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[–]Prescript2 572ポイント573ポイント  (181子コメント)

No such thing as white privilege.

Every white privelege is simply an inverse of a disadvantage experienced by another race. Not being discriminated against is not a privilege, its the zero line that everyone deserves.

Are happy and successful black people who haven't been discriminated against privileged? (They exist.) No, of course not, they are simply treated right.

Because every privilege is hiding its inverse discrimination, every mention of privilege is a wasted opportunity to talk about the real problem. These people will not do anything that will disrupt their lives to help black people and so resort to disarming these problems by making it about themselves and punishing themselves. This alleviates guilt and allows them to continue normally while doing nothing for real.

People talk about black grievance in this guise because they don't like dealing with real issues and want to self pity.

They elevate basic rights to privileges, bringing discrimination to the zero line. This also has the effect of demoralising everyone involved, making them not ask for more in life which everyone should be striving for without guilt and how the powers that be would love everyone to be like. Divide and conquer.

Before I am punished for telling the truth I would like to point out I am a gay black man.

Peace and love to all mankind. Please be nice to eachother, in comments there is too much hate. Hurting one type of person won't help another type.

Please watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX25PDBb708

[–]nrobi 12ポイント13ポイント  (4子コメント)

This is a glass half full/half empty distinction you're making. When people say "white people have advantages," of course the inverse is "people of color have disadvantages." The difference is only semantic.

Also, worth noting that much of the prejudice against certain groups of people does provide a clear advantage for white people. An example is housing discrimination: if it's harder for black people to get houses, it is easier for white people by necessity.

[–]antieverything 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah, but if it makes me, as a white guy, feel bad about myself there must be some mistake, right? Isn't the end goal of social justice that white dudes get to stop feeling bad? And this only makes me feel worse!

[–]CheeseDrink 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Isn't the end goal of social justice that white dudes get to stop feeling bad?

I'm not sure if you've been paying attention to the same "social justice movement" that I have. It's pretty much the objective to make white men feel like they're the center of the universes problems.

[–]Prescript2 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

The meaning of the words defines the focus of the debate. Which is not on black people when you shame white people. It is not just semantic.

Your example is a good example of this.

[–]Lamparita 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I completely agree. Not many people see that the question leads the discussion. So much has been done with the wrong premises, it's embarrasing. Also, people are way too eager to jump on the wagon, just giving these movements more momentum without really thinking what is going on.

[–]Clockw0rk 24ポイント25ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ideas like these are the core underpinnings of Egalitarianism.

Good on you, dude. Spread the word, keep up the good work.

[–]newnameuser 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I hear that it has something to do with money and that's the real difference. This link can share what many white people who aren't wealthy may not be able to see.

http://jimbuie.blogs.com/journal/2007/11/50-examples-of-.html

[–]Justworkhere 26ポイント27ポイント  (2子コメント)

Wow, I've never heard it put that way. That makes a lot of sense.

[–]Anathos117 45ポイント46ポイント  (1子コメント)

I've never heard it put that way.

Probably because any time somebody says it they get bombarded with comments telling them that if someone else is disadvantaged you have an advantage and having an advantage is a privilege. Which is nonsense; a privilege is something extra you have, something special. Basic rights aren't privileges.

[–]jose_con_queso 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

a privilege is something extra you have, something special

In this case, the privilege is not that you have basic rights, it is that there is no systemic mechanism standing between you and those basic rights. The privilege is in not having to fight for the right to vote or the right to be married to the one you love. The privilege is the confidence that you can walk through a store and not be followed by security. The privilege is never having to adjust your way of speaking before people will listen to you.

Privilege is not a discussion of how people think every white person has money. It is a discussion that requires stepping out of your own skin for a moment to see things from a different perspective. Privilege is knowing you can avoid doing that by making the argument about semantics and have a majority agree with you.

[–]Sarioth 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

I agree with this and also think the term leads to many white people reflexively disagreeing with anything the person who brought it up says, particularly if they're white with a lower socioeconomic status.

Someone like that looks at white privilege and balks, because it doesn't fit with their life experience. Instead, point out to them instances of discrimination, and they can't really refute them because they haven't experienced it.

[–]EggoEggoEggo 28ポイント29ポイント  (0子コメント)

Especially since the story is usually "The last person who lectured me about my privilege went to Yale".

