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Bitcoin whitepaper: 9 pages Bitcoin Lightning Network whitepaper: 59 pages (and growing!) (twitter.com)

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[–]thorjag[S] 11ポイント12ポイント  (12子コメント)

Bitcoins whitepaper doesn't provide many details of how the protocol operates. It is great to understand how it achieves distributed consensus, and is what got me hooked on Bitcoin 4 years ago. It took a long time to understand the inner workings of it though, and it was difficult back then to find good documentation on the protocol.

The lightning network is IMO the most interesting protocol since Bitcoin and I can't wait to see it deployed! The 59 page whitepaper is great if you want to understand the details of how it works. It is a lot better than the previous ~20-page whitepaper. Hopefully they will produce a ~10-page whitepaper that explains the greatness of the protocol, just like Satoshi's whitepaper.

If you are interested in seeing some of the protocol actually work in practice you can check out /u/rustyreddit work so far. https://github.com/elementsproject/lightning.

[–]statoshi 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

It sounds like we can expect to see a single page abstract eventually: https://twitter.com/starkness/status/624052216999981057

[–]thorjag[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Great!

Meanwhile I also recommend Rusty's improvements on LN, that eliminates the need to fix tx malleability and may get LN deployed much faster. https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/blob/master/doc/deployable-lightning.pdf

[–]TweetsInCommentsBot 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

@starkness

2015-07-23 03:03 UTC

@lopp @ryanxcharles Single page abstract also in the works.

This message was created by a bot

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[–]mike_hearnMike Hearn - Bitcoin Expert 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

The Lightning network doesn't specify many details either: for example, what the replacement for Bitcoin addresses would be.

[–]thorjag[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Isn't that more of a UX question? The whitepaper explains the protocol and that it is sound, wouldn't you agree?

[–]jstolfi 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Satoshi paper explained what addresses were. The LN will replace them by something else, and the draft paper does not specify what that something is.

More importantly, Satoshi's paper described a workable protocol, and he provided a complete implementation that could be used immediately by anyone who cared. The LN is still not a complete design of a workable network, and even if it is implemented, it will not be usable until most bitcoin users have adopted it and locked their bitcoins in it.

This last detail must be the reason why the Blockstream devs want the bitcoin network to become unusable for person-to-person payments as soon as possible.

[–]goalkeeperr 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

uh uh, did Satoshi's white paper specify that?/

[–]sQtWLgK 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

It did not. Addresses are a relatively new thing. Back then you would pay to pubkeys or even, oddly enough, to IP addresses (through ephemeral pubkeys).

[–]ciphera -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

So they should stop working on it to not threaten your one and only solution to scalability?

[–]DrinkingHaterade -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's because the lightning network is vaporware for a long while.

[–]marcus_of_augustus 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

Bitcoin is a layer-0 protocol and it should be simple.

Trying to cram every fan-boy feature into a low-level protocol is bad engineering and a rooky mistake of every wannabe system architect.

Having complexity on higher layers is perfectly sound and practised engineering.

[–]thorjag[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Exactly. Its like saying we shouldn't have TCP because its too complex and IP works fine as it is.

[–]xeroc 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

We shouldn't have TCP because its too complex and IP works fine as it is.

LOL!

[–]xeroc 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Should we compare quality instead of quantity?

[–]sQtWLgK 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes, we should.

The main problem with quality is that it is not measurable. In most cases, it is not even comparable.This is why qualitative means what it means.

What we can say, as long as the 59 pages are well written, is that the Lightning protocol is very well documented.

[–]caveden 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

ha, and I thought the point of the Twitt was to mock the over-complexity of LN. Why should it need 59 pages, if Bitcoin itself can be very well explained in less than 10?

Notably people take different perspective on stuff.

[–]xeroc 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

What we can say, as long as the 59 pages are well written, is that the Lightning protocol is very well documented.

These are two different things and depend on the "audience". If you have tech-firm readers you should go into details which will result in a lengthy description.

For non-tech readers, you short focus on the concept not exposing any technical implementation stuff.

It seems the authors of the lightning whitepaper want to achieve both and the results look promising so far.

Anyway, comparing this with Bitcoin's whitepaper is just stupid IMHO.

[–]statoshi 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's hard to fit a quality comparison into 140 characters :-)

[–]GibbsSamplePlatter 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think he means either is good or bad.

Just shows how simple Bitcoin is, and how well-done the original paper was.

[–]ToroArrr 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Horse and buggy construction manual : 9 pages

Bugatti Veyron construction manual : 59 pages and growing

[–]herzmeister -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Let's Keep Bitcoin Simple Stupid!

[–]sQtWLgK 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because for every complex decentralization problem there is a solution that is clear, simple and centralizedly wrong.

[–]GibbsSamplePlatter 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

BitcoinSQL is pretty fast and easy.

[–]TweetPoster 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

@lopp:

2015-07-23 01:33:22 UTC

Bitcoin whitepaper: 9 pages bitcoin.org Bitcoin Lightning Network whitepaper: 59 pages (and growing!) lightning.network

[Mistake?] [Suggestion] [FAQ] [Code] [Issues]

[–]Methylfenidaat -4ポイント-3ポイント  (3子コメント)

They should stop writing the manual and write some code instead.

[–]ncsakira -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

you know that just because the backgroud is white, it doesn't make it a whitepaper. Right?