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It's looking like the new CEO wants to get rid of shadowbanning non-spammers. Thoughts? (self.modclub)

GayGiles/r/Incest が 投稿

His comment (image) - link to said comment.

I know that I personally use shadowbanning via automoderator quite leniently as a way to stop people that are obviously trolls or have been repeatedly causing unnecessary work/drama for the mods. So it's a bit of a shock for me that the CEO is against this kind of thing when it's clearly such a useful tool.

Anyway, I just wanted to see what the general reaction was to this.

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[–]spez[A] 95ポイント96ポイント  (133子コメント)

I'm not even talking about modtools in that quote. It's about the perception of reddit the company banning users, which I don't want us (the company) doing.

Everyone, let me be clear. My intention is to make your jobs easier. I'm not going to come in and remove a bunch of features you depend on, but rather to add more tools so clumsy things like shadowbanning aren't necessary. This is going to require some tech cleverness, but I know we can do it because I've done stuff like this plenty of times before.

I have a lot of ideas. We'll try them out. If things improve, we proceed, if they do not, we try something else. My goal is for you all to spend way less time doing mundane things like tracking down trolls, removing spam, arguing with idiots, etc.

My other goal is to remove some of the mystery from how communities are managed from the reader's perspective. Seeing people cry "censorship" every time a spammer is caught doesn't do anyone any favors.

(I'm x-posting this in the other mod subreddits)

edit: added the first sentence.

[–]Ivashkin 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

I kinda agree, while it is useful to use automod to "shadowban" people on subs it is heavily overused/abused by mods simply because it is an easy way to get rid of people that way. If mod tools made it easier to deal with alts and ban evaders I would be happy to see it removed.

[–]ProtoDong/r/technology 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

Great to see you have your finger on the pulse. In fact, it's an amazing breath of fresh air. And for the record, I absolutely agree with you. Shadowbanning regular users just reeks of "secret police" style abuse.

I think that if someone is sufficiently destructive that there is no way to mitigate the situation, perhaps use an IP ban with a standard appeal procedure.

[–]anutensil 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's about the perception of reddit the company banning users, which I don't want us (the company) doing.

God, but that sounds refreshing.

[–]BritishLAD_ 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

You have probably been told this a lot today but your constant interaction with people on Reddit is awesome. Bi-monthly AMA's would absolutely rock. Makes stuff feel a tad more.. personal?

[–]imares 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Spammers deserve the bans. Trolls though? How do you know they're trolling, and if so, wouldn't the subs just ban them? If it gets serious and multiple people report it over a short period of time, then sure. I just think shadow banning is a serious fuckin' deal is all, and shouldn't be used "quite leniently"

[–]splattypus/r/outoftheloop 15ポイント16ポイント  (89子コメント)

My other goal is to remove some of the mystery from how communities are managed from the reader's perspective. Seeing people cry "censorship" every time a spammer is caught doesn't do anyone any favors.

Go on.....

I gotta be honest with you though, the second there becomes a target my head just because I'm upholding the clearly-defined rules of my subreddit, I'm done modding. I don't need that kind of shit, so I really hope what you've got in mind can account for petty and pissed off users with nothing but contempt for mods and too much time on their hands.

[–]lolzergrush 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

so I really hope what you've got in mind can account for petty and pissed off users with nothing but contempt for mods and too much time on their hands.

I think the "us vs them" mentality is where your trouble starts. There are plenty of users out there who consider mods to be "petty" people "with too much time on their hands". I think we've all seen our fair share of instances where mods lack the maturity to handle a situation, so sometimes that frustration is warranted. Then again, there are certainly users that make things difficult for the communities (which is why mods exist).

Mods are in an inherent power relationship with users, and right now have the ability to exercise that power unilaterally without being accountable. More transparency would lessen the adversarial nature of that relationship, not make it worse.

[–]spez 21ポイント22ポイント  (85子コメント)

I'd like to hear more about this. Seems to be a recurring theme today-- people receiving threats.

[–]love_the_heat/r/babyelephantgifs 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not everyone respects the human. Serial rule breakers can also be vicious. If mod logs are public, that data can be used to show anything once incorrect context accompanies it. Grudges are held, and anything from negative comments, to SRS posts ( witch hunting), to doxxing can occur

[–]PuppiesbyPound/r/leagueoflegends 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

http://imgur.com/mvXiNo9

Transcript of image:

Marisa, I'm speaking to you, the woman who exists in actual life. Who is breathing now.

Get raped by someone you trust Marisa. Get used for your pussy and held down and have the hole between your legs invaded by a "friend" who only wanted one thing.

I hope you get hurt Marisa, if I was with you right now, I'd get a huge hardon from frightening you. PM me your phone number if you want to be touched on public transportation by a stranger.

http://imgur.com/IqNjJmV

Transcript:

Dude, you're a Nazi. You can't tell me what to do. Fuck off bitch. I plea the 1st amendment. You're going to end up dead in September anyway. Have fun fag. BTW, you can't stop me from speaking on Reddit. I'll just make a new account. If you IP ban me then I'll just change my IP. I'd also be careful about who you threaten over the internet. You're lucky I'm nice otherwise I'd have your ass DOX'ed. Let this be your warning by trying to violate my Constitution rights.

[–]TheCid 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

A mod of /r/tf2 had an accusation of child pornography sent to his university's police (thanks to his IRC connection from on campus uniquely identifying him) several years ago, from a user we banned at the time.

This is nothing new.

[–]AnOldHope/r/askhistorians 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

Here's my most memorable.

[–]kjhatch/r/gameofthrones 18ポイント19ポイント  (6子コメント)

It's too common, and habitual trolls will stalk your account for months. I know many users complain about overzealous mods, and I personally know some that are problems, but from my experience there are far more bad users that need to be managed.

