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[–]MimesAreShite 209ポイント210ポイント211ポイント 3時間前 (118子コメント)

To give some my thoughts on the pro-ban-those-shitty-places side of the argument (which mainly echo yours, but still):

The major problem with these communities is they leak. Like, a lot. They don't keep themselves to themselves; their toxic agendas find their ways all over the site, their tendrils fondling their pet issues wherever they crop up on the site, and they influence the overall tone and attitude of the site in a very negative manner.

I mean, you only have to look at any /r/news or /r/videos post involving black people, or any /r/worldnews post involving Muslims, to see the respective influences of the American and European far-right on reddit's attitude towards certain topics. I've seen comments advocating genocide towards Muslims on /r/worldnews; I've seen a comment that was simply the word "niggers" voted to the top of a frontpage /r/videos thread; I've seen comments by posters in notorious far-right and racist communities highly upvoted in these and other large subreddits. And I'm sure we've all seen the large collections of violent crime statistics, taking advantage of reddit's affinity for long, convincing-looking lists and utilising the effective "information overload" tactic of debate to spread racist propaganda that would take such a long time to debunk, refute and contextualise that it becomes a pointless exercise (a lie can travel halfway around the world...).

Which brings me on to another point: reddit, as a society, is very easily led. This is partly down to (among other things, I imagine): the voting system on this site, which encourages people to ascribe positive value to anything upvoted and vice versa, and also results in people mindlessly upvoting anything already upvoted (I know I'm guilty of both of those), and a large population of intellectually-minded teenagers on this site that are susceptible to what one user called second-option bias. The result of this is that this propaganda is reaching a wide audience, influencing the views of many people on the site, polluting various communities and, in some cases, converting the impressionable. It doesn't come as any shock to me that the admins would like to attempt to curb this effect, and create a society where racists can't so easily proliferate.

The other question is: would this work? Would the removal of these toxic communities improve the rest of the site? Well, the only case study we have for this is /r/fatpeoplehate, and, anecdotally, I have seen a lot less hatred against fat people in default subs, and especially a lot less fph meme posts ("found the fatty!") since the outcry against its removal died down. Of course, whether this would have a similar effect on issues as well-established and insidious as racism is another question entirely. But I think taking away their hives would, to some extent, have a positive effect - it would, at the very least, give people won over by the racist shit that gets upvoted on the defaults at times one less place to go to confirm and strengthen their new-found biases.

[–]SherlockBrolmes 50ポイント51ポイント52ポイント 3時間前 (5子コメント)

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[–]Tercotta 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 3時間前* (0子コメント)

The major problem with these communities is they leak. Like, a lot. They don't keep themselves to themselves; their toxic agendas find their ways all over the site, their tendrils fondling their pet issues wherever they crop up on the site, and they influence the overall tone and attitude of the site in a very negative manner.

This is why we need to actually ban the hate subreddits.

Imagine Reddit as a beautiful lawn. Perfectly pristine with not a single weed in sight. But then you notice in the corner of your lawn is a big patch of dandelions. You think these came from your neighbours yard, because their's is full of dandelions. You can't deal with the weeds on your neighbours yard, thats their property you can only touch your own yard. The only way to limit the weeds on your land is to to ensure every single one dies. If you try to just build a wall around the weeds they'll just spread past it, wind will carry the seeds all over your lawn. And then you're growing a whole field of dandelions.

Pull them out by the root, spray em with herbicide, burn them with napalm, it doesn't matter how but it needs to happen. It will be hard, and it may have short term negative effects on that part of the yard, the weeding may even kick some seeds around the rest of the lawn at first. But the weeds will keep coming, and you'll have to keep uprooting them always. But if you ever want to have a nice yard again you have to attack it at the source. Once you lose your yard to the dandelions you can't get it back.

If your negihbours yard is the hate groups like stormfront getting their shit all over reddit, and the dandelions the /r/coontown's of the world, Reddit staff/policy needs to go to war with a jug of Roundup.