Fuck those rich assholes whose daddies paid $250,000 for their gender studies degree, just so they could lecture my broke ass about my "privilege".

[–]GatorDontPlayThatSht -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

The white privilege concept is reverse racism, anything geared around creating and highlighting differences between races is moving us backwards.

[–]mungalo9 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS REVERSE RACISM!

Please don't perpetuate this term. It is just racism. There is no reverse.

[–]captainthataway 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

Happy successful black people who never have been discriminated against do not exist. Even Michelle Obama has been called the president's "baby mama".

[–]Prescript2 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Please no ignorance.

[–]captainthataway 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I get it .... You're THAT guy.

[–]Prescript2 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[–]TuckerMcG 41ポイント42ポイント  (15子コメント)

I wish more people thought like you. This should be the top comment. Basic human dignities are not a privilege. They're not something that is given from one person to another, they're innately imbued upon all of us.

Society strips some people of those basic human dignities, yet preserves it for others. And the preservation of those basic human dignities is not a privilege, it's a right. Heterosexual couples weren't privileged that they could get married, it is simply that homosexuals were discriminated against when they were denied that right. Same goes for police brutality. Or job opportunity. Or any other social inequality we witness in the modern day.

We are making progress. And the whole discussion about privilege hinders that progress because it presumes that the basic human dignities that should be preserved for everyone are something that weren't earned - they were earned, simply by being born they were earned. The injustice is that they were stripped from some people, not that they were preserved for others. That preservation is justice, and everyone is entitled to it. Confounding a right for a privilege demeans that basic principle of every democratic society, and makes it harder for those who are denied protection of those rights to redeem what has been stripped from them.

[–]BroodjeAap 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I wish more people thought like you.

I think (hope?) that most people do though.
I mean, how many people do you know that wouldn't agree with what /u/Prescript2 said?

[–]killwhiteyy 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

it's not that they wouldn't agree with it. it's that they wouldn't have thought of "privilege" that way to begin with.

[–]VampiricCyclone 19ポイント20ポイント  (4子コメント)

The real problem is that we refer to "white privilege," and as a result, all of the proposed solutions to the problem are "punish all white people in an amount commensurate with their inherently privileged state" -- which solves no problems, and serves only to increase the amount of bitterness and discrimination in the world.

[–]-Themis- 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

I have never heard anyone suggest that the answer to white privilege is to "punish" white people. It's mostly to bring others up to the same standard. No one says "you know, the police kill a lot of innocent black people. Clearly the solution is to unnecessarily murder more whites."

[–]i_drah_zua 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think parent commenter meant something in the line of positive discrimination/affirmative action.

E.g. to make it harder for non-minorities to get chosen for a job with the same qualifications as someone from a minority.
It basically discriminates against non-minorities because of their status, but you know, it's ok, the majority is the not protected by law.

[–]rudster 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Look up "whitesplain" and "mansplain". Pretty much 100% of the time I've heard of "privilege" it's to express that some group doesn't have the right to their opinions. Also, 100% of the time the person using the word privilege is a person who's life so far has been a virtual paradise, applying it to someone they can't be sure didn't spend their entire life getting ass-raped in a third-world prison.

[–]standardbearer1492 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Black people kill more innocent black people than the police does. Maybe black people need to be held somewhat responsible for creating the kind of societies where murder is rampant and the police are constantly on edge. Or we could blame this "White Privilege" that magically keeps American blacks down but allows dirt-poor immigrants who don't speak English to set up businesses, prosper and send their kids to college.

[–]pokemon2012 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

There's a lot of shallow understanding of what "privilege" means in this thread, but this recent NYT piece on what privilege means I found both thoughtful and relevant here. It captures why the semantics do matter and how the word has become loaded for the wrong reasons. Sharing in case anyone is interested. www.nytimes.com/2015/07/19/magazine/how-privilege-became-a-provocation.html

[–]Prescript2 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

People conflate lack of knowledge with being "blinded" by not being discriminating against. You're not blind and you it's silly for people to say white people don't know about racism. Education is the key, not self reflection.

[–]Rswany 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Nothing wrong with trying to present knowledge from a relatable perspective.

In fact that's one of the most basic teaching tools.

[–]Prescript2 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes you are very right but the perspective (privilege belief) is an inverse of discrimination that hides that discrimination and so is a complete failure to educate about that discrimination.