When a stalker likes to follow you around to any sub you post in, it discourages mods from posting with their main accounts. Mods should not have to have anonymous alts and pose as non-mod users in order to participate on Reddit. IMO the Admins should step in and deal with bad users like that. Some trolls are "real users" too. Making some good posts shouldn't grant an open license to attack other users. If anything the Admins have been very conservative with shadowbans, because trolls are usually allowed to post threats and continue harassment without penalty.

I mod more than a few large, established subs, and I've put years of effort into building them. If more mod transparency and fewer shadowbans means it gets easier for bad people to harass me I'm likely to quit Reddit. I already donate an excessive amount of time here (including UI work requested by Admins), and I have no interest in spending more time dealing with harassment/threats/etc.

[–]ani625WTF 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

The harassment on reddit is absolutely tiresome. Some idiots with too much time on their hands can go crazy without much consequences.

[–]starryeyedsky 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some idiots with too much time on their hands can go crazy without much consequences.

There is one guy I've seen who created a hate sub dedicated to one user he hates. That guy posts in his sub at least once a day spouting hate towards this user. Each one of his accounts gets shadowbanned by the admins eventually, but he just mods another alt so that alt can approve the shadowbanned comments of all his other alts.

Guy is obsessed and has way too much time on his hands. He's been posting at least once per day in that sub, often twice a day, for 8-10 months now. This is the sort of non-spammer that would be allowed to keep posting hate all over the place (rather than just in his hate sub) if the admins only shadowban spammers.

And with users like this, a regular ban on a sub where they know about it doesn't work. Same guy was banned at least 5-10 times on different alts and each time said he would come back. Sometimes he would wait a month, but he always would create another alt eventually and then start his hate campaign again. How do I know it was the same guy? Same language used to hate on one random user. Like I said, guy is obsessed.

[–]MostlyAnnoying -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The harassment on reddit is absolutely tiresome. Some idiots mods with too much time on their hands can go crazy without much consequences.

[–]MostlyAnnoying -4ポイント-3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Mods should not have to have anonymous alts and pose as non-mod users in order to participate on Reddit

AND NEITHER SHOULD REGULAR USERS!!

Here's the deal folks - limit the number of subs a mod can moderate to the number they founded + 1. Problem solved. Get the community back, make the downvote button meaningful again and quit fucking banning people because you're on a power trip - especially in subs where you don't, and never have contributed!! The moderator on reddit has been given too much power. Example: Reddit fires someone, reddit goes nuts, closes down subs, etc. with no information - I'm tired of getting fucking banned when I didn't break a rule.. just because moderators like /u/noeatnosleep think they need to moderate 58 fucking subs.

[–]kjhatch/r/gameofthrones 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The discussion is not really about controlling bad mods. It's about what should be done with problem users in general. The side topic of more mod transparency is in how it relates to users stalking mods.

limit the number of subs a mod can moderate to the number they founded + 1

I'd like to see a limit to the number of subs a single mod can manage, but "number they founded + 1" doesn't work. Most large subs have one or more private subreddits used for mod communication. Subreddit Networks also have separate mod subs. Being the mod of one sub can mean invites to mod multiple others connected to it. I'm also a Reddit developer. I have over a dozen subs where I'm set as mod that are used just for testing for different subs. Until Reddit has systems to replace the way subs are used for communication and testing, there will always been a need for some additional moderation "slots." Your idea also doesn't solve the problem of squatter mods who make a point to register new subs just to collect them.

The moderator on reddit has been given too much power.

You sound like you have no mod experience. Have you tried to assist with the moderation of an established community? Try moderating one over 20K for a while, and I think you'll see moderators are pretty limited.

[–]MostlyAnnoying 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I respectfully disagree.

Your points,of view are all jaded by what is failing, and not what is, or could be working. Yes, I have been a mod - only 10k subscribers, but yes.

We've lost the power of the down vote button - more of that, and less mods is the key.

Yes there are challenges. The challenges require a fresh perspective to address them. More of what is broken is not the answer. More tools, for the wrong people is not the answer. Less of those very people is a start.

Empower the down vote button - empower 'report as spam' - don't make technical excuses to solve difficult engineering problems, this ain't high school. Reddit could benefit from some actual, real-life, experienced engineers that understand business problems and are driven to solve them by first giving them the respect they demand. The tinkering culture works..... Up to the point where there's no turning back. We may be there already.

[–]heatheranne/r/britishproblems 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

We can collect the threats we receive if this would help you. https://www.reddit.com/r/modtalk/comments/3d07li/uspez_wishes_to_know_more_about_the_threats_mods/

[–]TheEnigmaBlade/r/leagueoflegends 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Here's album I used to maintain regularly:

http://imgur.com/a/CkPTn

In the instances of shadowbans, the shadowban was used against users continuously making new accounts to spam our modmail with death threats and abuse.

[–]Xet 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I mean, it kind of comes with the territory of being a mod. To use that old cliche... It's the internet. If you moderate a subreddit with hundreds of thousands, potentially millions of users, there are bound to be a few who get pissed off enough to send you threatening messages.

Doesn't make it ok, but at the same time, what can you really do about it?

[–]ani625WTF 15ポイント16ポイント  (2子コメント)

https://www.reddit.com/r/undelete/comments/3cx0na/meta_a_certain_unnamed_mod_of_an_unnamed_news/

Wichhunting is actively allowed in subs like those. Hell they even mention my username, and users happily brigaded my profile. This is not the first time it's happening too.

[–]LuckyBdx4 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

He got a 5 day admin ban for using multiple alts to upvote and downvote.

Which admins take seriously. LMAO

Slow Clap for the admins...

[–]GatorDontPlayThatSht 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You guys are terrible liars. You don't like undelete because bad mods get called out there, and it's the only place to do so.

[–]chelsey-dagger 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Even in relatively small subs it can be a big problem.

