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a3ArmA 3 AI cannot see through trees and bushes. Stop complaining. (youtu.be)

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[–]geoscion 28ポイント29ポイント  (4子コメント)

The main problem I have with the AI is their reaction times and how they know where they are being shot from. They almost instantly return fire and at roughly your location.

[–]CyruzUK 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

This depends on the AI skill settings by a large amount. If you want to you can turn them in to aimbot killing machines or pretty much lifeless brain dead moving targets, the scope is there.

I think some of the default values probably need adjusting based on the general feedback from most people but that's really more down to the mission design.

There was some nice data on this here if you want to look further at AI detecting position based on various situations: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?159710-AI-Discussion-%28dev-branch%29&p=2965989&viewfull=1#post2965989

Also nice video Simon :)

[–]twaxana 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can change that.

[–]dan1101 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah that seems really quick to identify and fire on an enemy, like a second or less.

[–]fuzzydice_82 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Its easy to program an AI that hits it's target, it's much harder to program something that "tries" to hit a target.

[–]finesseseth 32ポイント33ポイント  (4子コメント)

Nice video, but I think you missed the point, the tree's and bushes from Arma 3 official maps are fine as you demonstrated, the previous arma map imports have the broken foliage. I believe there's a patch fix for AiA Terrain Pack, and the fix is also included in the up and coming CUP Terrain Pack.

The confusion people have with Arma 3 foliage is actually demonstrated in your video but you didn't point it out. At the 3:20 mark when you pan your view you can see the OPFOR gunner is shooting the bushes to the right of the BLUFOR soldier. The AI considers your direction and speed as you enter cover and shoots where it thinks you would be had you continued on when it lost sight of you.

People must assume this means they can see you.

[–]doveenigma13 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

The AI in this game is a lot better than other shooter games. They shoot where they think you are, and use suppressive fire. They also zero in on you when behind concealment based on muzzle flashes and sound, usually better than a player can.

[–]Simon-ARK[S] 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm aware of older terrains not being supported by ArmA3 - but there's still a fair few amount of people who believe that the AI see through trees in Altis and Stratis - the reason why I made this video in the first place.

The main reason people have the wrong impression is due to videos such as this one which state blatant falsehoods.

I briefly touched on AI predicting where you are at ~1:20 but I missed the shot at 3:20! Thanks for point that out!

[–]MasterDefibrillator 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

In that video you linked "this one". The first test is rubbish, but the second test shows the same thing that your video showed. That the ai can track through stuff that should block line of sight. So that when they can "see" you, they are already aiming exactly at you, and firing instantly.

[–]Taizan 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Arma 3 AI works with Arma 3 terrains. All is well.

[–]Simon-ARK[S] 23ポイント24ポイント  (22子コメント)

So I'm not normally good at making videos (as you can tell by the quality) nor am I particularly eloquent, but hopefully this videos puts an end to everyone claiming that AI sees through trees and bushes.

edit: the video I refer to in my video is this one

[–]jihad_dildo 25ポイント26ポイント  (16子コメント)

Your tree experiment is still flawed. You can see that the moment you place down the BLUFOR unit, the CSAT unit goes prone and is aware of the presence of the enemy through the trunk of the tree. Even the BLUFOR unit becomes aware of the position of the CSAT unit and goes prone facing the CSAT soldier. When you give the order to move pass the tree you can see for a fraction of a second that the CSAT soldier is tracking his movement through the tree. His lower back slightly moves but his head and weapon are obscured by the tree.

I suggest you re-do that part of the experiment with the camera angle that shows both the soldiers. I am assuming that the CSAT soldier is able to hear the footsteps of the BLUFOR unit.

[–]Simon-ARK[S] 23ポイント24ポイント  (15子コメント)

Part of this (at least from the perspective of the CSAT soldier) can be explained by the fact that AI can hear. They are aware of footsteps in the nearby area.

I have a theory which explains the behaviour of the BLUEFOR unit but we'll need a dev to either disprove or support me.

