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Tension builds between Canada, U.S. over TPP deal (theglobeandmail.com)

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[–]tripwire7 233ポイント234ポイント  (18子コメント)

Trust me, Canada, if you get out of this trade deal somehow, you are the real winners.

[–]banfromallsubreddits 124ポイント125ポイント  (12子コメント)

American here, most of us want out of this trade deal just as much as you guys, but sadly we're being forced into it by a bunch of fucked-up bureaucrats and corporate interests disguised as politicians.

[–]bobaimee 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

There's no way our government isn't going to get on board with this. I refuse to get my hopes up because my government consistently disappoints me, so why would this be any different?

[–]meowman9000 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

Alberta at least recently voted NDP when PC screwed them. So I have higher hopes for Canada than I do the states.

[–]bobaimee 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Nope, still not getting my hopes up. And I'm from the NWT where it's been NDP for as long as I can remember.

[–]loyalone 554ポイント555ポイント  (164子コメント)

I hope we have and take the option of not being part of this travesty. I can only imagine our courts being flooded with corporate lawsuits filed because they didn't agree with laws enacted by our duly-elected government, simply due to their perceived loss of potential profits.

[–]VROF 212ポイント213ポイント  (117子コメント)

The Republicans are fighting hard for this but I read where one representative said the calls to his office were 100-1 against. He voted for it.

My representative is from a very conservative district. The people here are very much against it. He will vote for it and still get re-elected

[–]Five_inches_of_taint 241ポイント242ポイント  (69子コメント)

Isn't Obama also pushing hard for this? I know Reddit likes to hate Republicans, but can't we at least pretend to be objective?

[–]theillien 266ポイント267ポイント  (16子コメント)

I told Obama, on Twitter, that he is failing us in this topic. I'm pretty sure we're safe now.

[–]VROF 105ポイント106ポイント  (39子コメント)

He is. It appears to be the only thing Republicans agree with. I cannot comprehend why Obama wants this so desperately. The people don't want it. Neither side supports it. At least the Democrats in Congress pretend to be against it but a few crossed the aisle to fast track it. Notice the media silence.

[–]yakatuus 48ポイント49ポイント  (15子コメント)

I think it's because a lot of US industry is intellectual design. Aerospace, pharma, medical tech and other 21st century industry that needs intellectual property right are theoretically protected by this. All the media companies would be benefitted.

[–]VROF 15ポイント16ポイント  (13子コメント)

We elect congress to work for what is best for the people. It seems like everyone has forgotten that.

[–]JamesColesPardon 77ポイント78ポイント  (6子コメント)

We elect Congress largeley on who spends the most money, like everything else.

Don't kid yourself.

[–]Rules_are_for_fools 15ポイント16ポイント  (3子コメント)

I can see how its possible that there would be some benefit to Americans if the rest of the world is forced to toe the line on intellectual property, most of which is produced in the US.

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      [–]redherring2 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Why? Because the big corporations want it, that's why.

      [–]Ob101010 7ポイント8ポイント  (14子コメント)

      Its because they literally think the masses are literally retarded.

      [–]Nyefan 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

      Are they not? It's been over a decade since citizens united, and most people still couldn't tell you what the ruling was or how it's affected our economic and political climate.

      [–]misyo 21ポイント22ポイント  (4子コメント)

      Citizens United was decided in 2010

      [–]ShadowBannned 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Oh, that sweet, sweet irony.

      [–]misyo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Right? I even smiled to myself while I typed that out

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              [–]Ketelbinkie 18ポイント19ポイント  (38子コメント)

              Typical well informed voters who have not the slightest inkling what and who they are voting for.

              [–]manachar 37ポイント38ポイント  (30子コメント)

              Eh.

              A lot of people thought Obama was a liberal messiah, when he's been fairly consistent about being a moderate conservative with a desire to build on commonalities.

              Upshot: most people vote on if they "like" their rep or not. And that "like" factor is influenced more by identity politics than anything else.

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                  [–]Galeharry_ 34ポイント35ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  As i understood it, it wont even be your courts. They will have their own courts where they probably have some say over the outcome. Which is more shady than the blackest black.
                  Source

                  [–]neotropic9 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Well, it would be great if Canada didn't get on board with what promises to be a great travesty of a trade deal. But what I've learned form politics is that hope leads almost inexorably to disappointment. Hope is redundant to the political process, and may be a liability. Progress doesn't come from hope. It comes from steadfastly defending your principles because it's the right thing to do, not because you think you will change the world for the better. Most people who are idealists and set out to change the world on their own will be beaten down by reality so hard that they might just become conservatives.

