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Are Jews a 'privileged class' ? (self.socialjustice101)

bardicfury が 投稿

Hi,

I'm Jewish and I wanted to know where Jews stand in the eyes of social justice advocates.

Are Jews considered an 'oppressed class' or a 'privileged class'?

Am I suppose to feel 'white guilt' even though none of my family oppressed people and in fact were constantly oppressed and discriminated against by other white people, arabs and turks?

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[–]defererror 22ポイント23ポイント  (17子コメント)

Am I suppose to feel 'white guilt'

No, nobody's supposed to feel that. That's just a tactic white people use to derail discussions of racism by refocussing the discussion on white feels.

[–]bardicfury[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (16子コメント)

Ok. I've been told by teachers multiple times growing up in public school in the US, as well as at summer camp and my job training that I should feel 'white guilt' due to the 'privilege' that my skin color gives me.

I didn't know I was only told this in lectures and training seminars because the teachers and lecturers and camp counselors wanted to derail the discussion they were having in order to concentrate on the emotions of white people.

[–]camgnostic 16ポイント17ポイント  (15子コメント)

Either your teachers communicated it badly or you misunderstood, or they have a poor understanding of privilege. Educating people about privilege with the goal of making them "feel guilty" is pointless and a waste of time. If you understand your privilege you can use it to work at dismantling systems of oppression, elevating the voices of the underrepresented, ameliorating injustices. If you understand your privilege you can work to avoid wielding it accidentally to silence others or actively benefit from it at the expense of those around you. These are useful purposes to understanding privilege. "Feeling bad" helps no one.

[–]bardicfury[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (14子コメント)

Are Jews a privileged class or aren't they?

[–]camgnostic 4ポイント5ポイント  (13子コメント)

I'm not qualified to answer that, and trying to get an authoritative opinion on privilege is a rabbit-hole that isn't much good. Who's the intersectional kyriarchy authority?

What's the question you're interested in? Do you benefit from Jewish privilege? Look at your life, look at ways it might have benefitted you. Do some self-reflection. What is my answer (random internet person on internet forum) going to do for you. If you agree with whatever answer I give then you didn't need me to say it. If you disagree then you'll argue with me about it. That's not really a learning question.

[–]bardicfury[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (12子コメント)

I am asking to learn. I am not asking this as a trap. I am asking for the opinions of people who are more informed about social justice than I am.

This is a simple question and should not be so difficult to answer. In your opinion, are Jews considered a privileged class or an oppressed class compared to other races and minority groups?

[–]IIIISuperDudeIIII 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

They have historically been both.

Most Jewish people have lighter/white skin, and as a result, experience the privilege that comes with that... Until an anti-Jewish bigot finds out that they are Jewish.

It's a lot like being white and Gay or Trans, in a way.

In any case, I kind of don't believe that you're actually Jewish.

[–]bardicfury[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

I am Jewish. You are making a disgusting accusation.

I went to highschool for two years in the middle east and experienced antisemitism every day once the students learned I was Jewish, even getting beat up for it multiple times. And this was in a school and country that was considered "moderate, progressive and highly educated." I came to Western Europe, thinking I'd escape antisemitism, only to run in to people trying to get me fired from my job for being an "agent of Israel" and a "freemason" and even had a swastika carved in my desk. I wish I was making that shit up.

Fuck you with your "I don't believe you're actually Jewish" horse shit. I consider that accusation, of trying to minimize my Jewish identity, as abject harassment.

This is why I asked the question if Jews are considered privileged to social justice advocates. I have experienced multiple times in seminars and school classes growing up that I have no idea what true discrimination looks like, because I am white skinned. That's why I asked this question. It was not an attempt to trap people or "defeat SJW's". It was an attempt to learn.

[–]trimalchio-worktime 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just so you're aware, we constantly get antagonists coming into this forum pretending to be something they're not thinking it will help them "defeat SJWs" or that their claim of being black or jewish or trans will somehow allow their tired arguments to stand unchallenged.

And honestly the tone you've been commenting with hasn't exactly screamed that this was an attempt to learn.

That being said doubting someone's stated identity is not a helpful or constructive comment and should be kept to oneself on this forum and in real life.

[–]bardicfury[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I am eager to learn. I am being straight, direct and to the point, and asking a straight and direct question.

I am not asking the question as a test. I'm asking because I'm curious as to what the answer is.

