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[–]TimetravelerKihot MILF in your area - chat now! no login required! 274ポイント275ポイント  (141子コメント)

Hahahaha "Why don't you get a sex change, you're obviously a straigt white male"

Aaaah, the tumblr crowd, such a funny little circle.

[–]Meowsticgoesnya0018-1877-0794 3DS Friend code, remember to give me yours 139ポイント140ポイント  (140子コメント)

"You're just jealous of the real girls like Anita and Wu" is an example of hate mail I've gotten from AGG folk.

(I don't know if that was the exact wording, that one was early on and I really don't remember it much)

[–]BlockPuppetCuck of /r/Polygon 20ポイント21ポイント  (139子コメント)

Real 'girl' like Wu

[–]Meowsticgoesnya0018-1877-0794 3DS Friend code, remember to give me yours 53ポイント54ポイント  (137子コメント)

She's still a girl, even if she's trans.

Although to the person who sent me that, I wonder if they regret sending it, since they clearly were trying to be transphobic to me.

[–]Aurondarklord 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's relevant to mock the logic of someone who thinks those who disagree with them are really men and should get a sex change, and then cites Wu as a "real girl". When gender = ideology to these people, their definition of trans is warped enough to deserve ridicule.

[–]eyeballfrog 26ポイント27ポイント  (5子コメント)

It is reasonable to say that a trans woman is not a real woman. That is not necessarily a negative. A prosthetic leg is not a real leg, but this is not considered a negative.

[–]Meowsticgoesnya0018-1877-0794 3DS Friend code, remember to give me yours 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

This all depends on how you define man/woman and gender. Ultimately definitions and groups are made by us people and therefore aren't set in stone, and since we already have a word for people with x genitals (sex, male, female, intersex), it seems reasonable that we use man and woman to refer to gender identity, especially since it helps so many people.

[–]BaronPartypants 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's amazing how people can get so caught up on the labels we put on things even though they don't necessarily change the nature of that thing.

Whether or not you decide to call a trans person by their preferred pronoun, they're still the same person. They just prefer that you refer to them in that way.

Whether you agree with that pronoun or not, we do know that it can cause tans people distress when people don't use their preferred pronoun. Saying "you're [male/female], stop kidding yourself" obviously has a long track record of not working.

The whole things reminds me of arguments against gay marriage. I don't care how you define marriage. It doesn't change the reality of the situation.

[–]sunnyta [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

marriage predates religion as well

[–]Reagan_on_a_Raptor -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The reality of the situation is they get butt hurt and violent when you call a chick with a dick sir. Beyond that they expect everyone who isn't a trans to bow to there feelings. I don't give a fuck what you think you are if you got a dick go to the men's restroom if you have a vagina use the woman's. Just because you feel a certain way doesn't make it true. You are a fucking abnormality. So why do I have to cater to your feelings. What's next? I feel more like a black guy than I do as a white man, so I'm going to start having everyone call me African American. Also I better get affirmative action now too cause I say I'm black now and if you don't give it to me, that's transracialphobia.

[–]sunnyta [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

biologically, no, but socially and for all intents and purposes, yes

a "real" woman or man is a nebulous concept anyway in the particular meaning meowstic was talking about

[–]BlockPuppetCuck of /r/Polygon 25ポイント26ポイント  (100子コメント)

I come from a scientific background, so gender = sex to me.

[–]Meowsticgoesnya0018-1877-0794 3DS Friend code, remember to give me yours 2ポイント3ポイント  (71子コメント)

Well the APA disagrees here http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf

[–]TheGreatRayPape 25ポイント26ポイント  (6子コメント)

They can't even get their own shit straight on autism. I'd prefer they solve that problem first before trying to convince me that 80% of trans people being male-to-female is a statistically irrelevant phenomenon.

[–]EAT_DA_POOPOO 13ポイント14ポイント  (3子コメント)

You'd also expect the number of trans people to be consistent across cultures, which is it isn't.