                  [–]girlygrill 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Fuck the NAFTA chapter 11. I don't want more of that shit.

                  [–]serael 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

                  A top comment in a thread that refers to harpers gov as legitimate, never thought I would see the day. Thank you for that

                  [–]InqGeist 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  The funny part is that this slow down is not over that of the tpp , its about poultry and dairy.

                  [–]WirelessZombie 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  Myth 4: ISDS allows companies to sue for lost profits

                  This is a very reductive description of what ISDS does, presumably done for simplicities sake to explain a complex mechanism that exists in more than 3400 agreements agreements across the globe, including some 50 that the US is already party to, and has been around since 1959. ISDS doesn't allow a company to sue for 'lost profits'. It only allows companies to sue and win for the violation of any of the four fundamental protections of the investment protection chapter. This will be a simplification, but if I called you a pervert and you lost your job as a result, you wouldn't sue me for 'lost profits'. You'd sue me for defamation/libel, and seek lost profits in damages. Similarly, companies can't sue in ISDS for 'lost profits', they can only sue for the violation of those protections, and can be awarded lost income as a result. I go into considerably more detail on the subject here.

                  This is from this post

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                    [–]lukeyflukey 953ポイント954ポイント  (333子コメント)

                    You know the sad thing about the TPP is? Legally, there isn't a thing you can do about it. Sure you can protest, you can lobby, you can write letters, you can spread the word but ultimately one company with a few million is worth a billion votes.

                    That's why I won't judge if I hear about a nailbomb being dropped in the lap of a TPP author.

                    Those who make peaceful change impossible make violent revolution inevitable.

                    [–][deleted] 366ポイント367ポイント  (176子コメント)

                    CEOs of worldfucking corps are sure going to be in for a shock when joe extremist realises they're as explodable as any other corrupt leader. Somehow they've gotten away with everything being "just business" all this time.

                    edit: commenting on the news; this user brought up something I'd been showerthinking about... nobody should want this to actually happen.

                    [–]99drumdude 179ポイント180ポイント  (149子コメント)

                    I dont understand how something like this hasnt happened yet. Every time something ass-backwards is approved like the TPP i think "damn, some loon is gonna do something horrible to whoevers idea that was"

                    [–]Manadox 27ポイント28ポイント  (2子コメント)

                    Because most people have something to lose.

                    [–]amnes1ac 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    Exactly. Eventually it will reach a tipping point where a large number of people are willing to risk it all because they have so little. And that's when it will happen.

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                      [–]gelinrefira 20ポイント21ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Because of the bootstrap propaganda. Convincing Americans that there is still such a thing social mobility and the American Dream for all is the greatest propaganda campaign ever waged.

                      [–]boredguy12 80ポイント81ポイント  (114子コメント)

                      Theyre not loons and neither are we. We're angry!

                      [–]cmonpplrly 78ポイント79ポイント  (103子コメント)

                      The amount of people here seemingly supporting terrorist acts is unsettling

                      [–]boredguy12 435ポイント436ポイント  (32子コメント)

                      the TPP is the terrorist act

                      [–]SlaminYou 119ポイント120ポイント  (5子コメント)

                      You have no clue how fucking right you are. Free trade deals always cost the highest wage earners jobs. Why overpay for a service in Canada/US when you can do it through cheaper alternative and ship the results. Mid class jobs are almost all wiped out and this will exponentiate the job loss. Competing with countries that don't have labour laws like our own; for a wage most can't live on is unacceptable. I can't upvote you twice so enjoy the gold.

                      [–]BirdSkull 29ポイント30ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      I'm sure he has SOME clue about how fucking right he is

                      [–]thriron 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      Isn't one goal of the TPP to enact and enforce labour laws in those countries?

                      [–]bluewolf37 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      They already started when the dimwits in office allowed H-1B visas to be used they way they are. Disney fired a entire division of white collar jobs and replaced them with cheap labor and they aren't the only one. If this passes every big business will get cheap labor and tank the economy.

                      [–]Bert-Goldberg 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      The discussion regarding the TPP has now reached moronic levels

                      [–]2rio2 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      What, a bunch of keyboard warriors threatening to murder the writers of a multinational trade agreement on reddit doesn't strike you as a savy plan?

                      [–]somethingsomethingBS 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      It oddly places corporations above the sovereignty of States (i.e., countries). Parties privy to TPP are beholden first to other TPP parties and must hold TPP's allegiance above those defined in any other document. Why such peculiar language...?

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                        [–]reallyGUYScomeON 75ポイント76ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        you wouldn't have liked 1776

                        [–]gemini86 22ポイント23ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        I've never actually thought about it that way.