[–]Bilgistic 28ポイント29ポイント30ポイント 3時間前 (4子コメント)

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[–]RodrigoPer -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 3時間前 (2子コメント)

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[–]OlympicHockey 135ポイント136ポイント137ポイント 3時間前 (26子コメント)

I don't agree with anything you said, however, if I set aside my disagreement and play by the type of rules you're advocating for I demand that a subreddit you're a moderator of be removed as it offends me. r/BestofOutrageCulture is subreddit that links to and provides a forum where individuals post a users comments and proceed to harass, make fun of and completely dismiss what that person has to say. Furthermore, most of the user quotes submitted overlap on various topics. You're a moderator of a sub dedicated to pointing out and bullying users into silence as any user can be pushed into silence for fear of being mocked and harrassed on a subreddit you moderate.

Merely creating a subreddit dedicated to making fun of users with "wrong" POVs definitely contributes to what spez is saying is directly against the rules.

Anything that harasses, bullies, or abuses an individual or group of people (these behaviors intimidate others into silence)

You're effectively using a (subreddit) watch list as a threat to users that you don't agree with. Users have and will continue to be publicly shamed and humiliated in an echo chamber.

There are dozens of these type of subreddits including r/shitredditsays and r/subredditdrama. Under your and Spez rules these subreddits should be banned without a second thought. Silencing/Publicly shaming users is a cut and dry rule and it's constantly violated.

It's clear to me that you want to stifle conversation and bully those that you disagree as you're an active participant in doing so. You want your bully pulpit protected because you believe you're doing the right thing and all other views or opinions need to be silenced.

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[–]Roez 40ポイント41ポイント42ポイント 3時間前* (3子コメント)

I am curious how they are going to define, "Anything that incites harm or violence against an individual or group of people." What's extremely offensive to some--provoking fear, retaliation, outrage--won't be to others.

Is the Confederate Flag off limits? Some say this lead to murder, others say it's simply a historical item. What about showing Muhammad cartoons? Some say these might lead to violence, others quite literally see it as harmless expression. These are current issues where large groups do not see the same meaning, and disagree about their affects and effects.

Again, how do you define what is inciting or not? Is there a degree of offense that's too much, or is the definition limited to a strictly literal meaning (aka, Let's do x, y or z).

As an aside, a "know it when you see it" type of answer will belie the point. Quite simply, people will see these things and their meaning differently. reddit posts breach a wide, pervasive array of issues and discussion. There needs to be a solid conveyance what the boundaries are, at least more than this definition, and not ambiguous.

[–]youonlylive2wice 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]RedditorJemi 19ポイント20ポイント21ポイント 2時間前 (2子コメント)

Since when is an AMA an excuse for commenters to soapbox? The parent comment has almost no questions, but has about 1622 words. The main 'question' refers to a 'button'. It is not specified what this button is. The content of this parent is clearly designed to lump the various unrelated groups that /u/mach-2 disagrees with into one gigantic, supposed 'hate group'. The 'venn diagram' referred to by this post is obviously inaccurate and is designed merely to associate free speech with any and all of the supposed haters that mach-2 and other SJW's disagree with. It's obvious to me and anyone who pays attention to history that many bigots have promoted censorship as a way of controlling dissent, and that would be very unlikely to not include bigots who post on reddit.

This reference to an unspecified 'button' is also disturbing for another reason: it implies that Steve Huffman and Alex Ohanian might know what this button is, when the rest of reddit does not. If Steve Huffman does not know what this button is, he should make it clear, and he should also make it clear whether reddit is a place for people to post who disagree with feminism and SJW's. The shadowbanning that has been happening has certainly left the impression that disagreeing with the feminist and SJW narrative is a good way to get banned. Reddit needs to make it clear right now whether or not they will make it unambiguously clear that reddit is a safe place for people who oppose SJW's. If reddit engages in any kind of politically discriminatory bannings or other punitive actions, including punishing some groups for X while allowing others, like 'shitredditsays', to get away with X, then this is politically discriminatory. Will reddit take politically discriminatory actions, or not?

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[–]kfkz 73ポイント74ポイント75ポイント 3時間前 (23子コメント)

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[–]modestmoos 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 3時間前 (6子コメント)

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[–]MyPunsSuck 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)

You state your position well, and clearly reflect the position of Reddit in general (otherwise your post wouldn't have bubbled to the top), but I have a few issues with the amount of hyperbole expressed. Your position would be strengthened, rather than weakened, if it were stated more plainly and factually. That said, there are a few points I disagree with; anything I don't mention, you can assume I completely agree with.