[–]sunnyta [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

considering many cultures are hostile towards trans people, i'm not surprised. it's similar with homosexuality if you consider how few arab people openly identify as gay

[–]EAT_DA_POOPOO [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Those aren't the only cultures with a discrepancy, I would invite you to take a look into the "ladyboy" culture of Thailand.

[–]trollradar 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's hard to determine that when a lot of cultures will murder you for expressing the wish to change your gender.

[–]Dapperdan814 21ポイント22ポイント  (28子コメント)

Remember that story a month or so back stating how most peer reviewed studies these days are grossly and purposefully inaccurate because they've been coming up with the conclusion first, and then tweaking the facts to fit that conclusion (instead of the other way around which is the appropriate method)? Yeah. I wouldn't take any .org's word for it anymore until some cold hard research is done. But with the way things currently are, we'll never see it, because scientific facts and figures are too misogynistic/racist/problematic for the narrative.

When reality for these people is revealed to be too "troublesome", they simply try to change reality rather than cope with it.

[–]Meowsticgoesnya0018-1877-0794 3DS Friend code, remember to give me yours 3ポイント4ポイント  (27子コメント)

The APA is the main psychological association in America, and creates the DSM, a diagnostic manual used by most every psychologist.

And it's not just them, it's also top tier medical universities such as John Hopkins http://web.jhu.edu/LGBTQ/transintro.html

[–]Iconochasm 21ポイント22ポイント  (10子コメント)

JH stopped doing sex change surgeries after realizing it did little-to-nothing to improve life satisfaction, and that 80% of trans people simply stopped identifying as such after 10 years. Note that I do not agree with /u/BlockPuppet.

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]Versac 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    JH stopped doing sex change surgeries after realizing it did little-to-nothing to improve life satisfaction, and that 80% of trans people simply stopped identifying as such after 10 years.

    This is almost the exact inverse of true. Reassignment surgeries very reliably result in improved life satisfaction - the factors that worryingly see little improvement are suicide risk and incidence rate of other psychological dysfunctions. And to the best of my knowledge, that 80% number is a very specific stat taken from adolescents; it's not representative of non-developmental psychology, and certainly doesn't apply to adult post-op cases.

    [–]Meowsticgoesnya0018-1877-0794 3DS Friend code, remember to give me yours 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    That was done back during Paul Mchugh times, he's the dude who thinks that gays caused the catholic child molestation case, and isn't liked by most anyone in the field.

    Current John Hopkins supports transitioning for trans individuals.

    [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–]Dapperdan814 24ポイント25ポイント  (12子コメント)

      And the APA is no stranger when it comes to stirring controversy. Saying "they're the APA" as if that dismisses them from any form of corruption, in order to give yourself a heightened position of morality for the sake of debate, is just being ignorant.

      [–]Meowsticgoesnya0018-1877-0794 3DS Friend code, remember to give me yours 2ポイント3ポイント  (11子コメント)

      Can you explain why pretty much every other major medical organization also supports transgender identities as well?

      Saying "they're the APA" as if that dismisses them from any form of corruption, in order to give yourself a heightened position of morality for the sake of debate, is just being ignorant.

      Yes, cause citing that the large majority of medical experts think x in a medical debate is wrong.

      [–]finalremix 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Fun fact (edit: more a non-sequitor, in hindsight): the NIMH are steering away from the DSM, since it tends to just rely on labels to dictate treatment.

      E.g., http://www.naasca.org/2013-Articles/060913-PsychiatryDivided-DSM-5Denounced.htm

      So, the DSM is contested. Also, behavior analysts don't bother with that crap. People aren't cars, so an APA Chilton manual isn't warranted.

      [–]alljunks 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Well the APA disagrees here http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf

      Not really. The listed definition of gender states that it relates to attitudes regarding sex. Are the assumptions those attitudes based on correct? Doesn't say, nor is there a criteria that would support any suggestion that one is so long as the definition of sex is biological status(in short: if they overstep those simple bounds, they're kind of definitively inaccurate). Likewise, "gender identity" is a tautology: the gender someone chooses to identify as. While the definitions show a capability of being aware of how someone identifies,there is no scientific support for "this is what this gender actually is" nor "what this person associates with sexuality is true". Pretenses towards scientific understanding are only applied to sex; after that, you're stuck with "here's what people think about sex and what they may think about themselves because of it." In that context, the simplest use of gender is the most accurate: loose references to someone's sex. Also probably not very useful outside of a medical or scientific context.