                        [–]Gylth 24ポイント25ポイント  (5子コメント)

                        To be fair all violent revolutionaries could be considered terrorists. The rich have shit on us time and time again. They have started the class warfare using their weapons, money and power, so I wouldn't regret if someone used the only other weapons available that seem to make any impact. I don't condone any violent action, but at this point I wouldn't be surprised if some happened and I definitely wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

                        [–]CHAINMAILLEKID 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

                        I don't think that would necessarily be terrorism. I mean, a terrorists goal is to affect as many people as possible. Directly through violence, or rumors, through media, whatever. A terrorist attack is an attack for the sake of impact.

                        If somebody were to do something horrible in order to send the message that they disapprove of the TPP, that would be a terror act.

                        Thats why war and assassinations aren't always acts of terror.

                        [–]Rinpoche8 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        How many people do you think will get affected by this? I would say this is an excellent example of terrorism. Albeit the explosion is slow and not as fast with a bom

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                          [–]thr_sockpuppet_1 48ポイント49ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          TPP is also unsettling.

                          [–]Akesgeroth 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Democracy, rights, protesting, petitions, writing letters to your representatives and all these other methods you can think of exist for the sole purpose of allowing people to avoid violence. If they get ignored by the government, one has to be a fool not to expect violence sooner or later.

                          [–]UrethraX 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          "The amount of people in here willing to let an evil person die for the good of millions is disturbing"

                          [–]tablesix 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          More unsettling is the number of people who are readily promoting terrorism from an account which is most likely traceable to them quite easily. Welcome to the list.

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                            [–]99drumdude 4ポイント5ポイント  (8子コメント)

                            Go and shootem up or something. Take one for the team here, bud

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                              [–]Murgie 28ポイント29ポイント  (7子コメント)

                              I dont understand how something like this hasnt happened yet.

                              Ah, allow me to explain:

                              Taken as a whole, in the specific context of political involvement, the American populace is both comfortable and lazy as fuck.

                              They can't even bring themselves to see to it that the people in there own government responsible for the systematic abduction and torturing of people are held in any way accountable for it. If they can't get their collective act together over something as unquestionably black and white as that, what chance do you think they have of sitting down, examining the implications of a trade agreement they're not allowed to see, and taking action for or against it as a group?

                              [–]invitroveritas8 10ポイント11ポイント  (6子コメント)

                              You think Americans haven't (more often) resorted to violence and terrorism just because we are too "comfortable and lazy? Really?

                              [–]MrTurkle 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Welcome to reddit!

                              [–]MilkManEX 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              The "comfortable" part is the important bit. We're not so bad off yet that destabilizing ourselves seems worth it.

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                                [–]snackwater 11ポイント12ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                The potential loons are identified and isolated way before they can do anything. There are people that pay attention to this stuff.

                                [–]TripleSkeet 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                Um...have you seen the news lately?

                                [–]gatsby365 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                dude, this is america. they'll basically let you kill all the poor brown people you want; hell, wear a badge and you can actually make a shitload of money doing it.

                                but don't you think about touching a rich white person.

                                [–]dwarfHamPlanet 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                hell, wear a badge and you can actually make a shitload of money doing it.

                                Love 'em or hate 'em, fact is cops get paid shit.

                                [–]itsthematrixdood 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                It really varies. In NYC they start at like 35k-45k. In many NJ towns it's not uncommon for police to make 6 figures with OT. I don't know what the national median is though.

                                [–]jzuspiece 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                Depends on the location and the role. A tenured cop that got promoted can make more in 10 years than the average citizen in mid-level, non-executive management (80-120K).

                                [–]shillsgonnashill 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                But they still get paid, regardless of killing innocents, or killing a k9 partner.

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                                  [–]SHIT-NOBODY-SAYS 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                  For the same reason you don't do it

                                  [–]brakk53 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  "damn, some loon is gonna do something horrible to whoevers idea that was"

                                  Those that do shit like that are usually only interested in the crazy planet they live on

                                  [–]sickofallofyou 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses

                                  [–]sabbathrules 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  Which is why populists are the biggest demagogues of them all.

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                                    [–]SerCiddy 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                    YOU HAVE FAILED THIS CITY.

                                    [–]BigTimStrange 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    CEOs of worldfucking corps are sure going to be in for a shock when joe extremist realises they're as explodable as any other corrupt leader.

                                    They know. they've been planning their escape when shit hits the fan for years. Hidden airstrips in rural farmland, fortified private islands, the whole nine.

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                                      [–]Akesgeroth 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                      The fact that people are no longer shy about discussing it publicly and that this sort of discourse receives praise should be a wake-up call for people in positions of power to change their ways. They likely won't, and it's likely too late either way.

