全 85 件のコメント

[–]rezsahinایران 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

The plight of Baha'is is regrettable, but this article is calling for Obama to do something about it. Using the nuclear deal as leverage. I see this as opportunistic for a foreign cause, and if not the Baha'is, another issue would be brought under scrutiny.

Remember this old maxim: deal with domestic problems by domestic means.

[–]marmulak👑 تاجیکستان 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

In my opinion the Baha'i issue should not be used to further complicate nuclear negotiations. When US-Iranian relations thaw more and when (some day) all thesanctions get lifted, there will be a lot of positive outcomes for everyone. Iran will see a boost in economic development, which will give more opportunities for everyone, including Baha'is living in Iran. Conservative hardliners, who thrive on confrontation with the West, will lose much of their public appeal, causing a liberal shift in Iranian politics. This will open the door to more pliability on human-rights related issues, and when Iran's ties to the West get strengthened, it would then become more effective for Western countries to lobby in favor of human rights.

At this crucial moment, all it takes is for either party to push the wrong block to send the whole Jenga tower crashing down.

[–]bijan4187 7ポイント8ポイント  (24子コメント)

Why all the hate for bahais in here? Not being sarcastic, just curious?

[–]mrhuggables -2ポイント-1ポイント  (18子コメント)

Bahaism is a cult formed by a delusional hobo propped up by the British to further divide Iran during the European "Great Game". It's disliked because its a remnant of Imperialism and a reminder of one of the worst periods in Iran's history and has no religious depth.

[–]DisgruntledPersianEsteghlal, Azadi, Joumhuri- e Islami 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's basically Islamic Mormonism.

[–]pandorascube 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not sure why you're getting downvoted, this is true. I don't think they should be persecuted for it, but your answer is 100% correct.

[–]MardyBearAchaemenid Empire 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

propped up by the British

Yeah, gonna need a source on that.

Baha'is have been accused of being pretty much every under the sun - Zionist agents, British agents, Russian agents, SAVAK...

[–]mrhuggables 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

What are you talking about? SAVAK and zionists weren't around in the 1840s. If you really need a source to understand all the different petty "divide and conquer" imperialist games the British played during the colonial era (and still today) then I can't help you...

however:

http://bahai-library.com/warwick_queen_victoria

Bahá'u'lláh's goodness of character, however, brought Him friends even from amongst His gaolers, and those with open minds flocked to hear His teachings. The authorities of the time were not pleased with this. When Bahá'u'lláh was in exile in Baghdad, the representative of the British government, Colonel Sir Arnold Burrows Kemball, consul-general in Baghdad, entered into friendly correspondence with Him, offered Him the protection of British citizenship, called on Him in person, and undertook to transmit to Queen Victoria any communication He might wish to forward to her. He even expressed his readiness to arrange for the transfer of His residence to India, or to any place agreeable to Him within the British Empire. >Bahá'u'lláh's goodness of character, however, brought Him friends even from amongst His gaolers, and those with open minds flocked to hear His teachings. The authorities of the time were not pleased with this. When Bahá'u'lláh was in exile in Baghdad, the representative of the British government, Colonel Sir Arnold Burrows Kemball, consul-general in Baghdad, entered into friendly correspondence with Him, offered Him the protection of British citizenship, called on Him in person, and undertook to transmit to Queen Victoria any communication He might wish to forward to her. He even expressed his readiness to arrange for the transfer of His residence to India, or to any place agreeable to Him within the British Empire.

[–]MardyBearAchaemenid Empire 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

My point was that Baha'is have historically been scapegoated as being agents of various foreign enemies, such as the British, Russians, Zionists, etc. None of these accusations have any merit. Your source doesn't suggest any use of Baha'ullah by the British to undermine Iran.

[–]endorphinoid -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

Bahaullah was every bit a delusional hobo as Muhammad was a delusional caveman. At least, Bahaullah didn't spread his religion by conquest. Why do the mods permit one religion being disrespected but protect Islam at all cost?