      After that you have popular and unpopular inaccurate(guys need to be tough, just because!) or unrefined(80% of this sex is like this, so I'll just say they all are) statements about sex which make up "gender", but that's the space people are wrestling in when talking about gender. Which poorly supported ideas or generalities will have the strongest footing. Rejecting the fight blows off the assumptions people make and everyone would be free to do as they pleased without confusing those around them... but it would also kill gender itself. Also, while gender comes with all kinds of associations to play with, people haven't actually gained the ability to change their sexuality yet. People with that goal remain stuck, and as long as that's the case, protecting gender assumptions so that they can still have achievable goals associated with sexual identity may be preferable for some to the alternative.

      [–]BlockPuppetCuck of /r/Polygon 1ポイント2ポイント  (26子コメント)

      The ICD-10-CM and the DSM-5 adequetly cover why social science (psychology) < hard science (medicine).

      [–]Meowsticgoesnya0018-1877-0794 3DS Friend code, remember to give me yours 0ポイント1ポイント  (20子コメント)

      But the DSM-V is created by the APA, and supports transgender identities http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf

      If the DSM is your argument against psychology, you're going to have a very rough time.

      [–]BlockPuppetCuck of /r/Polygon 6ポイント7ポイント  (19子コメント)

      This is because of pressure from trans groups injecting their agenda into this 'science'. Hard science doesn't change based on the whims of outsiders, science is true regardless of whether or not you agree.

      [–]Meowsticgoesnya0018-1877-0794 3DS Friend code, remember to give me yours 0ポイント1ポイント  (18子コメント)

      If the huge anti vaccine lobby and anti global warming lobbies have little to no effect on scientists, I doubt the relatively small pressure from transgender groups can have such a big impact.

      Hard science doesn't change based on the whims of outsiders, science is true regardless of whether or not you agree.

      Yes of course, which is why people who deny science like homophobes and transphobes are wrong. How is the idea that pre natal hormonal disorders can cause a brain (which is affected by hormones at a later stage than most of the body) to develop differently from the body so hard to accept?

      [–]oldmanbees 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Just a point of order: The APA has relinquished its "transex is a mental disorder stance," but they haven't done that based on anything approaching a scientific consensus (or even majority opinion) that that's true. They've done it because a rough consensus they have reached is that they're not nearly sure on the topic, haven't collected nearly enough germane data, to say what transex is, but they do feel that there is the possibility of a harmful, damaging stigma if they keep transex in the "illness" bin.

      They're not taking a "we know" stance, it's a "at present, we don't know what we don't know, so we're not going to continue to maintain a positive claim."

      The end of it is, they don't "disagree." They neither agree nor disagree, in the absence of sufficient data.

      [–]cfl1 -5ポイント-4ポイント  (5子コメント)

      Psychology isn't science.

      [–]Psychonian20k get! 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Are you serious? Psychology is science. It's unbelievable to me that there are still people in a country close enough to the first world to use Reddit and yet still not believing that psychology is science.

      [–]shitpostingscumbag 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      It's only unbelievable if you ignore the media's presentation of psychology and aren't aware of the general public's image of psychologists.

      Psychology is a young science and has a lot of teething problems, it's not commonly taught in schools, it hasn't achieved the same tangible results as, for example, physics, chemistry or medicine, and it's unfortunately portrayed in most mass media as not having moved on since the days of Freud.

      [–]Ed130_The_Vanguard 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Lingering remains of Scientology?

      Sure its about as floppy and soft you can get compared to the likes of physics but yes it is a science.

      [–]Konstrukt1 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      You're thinking of Psychoanalysis, which is, indeed, not a science.

      [–]Meowsticgoesnya0018-1877-0794 3DS Friend code, remember to give me yours -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Yeah it is, psychology is most definitely a form of science.