[–]Rswany 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Eh, you can't properly talk about privilege without mentioning discrimination.

The people are so focused on the "you are white and you should feel bad!" are just a loud angry minority.

Which is unfortunate because it detracts from the actual legitimate significance that discussions of privilege can have.

The idea of structured privilege is all about different perspectives and the different discrimination that exist between perspectives.

[–]-Themis- 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

No such thing as white privilege.

You rename "white privilege" the baseline, and instead call it "non-white disadvantage/discrimination." How does that change the statement in a useful way?

Is "you have an advantage" different from "he has a disadvantage" in a material way? Because i don't see that difference.

[–]laowai_shuo_shenme 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, it is significantly different. If I have an advantage, then the implication is that I don't deserve what I have. Maybe it was given to me, or I didn't have to work as hard as I should have to get it. You're saying that I have too much, rather than that other people have too little.

That's where you create opposition for yourself. Plenty of white people work hard for little reward too, and when you try to tell them how easy they have it and how they don't deserve what little they have then their completely understandable response is likely to be "fuck you."

[–]Prescript2 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Please consider the focus of the debate when you use these words and see what will best help black people.

The aim is to educate, and asking white people to selfreflect doesn't teach the reality of black people, it hides it.

[–]screenlicker 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

First of all, I watched that video... incredible. I wish I'd seen this version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjOkvxMHapo instead - without the music - but still. Had no idea Chaplin ever did that. Beautiful.

every privilege is hiding its inverse discrimination

Completely agreed.

These people will not do anything that will disrupt their lives to help black people and so resort to disarming these problems by making it about themselves and punishing themselves.

Don't know who "these people" are specifically, but think you are probably meaning "people who claim white privilege does not exist" and including Bill Burr into that group. If so, then maybe the first part is right, but including Burr into that group is a mistake, IMO. Burr's main point in that video, to me, was "everybody has issues", full stop. Many of the white people in America are poor, and without health insurance. I this Killer Mike has a great line in his song, "That's Life":

The comment Kanye made was damn near right

But Bush hate poor people

Be 'em black or white

( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt9X1gvz728 )

Bill Burr is a comedian and a human being and probably sometimes oversimplifies things, like we all do. I don't feel like he did that in this case. He was saying, "life's fucking hard for everybody" and it really is, IMO.

[–]1371CE 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

These people will not do anything that will disrupt their lives to help black people and so resort to disarming these problems by making it about themselves and punishing themselves.

I think he meant people who claim white privilege is an actual thing we should be worried about so they don't have to think or act.

[–]aoeu4321 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't know who "these people" are specifically, but think you are probably meaning "people who claim white privilege does not exist" and including Bill Burr into that group.

I think the idea there was that people bemoan "privileges" so they can feel better about the fact that they don't do anything to help the disadvantaged.

[–]fencerman 54ポイント55ポイント  (51子コメント)

Every white privelege is simply an inverse of a disadvantage experienced by another race. Not being discriminated against is not a privilege, its the zero line that everyone deserves.

Why does that semantic game matter? If you say "white privilege doesn't exist, it's just that everyone else faces discrimination that white people don't have to deal with", that's not any kind of meaningful difference at all. Okay, call it "white non-discrimination", it's the same thing.

[–]Anathos117 65ポイント66ポイント  (7子コメント)

Why does that semantic game matter?

Because what words we use words has an impact on how we think and what actions we take and how other people respond to us. "White privilege" presents the issue in an inherently combative way. It transforms an issue that most people agree with ("many minorities, particularly black people, face a number of socioeconomic disadvantages") into an us-vs-them issue ("white people need to have less so black people can have more"). And that creates opposition to progress where none used to exist.

[–]Prescript2 95ポイント96ポイント  (31子コメント)

I never said white people dont have to deal with discrimination and what you call privilege I called a right for all that is the normal. This is what I mean by the zero line. Discrimination should be in the negative but when you say basic rights are privileges you normalize discrimination.

[–]stillclub -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

But it's a right that only white people seem to get?

[–]HeyYouDontKnowMe 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

There is a meaningful difference. One implies that white people are all actively propping up the status quo. The other does not.

[–]narcoleptita 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why does that semantic game matter?

