全 34 件のコメント

[–]ChuggoBuggo 34ポイント35ポイント  (1子コメント)

I can't speak much to what makes something a "religious" kind of belief system, but there is a parallel here.

I guess it's the idea that a person can get away with anything because they're "saved/forgiven." I see this same mentality in anti-GG all over the place.

Randi Harper is an anti-harassment activist with a history of harassment/doxing. Brianna Wu sells games with characters that have ridiculous body images. Chris Kluwe doesn't report statutory rapes committed by team mates. It goes on and on with a lot of these people, but everyone seems to think it's fine because "they're feminists?" I guess that's the modern day equivalent of "salvation."

That was what drove me away from religion. The sheer number of people that would engage in really awful behavior and then act like they have some kind of moral standing to judge me because they believe in "the one true god."

It's the same shit I see in anti-GG.

What's really creepy is that once they get to that point, they seem to target the same things as the overly religious. They don't like seeing scantily clad women. They don't like violent imagery. They don't like sexual imagery. All those lustful thoughts need to be purged from our dirty little minds.

The sad part is their actions seem to suggest they're just as fallible as they believe us to be. Actually, they often strike me as violating their own "codes of ethics" more egregiously than anyone in GG. Plenty of them seem to engage in pretty constant harassment and shaming despite claiming to fight against harassment and shaming.

Kind of reminds me of the religious pastor that's constantly railing about the dangers of homosexuality while he's out in shady bathroom stalls sucking stranger's dicks.

[–]Ergheis 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

The word you're aiming for is "justification." You can do a lot with that, and it should be the defining word for quite a bit of what's going on here, and in pretty much everything in our society post globalization.

[–]BrimshaeSun Tzu VII:35 / Survived #GGinDC 2015 / Dined #GGinNC 2015 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

Anon's Cult of SJW post. Now with plain text!

“I was pretty strong into the “social justice” crowd. Looking back, that whole thing seems like a cult. It lures in vulnerable people, especially young people. People who are going through puberty and trying to figure out their sexuality. People who might be dealing with disability or mental illness, or those whose family is breaking up.

It sucks them in by spoon feeding the idea that they are special and worthy. It guilts them if they don’t treat everybody else as special and worthy too. It starts forcing you to see everybody as being in a hierarchy Then it gets you to alienate yourself from your friends. Your friends sometime makes racist/sexist jokes? Cut her out of your life. Got any conservative friends? Cut them out of your life. Got any friends who are white straight men? Cut them out of your life. They are oppressors. Constantly berate people if they slip up, because everybody else must be held to the same standard that you are and no other ways of thinking are ”right”.

Then it tells you to start criticising and trying to change your family. It tells you to “call out” any little thing they do “wrong”. It warps your perception until you are a victim and constantly on the defence. It breaks you off from everybody and makes you feel awful for things you cannot control, and then, if you disagree or start questioning, it cuts you off from the only support you have left, and you are attacked and viciously berated. Maybe if you grovel enough they’ll let you be redeemed and come back, but if you will never be allowed to forget the one mistake you made.

Eventually I found anti-SJW blogs, where people were actively critiquing these concepts and the SJW culture. Originally I felt nothing but hatred for them, but then the words started to sink in. I started questioning whether this was really “right”. I saw how so many people leading the crowd were hugely hypocritical. I realised that I had been causing the problems in my life, not “oppression”. I apologised to my family for how I had been acting and I am lucky that they still supported me. I had lost a lot of friends, including some people I was very close to. It has taken me a long time to rebuild those relationships. It was a very bad period of my life, and one that took me a lot of effort to drag myself away from.”

[–]StillSearching11 16ポイント17ポイント  (3子コメント)

Agree, I just call it a cult instead of religion.

[–]oconnomiyaki 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

A cult, outside of the pop-culture term, is what religious people call religions they find absurd to combat cognitive dissonance.

'Scientology is a cult, so it's okay to ridicule their crazy beliefs. But believing in an omnipotent overlord who created the world in seven days and flooded the whole thing because he was like "Do over!" is totally okay because that's a religion.'

[–]ThaneOfTas [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That may have been your experience, however I've always identified cults by how they treat their members, If a member of a church/group can leave without recriminations or excommunication and if giving money is voluntary then it probably isn't a cult, oh and if people are all dressed in white with weird sounding names and they are asking for your social security number then its probably a cult too haha.

[–]Pkeod 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Cult and religion are the same things but something called a cult has more negative connotation while religion still has an air of legitimacy to common everyday people.