                                      [–]TeaDrinkingRedditor 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                      Same with TTIP in Europe. It's purely pro-corporations and anti-citizen. If it wasn't, we'd be able to read it and vote on it.

                                      [–]LurkerSurprise 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                      You're fucking delusional, I have actually done some work on the topic of TPP and talked with someone who is actually part of negotiations. Things are terrible and horrifying when you don't understand the complicated details or the interest of other countries involved.

                                      [–]UncleMeat 17ポイント18ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                      Legally, there isn't a thing you can do about it.

                                      That's true of literally all legislation. If its popular in the legislature then your only options are lobbying and voting. Nothing special about a trade deal.

                                      [–]Padatr 29ポイント30ポイント  (29子コメント)

                                      To play devil's advocate a bit, isn't that what everyone who loses a major political setback feels?

                                      People should be persuaded about the effects of any legislation/treaty, and if enough people are persuaded then either the politicians will change their stances or the politicians will change.

                                      And if enough people cannot be persuaded about a certain issue one feels strongly about, well sadly there's nothing about democracy that promises everything will be nice and lovely. Guess the work needs to continue to further spread the information to the people.

                                      The people as a whole get the government they deserve in a democracy.

                                      [–]Trollashnikov 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                      they just passed the opposed bill c 51, i know almost noone that agreed with it, yet all the liberal and conservative mps voted for it.

                                      [–]Akesgeroth 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                      Question is, do we still have a democracy?

                                      [–]lukeyflukey 29ポイント30ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                      Well torture is illegal, immoral and widely condemned by even the President yet it still goes on. As I say, it wasn't impossible to change I'd feel less inclined to hope for a nailbombing of those liars.

                                      [–][deleted] 20ポイント21ポイント  (20子コメント)

                                      The people as a whole get the government they deserve in a democracy.

                                      Since huge amounts of money and effort are spent on keeping people divided and their opinions controlled as both voters and consumers, this is pure bullshit.

                                      Even if voters managed to unite enough to repair the game, the parasites will merely change tactics... which they can do much faster than the system can react to (between bureaucracy and terms of office) even if people were allowed to be educated (constantly undermined) or have access to reliable information (shills and propaganda fuck SNR) or means of organisation (systematically infiltrated).

                                      [–]ImInterested 8ポイント9ポイント  (14子コメント)

                                      Even if voters managed to unite enough to repair the game

                                      The2014 Election had 36.3% of people vote. If people simply voted things would change.

                                      [–][deleted] 13ポイント14ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                      Australia has compulsory voting, yet the US, UK, Canada and Australia are all suffering from the same hypercapitalist authoritarian creep, which kinda proves it's an anglosphere thing and/or the same language-bound actors/influences behind it all.

                                      Ultimately the economy is an environment in which competitive economic entities are allowed to evolve, and one of the things an organism can do in order to improve its net fitness is to alter its environment. Lack of regulation and greed have allowed our culture and political systems to be thusly altered.

                                      If voting had the power it's supposed to then it'd be fucking illegal at this point.

                                      [–]entotheenth 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                      Gotta love how its all discussed behind closed doors to the extent that the shadow ministry is excluded from the details. Thats ridiculous, how can that be to anyones benefit bar the actual draftee's.

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                                          [–]Eyekonz 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                          So everyone else's fault, except the citizens, huh?

                                          [–][deleted] 19ポイント20ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                          Yes.

                                          Don't make the mistake of thinking the playing field is level. At this point we're a couple generations into a (poorly) engineered society created almost whole cloth by early industrialists.

                                          Controlling people is a science perfected by marketers, even if you discount the government's (matter of public record) long-term interest in literal mind control (note that only the failures have been declassified).

                                          How many more decades of corruption, poverty, dangerous contaminants/disruptive hormones in your air/furniture/clothing/food/water, environmental destruction, war crimes and incessant political scandals will it take to convince you that the system is stacked against the people? Hm? How is any of this your fault exactly and why can't you do anything to change it?

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                                              [–]GaiusSherlockCaesar 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                              Amen, the more I read and hear about TPP the more I'm convinced that in time, it can cause a very big, bloody revolution, which actually might be good for humanity in the long run

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                                                [–]fredmratz 117ポイント118ポイント  (33子コメント)

                                                If only the government officials actually knew what they were bargaining. US officials are only allowed to review it a secret room, making no notes. Clearly an industry written agreement designed to trick governments into signing away the power of citizens to corporations.