[–]IAmAnAnonymousCoward/r/worldpolitics 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd like to hear more about this. Seems to be a recurring theme today-- people receiving threats.

Reddit has a fundamental conflict. On one side there's the users who want to post their content and want it to be judged by their peers. On the other side there's the mods who often have a clear vision of what they want their subreddits to look like and are willing to remove any amount of content to get there.

I put my faith in you that you can make the necessary design changes to solve this conflict.

[–]razorsheldon/r/UpliftingNews 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

Spend two seconds in our shoes and the mystery will be solved. Until then, please hold off on you broad sweeping changes.

[–]GatorDontPlayThatSht -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why mod then, you obviously can't handle it...

[–]EatSleepJeep 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you change the lowercase L in my username to an uppercase I, you can impersonate me and make it sound like I'm a criminal.

https://www.reddit.com/user/EatSieepJeep/

https://www.reddit.com/r/sports/comments/l07bo/im_reddit_mod_eatsleepjeep_and_i_enjoy_having_sex/

https://www.reddit.com/r/environment/comments/l0fmx/exxon_mobil_corp_says_it_shouldnt_be_forced_to/c2osczk?context=3

He has 4 or 5 of these accounts plus an outside blog where he continues his harassment.

[–]splattypus/r/outoftheloop 5ポイント6ポイント  (48子コメント)

I mean, surely you saw and heard about some of the ugliness with Ms. Pao. And hell, if I had a dollar for every time I was threatened with some action while I was modding any of the subs in the past (particularly the defaults and other high-traffic subs. If I didn't get one daily in /r/askreddit it was a surprise)....Well, I'd at least have a nicer computer to reddit with. By all means, pop in on some modmail convos from subs around reddit. You'll see.

Now I didn't take too many of the credibly, the anonymity provided by reddit currently provides me as much defense as it would help anyone with malicious intent offensively. Should any of that part change, though, problems could arise.

I have no idea what you've got in mind. There have been talks of making mod logs public, which I would discourage. Make it optional at least. Dilute it down to the very basics. My argument is always that the business is between the user and the mod, and not anybody else in the community. Putting mods entirely at the mercy of the pressures of the community will not end well. With that said, the community should be able to trust their mods, so I agree that some measure needs to be taken to ensure mod accountability. Exactly what that measure is is still debatable.

One suggestion I would have that may alleviate the flak individual mods receive for their actions, is to have a 'distinguished' mod comment disassociated from the users account. Have some function where hitting that 'distinguish' button turns the removal reason 'from /u/splattypus' to 'from /u/outoftheloop_moderator', without making me or the rest of the mod team go through the hassles of having separate accounts from modding.

Anyways, you have as much experience in this as I do, and more familiarity with the technical workings of it all. I'm curious to see what you have in mind. I just hope you'll consider that mods are routinely the focus of harassment and threats even when there's been no wrongdoing. The community loves their witch hunts, and moderators with their tiny amount of authority over the community are prime targets.

[–]seanhead -4ポイント-3ポイント  (47子コメント)

I 100% disagree. Modlogs should be forced public, and bad mods should be kickable by vote.

[–]Bardfinn 20ポイント21ポイント  (27子コメント)

If you make mods removable by vote, 4chan will dismantle Reddit overnight.

[–]GatorDontPlayThatSht 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Bullshit, there are ways to conduct votes ecurely on the site, I mean if one shit sjw survey is good enough for the admins to implement rule changes then I'm sure they can come up with a competent moderator voting system. On another note you guys are terrified to lose your power and it's amazing.

[–]splattypus/r/outoftheloop 26ポイント27ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're welcome to run yours as transparently as you like. Encouraged even. In some cases it's just not feasible or practical.

Let me put it like this, back in my hayday modding the defaults, I'd do tens of thousands of mod actions a month. All of them were open to moderator review at any time if another mod was so inclined. Most of them were run of the mill, tedious, approve reports/remove flagrant rule violations/etc. But do you really think anyone in the community would have been bothered to actually look at the individual actions? Or do you think they'd just say 'Well look at all those actions, he must just be going nuts and removing shit on a whim!'? My own experience has led me to believe just that.

Users were encouraged to send a modmail any time they needed clarification for a removal, and did our very damnedest to provide that reason clearly and quickly.

Maybe you could make removing a post or comment require a removal reason. It would be tedious as shit and annoying as hell, but I suppose it would be fair. But then you're going to waste a lot of mods' time arguing with users over why calling someone a 'fag' in the sub is inappropriate and worthy of removal. And the bigger the sub, the bigger the mod team, the more mod actions, the more time spent arguing about them. Seems like a waste of time to me, personally.

You can't expect a mod team to operate effecitvely under that kind of scruitiny though. And hell, the rules are posted in the sidebar, and usually on the submit page, and usually in the wiki. I agree that it sucks to have to your post removed, but the onus is on the user to follow the rules in order to participate in the sub.

And I don't know where this notion came that every single mod action is of the greatest important, that every one needs to be inspected and verified as 'worthy'? The vast majority of mod actions are tedious and mind-numbingly boring and redundant. For your average mod who has even a modicum of professionalism and sense of responsibility, controversy will hardly ever arise. And when it does, it's with someone being illogical and unreasonable. Forcing mods to exhibit that level of disclosure is just going to waste their time dealing with more of those unreasonable poeple over every single issue and nonissue alike, they'll never have time to actually moderate their sub.

Speaking of which, is it not still their sub? Where's the threshold? What if I start using /r/splattypus to log various posts and tibits from around the web as I happen across them, as sort of journal if you will. And suppose I leave it open to subscribers because hey, maybe some of them have the same tastes as I do and would appreciate it. At what point does any of the subscribers have the authority to influence how I run my sub?