The venn diagram of those clamoring for completely unmitigated "free speech" and those looking for an audience to proselytize about their hate groups is a circle. That is not to say every proponent of free speech is a racist/sexist bigot.

That is exactly what it implies. You can be damned sure that there are an awful lot of people who care about free speech for its own sake despite the potential for hateful communication. You can also be sure that plenty of hateful people would love to censor their opposition, so the "oscillating circle" analogy simply fails on all accounts.

There is a common belief that Redditors make accounts in order to unsubscribe from the default subreddits. What does that say about the state of your website when the default communities are brimming with toxicity and hatred?

I don't know about you, but I unsub from the defaults because the quality of their content is way too low. The low-effort karma-whoring rises to the top, and actual interesting and relevant content becomes increasingly vulnerable to vote manipulation. I have never noticed any more casual racism/sexism/homophobia on reddit in general than in "real life", and I live in probably the most accepting and polite country in the world. The problem of hateful content, although very real in its designated areas, is not endemic to the mainstream subs.

Diplomacy has failed. There is no compromise.

I'm not sure this has ever been true in the history of mankind. My understanding is that people compared Pao to Mao because it's a pun, and because her public image was incredibly bad at the time. If mismanaged as poorly as reddit has handled recent events, the general populace will always lash out in an exaggerated fashion. That is a simple fact of mankind, and no change can be made to save reddit from this fate.

you might want to make sure that face is acne free and not hidden behind a klan hood

Let's try not to get carried away. Not everybody who screws up is evil. Unmoderated subs are crappy, to be sure, but the will of the populace (the vote system) alone keeps them from being anything like 4chan where overt racism is treated like their standard language for the sake of some stupid inside jokes. To say that unmoderated subs are "klan rallies" is just way too far removed from reality. It's kinda bad, but nowhere near that bad.

Will banning hate subs solve the problem? No.

Then why do it? Better to have them in one place where we can all agree that "those people" are horrible and wrong, than to martyr them and force them to interact with us directly. Many people will rally behind free speech, and to censor even the most abhorrent of legal content is to legitimize their authenticity. The charade is that they are all about hate, yet pretend to be about free speech, or protecting their way of life, or anything but hate, really. To lash out at them proves that their way of life is under attack, and that free speech really is being taken away from them. Leave them alone, and they will fester in a corner where everybody else can comfortably disagree with everything they believe.

It used to be folk wisdom to cut the head off a snake

It used to be folk wisdom to stone witches, but I think we're better than "folk wisdom" when it comes to making difficult multifaceted decisions.

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They are just the "usual suspects" of the SRS/SRD Offendatron brigade that always show up and shit their societal views down everyone's throat. And despite whatever mach-2 (crybaby extraordinaire) is currently spewing their moral judgement upon, there is actually very little difference between the Fempire/Chimpire hategroups.

I tagged all of these braindead-brigadiers a long time ago in unflattering yellow with words like "boohoo," and it's hilarious to see them all constantly seek out and engage in the same victimized drama, over and over and over. And it's always the same tired group of Fempire/SRD mods and members that flock together. They fucking LIVE to get into pointless dramatic squables over the internet. They purposely, actively, and ruthlessly seek out people to disagree with and harass. And it happens all the time. Seriously, tag them. You will see it. A lot.

But don't worry! they aren't in any danger of being banned...they're the "good" harassing/brigading subs!

TL;DR: If you tag these frothing SRS/SRD SJWs in a bright color, you will see them everywhere, purposely seeking out things they disagree with, brigading, causing drama, spewing moral toxicity, and just in general being absolutely insufferable, unpleaseable, hateful violent pricks.

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[–]Aaron215 12ポイント13ポイント14ポイント 3時間前 (7子コメント)

I spend a lot of time on /r/videos.. and whenever I see people post racist, sexist, etc comments, it's usually while digging through the minimized and hidden comments. I feel like it's a bit silly to put /r/videos up there saying that the moderators are "squatting" "inactive" or saying the subreddit is a "festering piles of toxicity".