                                                [–]ManBMitt 59ポイント60ポイント  (30子コメント)

                                                Once it's finalized the deal will be able to be read by the public for two months before the final vote.

                                                [–]oboedude 9ポイント10ポイント  (27子コメント)

                                                Source?

                                                [–]ImInterested 33ポイント34ポイント  (22子コメント)

                                                A good post that clears up some myths about TPP

                                                The minimum 60 day period is for US, other countries have different time periods before their legislators vote up/down.

                                                [–]janethefish 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                I like how it completely neglects to cite anything against the myths.

                                                [–]kerosion 3ポイント4ポイント  (13子コメント)

                                                This one strikes me as an incomplete document. The actual details regarding the TPP being made available for 60 day review before an up or down vote is from a section of the 2015 fast-track agreement for the TPP. The particular section pertains to obligations the President has to Congress before the up or down vote. This section does not explicitly state that the public must be granted access to the document as well, nor details to the process under which the text must be made available. There is nothing stating that it wouldn't be made available under intense security, barring political staffers, electronic devices, or notes on the matter.

                                                The particular PoliticalDiscusion link is interesting in the questions it raises but it leaves a large amount of information to be desired on how they are reaching conclusions about these 'dispelled myths'. I was left unsatisfied after taking the time to work through the source material directly.

                                                It would be foolhearty to not remain active and wary given the lack of explicit language stating the full text to be made public.

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                                                  [–]kerosion 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                  This comes from the Fast Track agreement which was passed a month ago or so. I recommend taking 20 minutes and skimming through it. There are only a couple locations that explicitly discuss the text being made available 60 days before the final up or down vote.

                                                  The sections that do address this describe the obligations the President has to representatives making the final up or down vote. It does not explicitly state the public will be let anywhere near the text of the thing.

                                                  My understanding from those who are better versed than I is that historically fast-track agreements have been made available to the public to read as well, however I have not fact-checked this point. I believe this is where claims that it will be made available to read are coming from, however the lack of explicit language has me not so sure. This would be a good next step item to check on.

                                                  The 2015 fast-track agreement for the TPP may be read here. Interestingly, note the language that also grants fast-track for the TIP and TISA in it as well. This was a bit of a 'THE FUCK??' moment for me.

                                                  TPA-2015 (fast track) may be used to consider potential agreements resulting from several ongoing negotiations, including

                                                  • The Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), a regional FTA the United States is negotiating with 11 partner countries in the Asia-Pacific.

                                                  • The Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (T-TIP) being negotiated with the European Union (EU).

                                                  • A Trade in Services Agreement (TISA), a plurilateral trade negotiation to seek expanded commitments in services trade.

                                                  • An Environmental Goods Agreement (EGA), a plurilateral agreement being negotiated at the World Trade Organization (WTO) to reduce or eliminate tariff and nontariff barriers on goods to promote the environment.

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                                                        [–]herpberp 43ポイント44ポイント  (32子コメント)

                                                        there is just no way that Canada won't be included in the deal. What we're seeing is yet another Walkback by the Harper government. Mark my words.

                                                        [–]69Bandit 40ポイント41ポイント  (30子コメント)

                                                        there is just no way that Canada won't be included in the deal. What we're seeing is yet another Walkback by the Harper government. Mark my words.

                                                        Hes trying to stall till he can get voted in again, then he will sink canada into 3rd world status.

                                                        [–]harpyson11 18ポイント19ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                                        then he will sink canada into 3rd world status.

                                                        Can't we talk about this without hyperbolic language? These kinds of ridiculous statements do nothing to further the discussion.

                                                        [–]69Bandit 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                        discussion seems to be overwhelmingly in favor of canada getting the fuck out of the TPP.

                                                        [–]Mi11ionaireman 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                        From what i understand, it wouldn't benefit Canada all that much. We're really protective of our goods and to lower our standards would do more harm than good.

                                                        [–]iamlogris 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                        Plus the last time we signed on to a big trade deal with the USA, they stole a lot of money from us.

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                                                          [–]Smoovemammajamma 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                          lol if everything can be purchased elsewhere for cheaper, then it really will become a third-world economy (resource-extraction). don't you wonder where the manufacturing jobs went?

                                                          [–]iamthecaptaincrunch 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                          Our manufacturing jobs went to China and Mexico because the price of our unskilled labour is not competitive on the global market. This was exacerbated by the high dollar we had due to high oil prices. The same thing happened to American manufacturing. What is your point?