Whether it's a private sub or a single-modded public sub, or even a default that's been around for 10 years. The first mod elects mods to uphold his/her standards of running the sub. And they, in turn, bring on more mods who fit their ideals and principles. And so by the transitive property, even 10 generations down the line, the very newest mod is still operating under the approval and endorsement of the very first mod. And as long as that top mod is active on reddit and actively modding in that sub, they are the only ones who should have any influence over how any other mod in that sub operates.

[–]DBCrumpets/r/tumblrinaction 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

You don't mod any large subreddits, if you did you would be aware just how impractical this is.

[–]seanhead -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

You are right, I don't. I am an admin on a large forum though (200k users, 15k regular active, around 7 years), and I can say with 100% truth that I have never banned a user that wasn't a spammer. I've also never deleted a comment. If we're in a position where we need to it will get edited with a basic summary of what was there before and a moderator note of why it was removed. Though most of the time the original comment is left with just the note as a warning.

[–]GatorDontPlayThatSht 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lmao, they downvote you because you're right.

[–]Arve -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

You are right, I don't. I am an admin on a large forum though (200k users, 15k regular active, around 7 years)

That's not particularly large by Reddit standards. Even a "small" subreddit like /r/headphones has 200 000 unique users/month.

[–]GatorDontPlayThatSht 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

This guy is totally correct, but the bad mods of reddit have joined together to try and stir up a bunch of shit to make their over zealous banning and censorship seem based on threats and harassment. What's weird is that if you look at any of the reported bans, or post removals, very rarely is threatening behavior the reason listed...

These mods are all full of shit, they're grasping at straws to keep their banning and removing powers.

[–]falsehood 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Why not allow subreddits to go either way and let the community decide?

[–]seanhead -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's reasonable. So long as the community can decide, not the moderator(s)

[–]picflute/r/leagueoflegends 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

Okay then, if you want mod logs to be public then for transparency sake you must reveal your upvote/downvote page to ensure you aren't brigading any mod comments.

[–]GatorDontPlayThatSht 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

IF WE LOSE OUR POWERS THEN WE WANT TO SEE USER INFO!

[–]seanhead -2ポイント-1ポイント  (6子コメント)

Why? if the mods are doing things that people dislike, shouldn't voting be a reasonable response?

[–]picflute/r/leagueoflegends -3ポイント-2ポイント  (5子コメント)

You want our actions to be public, and it's only fair to the site to make sure you're actually using the voting tool properly. Downvoting is defined as

If you think it does not contribute to the subreddit it is posted in or is off-topic in a particular community, downvote it

Not on what you dislike. Transparency isn't a one-way road. You must sacrifice that level of privacy if you want us to sacrifice ours.

[–]GatorDontPlayThatSht 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Admin, and mod transparency are necessary because those positions are in place to serve reddit's users. Reddit's users don't hold any responsibility to be transparent because we're the consumers of the site itself. Are you dense?

[–]seanhead -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Again, totally disagree. Mods should be held to a higher standard than normal users. You want to mod, you have to deal with the extra hoops.

[–]GatorDontPlayThatSht 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

They don't want to hear this but it's true, the mods are supposed to be servants of the community, not haters of the community with itchy removal and ban finger like they currently are.

[–]picflute/r/leagueoflegends -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sorry but those standards aren't linear. If the community wants transparency it'll have to be mutual.

[–]catcradle5 -5ポイント-4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think mod logs and deleted post content should be togglable, similar to 8chan. If a certain subreddit is becoming too ban-heavy, its subscribers can demand mod logs be enabled.

[–]seanhead -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This sounds reasonable to me.

[–]IrbyTremor 3ポイント4ポイント  (9子コメント)

I recieve threats nearly every single day. I ignore most of them but I just blocked someone an hour ago from /r/theredpill threatening to anally violate me with a foreign object because he was banned from a sub I run. A common theme.

I have been threatened with rape, doxxed several times by the same crew that is allowed to run buck wild on this site in their modmail jerks.

Racists from the enormous hate community on this site consistently brigade my subs, PM gore to me and my users, use alts to shitpost the same in my communities and get away with it.

These people already have an easy time using Reddit as their own personal sandbox and nu 4chan. I dont think shadowbanning needs to be gotten rid of. I think actual banning needs to be invented and utilized. Getting rid of shadowbanning will just make it worse.

[–]GatorDontPlayThatSht 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

You guys responding to /u/spez with false allegations targeting subs you don't like are hilarious.

[–]IrbyTremor 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

False allegations. Lmao

God, even your fucking username is embarassing

[–]GatorDontPlayThatSht -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

It's down to making fun of usernames now? And like I said before, it's so easy to make a bunch of alts and send yourself threats...

[–]IrbyTremor -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

This is amazing. Keep tying yourself in knots buddy. You're already struggling to rationalize something you havent even been shown.

Ive noticed Redpillers believe they can do no wrong but this takes the cake. Just arbitrarily deciding its false and running with it. Hokay.

[–]GatorDontPlayThatSht 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

I am not affiliated with red pillers nor do I prescribe to that mentality, nice smear attempt though!

[–]vvo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

i've been threatened with rape. i've been called every racist insult you can throw at an asian woman. the small subreddit i help mod is under constant brigade from various groups, some hate asians, some hate women, all of them seem to hate my sub. alexis promised to help us out, along with many other subs having similar, and worse, problems. can you provide an update for that?

it's not a sjw thing, or free speech thing. we all made these small subs to get away from dealing with this junk on reddit at large. we'd really like these groups to stop trying to overwhelm our subreddits. thank you for your response in advance.

[–]GatorDontPlayThatSht 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

They're not real, they send them to themselves or have buddies do it through IRC so that you guys will take them more seriously.

[–]GatorDontPlayThatSht -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I gotta be honest with you though, the second there becomes a target my head just because I'm upholding the clearly-defined rules of my subreddit, I'm done modding. I don't need that kind of shit, so I really hope what you've got in mind can account for petty and pissed off users with nothing but contempt for mods and too much time on their hands.