Part of A2's issue with AI was that they were so slow to respond to anything. If they weren't already facing you, it could take them a good 30 seconds to turn and face you before they started shooting. I suspect that the AI default behaviour in A3 is to face nearby units even if they aren't "aware" of them so that they are ready to shoot when they are seen.

You'll notice that even though the BLUEFOR was watching the CSAT soldier throught the tree, he wasn't aware of his presence and was happy to run to his death.

[–]jihad_dildo 12ポイント13ポイント  (13子コメント)

I just repeated the experiment. The AI is indeed tracking the unit through the tree trunk. I changed perspective to the CSAT and his upper body does indeed move with respective to the soldier running. Now like you I assumed, yes he must be hearing the footsteps. So I move him far away out of hearing and repeated the experiment. The CSAT guy still tracked him through the tree, even going far as to scan the views on the side of the trunk anticipating the BLUFOR unit to appear, then resetting his view back on the enemy when he didnt appear.

Something is indeed flawed for the trees.

[–]ppitm 15ポイント16ポイント  (11子コメント)

He's NOT tracking the unit. He is making simply using intertial logic to guess where the unit will be. When the predictions do not square with observed reality, the AI goes back to looking at the last observed position.

[–]codeocho 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

The AI shouldn't be making 'intertial logic' assumptions if the other AI is further away and can't be heard.

[–]SoloWingPixy1 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think this is a tough call to make as the ability to hear things can greatly vary. At times we can hear small noises from large distances and others not so well. In reality I believe these are affected by lots of factors like surface densities, terrain, properties of certain materials in relation to sound reflection, etc. . I imagine trying to model all of this in ArmA would take a big chunk of the processing power budget.

[–]KennethR8 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

But that was the point of /u/jihad_dildo's (Seriously?) experiment, he moved the AI to a point where neither should be able to hear the other. Furthermore, in the video from /u/Simon-ARK did you notice that not only did the OPFOR unit become aware of the movements of the BLUFOR unit (which could be attributed to footsteps) but the BLUFOR unit also became aware of the OPFOR unit and went prone.

[–]jihad_dildo 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Here's something you can try to confirm it. Just silently delete the BLUFOR unit while still being obscured and out of hearing. After a few seconds, the CSAT will stand up and become relaxed. This is the most ridiculous part I've discovered so far.

[–]KennethR8 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

As far as I know (untestet, currently) the AI does that regardless of the amount of cover the other unit is in.

[–]KennethR8 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The point is the AI should have a "last observed position" since he's been out of his sight and earshot the entire time.

[–]Throwaway5284957248 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Speaking of squares and movement predictions:

You know about the red square marking the unit you're supposed to shoot at once you're assigned a target by your group leader? Did you ever notice how you can go behind a bush while the enemy is still moving and the square will continue moving, but once you get of concealment and you see the enemy he's in a different place?

The AI uses the exact same logic to predict movement. I'm sure that if you repeated it a large distance (over 200 meters) you'd notice the AI will still keep moving once the other unit has stopped.

[–]ppitm 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure everyone notices that red targeting square moving through buildings and hills within their first 5 hours of gameplay. Not to mention phantom contacts on the map.

It doesn't take more than a modicum of intellectual curiosity and honest observation to see how the spotting system works. Of course, most player are too butthurt about being shot all the time to bother, and whine about the cheating AI.

[–]jihad_dildo 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

That would be understandable if the AI cannot accurately pinpoint an enemy's location. But in repeated experiments, the AI continues to 'see' the enemy through the tree which shouldn't happen. Even the BLUFOR unit repeatedly goes to prone after moving to another spot.

If that still didn't convince you, silently delete either one of the units without moving them for a while. The other unit will go to a relaxed stance after a few seconds. This should not happen. It proves that AI can indeed see through trees. But their programmed logic system clashes with it giving you the impression that they are merely predicting movements.