Ideologues go on and on about the truth. They don't care about the facts if they are inconvenient they get pushed aside - it's why they seem so immune to getting exposed, in the same way believers in a religion still believe despite massive evidence their holy books are fully of insane contradictions and so on. Truth to ideologues such as those who are radical with social justice treat truth as a religious concept. They have the truth, their dogma, their presuppositions, and they only want facts which support them in building their narrative. It's little different from creationists who start with the conclusion and look at what data they can find to back up what they believe. In the same way religious people see the world as a facade and of the devil, the ideologues see the world as a social construct and of the patriarchy. This is sinful. This is problematic. This is retrograde. This is satanic. They both ultimately come from human nature toward altruism, which makes people more vulnerable to mind traps like religions or ideologies that are presented in a way which is righteous and for the greater good, but ultimately are ignorant and hurtful.

[–]xu85 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

Don't forget the parallels with Original Sin in Christianity. SJW have supplanted this ancient notion if being born into sin with the sin of racism and colonialism. Thus good, new pious people are expected to spend their entire lives repenting cleansing themselves of this ancestral guilt. To go against this or to challenge this is idea is to proclaim yourself a heretic and be completely out grouped and ostracised.

[–]yutt0 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm almost clear of cis-thetans.

[–]GoonZL 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

I have been saying this for a long time.

My experience differs from that of most of you. Modern day Christianity is very tame compared to Islam, which is the religion I have grown up with and have extensive knowledge of. The attempts at controlling every aspect of life by the SJW ideology is similar to that of Islam. I see parallels every day and find it disheartening that the majority of people can't seem to notice.

I have always maintained that people like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and the late Christopher HItchens fight a losing battle, when they accuse religions of countless atrocities and think that by eliminating the source, we may succeed at making the future better, This ignores the fact that humans have been creating religions since time immemorial. There's no indication that if we weaken the current religions, people will not create new ones. Indeed, new cults and religion-like ideologies have been coming to life steadily.

By abandoning a traditional religion, people flock to new ideologies to fill the void in their lives. They may flock to something like New Age spirituality, or they may transform activism into a religion. There are animal rights activists and there is PETA, which is nothing short of a cult. There are people advocating for equal rights and then there's feminism, which is turning into a dangerous cult before our eyes.

Who knows, someday some people may turn GamerGate into one of those cults too.

I used to think that people in the past were stupid to allow religions to grow and become what they are today. But I'm seeing the same happen again in this day and age. We aren't smarter than out ancestors.

[–]kalphis 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Modern day Christianity is very tame compared to Islam...

They can still be as bad as each other when there's enough ignorance being disseminated in its people. Ignorance of science and logical reasoning is what makes any type religion or ideology regressive.

[–]rms141 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ignorance of science and logical reasoning is what makes any type religion or ideology regressive.

Christians have been scientists since science was invented, and in fact helped solidify original and contemporary understandings of what science is and should be. Names like Galileo and Newton should not be separated from their religion when discussing their contributions to scientific understanding.

[–]sunnyta 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Modern day Christianity is very tame compared to Islam

they all have the potential to be just as bad as one another. it totally depends on the individual, but the judeo-christian religions lend themselves to hardcore traditionalism more than anything

[–]pieuvre776 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've also been saying this for quite a while. It really burns me to see people placing the sole blame on religion for other people just being assholes.

I would disagree with you a bit on turning activism into a religion - that's probably true for some, maybe a majority, but I've met atheists who manage to not fall into that trap. I have no idea what the proportions are, though.

I agree with you in general, though. I've been around the block a few times, religious and no, and I've also dealt with a number of truly awful people (usually personality disordered) and the common trait they all have is using whatever existing apparatus is most convenient to exert control over people. They don't care what the trappings of the apparatus are.

[–]NeonMan 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

The defining characteristic lf a religion of any sort is the rejection of any criticism or dissent.

My usual rule to check who is (probably) being right is that dissent is OK.

[–]Marsmar-LordofMars 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's rather amusing to see these feminists who are also atheists. They haven't done away with the belief in an all encompassing, all powerful, yet completely unprovable and seemingly horribly incompetent invisible force, they've simply replaced the word God with Patriarchy and cited their gender studies degree, a realm of academia with less intellectual merit than even religious studies.

Religion or not, feminism has certainly turned into a sacred cow of society. With the growing evidence of how far removed from reality it's become and worse yet, with it's growing number of anti-science beliefs (gender or even biological sex is a social construct) and practices (mobbing after the likes of Matt Taylor, Tim Hunt, Dawkins, Brian Cox, etc for saying/doing things they don't like) it's become apparent this sacred cow must be sent to the slaughter house of rigorous unapologetic scrutiny. Not many sacred cows come out as anything more than scraps after that and I don't think this new religion would fare much better.