[–]mrhuggables -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

Bahaullah was every bit a delusional hobo as Muhammad was a delusional caveman. At least, Bahaullah didn't spread his religion by conquest.

1) Islam has foundations in Zoroastrianism, Christianity, and Judaeism as well as centuries of texts and documentation to back up its legitimacy. Bahaisim is the cult of Bahaullah and Bab; Islam is not the cult of Mohammad. Islam has very little, almost nothing in the way of superstition whereas Bahaism is full of it.

2) Islam wasn't spread by conquest. I didn't think I would ever see such a silly post on /r/Iran. It took Iran nearly 600 years to become majority Muslim. Until the Abbasid Caliphate (largely brought into power by Iranians), very few non-Arabs were Muslim. Arabs had very little to do with spreading the religion outside of the Arabian peninsula; in fact this was mostly done by Iranians in the East and other Semitic peoples in North Africa.

[–]talltaletellerایرانشهر 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Islam wasn't spread by conquest. I didn't think I would ever see such a silly post on /r/Iran.

While you are correct in the fact that it took a long time for people in conquered regions to go through various levels of assimilation (first being acceptance of Islam, followed by adoption of Arabic as a language of government, followed by Arabic replacing the native language, etc) I think it quite obvious that you are being intellectually dishonest in your assertion that Islam was not spread by conquest. Simply because factually, it was, at least in the case of the Middle East.

A case where Islam was not spread (at least initially) by conquest would be Indonesia/Malaysia, or East Africa, West Africa (Mali Empire) etc. Nobody is trying to say that Islam is 100% spread by spilling the blood of the nonbeliever, so you don't need to be so defensive to massively exaggerate your point in order to seem legitimate.

[–]mrhuggables 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't think what I said constitutes "massively exaggerating" at all, nor was I being intellectually dishonest. Those are heavy accusations to throw at someone based on literally a single 5 word sentence. My basis for saying it wasn't spread by conquest was simply due to the fact that it took quite a long time after the initial Arab expansions to become the dominant religion in the areas. That's it. I can see what you're saying and I totally understand and accept your perspective, but saying I'm "massively exaggerating" and "intellectually dishonest" really is just stupid.

[–]talltaletellerایرانشهر -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well then given your response I'd like to ask you to consider what you're actually proposing; that Islam was not spread by conquest. By this statement, you claim that the spread of Islam due to military conquest = 0. Now, does that sound like the way empires work? Does that sound like how the Umayyad dynasty acquired all that territory? Frankly, I don't think that you think it does. And even if you claim that acquisition of territory via violent military conquest =/= spread of Islam, you'd be wrong, as the government in question is a Caliphate - a specifically religious government ruled by the successor to the Prophet Muhammad. And as you know, this government in both the cases of the Umayyads and the Abbasids (more so for the latter) encouraged/enforced mass conversion in many cases, a fact which directly contradicting your claim.

My basis for saying it wasn't spread by conquest was simply due to the fact that it took quite a long time after the initial Arab expansions to become the dominant religion in the areas. That's it

Well you're correct, and I can't dispute this historical fact; but quotation of this fact is an inadequate basis for the claim that you're making, which really runs counter to reality. I apologize if I've offended you by accusing you of intellectual dishonesty, but I don't see your claim as being anything else other than that.

[–]endorphinoid -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

1) Every idiot's go to response for de-legitimizing another religion is calling it a cult. You get 0 points for originality. Praying 5 times a day towards cube would seem pretty cult-ish behavior to rational observers.

2) Talk about being in denial. Islam was spread by conquest during Mohammad's own lifetime. In fact, on the list Muhammad's greatest accomplishment, his military leadership would only rank 2nd to his marrying up and using Khadijeh's assets. His successors merely copied his strategy and took it to the next level.

[–]setareh09 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

And that's a great reason to put people in jail. (I'm not saying YOU are saying that btw)

I'm sure being a remnant if imperialism is true, but that's not the main reason the Islamic regime has a problem with it.