Those moderators are VERY active, constantly looking for ways to improve and communicating with the user base. I've only once seen a moderator acting immature, and I don't even remember the specific instance, just that it was shocking because it actually happened. It was no worse than the "popcorn" comment though.

While I agree that defaults need to go, I don't agree with you that /r/videos (the only one of those you listed there that I'm actually active on) is a "festering [pile] of toxicity". But after reading the comments below yours saying that it was gilded and upvoted before people even had time to read it, the popularity and validity of this comment is definitely in question for me.

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[–]32OrtonEdge32dh 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)

Imagine you got your lunch from McDonald's every day. If McDonald's shut down, you would survive; you could get food from Wendy's or make it yourself in the morning. But you're eating McDonald's every day, and then McDonald's calls and tells you that you (you personally!) get to come down to H.Q., all expenses paid, and help them decide how they should change the Big Mac recipe. By the time you get there, I expect you'd have some questions and requests ready. More special sauce, more onions, less lettuce, whatever.

Same thing here. People come to reddit for their daily or weekly or however often lunch of information and discussion. When the CEO invites them to come and talk about how their lunch is going to be changed, it makes all the sense in the world to come in ready to say what you want on your plate tomorrow. And if you don't like the finished product, then you know it's time to go to Wendy's.

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[–]_vargas_ 252ポイント253ポイント254ポイント 3時間前 (11子コメント)

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[–]chopsaver -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 2時間前 (3子コメント)

What in the world is compelling about this?

They throw the words "toxicity" and "poison" around as if there is no antidote. As if there is no winning against the scourge of racism, homophobia, and sexism except to shut them down via censorship. But this is a hilariously ineffective way of combating unsavory (or worse, harmful and dehumanizing) ideas. Free speech is amazing because it allows for those ideas to be challenged in open dialogue, so people won't end up just going somewhere else and entrenching themselves in echochambers even further insulated from the rest of the Internet than subreddits are.

A big problem with reddit is that there are no subs or communities dedicated to combating these ideas (those of the chimpire, etc.). The closest we have is maybe /r/shitredditsays, which doesn't really cut it because there's no discussion (they call themselves a "circlequeef") and the community presence doesn't compete with, say, the late /r/fatpeoplehate. Even if reddit wants to be a bastion of free speech, we can challenge the corpuscles of hate (let's remember that most of reddit is mostly about memes and cats, after all) that surface from communities of racists and sexists.

Banning hateful subreddits is communicating that we have no rebuttal to the claims that women are manipulative, that black people are genetically inferior or inherently violent. If tolerance, diversity, feminism, and equality truly are the best and truest philosophies (I believe strongly that they are) then they ought to be capable of changing more minds than the chimpire, and they ought to be put to use in free discourse.

We need communities that act in defiance of hate and bigotry, who offer answers to posts like those at the top of greatapes (most of those are arguments, however poorly articulated and ill-supported) and make it their business to further social justice in a well-reasoned and articulate manner. In my opinion, this is a more effective way to change minds and curtail racism than an admin (even acting according to popular opinion) shutting it down.

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[–]bennjammin 16ポイント17ポイント18ポイント 3時間前 (1子コメント)

The basement of hate subs is no longer a containment. It's a lounge with a beacon. There is no "exchange of ideas/honest discussion" going on. There is only a podium for whatever crank pundit can present the warm milk to the default redditor about the encroachment of the omniscient millennial "social justice warriors/bleeding heart liberals". That's why subs like /r/shitredditsays draw more ire than literal white supremacist hubs like /r/coontown and /r/beatingniggers.

This is a great way to put it. Right now the "internet enemy" is SJWs but it changes with the times. Whatever it is I've always seen these as trolls and spammers since they have the same methods and effects on the community. I'm tired of the defaults being an advocacy platform for whatever small groups of redditors are angry at that year. It hurts the discourse on the site and ruins everything.

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[–]FoxShibe 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)

It's an interesting viewpoint to take this issue as a matter of keeping discussions on the site healthy and not clouded by hate speech. Honestly though I think it's more important to draw a very firm distinction between flimsy hateful rhetoric and non-'politically correct' speech which has merit.