There is no need to "defeat SJW's". In my mind, people can have whatever political ideology they want to have. Whether I agree with it or not doesn't matter, as long as they aren't killing or hurting people, good on them. I don't believe in thought policing and forcing everyone to conform to one political opinion.

At the same time, I like hearing and learning about lots of varied viewpoints, so that my personal beliefs can become more educated.

[–]IIIISuperDudeIIII 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

Ok, thanks. I've just experienced a lot of white supremacists who pose as something they're not, in order to prove some point or another. The way you wrote, it sounded like you were one of them. Putting white guilt in scare-quotes, for instance.

[–]bardicfury[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

ok. Don't ever accuse someone of "not actually being Jewish" or not being whatever religion they say they identify as, ever again.

I'm not trying to prove a point but now I am concerned how touchy everyone is in regards to them seemingly not wanting to answer this question. It's bizarre. It seems like people are walking on eggshells when answering what I consider to be a very straight forward question.

[–]WooglyOogly 7ポイント8ポイント  (16子コメント)

The great majority of dialog I've seen on the subject (disclaimer: I'm not jewish either by religion or ethnicity) says that Jewish people can but do not necessarily/always have access to privileges of being white and do not belong to a privileged class.

also I was told that I have no idea what true racism and prejudice looks like.

Whoever said that can eat shit tbh. Though oppression varies and people experience it differently depending on their relative privilege (you can be privileged via your gender or class while oppressed via race or disability, etc) the 'not true racism' is something that people tell racial minorities all the time and it needs to stop, especially when hate crimes are so common at this point.

[–]bardicfury[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (15子コメント)

So Jews are privileged until people find out they are Jewish and start treating them differently because of it?

These laws of privileged are so abstract and vague.

I edited my first post as it was too opinionated and had too many personal examples IMO and too many leading questions.

I don't understand. The holocaust was the biggest atrocity in the past 100 years IMO. Half of our population was exterminated. And still we are a privileged class? Who decides these laws? Rich white WASP academics?

[–]WooglyOogly 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, that's not what I meant. I meant that ethnically jewish people who appear white do not have white privilege and absolutely 100% are oppressed on the basis of race/ethnicity but occasionally have access to white privilege when being perceived as white. Like, people who are or appear white are not at as high a risk for police violence and will by and large fare better in the criminal justice system. This stuff is complicated and influenced by a ton of factors and there's no clean way to cut it.

[–]defererror 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

So Jews are privileged until people find out they are Jewish and start treating them differently because of it?

Have you heard of "passing"?

These laws of privileged are so abstract and vague.

Well yes, they are. Humans have complex social interactions. It's not surprising that things we do and think are abstract and vague.

Who decides these laws? Rich white WASP academics?

Who decided the speed of light? Rich white WASP physicists?

No, the "laws" already exist in people's minds. Academics studying Whiteness and racism are merely attempting to figure out what the laws are.

[–]trimalchio-worktime 2ポイント3ポイント  (11子コメント)

so i think its really important to not view privilege as a system of laws determined by anyone in particular. it's about prejudice. so just think about how prejudice works; people walk around with preconceived notions of how someone will be and then they will believe anything that fits their pre-existing narrative. so like, imagine someone who thinks about "the Jews" and has opinions about how "the jews" are... they're probably going to believe in a ton of stereotypes that are basically warmed over bullshit from the middle ages. and they're going to believe those things about anyone they meet who they find out is jewish. but they're not really that smart obviously, they can't just go around looking at people and telling whether they're Jewish, so when a Jewish person enters their life they don't go around looking for stereotypical behaviors and they don't treat them with the contempt they might otherwise; those behaviors take the revelation through whatever means that they think this person is Jewish. This sort of thing happens to a lot of different groups on a lot of different planes where we have what's called "passing privilege" in that you look close enough to the default privileged group that passers by don't get a head start stereotyping you before they even know the first thing about you. And it's important to remember that the feeling of passing privilege can play tricks on your perception of other people's oppression because for some people they're wearing the oppressive history right out in the open. So, the whole idea of passing privilege doesn't mean that you are privileged, its more like, walking down the street doesn't really feel different from being privileged and that in and of itself is kinda a privilege....

[–]bardicfury[S] -5ポイント-4ポイント  (10子コメント)

....

Is this what they teach sociology majors these days in uni?

Are Jews a privileged class or aren't they, in your opinion.

[–]trimalchio-worktime 9ポイント10ポイント  (9子コメント)

I'm not sure why you're looking for a yes or no answer here; understanding a complex situation requires more than just yes or no answers.