Because it implicates the 'privileged' in the crime of oppression. You can treat others equitably but you're still guilty because you're an indirect benefactor of oppression (at least under this line of thinking.)

[–]Master119 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because words have power. Words change how you think. If you say white privilege, the connotation is that whites are lucky and don't deserve it. If you say discrimination of non-whites, it becomes more clear that the issue is discrimination.

[–]PSGWSP 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why does that semantic game matter?

Because it puts white people on the defense (they feel blamed) and thereby doesn't help solve the problem.

[–]TheCodexx 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is there seriously people outside of specific forums who actually intentionally discriminate, though? Who say, "yeah they're [ethnicity], screw them!"? Because it seems like I've met maybe one or two in real life. But these people never get yelled at. Instead, random schmucks on the street get yelled at for being lower-middle-class and being "fortunate" enough to go to a crappy suburban public school instead of a slightly crappier inner-city public school.

Let's face it, this isn't a racial issue and anyone who tries to make it one is avoiding the real issue. Some people do not have the economic means to afford living and afford the free time needed to be involved in their child's education, and that impacts and perpetuates a cycle. The solution is to recognize it as such and look for a way out, not to rant that someone else is richer than you. There will never be a scenario where every single person is born on the same page, but every single person has opportunities to make something of themselves. And sometimes random chance, or luck, factors heavily into it.

[–]signsandsimulacra 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

semantics matters because linguistics suggests that, in some way, language influences thought. behaviors and systems and actions don't change unless the precondition exists in the mind

[–]xcerj61 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

The progressive movement abuses semantics cleverly. They are inventing flawed concepts like privilege to shift the issue and basically "white shame" people, and redefine words like rape to associate notions disapproved by them with crimes or redefine racism to deny the privileged groups any questioning of the social justice.

[–]signsandsimulacra -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well I mean the term privilege still has a place, but is only relative to discriminated peoples.

I also wouldn't say that the progressive movement, whatever that is, has a monopoly on rhetoric. Certain mediated uses of the buzz terms you're talking about can be necessary in conversation. The issue is the ways in which we appropriate these terms to have all inclusive definitions until they reach a point of universality, of empty sinlgnificance. I don't think the success of misappropriated use can be attributed to people's with agendas, rather the insufficient and malleable ways in which people digest rhetoric

[–]Ben--Affleck 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You don't need a linguist to tell you there's some truth to the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis... behaviors are intimately tied to goals which are tied to beliefs which are tied to linguistic semantics.

The "beliefs have no impact on behavior" camp are just dishonest religious apologists. I can't believe anyone on Earth honestly can believe such a thing.

[–]orzof -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Black people are tall and Asian people are short because white people are average.

[–]antieverything 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Rights theory is awesome...for children and the uneducated. People who actually study this stuff, however, have moved on to models that actually describe reality as opposed to simply enumerating our aspirations.

[–]Prescript2 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

How does shaming white people educate about the reality of black people?

[–]antieverything 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It is only "shaming" because you choose to feel shamed instead of acknowledging that society is driven by structural elements much larger than us as individuals. When your basis is a simplistic fantasy land where injustice must necessarily be rooted in the horrific acts of iniquitous people as opposed to deep rooted social structures and historical trends, it is very easy to take offense at someone describing the world as it actually is.

[–]janschy[🍰] 9ポイント10ポイント  (5子コメント)

But your talk of white privilege and black disadvantage is just semantics. You're just calling the cup half empty instead of half full, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

And what do you mean by "they" or "these people?"

[–]stoopidquestions 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Isn't it all spin? Words hold implications; global warming vs. climate change, or pro-life vs. anti-choice. Saying being treated fairly is a privilege I plies we expect less of the human race. Celebrities and the rich get to buy privilege; the way your average white-guy is treated is how every average person should be treated.

[–]Prescript2 22ポイント23ポイント  (2子コメント)

White privilege is a delibrate twisting of and hiding of black grievance and I untwisted it.

[–]DrHenryPym -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah, that's why the phrase is a misnomer. The "privilege" exists but not in the form people are thinking.

[–]tone_ 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

But "privilege" in this context only exists in the context of prejudice. That is what /u/Prescript2 is talking about

Not living in extreme poverty doesn't make one automatically wealthy, yet to a poor person, they may see you as such.