      [–]VerGreeneyes 2ポイント3ポイント  (16子コメント)

      If you come from a scientific background, you should know that in science, things are rarely so simple. Genetically speaking, there are other possible combinations than just XX and XY. X and XXY also rarely occur, for instance. In addition, many people are chimeras, with their cells made up of a mix of two fertilized ova, or the same split ovum fertilized by two different sperm.

      Finally, it is thought that gender identification is established under the influence of hormones present during pregnancy. While there are probably people with genuine mental issues who think everything will be better for them if they have a sex change, there are also people for whom a sex change brings their bodies more in line with what their brains are telling them.

      [–]BlockPuppetCuck of /r/Polygon 12ポイント13ポイント  (15子コメント)

      Those chromosomal combinations are faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from normal, and are overwhelmingly fatal/non-viable.

      "it's hormones, so it's natural"

      So I guess diabetes is something we should all embrace? How about hypogonadism? Hypothyroidism? All of these diseases we should just "accept people for their hormonal quirks" right?

      [–]Meowsticgoesnya0018-1877-0794 3DS Friend code, remember to give me yours 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

      So I guess diabetes is something we should all embrace? How about hypogonadism? Hypothyroidism? All of these diseases we should just "accept people for their hormonal quirks" right?

      No, in fact we try to fix their bodies that developed wrongly than their brains to better fit them.

      [–]Involution88 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Where do you get that their bodies develop wrongly?

      Sexually differentiated Nudie bits show up early. After a couple of weeks. Brains undergo sexual differentiation much later on. If anything, it's brains which develop wrongly.

      Temporal separation of differentiation events hints that it could be possible to identify trans individuals by measuring hormone levels in the womb at different stages of the pregnancy.

      Everything points towards the conclusion that brain bits which report gender to the organisms brain involved differ. There are few (but some, and from what is known consistent) differences between the brains of trans and cis individuals.

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/ Rofl! More neurons for females and mtf trannies in certain areas! Girl power or something...

      http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564 Rofl! More neurons for males and ftm trannies in certain areas! Men rock or something...

      [–]BlockPuppetCuck of /r/Polygon 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

      No, we correct the deficiency.

      For trans, that deficiency is mental.

      [–]Meowsticgoesnya0018-1877-0794 3DS Friend code, remember to give me yours 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

      There's nothing wrong with having a female/male brain, the brain is perfectly okay as it is. The issue is that the body doesn't match their mental identity.

      So either we can brainwash transgender folk, or we change their bodies to better suit their identity.

      [–]typhyr 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

      Do you actually think less of someone for being diabetic? That's literally the worst argument you could have come up with. We actively treat those with diabetes, depression, hypothyroidism, etc., and try to help them cope with it. Accepting one's gender identity is a great way to help trans people cope with gender dysphoria (and possibly other conditions).

      You've got to be a troll, there's no way someone would make that argument.

      [–]BlockPuppetCuck of /r/Polygon 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Never did I say I "thought less" of anyone. I am saying that you need to recognise the problem as a problem in order to treat it.

      [–]typhyr [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      It is a problem, and one way to treat it is by viewing them the way they view themselves.

      [–]RavenscroftRaven [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

      Do you actually think less of someone for being diabetic?

      I feel bad for them, for they have a bad illness not likely to get better, even with the best treatments we've got, let alone what they can afford.

      So yes, technically I do think less. of them, if I involuntarily pity them, and you view being pitiable as a negative trait.

      [–]Cyberguy64 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Hoo boy. So many of my problems come from my having a hard time accepting the help I know I need.

      [–]Vathoska -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Those chromosomal combinations are faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from normal

      So you say they don't count because they're rare? You realise they're more common than trans people, right? Why do they get a pass and not us?

      overwhelmingly fatal

      42 percent attempted suicide rate is not fatal to you, then?

      Also, when I say they're more common, I'm specifically talking about the non-fatal ones.

      [–]Konstrukt1 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

      Around these parts, we've settled for indulging certain forms of mental illness because not doing so would make us a bigger target. People are terrified, despite all, of appearing as anything other than good obedient progressives, in this case good obedient progressives who care about ethics in journalism.