Yeah you shouldn't be modding then. Because that's what modding is, you and the other mods obvious contempt for the sites users make you poor mods, you should just quit seriously.

[–]CuilRunnings -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm done modding.

Bye

[–]AnOldHope/r/askhistorians 6ポイント7ポイント  (10子コメント)

And when they threaten us, like when a user threatened to lynch me and even tried to pinpoint my exact location, how would you respond?

[–]random12356622 12ポイント13ポイント  (6子コメント)

When users get banned they should know they got banned.

When spambots get banned, they shouldn't know they got banned, hence 'shadow ban' bots only.

Why would a shadow ban be better than a visible user ban for such activity?

Also IP bans are different than shadow bans.

[–]AnOldHope/r/askhistorians -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Because if you're issuing threats to another human being, then perhaps it's best not to let them know and escalate the situation.

[–]random12356622 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

How would that be a greater than or lesser punishment than the type of punishment the OP described?

[–]curiiouscat -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's not about punishment. It's about keeping people safe from harassment.

[–]random12356622 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

The more toxic users are aware of a shadow bans much faster than the average user.

You shouldn't be teaching people how to detect shadow bans.

You aren't keeping people safer from harassment any better than a visible ban with a waiting period before informing them. What you are doing is teaching people two negative traits 1) how to detect shadow bans, 2) the willingness to abandon accounts.

You realize IP bans are different than shadow bans correct? - and IP isn't the only detectable factor when someone is IP banned.

[–]IceBreak/r/Vita 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Why would a shadow ban be better than a visible user ban for such activity?

The problem with banning all users equally is that for subs that trolls flock to, they simply ban evade. They make a fresh account when they see they've been banned to continue spoiling, insulting, and demeaning. Shadowbans don't outright prevent this but they help a lot in that respect.

Personally, I tend to use the standard ban when a strenuous warning is needed (or after multiple warnings) so they can appeal/get a strong message that they have crossed a line. But when a user continues to break the rules after that or does something so heinous that they no longer have a place in this community, a shadowban gets rid of them better than a regular ban where they can just make a fresh account to continue doing what they were doing.

[–]random12356622 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

From a mod level, I could see that, but from an admin level, I would see the same tool differently.

What I think the OP meant was the admin level tool. Perhaps a delay in informing the user they were banned visibly to allow a cooling off, appeal process, and activity monitoring period.

The goal would be to keep the user in the same account rather than evade such a ban. Similar to how shadow banning keeps spambots in the same account, before they evade such a ban.

[–]GatorDontPlayThatSht -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

/r/thathappened

[–]GayGiles/r/Incest[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

(You might want to distinguish your comment just so people know to read this)

I do hope that the tools we're getting make it so that we don't have to shadowban people but I can't think of anything that would provide such a good blanket prevention measure as automod shadowbans. Of course we'll just have to wait and see.

I think we can all agree that more transparency is good, as long as it doesn't hinder our ability to moderate or cause more unnecessary drama.

[–]SeptimusSette/r/modelusgov 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Will reddit admins help moderators identify alt-accounts used to break subreddit rules without punishment if these accounts aren't being shadowbanned? I ask because I moderate a small sub where in the past people have used day old accounts to harass, post comments which break sub rules, and even ask for brigades of certain members on a much larger subreddit. In the past, I have contacted reddit admins with the username of the alt-account, and they have shadowbanned the main account, but not told me who the main account was.

[–]soundeziner 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Hold on... they shadowbanned the main account for activities they were doing on an alt account? I have to ask because I watched a head mod of a sub use an alt account on the mod team to ask people for compensation to post in the sub. When they were reported, the admins only dealt with the alt account used and left their head mod account active and in place. When asked about it, they said that they only deal with accounts used and NOT the person.

[–]SeptimusSette/r/modelusgov 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thats weird. In this case, it was punishment evasion, so it made sense to punish the main account.

[–]kjhatch/r/gameofthrones 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Admins have been inconsistent about that. Even with a problem like ban evasion sometimes only alts are removed and sometimes they take care of the main too. It's another reason why an automated system is needed that allows subs to remove users completely, and not just accounts one at a time, to provide that consistency with abusive users.

[–]mysteriousPerson 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I made a proposal I hope you'll consider here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3cxedn/i_am_steve_huffman_the_new_ceo_of_reddit_ama/ct001zf

[–]GatorDontPlayThatSht -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

/u/spez they are only upset because most mods are only mods so they can ban people and change narratives.

[–]sticky-bit 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's about the perception of reddit the company banning users, which I don't want us (the company) doing.

Well, you could probably change that perception by issuing a site-wide pardon for every non-spamming user shadowbanned (or locked out via sneaky password change) over the last 90 days then.

Pardon = official forgiveness. It doesn't mean those people have the right to do the same thing that got them banned in the first place, it's instead a demonstration that reddit values their users and understands the turmoil that the site has been going through.

Think about it.

[–]Bluffz2 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

How are you planning to make subreddit management more transparent? Do you only intend to make banning spammers more transparent? What's the exact details on this transparency?

[–]18andover 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You were before my time on reddit. Didn't know what to think. After a day, I am very impressed. You seem sincere, not like you are doing damage control. You also seem to have more than a clue about how reddit works (despite being a makedown noob). Looking forward to seeing where this is headed. Great start, keep it up.

[–]NBegovich -4ポイント-3ポイント  (6子コメント)

Listen, it sounds like you want to innovate. I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with. Are you looking at the possibility of hiring more people to help develop your new tools?

[–]V2Blast/r/RoosterTeeth 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

You say this like they're not already constantly hiring new people.

[–]freezoneandproud/r/scientology 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

None of those job reqs appear to be for community management skills. Which would include someone to think about, "What tools would make mods lives easier?"