                                                          [–]NotObviousOblivious 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                          only partially correct. To cheap labour you can add: low environmental standards, low safety standards, no welfare or healthcare, no pensions, etc. There are many costs that must be internalized by companies who manufacture in Western countries to maintain our standard of living. Other countries forgoe these. It is a race to the bottom and Western countries are losing. we will continue to lose until we scarifice these things which underpin our societies, or until we refuse to trade with those who do not have similar standards as us. I prefer the latter but I feel we're heading towards the former.

                                                          [–]iamlogris 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                          That's not what a third-world economy is/means, and you should be ashamed for furthering that rhetoric.

                                                          [–]Konker101 15ポイント16ポイント  (15子コメント)

                                                          i just cant wait until the boomers are gone (sorry grandma).

                                                          [–]yaypal 6ポイント7ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                          I'll have you know my gran votes Green! ...which is just about as useless. At least her heart is in the right place.

                                                          [–]Gaulbat 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                          fuck grandma. i want all of these old xenophobic quacks to die so we can start fixing our idiotic world.

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                                                            [–]herpberp 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                            yeah, he's trying to make it seem like he's doing what's best for citizens, but it's just a show for election time.

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                                                              [–]PastaArt 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                              I wonder if there are other industries angles that can be attacked by saying "you're not going to get your fair share", or "if the deal goes through, your competition from the other country is going to put you out of business". Basically, if we can pit companies against each other or against the governments and the TPP, perhaps we can sink this thing. The old adage "divide and conquer" would become "divide and and stay free".

                                                              [–]Afa1234 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                              I still don't really even know what that is.

                                                              [–]ycnz 22ポイント23ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                              Uh, are the US dropping their subsidies of agriculture in exchange? Since it seems like that'd be a pretty big news item.

                                                              [–]BSEXSS 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                              My hypothesis is that it's in response to the new USDA guidelines revisions that are coming out later this year. The USDA will most likely be altering them to include less protein and dairy than we are accustomed to in our diet. Numerous studies support this claim for our health. Reduction in cardiovascular disease, etc. I would like to think a shift away from subsidies in meat and dairy could be in response to that...but in reality, it's probably just a money issue.

                                                              [–]ycnz 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                              Most of it seems to come down to the US farming populace being disproportionately represented in government, combined with some pretty epic lobbying by the big "farmers" (can't really call multi-billion dollar corporations farmers).

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                                                                [–]AnalISIS 83ポイント84ポイント  (32子コメント)

                                                                Canada is equally frustrated with Obama's foot dragging on Keystone.

                                                                [–]lasyke3 59ポイント60ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                Reddit hates keystone, so nobody cares here.

                                                                [–]CJKay93 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                Implying Reddit likes the TPP..?

                                                                [–]HugeRally 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                I think what he means is:

                                                                Reddit hates keystone but it's being delayed, therefore there's no cause for outrage.

                                                                Reddit hates TPP but it's being fast tracked, hence OUTRAGE.

                                                                [–]garlicroastedpotato 20ポイント21ポイント  (27子コメント)

                                                                And now it seems that opportunity is lost (for America). Canada's Premiers have met and have agreed to creating a pipeline from Alberta to Ontario/New Brunswick. The oil will now be refined in Canada instead of Texas and those refineries will no longer be purchasing crude.

                                                                It also means that we won't be needing the crude oil that was coming from North Dakota via rail. Obama's on his last term so he doesn't actually have to listen to voters. However whoever replaces with him will have to maintain better diplomatic relations with Canada

                                                                [–]VROF 38ポイント39ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                KXL is bad for America. We are allowing a private corporation to use eminent domain and steal private property from citizens. Who are advised to pay for their own insurance against spills.

                                                                [–]desertdungarees 17ポイント18ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                                The US, I believe, is okay with that. You can go and ravage your own environment with your own tar sands crude. I'm pretty sure we'll be alright.

                                                                [–]Facticity 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                Oil is oil. What makes ours so much dirtier? The mining? Yeah the strip mining at Fort Mac is destructive, but that doesnt exactly get exported on a pipeline.

                                                                I don't support KXL because I believe we should be refining our own oil, creating more jobs and keeping profits in Canada instead of exporting them to Texas for a quicker buck. But the environmental argument is pretty weak (and this is coming from a self-described environmentalist) because pipelines are by far the safest means of petroleum transport. Road and rail transport (how it gets to Texas now) has an appalling record and spills occur every day. Pipelines are intensely monitored and built to incredibly high standards. It's similar to public opinion on nuclear power being marred by a couple huge disasters when overall it's actually one of the safest and least polluting sources there is.

                                                                Domestically we're now having issues with Northern Gateway from Alberta to Kitimat BC on the west coast. The issue isn't the pipeline itself, its the tankers that carry the oil from Kitimat to the world and their terrible safety record combined with the fucking gnarly coastline in that area.