In the very least, I don't trust sides that it's biggest figureheads refuse to debate on what it's talking about. I have seen creationists have a formal debate against evolution and I have seen climate change skeptics hold a formal debate against climate science, I have not seen any feminist hold a formal debate on any of the things they've been screeching about over the last decade. When even the likes of Ken "No amount of evidence will change my mind" Ham stands above you when it comes to intellectual honesty, you have some major problems.

[–]DwarfGate 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've been saying this since the beginning. Look at how the elites control and use their followers; Zoe Quinn had followers dox and take down TFYC, Randi Harper had followers attack 73 year old Anne Rice. Sound familiar? Kinda like Charles Manson having his followers kill people? Or Jim Jones having his followers migrate to a self-built actual hugbox (whereupon he and his followers forced themselves to drink cyanide Kool-Aid)?

It's all hyper-religious bullshit and we can only hope when the whole thing comes crashing down nobody innocent dies.

[–]shitpostingscumbagGawker recruiter 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I remember a time when I scoffed upon hearing people say, in reference to religion and secularism, "people who don't believe in something will believe in anything".

They were right all along! Most people have a religion-shaped hole in their brains, and if you take traditional religion away, they'll just find something else to fill it with.

[–]kalphis 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Reason and knowledge keeps faith in check. It's good to have a moral compass for social well-being. It's scary to see that there are those without it at all.

[–]Yesofcoursenaturally 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd agree with the idea that Social Justice/RadFem is a religion, and I lean towards the view that it's not just a religion, but a cult.

SJ/Rads have dogma, that much is clear - dogma about right/wrong, good/bad, metaphysical views about how the world works, how humans work, things that go off into the realm of philosophy and metaphysics.

But I think what kicks them from 'religion' to 'cult' is that questioning their dogma is forbidden. To question it is to suggest that it can be questioned and may be false, and that's unforgivable - these guys don't have a mental space allotted for 'individual who questions or possibly rejects some of our views, but they are a good person nonetheless who is trying to improve the world as they can'. Seriously, it is vastly easier to find hardcore devout Christians talking about good (if very wrong) muslims or jews or atheists than it is to find SJWs who say 'This person rejects fundamental parts of our views about sex or race or justice, but they're still good people'. It's also vastly easier to find hardcore religious apologists who admit to the in principle possibility that they are wrong than it is to find SJWs who cop to the same.

[–]mansplain 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly this, their belief structure needs to be framed as, and proven to be, religious in nature.

[–]cuteman 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

DBA works better than SJW.

Dogmatic bullying Asshole.

Dogma satisfies the quasi religious element. Bullying fits perfectly because they actively seek out people to badger. Asshole, because, well, they're assholes.

Someone twit that shit. I don't get on the line often

[–]T0kenAussie 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You don't need to believe in God to live your life by an ideology. Unfortunately there are a lot of people these days who are more extreme with there ideologies on the internet.

It's like a paradox, the more free thought that came out on the Internet the more close minded some groups on the Internet became.

[–]ExamplePrime 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've been saying this for who knows how long. Feminism has been religious as long as I've been aware of it.

From indoctrination to it always being correct to zealous attacks on non-believers to the final stage of 'requiring' it be involved in EVERY part of your life.

[–]jpz719 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's a fanatical cult, dedicated to the concept of laziness. And that's fuckin sad, mainly because I think most religious establishments are little more than people shouting at eachother of which buttock of their particular deity was sacrificed first for no particularily explainable reason.

[–]aprobo 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

I'd like to add one more:

6) Unlike actual sciences, (but quite like religion) learning feminism doesn't give you any super powers. You can't use it to create results like you could if you studied chemistry, physics, mathematics, or even psychology and economics.

If you are learning a subject that describes the world, you should be able to make better predictions, and then use those predictions to create awesome things. It's not just that The Patriarchy is hard to define, it's that it's a hypothesis which doesn't make predictions. It's not a scientific hypothesis. The Patriarchy's main purpose is as a curiosity stopper -- "there's a wage gap? clearly the patriarchy" -- it's an excuse used to avoid additional analysis. It's a lot like Élan vital and phlogiston. If you haven't read Yudkowsky on the topic of false models, you should. It's great.

[–]Steely_Tulip[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

I would disagree with you on that. The theory of the patriarchy predicts that people will do anything to discredit, disprove or oppress you (unless you're a white male), in order to protect the patriarchy.