[–]pandorascube 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

It's not a reason to persecute anyone, but he's absolutely right.

[–]setareh09 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

So there aren't any other dominant reasons why the Islamic regime is against them?

[–]rezsahinایران 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

Baha'is have been routinely persecuted since the Qajar era, nothing new to the IRI. They've had it harder than other minority religions because not only do they actively proselytize, but their views counter the state religion and they were/are the beneficiaries of multiple foreign networks.

Most Muslims, since the Qajar era, found their claim of Muhammad not being the last prophet offensive and supported the uprooting of the Baha'is. The state very well obliged, as not only did it have public support, but it was more than happy to remove an element that had the potential to be a fifth column.

I personally don't think Baha'is should get any different a treatment from the state than other Iranians do, provided they are loyal to the country.

[–]setareh09 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, that's why I felt it was more so about Muslims feeling threatened. MY OPINION.

Their treatment just really saddens me.

Thanks for the input. I learned something new.

[–]democracy4saleNeutral 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Provided they are loyal to the country.

100% agree. And as far as cults go, atleast they are not comparable to the MEK. Though I'm sure many intelligence agencies try to recruit Baha'is in a similar fashion.

[–]DoroodDoostam 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Baha'is have been routinely persecuted since the Qajar era, nothing new to the IRI.

How about during the Pahlavi dynasty era?

[–]Sepahani 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would rather have no Mullahs in Iran than no Bahais. There are quite a few IR apologists on this site.

[–]shah256 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

1.How new members are found

Dangerous Cults: With many cults, you don't get to know what you are getting into until after you have made a commitment

Baha'i Faith: There are secrets but these secrets are not known to the poor, innocent, newly converted Baha'is. Does the common baha'i know that the Baha'i Elections are fully controlled by the "All Male, Supreme, All Infallibale, Haifan Organization"? Do they know that these are not spiritual but highly fraud and controlled? there are many secrets and are available on the internet. Search on google for "Pakistan Baha'i Election Fraud", "Baha'i Control on their Electoral System", "Baha'i Election fraud in India".

2.How funding is obtained.

Dangerous Cults: Commercial operations and/or mandatory donations (often large percentages) by members.

Baha'i Faith: Has commercial businesses, businesses associations, huge property investments, heavy bank deposits. They collect money from poor Africans, Indians, Burmese, Nepalis, Pakistanis in the name of Community Banking and then use these funds for proselytizing. Also auctions are held of different used Clothings of Baha'i Leaders for fund raising. If they know about you have money, they (Especially Iranian Baha'is) will start motivating you to give the HUQUQULLAH, which is then transferred to UHJ in Haifa and it is then used to maintain Huge Gardens on Mount Carmel. Ask the Baha'is what they have done for the destitute of Congo and Sudan? Some of the fund is used for Pioneering purpose and it is allocated by the Counselors to its own people, sometimes exceeding 15000 US$ a year. There are huge financial scams in the Baha'i community. Just google to learn more, Search for Baha'i financial scams in Dubai, India, Italy, Pakistan, Africa, Iran etc.

Recently a Saree (cultural dress worn by women in India) of Ruhiyyih Maxwell was auctioned to raise funds for Baha'i activities.

3.Charismatic central figure.

Dangerous Cults: Cults usually have a central living figure who often lives on income from adherents.

Baha'i Faith : "Baha'i Say: There is no clergy, paid or unpaid" Totally false!

There are no clergies but there are Counselors and ABMs. The ABMs are religious Police just like the one in IRAN and the Counselors are purely MULLAHs. They are those conducting difficult and important lectures on the subjects such as Covenant, Huququllah, Covenant Breaking, Baha'i Elections, Ruhi 8 etc. These are Baha'i MULLAHs and everybody is supposed to OBEY them without any questioning. You cannot be critical of them. Otherwise you are considered Critical of UHJ, the Supreme Baha'i Body. These Counselors and ABMs are mostly paid huge amounts for their services. These amounts are called as "Living Assistance". Even the International Counselors are House of Justice members are paid huge amounts collected from the poors in the name of Huququllah.