The dominant sociological theory we're all trying to explain here is "intersectionality". Basically the idea that privilege is a concept that functions on many axes at once, so one can be privileged on one axis while oppressed on another and receive both the privilege and the oppression. So while someone might be Jewish and thus has a history of oppression, they might also be perceived as "white" and experience privilege. So, it's like trying to ask whether both a yes and a no are a yes or a no; the question doesn't make sense and is asking for an oversimplification.

[–]bardicfury[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

What privileges do you personally believe that Jews experience? What forms of oppression do you believe that Jews experience?

[–]trimalchio-worktime 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

So the whole point of intersectionality is that it's not about some underlying privilege of being jewish; it's about privileges that exist in the society that some Jews are given on the basis of some other attribute. Jews who look white are able to experience at least some level of white privilege. At the same time "whiteness" is a very convoluted concept itself that has roots in multiple exclusionary principles that have a patchwork of what was meant in different time periods. But almost everyone has a basic idea of what "whiteness" is because in modern american discourse it generally does mean any skin light enough to look british or german.

So, the oppression that Jews receive is itself really convoluted too; like, the Holocaust is a huge part of how we relate to the idea that Jews are oppressed but at the same time it's a terrible image to bring up when you're really trying to illuminate the fact that antisemitism is still very real and politely accepted cultural norm in a lot of places, just like other forms of racism that have gruesome histories but are being ignored and swept under the rug as hard as they can be. So, in all of these situations the difficult part is not bringing up the cultural touchstones of the great evils of racism, but rather it is important to identify the very real and harmful stereotypes that are still being perpetuated against all sorts of people for all sorts of terrible reasons. And it's important to recognize that even without a universally recognizable symbol of other people's oppression, any stereotypes are harmful and need to be culled from our minds on an active basis to avoid perpetuating exactly the same sort of thinking that would be used against ourselves.

[–]bardicfury[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

so is no one privileged or oppressed then? For example, in your opinion, are there some minorities with less privilege than other minorities? What minorities are those? Where do Jews rank on the oppressed minority ladder?

Are all oppressed minorities at the same level?

[–]trimalchio-worktime 9ポイント10ポイント  (5子コメント)

The whole point of intersectionality is that there's no point in playing "oppression olympics" or to otherwise "rank" oppressive axes. They combine in non-obvious ways and individual experience will always be at least slightly different from any preconceived notion of how social systems will work. So like, the most important part is to never think of some "minority ladder" or about who's more or less privileged. You just have to get comfortable with the idea that different people's experiences are only able to be relayed by others and the only way to understand is to listen to them and integrate their experiences.

So like, it's not like there's only one level of oppression and it's also not like there's some ranking of levels. oppression and privilege are way too complicated for that to make any sense. the benefit of intersectionality is that it allows you the system by which you can pick apart one person and view many different ways in which they DO and DONT experience oppression or privilege, and it also helps you keep your mind open to new things that might be going on outside of your notice and influence their experience or even your own.

[–]bardicfury[S] 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm beginning to understand what you're saying now.

Thank you very much for being patient and explaining :) I will read more about intersectionality so I can gain an even more clearer understanding.

Because from the outside looking in, and SJW's I've interacted with in real life, it does seem like there was a kind of oppression olympics thing going and a hierarchy of minorities. I am glad I was wrong about that part!

Thanks!

[–]flatsperm 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

On this point I can sympathize with OP's frustration (even if this is ironically the comment that's bringing them around). It is so clear that in social justice people have an implicit understanding of how different oppressions rank against each other, that when other people come from the outside wanting this information and don't get it, that's frustrating.

When someone comes in here and says "I'm not black but I understand oppression just as well because I'm an atheist", they'll get ridicule for that. While acknowledging individual variation, we're supposed to understand that overall, being black outranks being an atheist at getting oppressed.

[–]theduckparticle 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can have privilege coming from one thing and disprivilege from another. Whether those balances out to make your life better or shittier depends on the circumstances.

In the US at least, "white" and "Jewish" are not typically considered separate racial categories anymore, so in that sense you wind up in the privileged group. On the other hand as you've experienced there is still a decent amount of anti-semitism around, so in that case you can rightly consider that the way the majority culture interacts with you because of your ethnic background leads to disprivgilege.