[–]ppitm 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's entirely possible that this specific tree trunk is glitched (as Chernarus tree trunks were). But the AI works just fine with bushes and solid objects.

Upload the mission or at least a location reference to the tree and it will be easier to test. After all, the place to write about this is the bugtracker, not Reddit.

[–]KennethR8 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

This phenomenon has already been tested and observed with various trees however I do believe that more testing should be done with other forms of cover/concealment.

On a separate note is there already a relevant bug tracker report for this specific issue, all I could fine were non-specific ones on getting shot through vegetation which were generally able to be attributed to movement predictions.

[–]unkillable94 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Objects in general can be seen through by AI. I played the adapt campaign recently and it was much more difficult than when I first played it when it came out. In the convoy ambush the MG engaged me from 200 meters while I was in a building 100 meters back from the road in the center of the room prone.

[–]Captblaffer 11ポイント12ポイント  (4子コメント)

One of the issues described in that video can also be seen in your own video.

Notice in the tree experiment once you turn the BLUFOR dude to face the tree he goes prone. He has become 'aware' of the OPFOR behind the tree, which will make him instantly shoot the OPFOR when he leaves the tree cover.

[–]Strangere 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

He didn't. Listen to the soldier dialog, he didn't call contact...

Edit. Actually the opfor unit became aware of the blufor unit after blufor started talking to radio. So he probably heard that.

[–]Captblaffer 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Repeat the test without the OPFOR behind the tree. See if the BLUFOR guy will go prone when ordered to turn around. You will see Luetin was right in his video.

You can also repeat the test with a wall instead of a tree. Then walking the OPFOR in the sight of the BLUFOR (Luetin did this test too). You will see the BLUFOR has a longer delay before he starts firing on the OPFOR, compared to the tree test

[–]jihad_dildo 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nope, I re did this experiment even out of the hearing range of the enemy and the CSAT guy still tracked the BLUFOR moving his body through the tree. Pop in some units in zeus and try it yourself, you can see that AI units do indeed track through tree trunks.

[–]slappymcnutface 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

The AI didn't call out contact because he wasn't grouped with the other one.

[–]DwardenTech Community Manager 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

AI development changelog:
http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?159711-Development-Branch-Captain-s-AI-Log
AI feedback discussion (with active developers):
http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?159710-AI-Discussion-(dev-branch)
feel free to take part in improving AI, constructive feedback, repro missions, etc.

[–]2015login 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you are missing the issue that even you have demonstrated in your own video.

First observe the AI's reactions in the first 20s of your own video. No matter how much the opfor unit moves around the reeds, the blufor unit who is facing the opfor unit through the reeds has no reaction what so ever. He stands completely still in a relaxed state.

Now skip ahead in your own video to 1:42 marker. In this situation, the opfor unit is facing the direction where the blufor unit will be placed through the tree. It may be a little hard to see since you did not quite position the camera right, but at 1:46 you can see the opfor unit go into an alerted state despite not having direct line of sight of the blufor unit and this is before the blufor unit has started to move. Now notice how at 1:48 the blufor unit, despite also not having vision on the opfor unit and no way of hearing a prone opfor unit goes into an alerted state and prones as well. This is not typical AI behavior. In normal AI behavior they would walk/run around without going prone or into an alerted state because they do not know of the existence of the enemy units.

[–]Strangere 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

finally video that shows how AI actually works...

[–]Tacotuesdayftw 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is there a way you can test this by placing trees side by side making a sort of wall so there is no confusion of concealment and make the distance enough so the footsteps are not heard?

[–]KennethR8 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the easier approach would be getting a dev on here to comment on how the Ai was coded.

[–]ficiek 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is a very nice video, I thought that bushes do not help, it is great to know that it is actually useful to hide behind them. Thanks a lot!

[–]Gadsden 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Maybe someone can tell me why, on numerous occasions, my heli gunner in the blackfoot will fire on enemies it "sees" through hills, with the cannon?