[–]Qapiojg 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

But your talk of white privilege and black disadvantage is just semantics. You're just calling the cup half empty instead of half full, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Your wrong. The implication changes between them. Privilege is a special advantage given to a group. Implying that basic human rights are a privilege makes them no longer basic human rights. Rights and privileges are two separate things. It creates the dynamic that this is something that can or should be taken away.

Using this kind of logic, free speech isn't a right it's a privilege given to you by the government. They can take it away anytime they wish and you have no reason to be angry because it was simply a privilege you were afforded and not a basic human right. This creates a dynamic that restricts personal freedoms instead of extending them to those who should have them. We need more freedom, not less.

[–]Cassaroll168 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

The concept of white privilege or male privilege is not to make anyone feel guilty or make anyone feel they shouldn't strive for more. It's a way to try to show those who don't understand the discrimination that happens to blacks, to gays, to atheists, to any minority that is underrepresented in powerful institutions.

White privilege is a concept meant to illustrate to white people, who don't see racism around them and feel they aren't racist themselves, that they are seeing the world through a perspective that is skewed by their experience. They assume racism doesn't exist because they've never seen it themselves and that is their privilege. It takes the powerful foregoing their privilege and allying with those without it to make meaningful change. It took LBJ being willing to lose the south for a generation to implement the Civil Rights Act.

Everyone misconstrues the concept to mean "you're white, you should feel bad about that." It has nothing to do with that. Plenty of black people are privileged in their own ways, plenty of white people are not privileged in their own ways. It's just about checking people who see the world through their own experience rather than through the facts.

Take Sean Hannity. He talks about how when he gets pulled over by the cops, he shows them his gun that he has a permit to carry, and they have a polite conversation about his ticket. As a result, he can't understand why anyone hates or is afraid of police. His experience as a white male with major media power, influence and relative fame is good, so why wouldn't anyone's experience be good? That's his privilege speaking. Because he didn't experience it first hand, he assumes it isn't real.

It's really about shortening the empathy gap. Getting people to realize that their experience is based on a whole lot more than their own decisions. I think it's a good concept that deserves to be understood on its own terms, not co-opted and turned into some liberal hate-speech about how guilty every white person is.

Bill, no one is saying every white person owns a yacht. We're saying if you do own a yacht, consider that that's not everyone's experience of the world and why that might be. We're saying if you're white, consider that your experience might not be analogous to an hispanic person. That just because you succeeded through just hard work doesn't mean they could do the same.

Bill Burr is a simpleton who can't see the nuance in the concept, assumes it's attacking him, and attacks back.

[–]Prescript2 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

Are you surprised people dwell on themselves when you tell them to think about discrimination through their own lives?

From the people that disagree with me this is the true intent of privilege shaming. It is meant to educate but still fails to educate because the white people who are educated think about themselves instead of black people.

The solution is to abandon the concept of privilege and make greater attempts to make people face black people.

[–]Rswany 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Equating topics and problems in a way that is directly relatable to a person is a very common teaching tool and rhetorical tool in general.

[–]Prescript2 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

It is also inferior to directly teaching about the effects of racism.

[–]Rswany -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Talking about structured privelage is directly tied to racism.

[–]sistersunbeam 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The other thing that I often hear in an attempt to counter the concept of white privilege is the idea of wealthy black people being better off than poor white people; how can there be white privilege if that kind of thing exists?

But as you touched on, "privilege" is bigger than just white privilege. There's also socioeconomic privilege and male privilege and able-bodied privilege. So when all that comes into play, we end up with different people benefiting and suffering in a bunch of different ways. You can even benefit in one aspect of life and suffer in another. This hypothetical wealthy black family has socioeconomic privilege that a poor family (black or white) doesn't. But their equally wealthy white neighbor's still have the benefit of being white.

[–]kittiesntits 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with most of.your points but I think your attack on Bill Burr is condescending. If youve heard him speak at length about these topics hes not a simpleton. He was just responding to one angry guys generalization. I mean his wife is black I'd have a hard time believing he doesn't understand any nuance in the race debate. Plus he regularly admits where hes coming and would probably honestly agree that hes a "simpleton." I just really like Bill Burr, man.

[–]standardbearer1492 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Classic motte and bailey argument. Can't defend the concept of "White privilege" as it is routinely used just retreat to some more easily defended position.