I was a sysop on CompuServe in 1990, and our moderation tools then were 1000% better than what we have on reddit today. It's appalling.

Among those basics:

  • A private "section 0" visible only to the sysops, letting us talk through problems ("That user is being a jerk, any idea how to deal with him?")

  • A "thread snip" tool that would let the sysops break off threads and create new ones. E.g. if users got onto a long tangent about baseball in a thread labeled "Chocolate," we could cut off the baseball branch and give it its own "Chocolate" thread.

...and oh so much more.

[–]V2Blast/r/RoosterTeeth 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Reddit has hired several community managers (and, I'm sure, will continue to do so in the future), but that wasn't really what /u/NBegovich was asking about.

A "thread snip" tool that would let the sysops break off threads and create new ones. E.g. if users got onto a long tangent about baseball in a thread labeled "Chocolate," we could cut off the baseball branch and give it its own "Chocolate" thread.

Reddit isn't really built to function this way. I suspect making this possible would require a significant restructuring of the way reddit functions.

A private "section 0" visible only to the sysops, letting us talk through problems ("That user is being a jerk, any idea how to deal with him?")

That I (and many other mods) agree with.

In any case, those two suggestions should probably go in its own thread in /r/ModSupport or /r/ideasfortheadmins (or /r/modtalk or /r/modclub if you just want to brainstorm) if you want them to get implemented in some fashion; replying to me here won't really help with that.

[–]NBegovich -3ポイント-2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well, I mean I don't know. I wanted to learn more about it. If you have information, I can offer you an invite for sharing what you know.

[–]V2Blast/r/RoosterTeeth 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sorry for being a little sarcastic, but the jobs page is linked at the bottom of reddit. You can see that they have a ton of open positions. That answers your question.

[–]K_Lobstah/r/Braveryjerk -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Phew!

[–]sirbruce -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

And yet your own admins banned me from your "own" subreddits (/r/announcements and /r/blog) for daring to voice the opinion that we should have more than 90 minutes warning before planned reddit downtimes. How do you feel about that?

[–]PublicIntelAnalyst -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

From reading some of the rants under this post, I'm inclined to wonder how many of these moderators are moonlighting as troublesome users in other subs to vent angst. Seriously, some of the comments here read exactly like the rants of troublemaking users in some subs.

[–]deadfraggle/r/Treknobabble 14ポイント15ポイント  (25子コメント)

Isn't shadowbanning exclusively an admin ability? The type of banning mods can do, manually or via automod, only bans a user from your sub.

[–]Troggie42 17ポイント18ポイント  (11子コメント)

This is 100% correct. The automod "auto delete this user if they post" kind of ban needs a different name, because it's NOT a shadowban.

[–]Moskau50 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I've seen "botban" used for this type of action.

[–]Troggie42 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I like that one, I'll have to start spreading it where I can. Makes a lot of sense.

[–]Armadylspark 8ポイント9ポイント  (8子コメント)

It is a shadowban in the sense that the user is not notified of their ban. Shadowbans aren't a reddit exclusive.

It's like saying regular bans aren't real bans because they only ban you from the sub instead of reddit as a whole.

[–]PublicIntelAnalyst 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

Shadowban has, historically, referenced a sitewide ban which is undetectable to the user - they can still post and vote and comment, and they will see their stuff, but no one else will.

the automoderator version is silent censorship. the posts and comments are actually removed, making this easily detected by the user (no "shadow" here) and probably only serves to inflame existing tensions between that user and the mods of that subreddit (i.e., it's a bad idea).

regular bans are real bans and, according to spez, they will soon come with a very clear notification of said ban. sitewide bans are usually shadowbans, but sometimes can just be normal bans (ala password changes).

[–]green_flash 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

the posts and comments are actually removed, making this easily detected by the user (no "shadow" here)

Users still see their own posts and comments even if removed by mods, be it via AutoMod or manually. From the user's side there's no difference to an admin shadowban except that it's only for a single subreddit which makes it much harder to detect.

[–]Windover 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Unless of course they're smart enough to permalink and then just log out.

Not really a new thing to do.

[–]Mumberthrax/r/Morrowind 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

same principle applies on a sitewide shadowban. this isn't a legitimate argument supporting shadowbans either sitewide or per subreddit.

[–]Windover 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh for sure. Shadow bans are just being lazy.

[–]escalat0r 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

referenced a sitewide ban which is undetectable to the user

Not really though, you can comment and look at the thread while you're not logged in or make a post in /r/amishadowbanned, it's easy to detect if you're looking for it.

[–]Mumberthrax/r/Morrowind 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

i guess this guy never got the memo http://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/351buo/tifu_by_posting_for_three_years_and_just_now/

[–]escalat0r 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah some mods are approving comments of shadowbanned users and tell them in a reply, I think this should be common practice for users that were shadowbanned for "political reasons"

[–]GayGiles/r/Incest[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (12子コメント)

Reddit-wide shadowbans are limited to admins, yeah. But it looks like he's referring to any type of shadowbanning.

[–]deadfraggle/r/Treknobabble 3ポイント4ポイント  (11子コメント)

Is subreddit banning called shadowbanning? I thought it was simply called banning. When a user is shadowbanned, nobody can see their profile page except the user that was shadowbanned.

[–]GayGiles/r/Incest[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (10子コメント)

That's a reddit-wide shadowban. You can subreddit-shadowban people by using automoderator which basically does the same thing as reddit-wide, but just within the subreddit you set the rule on.

[–]deadfraggle/r/Treknobabble 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

So what's the difference between banning someone from your sub and shadowbanning them from your sub?

Edit: nevermind. I read the manual.

[–]Zak/r/ronpaul 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

You can use automoderator to delete everything a given user submits, which is effectively a shadowban.

[–]deadfraggle/r/Treknobabble 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Maybe one day that will be useful. Right now my bigger problem is getting users to post anything... /r/Treknobabble and /r/DeepSpaceNine do ok, but most of the other subs I mod at are ghost towns apart from mod posts.

