiNeither. I can see just fine without drugs. 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
    The problem I have with the blue pill is the fundemental meaning of the name. The red pill is based on the movie "The Matrix". The red pill represents reality and the blue represents a fantasy. The blue pill is something that red pillers label others who have not "awaken". Labeling yourself blue pill is admitting that your beliefs aren't true.
    [–]cuponoodlesisbackBlue Pill Woman 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
    I changed my flair just for you sweetie ;).
    [–]wont_tell_i_refuse 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
    I ain't got no pill
    Bad bitches is the only thing that I fill
    [–]GridReXXProfessor Jigglypuff [score hidden]  (0 children)
    I just don't give a shit about adopting "pill culture."
    I can debate the topics without identifying with one or the other or the middle.
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