      [–]Eastergecko -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

      Look, if calling someone who feels like a woman 'she/her' makes them a little more happy, it's a really simple thing for me to do that.

      No need to be a dick about it.

      [–]zaphas -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

      It might make someone with multiple personalities happy if you directly engaged with one of their other personalities, but we don't do that, because you're indulging their mental disability. We're supposed to fix those, not enable them.

      [–]Eastergecko [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

      Transgenderism is not the same thing as dissociative personality disorder. Equating them is intellectually dishonest at best. Addressing someone the way they would like to be addressed harms literally nobody. It is polite and might make them feel better. What's bad about that?

      [–]zaphas [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Explain why. In both cases the brain is believing that something is true when in reality it is false. So please, enlighten me, because I'm not getting it. Our brains can fuck up in many, many different ways, and I fail to see the difference beyond your brain screwing up and failing to recognize the truth of the situation.

      [–]RavenscroftRaven [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Strictly speaking, addressing a wolfkin as their woofself pronouns harms literally nobody, and is polite and might for sure make them feel better. Even addressing "headmates" is polite and doesn't harm anybody.

      I'm not saying your goal statement is right or wrong, but your justification might need some work, because I do not think going around indulging every Tumblrina with a Alt-mind is the right way to do things.

      [–]Versac -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Scientific background? Surely you're familiar with the contrary results of neuroimaging studies on this very matter then, but just in case that somehow slipped by you I'll just leave this here as an example.

      [–]BlockPuppetCuck of /r/Polygon 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Looks like schizophrenia to me.

      [–]Versac [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      That's an article discussing the neurological basis of gender identity dysfunctions. Where exactly did you get the notion that the author was arguing that gender identiy doesn't exist as a concept separate from biological sex? What's your logic, "we might know the underlying mechanism, therefore the disorder doesn't exist"?

      [–]Ireyon12 -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

      So do I, and I disagree. What now?

      [–]thelordofcheeseCalled out the heads of Wikimedia, like a BOSS 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      No, he isn't. Tell me when he invents a DNA changing raygun.

      [–]raffastafarian 5ポイント6ポイント  (27子コメント)

      She's still a girl

      Ahh yes.. dressing as, speaking like and claiming to be a girl makes you actually a girl. And if anyone disagrees, they are a bigot. Am I right?

      [–]PedroIsWatching 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Remember, you also have to find her just as attractive as you would a "heteronormative cisgendered womyn".

      It really hurt to type that out.

      [–]howieloader 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Well it hurt to read it too, sooo...

      [–]Meowsticgoesnya0018-1877-0794 3DS Friend code, remember to give me yours 1ポイント2ポイント  (14子コメント)

      According to the APA, John Hopkins university, World Health Organization, and top tier colleges like the UCLA and Harvard, the U.S's surgeon general, yes, trans people are who they identify as.

      [–]AguyinaRPG 5ポイント6ポイント  (13子コメント)

      Don't worry Meow. It's not that people are against the idea, they just have unmitigated hate against hacks. Ergo, they believe any perceived deception is deception.

      [–]raffastafarian 8ポイント9ポイント  (12子コメント)

      Nono, I'm against the idea.

      Is there anything else besides "the opposite sex" that you can fill in for "X" in that statement? Dressing, acting and claiming to be black didn't work out for that woman in Spokane. Dressing, acting and claiming to be Napoleon lands me in the looney bin.

      I'm anti-special pleading is all.

      [–]BlockPuppetCuck of /r/Polygon 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

      This guy gets it.

      [–]AguyinaRPG -2ポイント-1ポイント  (10子コメント)

      You can't "feel" black. There's nothing outward which you biological state can express to being black. You can feel effeminate due to biological differences. That's not being a snowflake.

      [–]raffastafarian 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

      You can't "feel" black

      Sure ya can. Rachel Dolezal said she did. So unless you use special pleading, invalidating her experience as a black woman would be intellectually equivalent to invalidating Jenner's experience as a woman.

      [–]Cyberguy64 [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

      So... You're saying feels before reals? Last time I checked, I thought that was the SJW rallying cry.