[–]ingo2020 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thermals?

[–]KennethR8 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You realise thermal sights are also obstructed by hills right?

[–]anonymousxx007 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

What is this editor thing you're using to place and move units??

[–]KennethR8 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Zeus. Open the editor go to modules - Zues - Game Master and under owner type in #AdminLogged preview the mission and press Y to open the Zues interface.

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]User_Simulator 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Just because there is none. Some guy trying to promote a lane where there is a fucking insult to the booth and get your stuff ready a few times, but i do wonder why my swim teacher called me Piranha. If I take your point of concealed carry that others can't see the weapon? Then the little left over space on the N64 was exactly the same.

    ~ NyteMyre

    Info | Subreddit | Source code

    [–]TDO1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Very nice video, pitty there is a lot of fanboy rage in this thread. Most of the criticisms here are invalid.

    [–]DrasLeona -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    someone who actually understands that carefull play and use of concealment and cover wins the fight and not running like a chicken.

    +1 simon.

    [–]KennethR8 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    except this video actually showed that concealment is not working as intended and in it's current state actually hinders the effectiveness of "carefull play and use of concealment and cover."

    https://www.reddit.com/r/arma/comments/3e3jwm/arma_3_ai_cannot_see_through_trees_and_bushes/ctbnoaq

    [–]Ace0fspad3s 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Very good and quick demonstration, Simon!
    You should do more videos/experiments like this that shows ai behavior.

    [–]MasterDefibrillator 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    you proved yourself wrong in your own video: you can see at about 1:14 as you start to move the bluefore guy out of cover, that the opfor guy starts aiming and following his movement before he should be able to "see" him. So when he is allowed to see him, he is already aiming exactly where he is when he pops out. It's not that they can't see through bushes, it's that they pretend not to.

    [–]ASovietOnion -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

    You can see the OPFOR rifleman at 1:13 tracking the BLUFOR AI through the bushes. It just knows the bush is impervious to damage so doesn't shoot.

    This video also only covers A3 vegetation. A lot of my complaints about trees come from older maps like Celle2.

    [–]Simon-ARK[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Again, footsteps can be heard and it's pretty easy to pinpoint a rough location with them.

    The bush is far from impervious to damage, anyone who's been near those reeds can tell you it's very easy to be shot in and through them.

    Your tree complaints regarding older maps "like Celle2" are a little silly. First, Celle2 isn't even an official BI map, and secondly, you can hardly expect a map ported to a newer engine to work brilliantly. CUP maps had issues with windows being impenetrable until recently - that's no fault of BI's.

    [–]cynicalprick01 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

    people have long since repeated ur experiment out of hearing range to find the same problem.

    They responded to you with this info before you posted this post.

    so please stop being willfully ignorant of the problem.

    and also, you cannot use the universal claim that they cannot see through trees and bushes if the only thing you have proven is that they cannot see through CERTAIN TYPES OF BUSHES AND TREES.

    in short, using such a flawed experiment to make such a claim and then to tell people to just stop complaining is pretty ridiculous.

    [–]Simon-ARK[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I've seen the replies and have addressed their comments, but I don't have authority to speak on the matter. What it seems to me is happening is that the AI is facing the enemy even though they aren't technically "Aware" of them - something I suspect occurs to reduce the reaction time of the AI. I'll see if I can get a script with the knowsAbout parameter so that there's better information on what each unit knows of the other, until then I can only speculate.

    I tested it with almost all trees and bushes I could see. The problem is rarely about the trees themselves being see-through and more that the actual tree isn't wide enough to provide adequate cover.

    [–]ASovietOnion 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I've played TvTs in those reeds. Maybe they don't anymore, but they used to stop bullets without issue. The same complaints, tree wise, could be made for Bystrica, Bukovina, Chernarus.

    [–]Simon-ARK[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I've also played TVTs in those reeds. Can confirm that they don't stop bullets.

    [–]NinjaFox13 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    you sir, have no idea how arma works