[–]probablyposiblysatan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can't tell who is being more of a douche here. Jewish people are oppressed. There is no such thing as Jewish privilege. If one is white passing (regardless of ethnicity) , they may get certain benefits of white privilege (not being pulled over for their skin color ect.). But it's not really a privilege since as soon as someone finds out you're not really white they're gonna try and kill you.

[–]MyHorseIsHigher 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Jews are an oppressed class, not a privileged one. No Jew should have to feel 'jewish guilt' or anything like that; anyone who tries to accuse a Jew of being white or an oppressor is an antisemite.

[–]yellowmadgey 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

I'm less than convinced you're here in good faith. Maybe you should find some other "asshole SJW group" to troll?

https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/3bvhub/did_wwe_ever_acknowledge_and_apologize_for_all_of/csqtmf3?context=3

http://i.imgur.com/5FDSaEj.jpg

[–]trimalchio-worktime[M] 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

This really isn't something to comment back to the OP; if you're worried that someone is coming in just to be antagonistic, send a modmail please.

At the same time, people who aren't 100% on board with the social justice or have had negative encounters with certain ideas are absolutely welcome here as long as long as they're civil and asking questions more than debating the responses they get.

[–]bardicfury[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

I am here to learn. There is no need to stalk my page and attempting to assassinate my character. Are you attempting to thought-shame me XD? There is no need to accuse me of being a troll simply because I am trying to expand my knowledge and learn about viewpoints I do not understand and have knowledge about. There is no need to be so hostile towards someone who is trying to learn more about social justice.

Do you understand there's a difference between social justice advocates who work in good faith and "asshole SJW groups" who IMO often go too far?

I am asking a question in good faith. Why are people so afraid to answer it honestly? It is not a difficult or loaded question. I am eager to learn different view points and perspectives from my own.

In your opinion, are Jews a privileged or oppressed class, according to the hierarchy of oppression?

[–]yellowmadgey 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

There is no need to stalk my page and attempting to assassinate my character.

Quoting you isn't assassinating your character. I am not taking anything out of context. You are clearly opposed to "asshole SJW"s, and are clearly not here in good faith.

are Jews a privileged or oppressed class

Your question has been answered

It's not a one or the other answer, regardless of what you think of what "they teach sociology majors these days in uni".

[–]bardicfury[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

As long as you say you are not attempting to shame me or assassinate my character in order to avoid answering the simple question, I will take you at good faith.

I do not group everyone who advocates for social justice in to the same boat. Like all groups of people, some social justice advocates, are indeed assholes. What point are you trying to prove by quoting be saying "asshole SJW's"?

My question has not been answered. My question has been avoided by everyone in here.

It is not a difficult thing to answer.

In your opinion, are Jews an oppressed class or a privileged class?

What are examples of privilege that Jews experience?

What are examples of oppression that Jews experience?

There is no need to be so hostile and accusatory. There is no need to deflect in order to avoid answering. I am simply asking a simple question :)

I am part of a minority group and want to know where I stand on the hierarchy of oppression. Please do not mock me and take my question less seriously simply because you don't like my religion. There is no need to troll me because of my religion. The fact that you are afraid to give your honest opinion is very telling.

[–]yellowmadgey 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The entire WWE post shows you to have disdain for basic principles of social justice.

I don't think they should apologize (for rampant homophobia)

I just know in this current age where political correctness is running wild

Political correctness is ruining everything.

I agree with you.

I hate political correctness as much as the next sane person

I dont like this PC butthurt culture that is taking over the western world

etc

That's not you having a problem with "some social justice advocates".

In your opinion, are Jews an oppressed class or a privileged class?

THIS HAS BEEN ANSWERED. It's not one or the other.

In some cases jewish people experience oppression in the form of anti-semitism.

In some cases jewish people experience intersectional privilege (higher class/education/etc)

Some jewish people never experience the former. Some jewish people never experience the latter.

I am simply asking a simple question :)

I don't know why you think you've found some amazing question to defeat "SJWs". you really haven't

[–]bardicfury[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

WWE is live theater. Should Dennis Hopper have to apologize for calling people faggots in film roles? I thought about the issue and don't think WWE or any of the actor/wrestlers involved should need to apologize for performances. If any of them actually did oppress and discriminate against gay people, yes I am disgusted by that. All I know is that now the only openly gay wrestler on the roster, Darren Young is treated very well and just like any other wrestler which is how things should be IMO.

