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MM» Debating HomosexualityIslamic Study / Article (muslimmatters.org)

albadil 投稿

全 81 件のコメント

[–]Lite-brite 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

Q: Why should US legal codes reflect islamic teaching? I think laws should reflect how society functions in real life.

[–]d0e1ow 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't think that was the point of the article. I think it was just trying to paint a picture of the framework by which classical Islamic thought deals with the issue.

[–]Lite-brite -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

The context of this article seems to be the current debate in the west over homosexuality.

[–]Dopple_Deaner 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's to explain the validity of the Islamic view, not to opine on US legal precedent. It's written in response to Muslims who are socially conservative but politically liberal whose peers are now asking them about their views.

[–]Lite-brite -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

the first sentence is about the supreme court decision.

[–]sadeq786 6ポイント7ポイント  (16子コメント)

Excellent piece

[–]qeqkuf 5ポイント6ポイント  (15子コメント)

Do you believe that homosexuals that engage in sexual activities should be stoned to death?

[–]sadeq786 0ポイント1ポイント  (12子コメント)

If they do it lewdly in front of four witnesses, then the hudud punishment for this should be applied. Sure.

[–]qeqkuf 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

If there are no witnesses, then no stoning? What if they live openly as a gay couple, Like gay people usually do in the West (e.g., go to restaurant, walk holding hands, kiss)?

[–]sadeq786 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

AFAIK, that doesn't meet the criteria for stoning. According to my understanding, that would result in a tazir punishment which can be decided upon by the judge. Either way, that is unacceptable and sinful behavior in an Islamic society and it will certainly be discouraged vehemently.

[–]leopold_s 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Does that mean all gay porn actors should be stoned to death?

[–]sadeq786 -5ポイント-4ポイント  (3子コメント)

If they live in a country which implements the sharia legal system, then yes.

[–]leopold_s 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

How about we let people live that don't hurt anyone, and let Allah alone judge them, after their natural death?

[–]Omnicide 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's silly, Allah needs us to kill the people that sin! He's almighty after all.

[–]HulaguKan 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

See, that's the problem I have with Islam.

"Torturing someone to death is perfectly fime as long as the bureaucratic requirements are followed".

How on earth can anyone benok with this?

[–]qeqkuf 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

By the way, when you say "do it lewdly in front of four witnesses", you actually mean, if they are caught by four witnesses. Meaning, they could be hiding, but if they get caught by four witnesses they get stoned, correct?

[–]sadeq786 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

If all four testify that they saw penetration clearly, then yes.

[–]acct00 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Do you believe that leptons are compound particles?

[–]qeqkuf 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hahah, I'm I correct to interpret your question as saying that my question has nothing to do with the article? I think it is somewhat related to the article. The article itself is a bit philosophical, and I was wondering what were the practical, real-world implications for homosexuals if Islam was the law of the land. After all, the purpose of the article was to help the reader see Islam's position in a more compelling light, that the position is not grounded in "sheer hate, bigotry, prudery, etc." The author rejects the idea that Islam is oppressive to homosexuals, based on philosophical arguments. But, is it true that Islam commands homosexuals to be killed by stoning or crucifixion?. For me, it would be a very interesting turn of events if I'm talking with someone discussing very deep philosophical ideas, to then conclude with, "Oh yeah, stone the sodomites".

[–]d0e1ow 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Really solid article. Love when I get to read something that employs the language of philosophy. Not too often in my post-college life unfortunately.

[–]Elliot_Loudermilk 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Incredible piece. Best thing I've read all year. I hope everyone takes the time out to read this. It's not an easy leisurely read- it's dense. But it's simply a must read for Muslims in the west- and I'm not using that term lightly.

[–]deranged_derpcat 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

o yes, that was a good read, read this, bros

[–]sibre2001 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Interesting piece. One thing clearly lacking is any empirical evidence that homosexuality causes harm to the partakers or the society within which they reside. He kept referring to what people think, and not providing any evidence of those thoughts being proven.

[–]Lakedaimoniois -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is indeed where the whole piece falls apart for me. He equates tangible demonstrable effects to philosofical and religious opinions.