There are many people who are just incapable of hearing certain sides of an argument because they prefer to argue in bad faith for the sake of keeping their conclusions to an argument the same. Alternatively, some prefer instead to make baseless accusations without pushing any real sources for offensive beliefs or else using highly biased reports to back their claims. This is the problem which stems from the worst of both the politically correct and hateful crowd and is the whole reason we've come to this point (aside from the added fact that these discussions have seeped to the forefront of the site).

Honestly, I'm not sure what to believe. I really believe Reddit has something going for it already with being so open. To close out baseless hateful discussions without being prejudiced to either bad faith arguers or else people who prefer to spread offensive comments without basis would be ideal. Sadly, even trying to take a middle ground would be a huge political battle.

If I had to choose I'd keep the hate subs just so offensive-but-'non-politically correct' speech can still be heard. Maybe just stagger what content can be seen by different users and somehow figure out some way to moderate.

The fact that this place is one of the very few I've been able to see people argue against overblown political correctness has been here on Reddit. :/ I'd really hate to lose that honesty.

[–]eajidm 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)

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Follow up question: can you also strip away moderation rights of users like this one who self-appointed themselves the reddit thought police? The ones who go out of their way to ban users who have never posted in their sub-reddit but posted in one they don't like?

Been here something like 8 years, and I haven't run afoul of the "Chimpire". Seems like the racists are self segregated and aren't actively hurting anyone. If I have had a debate with someone posting there on "regular" reddit, they were no more hostile or nice than any regular redditor (which is a pretty big mixed bag, surprise surprise).

I have apparently run afoul of mods like you, despite not posting in your subs, and that you actively go out of your way to PC police reddit as a whole is why SRS and the fempire have drawn ire. It's nice to know branding and scarlet letters are still around in the 21st century by high minded people like yourself.

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That's why subs like /r/shitredditsays[5] draw more ire than literal white supremacist hubs like /r/coontown[6] and /r/beatingniggers[7] .

Bullshit.

Shitreddit says and other similar subs get the hatred they get, not because they stand for something redditors are against, but because 1) they have gone out and made themselves a public figure over time, and 2) most redditors see them as a thing others will call "right", while they consider it wrong.

I wouldn't begin to doubt most would hate all the racist subs out there, but you have to remember that they are largely ignored, it's obvious they are wrong, it's obvious they are stupid, and so on. There is no discussion or anger to be had. They are left alone.

However, we have cases of (admins? Some figure in reddit) praising places like /r/shitredditsays for what they do. A large segment of society supports them, and that conflict draws ire.

Places like /r/science[12] are top quality precisely because they are moderated. Places like /r/pics[13] and /r/videos[14] become klan rallies precisely because they are not.

/r/science have strict rules because they have a strict subject matter that makes sense to moderate in a good way.

/r/pics and /r/videos are not /r/science, they have no basis to ban information outside of "I don't like their opinions!". There is a difference between those subs, and there is a different between how well they can be moderated.

The current defaults are over run with this toxic reactionary internet based hate groups

And our government was overrun by communists as well!

The recent Ellen Pao lynch mob is a perfect example of that. She was called a cunt and then Chairman Pao and then things like "ching chong" got tossed around.

I'm not the sort of person who has stormfront friends, or redpiller friends, but I hear this sort of language used occasionally. "these people said bad things" isn't much at all of a statement, as a very large majority of the modern first world uses that sort of language when they dislike a person. Angry people curse, call each other mean things, and so on. People were angry at Pao.

The sub is still thriving and growing.

Did the sub slow in growth? Would the sub have otherwise had higher growth? How were policies implemented, what sort of posts have been removed? Did the drama cause a temporary surge in users?

This is your house. This is your creation. They are squatters here.

Imagine if a nation took up that view about a group within it.

"Reddit isn't a nation". No, but the banning or removal of ideas or points of view is just as wrong here as it is wrong for a nation to attempt to do the same.

If they don't abide by the rules, it is your prerogative to grab them by the scuff and deport them.

Many of them do abide by the rules, and many of those groups are in those subreddits you list.

Reddit has been called

Reddit should not change based on what some news sites insults the site with.

Coontown currently has activity rivalling stromfront

Quite possibly a testament to the size of reddit, and it's ability to encouraged participation.

The Southern Poverty Law Center calls reddit “a worse black hole of violent racism than Stormfront,” documenting at least 46 active subreddits devoted to white supremacy like /r/CoonTown[65] .