I do believe that extreme political correctness is ruining everything. For example, Tim Hunt, a Nobel Prize Winnter working to cure cancer, was driven out of his lab away from his work because of a sexist joke he made that was reported out of context. A man lands a rocket on a comet and this is attacked by a twitter bandwagon witchhunt brigade because a shirt he was wearing with a cartoon woman on it. And then it turns out his female colleague made the shirt for him as a gift and asked him to wear it on TV to help advertise her shirt business. However, I am open to the idea that I am wrong about my current beliefs on political correctness. That's why I wish to learn different perspectives and belief systems which is why I came here. That is why I ask questions.

There is no need to make these attempts at deflection. Yes I wrote that WWE post. I also am open minded to the fact that the viewpoint I had at the time of writing that post was incorrect, which is why I am eager to learn new viewpoints. There is no need for you to attempt to shame me for having ideas and thought patterns that disagree with your own.

People can have disdain for something without fully understanding it. Then they can either remain in ignorance, or make attempts to learn and understand different perspectives from their own. There is no need to be so hostile and accusatory.

Thank you for somewhat answering my question.

"In some cases jewish people experience intersectional privilege (higher class/education/etc)"

Can you please clarify what you mean by saying "higher class" and "education" in regards to privilege please? I know that my parents growing up stressed education heavily on me, but I never had access to any academic scholarships due to my religion and culture.

I am asking questions in order to learn. I am not trying to "defeat SJW's" as you so succinctly put it :)

It is not an amazing or difficult question to answer. That is why I am wondering why it is so difficult for people in SJW101 to answer it directly.

[–]smayple 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Probably oppressed if they don't "pass" as white and non-Jewish. You can't really think they aren't oppressed given that whole business with Germany. A group can't really get more oppressed than literally genocide, and a lot of the ill feelings towards them that caused that still exist today

[–]REAL_CONSENT_MATTERS 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

since you seem to be looking for a more straight forward response, the short answer is that 'white' is considered a privileged class and 'jewish' is considered an oppressed class. the white privilege comes in relative to arab, black, etc jewish people, not in comparison to non-jewish white people. this is similar to how a white disabled person could be discriminated against through disability, but she wouldn't be discriminated against with a cause of 'for being white.'

anyone who argues that 'jew' itself is a privileged class outside the state of israel is just being bigoted, whereas someone arguing that an individual jewish person is privileged may or may not be acting bigoted depending on the situation.

[–]bardicfury[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

when did arab come to mean not white by the way? Arabs generally consider themselves to be white and genetically are white. Turks as well consider themselves to be white but are generally grouped as an 'oppressed class' by social justice advocates and are even classed as 'black' according to the UK's National Union of Students. Bahar Mustafa for example is Turkish-Cypriot. Cyprus and Turkey are both nations of white people, but she herself and the NUS say she is 'black' and a 'minority' even though she is genetically white and her family comes from a country (Cyprus) where the people consider themselves to be white.

[–]defererror 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

genetically white

That's not a thing. Race is a social construct, not biologically determined. Depending on where somebody is in time and space they may be considered to be one race or another.

[–]bardicfury[S] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (4子コメント)

not really. Only in sociology lala land that ignores biology.

[–]defererror 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

I take it you haven't studied much biology or sociology?

[–]bardicfury[S] -5ポイント-4ポイント  (2子コメント)

I take it that you like to reject biology in favor of sociology if biological fact goes against your political agenda?

[–]defererror 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Go ask a geneticist.

[–]REAL_CONSENT_MATTERS 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

most of the people here are not going view race as a purely biological construct, but regardless you can tell that laws and people's beliefs about race often aren't based on 'biology', yes? in which case people are just talking about a different thing than you seem to mean by 'race'.

some people do literally reject the institution of biology in its current form, but more often people are just choosing to focus on the human side of the problems because beliefs, social structures, laws, etc all change much more rapidly than dna or what have you.

[–]REAL_CONSENT_MATTERS 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

[edit: oh wait, in my original reply i missed that you're the op. whoops. i'll rephrase this.]

basically most of us would say race is a cultural construct, not biology, and that who is or isn't treated as white is mostly politics and economics. in the united states 'white' as a construct grew from a certain european settler population asserting itself over the native population, which also privileged and eventually fully included other euro-immigrant populations (italians, etc). being viewed as white by cyprus' culture doesn't help you much if you're stuck in the us or uk and most english language social justice discourse is us/uk centric. on a larger scale there's also the history of euro imperialism messing up the middle east and harming people's lives.

people will argue about this, 'are arab people really white,' but that's a discussion i try to stay away from myself.