There has to be some model for that kind of recursive trap

[–]aprobo 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

The theory of the patriarchy predicts that people will do anything to discredit, disprove or oppress you (unless you're a white male), in order to protect the patriarchy.

Okay, I'm happy to debate this. I think it will show you why the patriarchy is so hard to define, as any specific version is easy to disprove.

First I want to point out that while it's impossible to fully prove a scientific hypothesis, it is possible to falsify a hypothesis, which is what I'll do here. If you find yourself succumbing to the (natural, normal) impulse to say "no! don't test those those predictions!" please provide examples of your own along with the reason why you've chosen those examples... Namely, if you don't like these predictions, but you do like other predictions, you're going to have to explain the logic behind which examples are Patriarchal predictions and which are not.

So, let's start. Imagine a world where people will do anything to discredit, disprove, or oppress women. Really picture it, imagine it's real. Treat it like a novel you're writing and think of some of the worst, most oppressive things that would be happening to women. Got a couple? So do I.

Surely there's nothing more oppressive than severely limiting someone's freedoms by locking them in jail. Okay! Great! The Patriarchy hypothesis predicts most prisoners are female. Let's just look it up and we should have great evidence for the patriarchy... damn. ~90% of inmates are male.

Hmm... well... I think I remember from US History that one of the things you use slaves for is the front line of war. Maybe there aren't enough women to go to jail because they were used as human shields in war! It wouldn't make sense to protect the oppressed, right? Great! This will fix the previous failure even! Just a quick google and it'll be solved! damn. ~99% of war injuries and deaths happen to men

Okay, but at minimum if you're oppressing a group you'd make sure they didn't get the good stuff. I mean, getting the good stuff is the whole point! Great! The Patriarchy hypothesis predicts most luxury good purchases are made by men! Let's just look it up and we should have great evidence for the patriarchy... damn. 60% of luxury goods are bought by women.

Okay, but surely you wouldn't vote for these people you're discrediting, disapproving of, and oppressing. Right? Great! The Patriarchy hypothesis predicts the number of elected female politicians is near zero! Okay! Let's just look up the numbers and we'll have proved that The Patriarchy exists! Oh... it's 20%? damn

Okay, enough of this. I think that's sufficient to thoroughly disprove that formulation of The Patriarchy Hypothesis. If you'd like to play again, I'm game... just remember to use a formulation that predicts the above inequalities, rather than predicts their absence. My prediction for that is we'll rapidly end up with a toothless version I'll lovingly call The Patriarchy of the Gaps.

[–]Steely_Tulip[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

That's great, i think i'll save this for future arguments.

The problem is if you're show this to a feminist they will 1) accuse you of 'mansplaining', 2) declare that your facts have been cherry-picked, or are false, or somehow prove the presence of institutionalized sexism... "60% of luxury goods are purchased by women? They think they can just buy you off with shiny objects!" etc etc.

So the mere fact that you have created a well-supported rational argument against the patriarchy is itself proof of the patriarchy in action :s

[–]aprobo [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

declare that your facts have been cherry-picked, or are false, or somehow prove the presence of institutionalized sexism

The beauty of science is that you're allowed to cherry pick when falsifying. That's the whole point. A hypothesis has to work everywhere. If I tell you that the boiling point of titanium at sea level is 3560 K that has to be true in Peru just as surely as it has to be true in France... any evidence to the contrary has to be fatal, or else it's not science.

If you're going to use this in argument, the main point I was making above is that if you look at the actual bottom of society (prisons, mental institutions, drug addicts, unemployed, homeless, migrant workers, etc) it's almost entirely men, and that seems incompatible with almost every formulation of The Patriarchy Hypothesis I've seen. If you state it like that I think it'll have the highest likelihood of getting through.

So the mere fact that you have created a well-supported rational argument against the patriarchy is itself proof of the patriarchy in action :s

LOL. Finally we have clear evidence for The Patriarchy! :p

[–]Alzael [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

LOL. Finally we have clear evidence for The Patriarchy! :p

Sadly,that actually is a real idea. Feminists call it Lewis' Law.

[–]aprobo [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The greatest trick the Patriarchy ever pulled was convincing the world it didn't exist (source)

[–]YetAnotherCommenter 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Socio-political movement" and "(quasi-) religious belief system" aren't mutually-exclusive categories.

The US religious right is a good example of this - sure, its actually a group of closely-related religious belief systems working together on shared political goals, but its fair to say for the purposes of the argument it counts as a belief system AND a social-political movement.

[–]mnemosyne-0000#BotYourShield -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Archive links for this post:


I am Mnemosyne, goddess of memory. I remember so you don't have to.