[–]C7H5BiO4 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

I find the term white privilege to be stupid. To me, it eliminates any work I (or any white person) has ever done. My college degrees? Meaningless. The things I worked for? Worthless. The actions that have affected people? Pah! Don't make me laugh. To me, that makes it seem like I was just handed everything, and shit just happened to me that was positive. Like I never put in my blood, sweat, and tears, and I've never lost sleep over anxiety or was so sad I debated on offing myself. All of those experiences are meaningless/never happened and didn't make me into the productive person that I am today.

Fuck the term white privilege. It's used as an argument by the people who have the victim complex, where they're told throughout their whole life they're victims, so might as well act like one. We don't need to cut people down to a lower level, we need to stop the whole "everyone should feel sorry for us!" schtick and make use of what you were given. Being a victim does nothing but be a detriment to the society.

[–]-Themis- 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Wait what?

Do you mean that when someone says "hey people who are rich start with an advantage," it means that what Bill Gates accomplished is meaningless, because his father was a lawyer and he grew up with wealth? Because that's a really weird way of looking at the world.

[–]laowai_shuo_shenme 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not sure people think of it that overtly, but that's the implication. If you attribute a portion of someone's success to privilege, then you inherently devalue their effort. Sometimes this is justifiable. Paris Hilton would be nothing and no one without her name. Other times it's not. Not many people could do what Bill Gates did even with his starting point.

There's a lot of nuance between those points, but the vast majority of white people were not born into meaningful privilege that should diminish their personal efforts. So every time you tell them about their privilege, you shouldn't be surprised if they don't take well to the implication.

[–]Prescript2 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

It is sad to see people like you feel this way. Life is not a zero sum game. Saying you can't be have problems because some people are worse off is like saying you can't be happy because someone out there is happier.

[–]exowolfen -5ポイント-4ポイント  (3子コメント)

The argument about white privilege isn't that you didn't earn/make your way, or that you didn't sweat and bleed for it, it is that in the aggregate, when controlling for other factors, women and many minority groups have a harder time securing the same economic and social status as the average white male.

This means, on average, disadvantaged minorities have to work harder or longer to enjoy the same lifestyle as the average white male in the U.S.

White privilege as a concept simply means this. It doesn't devalue your labor or experiences- it is the idea that somebody with the same exact resume as you may not be considered for hire when you would be because your name is John and his is Jamal (This is a vast oversimplification of things, but there are plenty of studies using a variety of situations, such as jury duty, an interaction at an auto mechanic's , etc.).

You can acquire all the advantages and privileges as a white male, it is just harder for many minorities. One thing that is nearly impossible to shake, however, might be your skin tone if you look phenotypically non-white. This comes with any number of cultural assumptions about what people of that group are like. This is a status people ascribe to you and it, as well as the consequences, follows many people their entire lives.

[–]C7H5BiO4 -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

I've posted this link in a comment before, but I feel like it hits the nail on the head.

You stated that given situations shown that white privilege is a thing that exists, like jury duty and interactions with mechanics. I feel like sometimes some interactions occur because of the preconceived notions some people have against a group of people. This isn't inherently privileged, as given controlled environments and removing any sort of preconceived notions can lead to the same outcome.

Given a person who "suffered" from a "disadvantaged" group can be met with someone from the same group who did make it. Environmental factors can easily play into someone who is disadvantaged. Being disadvantaged isn't necessarily one group's struggle, it's something that every group happens to suffer from. It just so happens that each group is disadvantaged in a different way. Like the article I linked above states, suffering isn't quantifiable. Saying that my suffering is better than someone else's suffering because of my skin color isn't a correct line of thinking to traverse down. We cannot fathom each other's struggle, so it's stupid to say that one group is inherently "privileged."

[–]exowolfen 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

1st paragraph: the arguments and vitriol the rabid 'liberal' spewed in that letter are largely separate from the scientific understanding of white privilege. White privilege is a nuanced idea. It is not inherently insipid to have privileged(though the conditions which have led to this privilege often are, such as racialized slavery).

2nd paragraph: this is exactly what is meant by privilege. Part of that privilege is (usually) not having stereotypes or cultural scripts that apply to you in a way that negatively impacts your day to day life. We largely agree here.