                                                                [–]malaysian-man 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                The issue with that argument is that the value added component of the oil industry is by far the largest in the extraction process, the value added in refining is minimal, and the amount of construction and infrastructure required to build the capacity is very costly. The result is that building upgraders in canada at the cost of tens of billions of dollars puts jobs at risk limiting the profitability of the oil sands. The oil sands are profitable in a very narrow range of oil prices. First of all they sell for 5-10$ less per barrel then the standard commonly quoted on media, and they cost in the range of 60-75$ to extract. I'm all for Canadian jobs, but forcing an industry to produce billion dollar upgraders, rather then utilize ones working undercapacity is foolhardy and illogical. With the latest downturn thousands in Fort McMurray have been laid off as a result of oil falling below its profit margin, it makes no sense to increase that margin to produce some sort term construction jobs and a few long term .

                                                                Sources available if this doesn't get buried

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                                                                  [–]Daldidek 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                  KXL was bad for both of us, I'm glad we get to keep it because the alternative industries are pretty much being shat upon.

                                                                  [–]aryst0krat 3ポイント4ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                                                  Seriously? That's actually hella awesome. I've always thought we should be refining our own product. Should help with gas prices, I'd imagine.

                                                                  Hopefully they can pull it off safely and respectfully, though.

                                                                  [–]malaysian-man 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                  Refining in the oil sector is not the same in other industries such as forestry. In forestry, the extraction of natural ressources is eAsy, and it is the artisan who turns the lumber into furniture that gets the value added bonus. This is a false comparison to oil. Oil it is the extraction of the resource that garners the greatest chuck of the value added profits, the amount for refining is substantially smaller. Therefore building Canadian refining capacity at the cost of extraction is a lost cause.

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                                                                      [–]amoderate 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                      Actually two months before debate and suggested changes and a few months for debate before a final vote, so the deal will likely be publicly available for more than 90 days before a vote is cast, but oh well this doesn't fit the narrative.

                                                                      [–]ChriskiV 62ポイント63ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                      God when did Twitch Plays Pokemon become so controversial....

                                                                      [–]mrt90 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                      Have you seen how worked up people get over Twitch Plays Pokemon? I'm pretty sure there are places where you'd get stabbed if you tried promoting the Dome Fossil.

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                                                                        [–]paulfromatlanta 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        have repeatedly publicly prodded Canada to produce a “meaningful offer” and disclose to the U.S. what kind of agriculture concessions it will make.

                                                                        One of the many reasons the process should be more open - so the public in each country can judge for themselves.

                                                                        [–]pixelrebel 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        “That was very clear; that was agreed upon,” a source familiar with the trade talks said.

                                                                        Unnamed sources? Not identifying which country the source is from? This agreement has red flags everywhere you look.

                                                                        [–]aram855 19ポイント20ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                        Every country that is planning to sign this piece of shit should side with Canada. NOBODY WANTS THIS. I'm not even from the States, but I will get affected by this anyway. And almost no one in my country even knows about this piece of crap, being bothered only by a lobby-scandal. This is much worse!

                                                                        EDIT: Reading a little bit more, my country was one of the founders of TPP. And almost no one inside knows.

                                                                        [–]farticustheelder 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                        May it grind to a halt until we know what it entails.

                                                                        [–]boredgenius 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        It's a bad deal, so my only hope is that Canada's holdout makes it harder to pass in the U.S.

                                                                        [–]MaxSwagger 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                        Well I am definitely surprised if Harper and his cronies are not asking how high to jump. All they seem to do is suck up to what ever the US tells them to. My only guess is they were paid enough to stall.

                                                                        [–]laxlife5 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        Election is coming and conservatives don't have the poll numbers, have to try to get votes somehow

                                                                        [–]parko4 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        I really hope Mulclair gets elected.

                                                                        [–]callipygian1 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        hooray for canada. you're a free country, you don't need to be our bitch. reject this bad deal!

                                                                        [–]Shorvok 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                        Is there some sort of organized movement to stop this? There has to be something we can do about it. There's not a single non-corporate US citizen that wants this crap.

                                                                        [–]arealbigboss 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        This is great news, maybe it will bring more media attention to this fucked up deal.

                                                                        [–]darkage_raven 12ポイント13ポイント  (16子コメント)

                                                                        Can we stop exporting unrefined oil, as well as close down those pipes if this stops. I would love for Canada to refine oil so our prices can drop.

                                                                        [–]kyleclements 40ポイント41ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        so our prices can drop

                                                                        HA! Good one...

                                                                        [–]DrHoppenheimer 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                        Once you include the cost of those new refineries, it's not going to make gas cheaper.