[–]NursingInPublic/r/BreakingMom 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Probably because Next Gen is better than DS9. ;-)

[–]Mason11987 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Then this isn't really a concern for you, but for mods of huge subs this is a huge deal, and botbans (subreddit shadodwbans done through auto-mod) are incredibly important.

[–]breakneckridge/r/BestOfStreamingVideo 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

But that user can see that his posts were deleted, so that's not a shadowban.

[–]Moskau50 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

You can't see that a moderator removed your post from your perspective.

The only way you can see that it is removed is if you log out and look for that post, or look for it from a different account; just like a shadowban.

[–]deadfraggle/r/Treknobabble 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can't see that a moderator removed your post from your perspective.

The thumbnail disappears, so yes, I can notice when something I submitted is removed.

[–]PublicIntelAnalyst 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

not really. a shadowban is undetectable (until they actually look deep for evidence) by the user. this automoderator version is obvious after the first time it is applies - you can't "hide" the fact that it is removing posts/comments from the user (like a shadowban does).

[–]Zak/r/ronpaul 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know it's not 100% the same, but people do use automoderator to get the effect of a subreddit shadowban and the results are similar even if it is easier to detect.

[–]PublicIntelAnalyst 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

I know that I personally use shadowbanning via automoderator

That's not shadowbanning in the strictest sense of the word. A shadowban has, historically, referred to a sitewide issue, thus the purpose of /r/amishadowbanned - a subreddit where you can check to see if you are shadowbanned relatively quickly.

What you're describing is a subreddit specific silent censorship which is very easily detected by a user and only creates more problems from outraged users (i.e., you're shooting yourself in the foot with that method).

Under proper administration of this site, you should simply have to:

  • warn the user that they are violating a rule and further violations are subject to ban

  • ban the user if they continue to violate said rule

  • report them to the admins if you believe they have circumvented the ban with a new account

And, it appears (I hope) that, in the case of larger subreddits where some mods are infamous ban-happy tyrants, spez intends to have an appeal procedure in place for moderator abuse of bans (in addition to the obvious potential for erroneously banning someone over a false accusation or whatever).

[–]anutensil 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

And, it appears (I hope) that, in the case of larger subreddits where some mods are infamous ban-happy tyrants, spez intends to have an appeal procedure in place for moderator abuse of bans (in addition to the obvious potential for erroneously banning someone over a false accusation or whatever).

I hope, at the very least.

[–]DBCrumpets/r/tumblrinaction 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

I dislike the fact that nobody's talking about how he also wishes to show removed comments. This is a MUCH bigger deal, at least in my mind.

[–]green_flash 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

agreed. Although he added that it shouldn't be easy whatever that means. Technically speaking it is already possible to show removed comments if you know who made them, as the removed comments are still available in the user's history.

[–]DBCrumpets/r/tumblrinaction 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I made a post about it here, but to that issue in particular, if you know who made the comment you've most likely already read the comment, so that's not an huge deal.

[–]kjhatch/r/gameofthrones 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

As long as subreddits don't have real tools to control trolls, the burden falls on the Admins. If they want to offload the ban work to subs, they need to provide the support to make it possible. The only reason I ever go to the Admins for assistance with a user is when it's a persistent troll with multiple accounts. If they don't want to shadowban for that anymore, they need to provide IP bans for subreddits.

[–]Vusys/r/wow 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Real users should never be shadowbanned. Ever. If we ban them, or specific content, it will be obvious that it's happened and there will be a mechanism for appealing the decision.

I couldn't have put this better myself and it can't come soon enough. /r/wow has far too many legitimate users shadow banned. I try to contact them whenever I see them, but it's a losing battle.

[–]anutensil 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think that what he's suggesting is worthwhile & fair.

[–]distortednet/r/twitch -1ポイント0ポイント  (14子コメント)

terrible idea. Shadow banning needs to be reworked, but I have ran into multiple incidents where regular users try to ban evade and a shadow ban was the only way to stop them.

If the concern is users contributing to other subs normally, but are problematic on a specific sub (and known to ban evade) then i would suggest a subreddit specific shadow banning system instead.

[–]Johnny-Reb 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

If you accept the premise that your "regular users who ban evade" are more properly (and accurately) termed "spammers", then there's no problem.

That's what they are doing, they are spamming your sub with unwanted content.

Shadowbanned. Done.

[–]green_flash 16ポイント17ポイント  (5子コメント)

Posting stuff the mods don't approve of does in no way fall under spamming even under a very broad definition of the term.

[–]GayGiles/r/Incest[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

It depends on the type of content.

[spam]: send the same message indiscriminately to (a large numbers of Internet users).

If someone is spamming a domain/subreddit/offensive message/harassing someone etc. then that is sending a message to a large number of internet users and would be classified as spam.

But to be honest even if the term spammer doesn't directly apply the automod shadowban tool is still ridiculously useful.

[–]green_flash 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of course it's useful. Internet surveillance is useful too, but at a huge cost which I don't think is worth it. Similar can be said about bot bans considering there are other options available for dealing with those who are guilty of repeatedly breaking the site-wide rules.

[–]sugardeath 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

In many cases, the mods are simply upholding the rules and desired content of the subreddit. Silencing people who continue to post blogspam, conspiracy theories, terrible medical advice, and attacks on other users (among other things) is what a lot of us are just trying to do.

[–]green_flash 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Eh, I mod a rather large sub. I know. It's still not spamming. Besides, silencing inconvenient users who don't explicitly break rules is censorship. It's sometimes necessary because of how destructive some users are, but let's not delude ourselves about the nature of our actions.

[–]TheFlyingBastard/r/virtualreality -5ポイント-4ポイント  (6子コメント)

There really is no alternative to shadowbanning via AutoModerator except playing whack-a-mole. If we had a button like "ban this IP address", it would make a lot of difference already, I think.