3rd: we know for a fact that many quality of life indicators for disadvantaged minorities in the U.S. are quantifiably and significantly lower, on average, when compared to white men or white women. The patterns are not black and white for all groups, certainly, and many minorities do well for themselves. You are right- every group has its own individual struggles, not every member of every group feels they represent that group, nor do we fully understand the struggles of people who lead different lives. Additionally, some groups adopt habits which may negatively impact their lives. However, what is stupid, and irresponsible, is to ignore what we do know! We know there is disparity in indicators which reliably show quality of life (which is linked to enjoyment/happiness) in situations where ,all things considered , the indicators should not differ by a statistically different amount. Suffering is hard to quantify, but overall satisfaction with life is not (sort of). The term white privilege is used to describe a complex set of interactions which pervade all of society, and which are thought to exist due to the evidence-- racial (and etc.) disparity.

[–]sistersunbeam 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I feel like sometimes some interactions occur because of the preconceived notions some people have against a group of people.

That is privilege. As a white person, the preconceived notions people have about me are likely to be much less harmful than the preconceived notions people might have about my black friends.

This isn't inherently privileged, as given controlled environments and removing any sort of preconceived notions can lead to the same outcome.

I don't follow. You said in the previous sentence that these things happen because of preconceived notions, but now you say if we remove preconceived notions the same thing can happen. How so? Could you elaborate a bit?

Given a person who "suffered" from a "disadvantaged" group can be met with someone from the same group who did make it. Environmental factors can easily play into someone who is disadvantaged.

Yes, but this doesn't negate the idea of privilege. Privilege theory doesn't say that everyone from disadvantaged group B will have x outcome. It's more about the kind of treatment they'll likely receive in the world -- some people get lucky and have less or manage to overcome.

Being disadvantaged isn't necessarily one group's struggle, it's something that every group happens to suffer from.

Absolutely. Privilege theory actually addresses this. There are lots of different ways people can be privileged and disadvantaged; socioeconomic privilege, racial privilege, able-bodied privilege, cis-gendered privilege. The idea is that most people have some privileges and some disadvantages. It's not about tallying it all up and seeing who "wins", that's super screwed up. It's about acknowledging that as, say, a white person, we don't have to face racism the same way our non-white friends do. Or asking our friends to acknowledge that we came from a different socioeconomic group than they did, so we couldn't accept non-paying internships in the summer and finding a job has been a bit harder as a result.

I think privilege theory has a lot to offer us, but I don't like the way it's generally talked about. I don't like that it's too often set up as a competition -- who is the most oppressed -- or is sometimes used to minimize people's suffering. I also hate when people just throw out, "check your privilege" because that shuts down any dialogue about whatever it was that was actually hurtful.

[–]lagrandenada 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

So my question is, would you consider having loving parents as a right or a privilege? What about access to a good education? I really am intrigued by what you've said here, and am now simply being inquisitive.

[–]Prescript2 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Having loving parents is certainly a basic right that I was unfortunately denied and education too should be for all. Please imagine a graph. The discrimination should be in the negative, these rights should be on the zero line. Say they are privileges and see how you raise up discrimination!

[–]lagrandenada -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

We are talking in two threads, and my most recent post to you should maybe be where we continue this conversation.

[–]corranhorn85 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is the assumption that white people have loving parents?

[–]TotesMessenger 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

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[–]Mobilebutts 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

I really hate the bestof sub.

[–]sweeptheleg55 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Awesome thoughtfull response.

I'm gonna be a dick and say as a white man I kinda wish I did have a group I belonged to that would help form my identity. We're just a group of people with no inherent struggle. But I think there is commraddery among people who are struggling together. I envy that a lot. All I have is a group of bros I can join? No thanks. It's weird, but I really envy the close knit groups I see a lot of minorities have. I'm dating a Philipino girl and the automatic friends she can make when she bumps into another Philipino is really cool. It's like a lot of barriers for communication and connection aren't there. As a white guy all I see are walls and defense mechanisms. The onus seems to be much more on me to be reaching out.

[–]Batsignal_on_mars 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I prefer to call it 'luck' honestly.

[–]TemptThePuffin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Before I am punished for telling the truth I would like to point out I am a gay black man.

You want truth? REALLY?

Well here's truth: those shoes really do NOT go with that belt.

 

Edit: Sorry, man. I had a bad day. I shouldn't have taken it out on you.

[–]fauxRealzy 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow, I wish I could upvote this forever.