                                                                        [–]QuantumInteger 17ポイント18ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                                        Canada doesn't have the refineries. Very few countries do. Venezuela sends its oil to Texas to be refined before being sold on the market.

                                                                        [–]BloodyIron 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        Is this... the New World Order?

                                                                        [–]wazzel2u 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        This is so much awesomeness. Business lobbyists are stunned that they are unable to purchase the outcome that they demand.

                                                                        [–]rindindin 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        This is Canada's time to shine.

                                                                        Time to stay the fuck out of that "deal".

                                                                        [–]KingofNordicAliens 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        I am pretty sure that this tension is between our governments and wealthy elite. Also hopefully we will have someone come into office that will shut that down.

                                                                        [–]looklistencreate 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        Well, whatever happens with this, Canada's still a party to NAFTA.

                                                                        [–]pogiface 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        Surprised this isn't banned yet, didn't we get t memo that all talk about this is banned, praise Pao

                                                                        [–]I_love_HowardStern 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                        Why would the Conservative government in Canada have a problem with the TPP?

                                                                        [–]Karrionhardt 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        Great question! The Conservatives are very antsy about opening up the poultry and dairy markets because those farmers have a huge presence in eastern Canada and a lot of them have been very clear they're not thrilled with the TPP.

                                                                        They have an election coming up very soon, and it's looking close enough that they realize they need every vote they can get. More Canadians are pissed about it than rooting for it, and that's why they're being so careful. They likely wouldn't give a shit if they had a clearer chance of winning the election, or if it was further off. But you'll notice they very specifically mention being pissed because details ended up in newspapers - putting the Conservatives between a rock and a hard place.

                                                                        [–]tge90 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        I get it, Its like star wars episode 1 how the emperor Palpatine (obama)wanted to force Queen Amidala(Canada) to sign a treaty. Makes since, soon america will invade Canada then once moooore will the Empire rule the Galaxy....then they will be peace.

                                                                        [–]faployst 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        Good. Lets back out of the deal I'm tired of losing my sovereignty to the USA.

                                                                        Fun fact, Canada mines oil, ships it to Texas where it is refined, then buys it back as petroleum. We have the second largest oil reserve yet we import 100% of our oil. Makes zero sense.

                                                                        [–]LeyfLeyf 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                        If you haven't actively been opposing TPP, then you your rights to complain about it are not there.

                                                                        Im 20 years old, and ive called 6 political figures so far in opposition to TPP. It's NOT HARD! There are websites that will actually dial phone numbers for you.

                                                                        TPP is the beginning of the end of the USA, if you ask me.

                                                                        [–]sugarfreeeyecandy 7ポイント8ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                        Personally, I hope Canada drops out. OTOH, Canadians I know (farmers, coincidentally) are mad that the US has not approved the Keystone pipeline.

                                                                        [–]DMann420 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        “Our focus is not so much the timelines as it is the quality of the outcome for Canadians.”

                                                                        As it should be. I'd much rather Canada get booted out of this shady bullshit partnership than compromise itself for the sake of putting more money into the wallets of American farmers, no offense to them.. But the small time farmers have been hurt enough by big Canadian corporations.

                                                                        [–]69Bandit 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                        God damn, we have already given america the Marijuana market (let them legalize before canada, hold off for long periods to allow them to establish dominance) and now we have to give up our healthcare and allow copyright bullshit from massive american companies to come in and sue our government should we use generic drugs (rather than 200$/pill brand name shit). Ever download TV shows? Our mediatax allowed us to download material and not be charged should we not financially profit from it. That will be gone in favor of "get sued by american companies/3 strikes no internet ever", Dairy/Poultry tariff gets removed and we start eating/drinking the "This shit is illegal in Europe because of the hormones/drugs" products from america and probably about another dozen horrible fucking things that are unknown to the population at this time. This gets passed, i can promise there will be repercussions.

                                                                        [–]PulsarPirate 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        I canuck believe it!

                                                                        [–]Phyllis_Tine 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        Come on, Canada. Hang in there!

                                                                        [–]dagoon79 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        Canada, keep up the pressure.

                                                                        [–]GaugeFOREVER 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        Canada, the people of the U.S. don't want this, from either party, it's our shit government. The people love you!

                                                                        [–]iamthecaptaincrunch 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        Good, I hope we as Canadians will collectively tell these corrupt assholes to take a hike.

                                                                        Hopefully we can make the TPP a big enough election issue that it has the Conservatives running scared in fear of losing to the NDP.

                                                                        [–]beall49 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        I have no tension towards my Northern brothers. I heart them.

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