[–]CallinOutFromMidwest 23ポイント24ポイント25ポイント 1日前 (5子コメント)

[–]TheWallClock 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント 15時間前* (4子コメント)

Hi /u/notanotherloudasian! Thanks for taking the time to start this conversation. Also, props to /u/CallinOutFromMidwest for supporting orderly discussion.

I have a proposal for AF who are dating white men.

Yes, it involves your white boyfriend. No, it does not involve breaking up with him, or dating Asian men in the name of Social Justice. Do I have your attention? Great!

I'd like to start by addressing one of your main points /u/notanotherloudasian:

I acknowledge that historically AFs have demonstrated preference for white partners far more often than AMs, but regardless of gender we need to strongly criticize the underlying attitudes of this preference.

Most AM realize that we won't be changing anyone's mind in this discussion. Regardless of whether 'personal preferences' are harmful to our community, and regardless of the extent to which these preferences are molded by cultural forces opposed to Asian empowerment, AF will simply not change their dating habits after speaking to anonymous redditors. AM are similarly set in their views.

Both genders have voiced their concerns. AF believe that their men are unfairly attacking their white preference due to excess bitterness, and thus pulling the community apart. AM believe that their women are actively spurning AM due to internalized racism, and thus pulling the community apart.

"Well, fuck me,"

says the well-meaning AF, who wants to empower Asian men, but also wants to keep her white boyfriend.

"What am I supposed to do?"

You, as an AF, would be showing extremely good faith if you got your white boyfriend to:

Actively and vocally support Asian men, and AM empowerment
Post links/articles/pictures addressing AM-specific issues and showcasing healthy AMXF relationships
Be completely serious while doing so, and sustain this effort into the future

He will be liking AM empowerment links, sharing them on Facebook/Twitter on a regular basis, and willingly engaging people in discussion. Bonus points if you post screenshots (with blurred out names if that makes you comfortable) on /r/AsianAmerican or other social media.

Why this is great:

It takes the pressure off you, as an AF, to show that you're not all talk about AMAF solidarity. Haters love to call you out cause you're dating a white boy. Show them they're wrong by joining your white boy to our cause.
If you really are our sisters, and you actually stand in solidarity with us, this is a very reasonable request.
If your white boyfriend really cares about you, and you really care about us, you should be able to convince him to do it.
This is a good opportunity to talk with your white boyfriend about race, the dating disparity, and the unique dynamics surrounding AFWM. If he's considerate, he'll listen. If he doesn't give a fuck about the tension and stress this is causing you, he's probably not an ally to the Asian community. Or he's just a dick, and you should consider getting a new boyfriend.

Obviously, you want Asian men to make a similar gesture.

I absolutely agree; it's only fair. I'll be doing a post on this in the future, based on how this post is received.

/u/tamallamaluv, /u/kamala_metamorph, /u/MaryboRichard, /u/fembot12, /u/metsuken, /u/asiantemp, you all might be interested in this.

Let me know your thoughts :)

[–]the0clean0slate [スコア非表示] 9時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]ShotgunMunroe 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 15時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]TheWallClock 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 15時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 14時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]ironforger51 17ポイント18ポイント19ポイント 1日前 (2子コメント)

[–]fembot12 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント 1日前* (1子コメント)

This bitterness is more present on the net than real life. On the net, it only takes a few voices to make things loud

I would argue that even if you don't hear the voices in real life, most AA men I've spoken to are bothered by this phenomenon (or were bothered at some point). It's just hard to have a discussion about this topic because it sounds like you are arguing against interracial dating or interracial marriage in general when you're really just talking about the dynamics specific to AFWM.

Also, the emotions triggered when seeing these types of relationships seems to be common among many AA guys. It is described well in an excerpt from the book, Asian American Sexual Politics:

Irwin has an instant emotional reaction to seeing Asian American women with non-Asian men. He portrays this reaction as an instinctual, biologically tied response:

"Because every man has that visceral response. When they see some type of woman, whether it's by genotype or phenotype, who they feel like she's part of their ethnic group or class, going out with someone else, it brings an automatic response. I think it's caveman-esque. If a woman of my tribe or group is going out with someone else, there's some reaction there. I'm not going to lie to you or pretend like I'm this perfect left-wing writer on race. Of course there's a response."