[–]hughk 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

IP addresses |= Identity. Companies often NAT or proxy so many users have the same address. Outside the US, smaller users (smaller companies and private users) are normally allocated addresses from an ISP pool that must be released daily.

[–]TheFlyingBastard/r/virtualreality 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Dynamic IP addresses are still a thing? I guess as long as IP v6 isn't standard...

[–]hughk 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Very much so. It isn't just pool conservation, it is also forcing you to pay extra for static IPs!

[–]TheFlyingBastard/r/virtualreality 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Interesting. Here in The Netherlands we have IPs that are dynamic in name only, but static in practice. Restarting your modem usually gives you the same IP as well.

[–]hughk 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mostly we get new IPs in Germany but it may be a feature of the ISP.

[–]distortednet/r/twitch 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

yeah, it would. it doesn't even have to expose the IP address. two features i would like to see is

"Check if user has alts used on this sub" - this feature wouldn't have to tell me what alts, but it could tell me if a user has created an alt and commented on the sub at some point.

"ban via IP" - again, no info exposed, but this feature could ban via IP address. can also ban any alt's the user has without exposing that info.

Basically, the same tools that admins already have but with less level of detail.

[–]HereticHierophant -1ポイント0ポイント  (8子コメント)

We've been using automod shadow-banning for people who have a high chance to either continually create new accounts or come after the moderation team for being banned. I have one kid right now who has admitted to being under 13. We've gotten two of his accounts site-wide shadow-banned through the admin team but more have popped up as soon as he realizes it.

Shadow-banning is effect for people who are likely to react harshly to having been banned. We've had moderators threatened in the past with messages to their facebook accounts after some people were banned for trying to spread racist discussion in the subreddit.

[–]GayGiles/r/Incest[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

This all sounds awfully familiar. Particularly in /r/incest we have to shadowban people because it's the only way to get a decent discussion going without them popping in to remind everyone that they like to lick their cousin's dildo or whatever.

Perhaps a little specific, but it's certainly a necessary tool for subreddits over a certain size/activity. That is if you don't want to deal with absolute cunts of users and/or have a mod team larger than the subscriber count.

[–]green_flash 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Continue to message the admins about the new accounts. They have some very good tools to stop even determined alt account creators and are willing to use them in egregious cases.

[–]GayGiles/r/Incest[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

The issue is with admin-moderator communication though, which was the largest part of the blackout recently, if they actually ever reply/take action then that's great. But a lot of the time they don't.

So if we didn't have access to the automod shadowban we'd be forced to manually watch users we know are posting bad shit until the admins maybe do something about it.

[–]V2Blast/r/RoosterTeeth 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I got tired of messaging the admins each time after a particular person in /r/roosterteeth made their 20th account impersonating someone.

[–]Sommiel -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Shadow-banning is effect for people who are likely to react harshly to having been banned.

Oh Hypnotoad, and we have seen it all. Threats, ban evaders, brigaders. Sadly now, we find the abusive return messages to the ban message amusing. We mock them behind their back.

Small joys of being a mod.

We shadow banned a guy literally MONTHS ago and he hasn't notice or said a word to us about it.

[–]GayGiles/r/Incest[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

My record was about 4 months for a guy that was continuously spamming his shitty site. That was fun ;)

[–]Sommiel 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What is hilarious about this guy, is that it's been at least six months and he keeps posting fetid, streaming piles of shit and just has no idea nothing is showing up.

I can't imagine that lack of self awareness.

[–]D-M-Remic -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

I find it to be really awful that u/gaygiles and others use the shadowban system to shape reddit as they want it to be.

This is horrible and unbelievable. BThe Nazi's did the same thing to the Jews in WWII.

The world needs ugliness to appreciate beauty.

The world needs dissenting opinions to thoroughly vet popular ones.

In short, Reddit needs trolls, obvious trolls, so that people can see and appreciate what a good user and contributor to Reddit is.

You all advocating the continue use of the Shadowban system should be ashamed of yourselves.

[–]justcool393/r/TotesMessenger 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

The Nazi's did the same thing to the Jews in WWII.

I didn't know /u/GayGiles enabled the murder of people. What do you have to say for yourself? /s

In short, Reddit needs trolls, obvious trolls, so that people can see and appreciate what a good user and contributor to Reddit is.

So, you want noise on the site? That's kind of stupid.

[–]D-M-Remic -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can't see the parallel in my metaphor... So let me give you a play-by-play. The Nazi's blamed all their own problems I the existence of the Jews (like you with trolls)... So to "improve morale" they rounded all the Jews up (like you do when you support the shadowban systems use for people that are just trolling) and shipped them off to death camps (like you do when you get an individual shadowbanned that you merely disagreed with)...

Did that make sense to you now? Or have you not learned about WWII yet in school?

Regarding noise... I'd rather have that, than complete autonomy and silence. If you feel otherwise you area socialist and potentially a Nazi.

[–]Mumberthrax/r/Morrowind 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I am morally opposed to shadowbans for non-spammers. This sort of thing should never EVER happen: http://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/351buo/tifu_by_posting_for_three_years_and_just_now/

[–]GayGiles/r/Incest[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

If one of the first things he did on reddit was post two links to the same domain then it looks like he didn't get the point of reddit anyway. I'm not necessarily saying that it's a good thing he was shadowbanned, but it seems pretty rare for genuine people to be on the receiving end.

[–]Mumberthrax/r/Morrowind 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've had to notify a fair number of people they've been shadow banned, when by all appearances they were normal users. people have been shadow banned from subreddits using automoderator on even less stable ground. and people make mistakes - like seriously, you're going to say a three year shadowban is justified because he posted two separate links to two relevant subreddits, just because they came from the same domain? I think that is a ridiculous line of thinking.