Also the part about people misunderstanding finding other men objectively attractive or prefering the company of men over women for homosexuality is way off. The few homosexuals I do know preferred the company of women over men when it came to friendship. This seems to be rather common as they can share many of the same interests (not just in who they prefer as a sexual partner).

While it was an interesting read he seems to have many misconceptions about the west and homosexuality that ultimately make for an impressive but unconvincing piece.

[–]Noo- 6ポイント7ポイント  (7子コメント)

As a homosexual, I think it's very good, it reaches a lot of points people fail to make or neglect when arguing about this issue, mainly how desire was associated with morals, something many people just ignore/don't believe in nowadays.

But I wish it would talk about the actual dangers of homosexuality, like the increased chances of STDs, the dangers of anal sex, the unfruitful family, etc..

Also, did I misread or did it talk about abortion in a positive way?

Another thing I don't agree with is saying that homosexuality is different from this otherkin stuff, I think both are made up by humans and not natural.

[–]d0e1ow 11ポイント12ポイント  (6子コメント)

Another thing I don't agree with is saying that homosexuality is different from this otherkin stuff, I think both are made up by humans and not natural.

Then why do you refer to yourself as a homosexual? I think the experience of homosexuality is very real, at least in the sense of same sex attraction. I also believe it when people tell me they just aren't interested in members of the other gender. I mean, what, are they lying to me? Nonsense.

I think that, when you cut away the philosophical debate, the issue comes down to this:

Are you, in your religious life, willing to make the sacrifice it's going to take to follow the path God has ordained for you? Are you going to play mental gymnastics and try and come up with your own "interpretation" and make the claim that homosexuality isn't wrong? Or are you just going to walk away from religion altogether and reject God?

I have SSA as well and I can say that making the choice to not indulge in them is an extremely difficult thing, but when I remember that this is the sacrifice that I make for God it becomes a little easier. It's also probably not as much of a burden for me because I do have a husband, I'm bi-sexual.

Look, I'd never say this off the internet, but I've even found myself attracted to other Muslim women before. Like, the struggle is real. I've actually distanced myself from them before just so I wouldn't have to cope with the feeling. That and lots of praying.

Sometimes I have thought about walking away from faith, especially because people who have never dealt with these feelings before can be totally poisonous about it, talking about us like we are diseased, insane, immoral, damned sinners. It's hard.

I guess I'm getting off an a tangent here. Stay strong. It's not many of us who choose to stay with the faith, and it's hard in a community that rejects us if we dare to speak up about our feelings. I'd never dare tell anyone at my masjid that I have SSA. Like, dream on.

God is our best protector and our best of friends. He's the Beloved that we should strive for. This is the dunya. I just focus on getting out of it as much as I can.

Just came out on /r/Islam. Whoa.

[–]Noo- 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's very real, yes, I just don't think it's part of us, but rather something unnatural that infests in you, like a virus, that comes from outside your body, it's just a personal belief, based on a verse from Quran, but it can be interpreted differently, so again, it's just a personal belief.

And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds? 7:80

I've once swayed to the point where I just decided I want to be with another man, and convinced myself with lies that God can't possibly expect me to ignore my desires. I've managed to get back on the right track after trying several different, psychological and physical methods to control my desires.

I don't share this with anyone I know in real life, too. I doubt they'd keep it to themselves.

[–]Mrdesiballer 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Man I have no idea what you have gone through, but power to you man!

[–]Last_Jedi 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

May Allah help you and protect you throughout your life.

[–]waste2muchtime 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

SSA

Could you clarify what this stands for?

[–]d0e1ow 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Same Sex Attraction

[–]waste2muchtime 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Jazakallahu khayran. May Allah make it easy for you and a source of intinite mercy in the akhirah.

[–]TotesMessenger 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

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[–]OlejzMaku -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Next up: Debating Left-Handedness

[–]ceddya -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

The implicit assumption in this question is that same-sex activity is inherently harmless, but not everyone believes that.

You have a growing problem where many people in the US unfairly conflate all of Islam with extremism, and these people believe that Islam is harmful to society. The argument made by the author against homosexuality can just as easily be applied to Islam in this context. Think about how discriminatory it would be if that were the case. The intellectual dishonesty in this article is astounding, especially since there are literally zero facts or statistics to support any of his assertions.