While those relationships may be happy and egalitarian, Irwin's visceral response is really a response to how he has been treated his whole life and the deep understanding and connection he shares to Asian American history. He describes it as "caveman-esque," but oppression creates real emotional and physical responses. Irwin normalizes the white-created racial hierarchy of dating and partnership by saying that any man would be mad if women of their race were dating someone outside of the group. White men partnering with Asian American women become a form of symbolic violence. White men are constructed as the most ideal partner in a number of ways and for Irwin to see these types of partnerships becomes another microaggression, adding to his collection of racialized experiences throughout his lifetime.

You can read the full excerpt ('The Great Interracial Debate') here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/46ofwfrw2cfk1e2/Chou2012_Excerpt.pdf?dl=0

[–]wobble_ 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 12時間前* (3子コメント)

Ideas on how to overcome generations of bitterness and hurt on both sides and stop allowing it to distract us as a community from the real problem? What are constructive ways we can end this “house divided” situation?

I think the best thing to do is to go out and influence the people immediately around you. I don't necessarily mean like showing up with flyers and shit, but like taking the opportunities when they arise to open dialogue about AAPI/M/F issues. Some people still aren't fully awake to the issue of white supremacy and how it affects AAPIs. Views are rarely changed on the internet, in my experience.

As a Chinese-American guy trying to make it as a musician, I feel that I am in a unique position to influence the way that people perceive Asian men.

The bitterness and hurt can't be broken down overnight, but I want to build towards a better AAPI community to raise our children in, knowing that it supports all our sons and daughters in their Asian identities.

This is the big goal for me. My future kids will be at least half Asian, and will have an Asian last name (or at least half Asian last name if we hyphenate or something). You hear stories about how black kids get a different "talk" from their parents. I sometimes think about what that talk will be like between me and my son. The existence of communities such as AsianMasculinity exist for AM to talk about how to be a man. This sticks out to me because I always thought that we should learn this from our fathers/male role models. While I am generally supportive of that community, hopefully my son won't have to ever find an online forum to learn about how to talk to women and stand up to white supremacy.

Also, if I have a daughter, will her mother be able to talk to her about more female specific issues? (This could be a very ignorant question, but what are the AF-specific issues? Fetishization and white male entitlement seem to be the most talked about, but I feel like that's an issue of misogyny that all minority women would face.)

A whole bunch of arrows is harder to break than a single arrow.

Opportunity for a joke about downvote brigades in there somewhere.

[–]tamallamaluv[M] 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 12時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]wobble_ 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 11時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]Goat_Porker2nd gen [スコア非表示] 4分前 (0子コメント)

[–]xin05 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 21時間前 (4子コメント)

I followed one of your posts in the other subreddit and I have to say I'm glad it's being brought up again here, I was really enjoying the quality of some of the posts there and surprised at the self awareness both men and women were showing there.

I acknowledge that historically AFs have demonstrated preference for white partners far more often than AMs, but regardless of gender we need to strongly criticize the underlying attitudes of this preference.

Eh I dunno, in my experience both AA men and AA women seem to give serious bonus points to white men and women, the difference is that (in general) AA women seem to have an easier time finding reciprocation from white males. In other words hypothetically if the situation were reversed I don't have a hard time imagining a world where AA men date out at similar rates to AA women now.

The root problem for both of our sides is that in the western world we're made to feel that there is something inherently wrong or worse with being Asian at a young age, and that if we want to feel like we belong we either have to insult our brothers/sisters/heritage or try and date a white person. There is nothing wrong with dating a white person, but there is something wrong with using another human being to plug up some hole of insecurity inside of yourself.

A whole bunch of arrows is harder to break than a single arrow.

Is this a Genghis Khan reference? If so you're like my hero lol. It's a great quote from him that I think is really relevant for this discussion: for those of us who don't know supposedly this is what the Great Khan told his children in regards to showing unity after he passed on and one of them would be chosen as a successor. He knew that the ancient Chinese had used the divisions between steppe nomad tribes as a way to control them, intentionally driving wedges between them to prevent them from unifying. What better analogy for the current state of Asian Americans here in the US?

[–]SmiffnWessnWELCOME TO ERF 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 17時間前 (2子コメント)

The root problem for both of our sides is that in the western world we're made to feel that there is something inherently wrong or worse with being Asian at a young age, and that if we want to feel like we belong we either have to insult our brothers/sisters/heritage or try and date a white person.