4.Investigation of truth

Dangerous Cults: Members are often told that it is dangerous to investigate other religions.

Baha'i Say: Baha'is are encouraged to investigate all religions, and to appreciate truth no matter where it is found. Totally Wrong.

Baha'is are strictly not allowed to read the material of other Baha'i Sects. They are told to immediately delete all the emails received by the "Critics" or Baha'is of other denominations. Immediately handover the 'UNREAD' material received by other sects to the Baha'i Mullas (Counselors). As this can damage their so called weak 'covenant'.

5.Behavior control, as defined by Hassan. *

Dangerous Cults: Persons may be told where to live, what to wear, or what (and how much) to eat. Sleep and freedom to travel or move about may be limited

Baha'i Faith: Many Baha'is are Alcoholic (although officially it is prohibited). Shoghi Effendi prohibited the Baha'is from keeping long hairs. There is no freedom of travel. Every now and then guidelines (or Orders?) are issued to the Baha'i from their infallible supreme body. Behavior is fully controlled by the Supreme Baha'i Administrative Bodies. Once Baha'i Administration declares any fellow as a "Covenant Breaker" then other Baha'is are supposed to totally boycott / shun him even if he be your brother.

The advice of UHJ to Baha'is "There is no excuse for believers continuing to associate with ... and those who, knowing everything, still insist on doing so, should be shunned by their fellow-Bahá'ís. The same applies to people who have left the Cause and associate with ..."

6.Thought control as defined by Hassan. *

Dangerous Cults: There is often use of "thought-stopping" techniques such as chanting or speaking in tongues for long periods of time, setting up a type of hypnotic atmosphere

Baha'i Faith: The "Ruhi Institute" is specially meant to brainwash the newly converted. Read Ruhi Book 6 and 7 and learn yourself. And hypocrisy is the second name of Baha'i faith. See this

7.Emotional control, as defined by Hassan. *

Dangerous Cults: Guilt and fear are often used to control members, including alternating praise and public humiliation or forced confession, and indoctrination against leaving the group. *

Baha'i Faith: Exactly same here, Guilt and fear are often used to control members, including alternating praise and public humiliation (if you are critical of this cult) or forced confession, and indoctrination (Shunning) against leaving the group. Small mistakes are fined with the taking of "Voting / Administrative Rights"

8.What happens when people leave the religion

Dangerous Cults: People who leave cults are often considered to be dangerous and are usually shunned

Baha'i Faith: Exactly Same with the Baha'i Cult. Search the Phrase "Non-association with Covenant-breakers" and read the teachings of Baha'u'llah, Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

"SO BAHA'I FAITH IS ACTUALLY A CULT" "THE MOST HYPOCRITICAL CULT THAT WANTS TO ESTABLISH A NEW WORLD ORDER." NOW WILL YOU SUPPORT IT OR OPPOSE IT?

[–]Misterman1996USA 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you read closely and compare many of those points with any major religion, you will find that they have at least a few (if not many more) characteristics in common.

For example, I've been sent to a "Christian" camp before, where many of the same practices were used.

Oh, and I'm not really defending the Baha'i faith, I don't know much about it. It just seems unfair to make those comparisons like it absolute hell, when much of the world adheres to the same bullshit.

[–]shah256 1ポイント2ポイント  (25子コメント)

[–]koodakNeutral 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

and so is every sect within islamic, christian, jewish and basically any group of people that worships a devine being.

what is your point?

[–]Hull-tanker91-( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)╯╲___✡ ✡ ✡ ✡ Just taking my JIDF shills for a walk -2ポイント-1ポイント  (9子コメント)

so?

As long as it is voluntarily and you can quit when you grow up then who cares if it is a cult or not.

Take your sectarian bullshit to /r/Islam instead kessafat

[–]shah256 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (8子コメント)

You are an idiot. It's a cult and no, I'm not going to /Islam to deal with more idiots.