[–]Harvey_BirdmanESQ -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thank you. hug Truly, from the bottom of my heart, thank you.

[–]Prescript2 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just want less strife in my life at this point. Be happy.

[–]FeelWhatIFeel -4ポイント-3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Black privilege is being able to make a post like this and not get down-voted but lauded for your intelligence. A white man making the same exact post would be called a racist, bigot, etc. I'm sure you got bonus points for being gay too.

That's why I don't understand these people when they talk about "white privilege." It's become an excuse to hate someone solely based on the color of their skin.

[–]Prescript2 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Racism is evolving!

[–]FeelWhatIFeel -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mission accomplished I guess.

[–]BuffKunkka -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Gay black man? At least you still have a penis, shitlord!

If you want to go ham on being discriminated against you should have said you were gay black woman who is also Jewish and living in some shitty area.

[–]PixyFreakingStix -5ポイント-4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Not being discriminated against is not a privilege, its the zero line that everyone deserves.

But because not everybody gets it, it's a privilege of those that don't. That's what privilege means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privilege_(social_inequality)

[–]Prescript2 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Ah so the only privilege is not knowing you're privileged? You have seen how people are hurt by this, for just having what everyone should have? for what should be a basic right for all? It's the people who feel they are educating who are the ones unable to face problems directly by hiding discrimination by inverting it to be about white people.

Wasting time by not just showing the true problem.

[–]PixyFreakingStix 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Ah so the only privilege is not knowing you're privileged?

What? No, privileged people tend to not realize they're privileged. That's not a privilege in and of itself (I think).

You have seen how people are hurt by this, for just having what everyone should have? for what should be a basic right for all?

Uh... I really don't know what you're getting at, or how to answer these questions.

Wasting time by not just showing the true problem.

That doesn't mean that recognizing privilege is a bad thing.

But I legitimately don't really understand what you just said, and frankly, it reads like English is your second language, which is fine if it's the case, but I don't get what you're saying.

[–]Prescript2 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

"No, privileged people tend to not realize they're privileged."

So your answer is to get them to reflect on themselves changing the focus to white people and robbing the attention from real issues.

Recognizing privilege is wrong and unnecessary. Examing yourself to recognize others is self defeating, why not just teach about others? Why shame?

[–]PixyFreakingStix 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So your answer is to get them to reflect on themselves

I have not yet provided an answer.

changing the focus to white people and robbing the attention from real issues.

Why, exactly, do you think there can be only one focus? I'm personally capable of focusing on more than one thing; being aware of and appreciating my own forms of privilege while simultaneously working toward learning about and helping others.

You find this to be challenging?

Recognizing privilege is wrong and unnecessary

How is it wrong?

Examing yourself to recognize others is self defeating

I don't understand what this means.

why not just teach about others

Teach about others in what capacity? What are you talking about?

Why shame?

And who said anything about shame?

[–]Straatnieuws -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's also an incredibly American centric way to look at the world. White privelege suggests that this theory holds true everywhere in the world which is simply not true. There's no such thing as white privelege.

It's good to be a part of the majority though I think majority privilege would be a far more apt description.

[–]bbbeans -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are happy and successful black people who haven't been discriminated against privileged? (They exist.)

I am sorry but this statement is a bit absurd. Not sure on what grounds you can speak on literally every aspect of the life of someone you have never met before.

The fact that you are gay and black makes no difference as to whether or not the content of your words are the truth.

[–]standardbearer1492 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not being discriminated against is not a privilege, its the zero line that everyone deserves.

Then you were born into the wrong species. Discriminating is crucial to everything we do as a society and as individuals. Everyone discriminates and is discriminated constantly on any number of grounds.

[–]Dwight--Schrute -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

His my boyfriend...

I'm a Catholic whore, currently enjoying congress out of wedlock with my black Jewish boyfriend who works at a military abortion clinic. Hail Satan, and have a lovely afternoon madam.

I know guys, this doesn't make sense. But I've got a ton of upvotes so you can downvote me if that will make you happy.

[–]Doub1eVision -5ポイント-4ポイント  (1子コメント)

That is a pointless distinction to make, frankly.

[–]Prescript2 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Pointless? If we stopped wasting time trying to educate white people by shaming them for what they have we could use that time to help black people get the same as they deserve.

Too much effort?