Ideas should not be banned, again, because some group speaks against them.

"There are many white supremacist subreddits" is not "there are a bunch of subreddits organizing and pushing violence". If they were doing that, then reddit would ban them, and has banned subreddits which do that in the past.

Will banning hate subs solve the problem? No. But it's a goddamn good place to start.

Unless it makes the issue worse.

Ideas do not go away when banned or restricted, they fester and grow stronger. Ban an idea and it will cause people to seek it out.

They do not deserve to have a platform of hate in the form of Reddit.

They deserve a platform to express their views just as much as any other.

I don't care if they are nazis, KKK members, or mini-hitlers, their views should be able to be expressed, and able to be heard.

If they aren't, we turn our moral system from one based in "this is why they are wrong" to "they are just wrong", and as soon as you do that, and time passes, people will no longer be able to say why an idea is so bad, and we will be far less equipped to prevent history repeating itself.

It used to be folk wisdom to cut the head off a snake and burn the wound to prevent it from growing back.

And that wisdom comes from an era when religious governments would kill, stone, and burn people who dared stand against their ideas.

We should never return to that era, even if it is only in the form of banning people from speaking on a platform which should be open to all ideas, and even if those ideas are proven and known to be harmful to society when people hold them.

Turn your logic around, imagine a reddit full of conservative christians from the 60's, talking about how we ought to ban /r/ainbow because they propagate and cause more people to become gay, and that hurts society.

Yeah, it sounds absurd, the two subjects are different entirely! However, to a person growing up and living in a different environment, they don't.

There is a fine line to be drawn, and I agree the line should move more towards where you stand, but I also think you take it way too far.

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[–]bigDean636 -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 3時間前* (0子コメント)

/u/mach-2 making another great post. I just want to add one more voice to this. I am a straight, white, middle class man. I work in the tech industry. I am not an '"other'" in any way. I am reddit's core demographic. And I'm so tired of what reddit has become. It gets exhausting. And there's tons of people like me. People who have long since given up ever having conversations on the biggest subreddits. The bigger a subreddit becomes, the more it will lean toward misogyny, racism, Islamophobia, and fatphobia UNLESS it is heavily moderated. Look at /r/TwoXChromosomes . That subreddit is basically /r/MensRights at this point.

There are lots of people who are just so tired of the CONSTANT, UNENDING hate coming from large subreddits that we have simply fled. We hang out in the metasphere or in small subreddits like /r/CasualConversation. It gets exhausting CONSTANTLY hearing about how terrible women and black people are. And there's no changing minds. After your ten thousandth argument on the internet, you realize that you are just wasting your own time. There's no point. This web site honestly believes that false rape accusations are an epidemic. This web site honestly believes that child porn is nothing but "zeroes and ones on a disk". This web site honestly believes that feminists want emasculate all men. YOU have the power to change that, right now. As /u/mach-2 said, this is your watershed moment.

You have the power to make reddit usable again for the millions of users that have given up ever commenting or posting on default subreddits. This is YOUR web site. You never had and never will have an obligation to host hate communities.

Edit: Aside from the entire "Chimpire" that /u/mach-2 outlined, I'd like to see /r/TheRedPill, /r/Candidfashionpolice, /r/rapingwomen /r/beatingwomen /r/picsofdeadkids /r/philosophyofrape, /r/pussypassdenied, /r/european /r/punchablefaces banned

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[–]Wariya 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前* (0子コメント)

The sentiment in this polemic and others like it are exactly why I deleted my several years old account. I'm fine with reddit giving up on being a bastion of free speech, if that's what it wants to do that's their choice, but I can say that it kills my desire to stay here even though I find the coontown and Chimpire folks to be human filth.

I just can't be a part of a website that silences people. Even if those people are human scum whose message is detestable and based on everything that is bad about human nature. I know and understand that bigots use this very same rhetoric to excuse their flinging of hatred at people - - but that doesn't change the very real aversion I feel towards contributing to this site with such a policy in place. I'm as sad to leave as administration is to have to implement such a policy, but the AMA announcement and this AMA post signal to me they are doubling down, not reconsidering. So it's time to move on.

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