[–]Hull-tanker91-( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)╯╲___✡ ✡ ✡ ✡ Just taking my JIDF shills for a walk -4ポイント-3ポイント  (7子コメント)

Does it fucking matter that is a cult or not?

In what fucking way does that jusify opression you mouthbreathing dumbfuck?

[–]shah256 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

Just letting readers know i think it's a cult and to stay away from it. Just like how you should stay away from Islam, Scientology, etc. Your outburst shows that you are one of them and I'm sorry. But it's cool scro, calm your tits.

[–]ErsatzAcc 0ポイント1ポイント  (20子コメント)

My uncle is in prison for being Baha'i. The conditions in Iran for Baha'is are horrible. They are excluded from higher education, businesses are taken over by the state and always in danger for getting imprisoned. Not even the graveyards are safe.

Also let us not forget about all the other minorities living in Iran. Mostly I feel with the Sufis who have to deal thugs beating them up and destroying their temples on a regular basis.

But this is what Muslims always do when they are in power. They go after everyone else like the wolfs they are.

[–]PersianClayWe need a Zoroastrian Flair 14ポイント15ポイント  (11子コメント)

While i agree that Baha'is for sure have terrible conditions in Iran, and that this must be fixed, i would not say exactly that other minorities have it that terrible. unlike Baha'is, Christians and Zoroastrians do have some representation in politics. even if it could be better.

I would not exactly blame everything entirely on muslims. There are many other reasons of how it has become the way it is.

[–]ash00riNeutral 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah, the treatment of Baha'is is truly disappointing. They are really good people and do not deserve to be treated as second class citizens (I think they're treated even worse than that).

Unfortunately I do not understand why they are treated so poorly but I hope this is changed.

[–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Where do Baha'is live in Iran?

[–]ErsatzAcc 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

All over the place. About 10.000 in total.

[–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

There's no one region that's known for many Bahai's?

[–]ErsatzAcc 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not that I know of. Also not 10 000 but probably about a hundred thousand. It is hard to tell since the last time we got a number was in 1986, about 350 0000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Iran#Bah.C3.A1.27.C3.AD_Faith

[–]IR-TR -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

Baha'i can move to Saudi Arabia. See what happens to them. Sorry, but cults aren't allowed. Almost makes me feel like a Takfiri saying that, but there are limits you know.

[–]Hull-tanker91-( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)╯╲___✡ ✡ ✡ ✡ Just taking my JIDF shills for a walk 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fucking bs.

In an enlightened society people are allowed to believe in what they want. Your personal relation to the bahai faith isn't worth shit in this discussion.

Bahais are being discriminated for their beliefs, doesn't matter if you subjectively think their faith is a cult or not, it still shows that Iran like any autocratic state uses smaller sect/minorities as scapegoats for domestic problems

[–]boushvegIrānzamīn 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

What the fuck are you talking about? they have it worse in Iran. Baha'i's should be free living in Iran just like anyone else, i can't believe people here are hating their countrymen because they are Baha'i.

[–]marmulak👑 تاجیکستان -4ポイント-3ポイント  (4子コメント)

At the very least they can go to Israel. I'm sure that's an arrangement that will make everybody happy

[–]Hull-tanker91-( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)╯╲___✡ ✡ ✡ ✡ Just taking my JIDF shills for a walk 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

Why, they are children of Iran as much as any other Iranian.

They are more Iranian than you

[–]marmulak👑 تاجیکستان 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

They'd still be happier living in Israel

[–]Hull-tanker91-( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)╯╲___✡ ✡ ✡ ✡ Just taking my JIDF shills for a walk 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

So?

Iran is as much their homeland as it is any other Iranians.

Happier or not, Iran is their home and they should be ble to live in Iran without feeling any need to move to Israel because of religious persecution.

Why is this hard to comprehend?

[–]derintellectual 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Tell this to all those overseas Iranians.