And that it's okay to use stereotypes to insult Asians, or that words like chink, gook, etc. aren't as bad as nigger. Any Asian that speaks up against this is "being too sensitive". A lot of Asians unfortunately like to echo the "lighten up" excuse.

It's part of that 'model minority' nonsense and I think we should start speaking up against it. We're also many comedian's (or people who just think they're funny) last bastion hope for this type of humor. I really don't want to be that to them. A few years ago I was watching an opinion show on a major conservative news network. One of the talking heads did the 'dog-eating Asians' joke (America's favorite animal and we're "known" for eating them). No repercussions for that but there's always a swift apology for any other group they happen to attack. The point isn't oppression olympics but that we should demand the same level of respect.

[–]xin05 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 12時間前* (0子コメント)

>And that it's okay to use stereotypes to insult Asians, or that words like chink, gook, etc. aren't as bad as nigger. Any Asian that speaks up against this is "being too sensitive."

I agree, the whole reason they're able to use "being too sensitive" to stamp down any protest from us is because a lot of people can see how insecure some of us are about our race. When a non-Asian person see's one of us making fun ourselves and other Asians to try and fit in it's not hard to connect the dots and see it as it is: a weakness to exploit.

>A lot of Asians unfortunately like to echo the "lighten up" excuse.

Ugh. I'm all for diversity of opinion man but still this makes me cringe hard every time. I mean it's so commonplace it's like a law of nature or something; we could see a video of an Asian guy getting beaten by KKK members screaming chink at him and I would still expect the first comment to be "Asian guy/girl here, let me just say this isn't racist because blah blah blah I hate myself." Maybe I'm too cynical on this point.

コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 20時間前* (0子コメント)

Eh I dunno, in my experience both AA men and AA women seem to give serious bonus points to white men and women, the difference is that (in general) AA women seem to have an easier time finding reciprocation from white males. In other words hypothetically if the situation were reversed I don't have a hard time imagining a world where AA men date out at similar rates to AA women now.

As inclined as I am to agree with you especially from my personal experience, I hesitate to say the underlying attitude occurs equally on both sides simply because it hasn't been quantified and studied on the AM side. Doesn't mean the phenomenon is rare at all, but I come from both a hard science background (actually I hold both humanities and science degrees but that's beside the point) and many (especially AM bros) demand cold hard numbers and studies to back any claims, and I know those don't exist yet. That's the reason for my phrasing.

Is this a Genghis Khan reference?

Haha yup, mama notanotherloudasian hammered that into my head. Asian parents ftw.

[–]fembot12 23ポイント24ポイント25ポイント 1日前 (15子コメント)

Very well said. Thanks a lot for trying to get a discussion going about these issues. Since we will likely be talking a bit about AFWM relationships, I'd like to bring up what I believe are two misconceptions about these types of relationships.

1) 'Yellow fever' is responsible for the prevalence of AFWM relationships

This has been shown to be false by various studies (S1, S2, S3, S4). It is in fact 'white fever' or the preference of AF for WM that is responsible. The following finding is from the American Journal of Sociology article:

For example, gendered racial formation theory attributes the prevalence of Asian women–white men pairing to white men’s preference toward stereotypically submissive women. Yet we do not find that white men show particular preference for Asian women. Instead it is Asian women who are more responsive to white men.

Of course, this does not speak to fetishization which is very real and is a major issue in AF relationships.

2) AFWM relationships are a sign of racial progress or living in a colorblind society

I'll also group into this narrative the argument that AFWM is common because 'opposites attract'. Again, this narrative does not match with the data (for example: female/male messaging preference based on race from the American Journal of Sociology article). When dating and marrying interracially AF only seem to strongly prefer white males. Not Black males. Not Hispanic males. This points to white supremacy more than colorblindness.

If people are interested in more data or more details about the data I'd be happy to include more.

[–]fakeslimshady 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 1日前 (13子コメント)

[–]asiantemp 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 1日前 (11子コメント)

[–]fakeslimshady 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 1日前 (10子コメント)

[–]asiantemp 14ポイント15ポイント16ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

[–][削除されました] 11時間前 (4子コメント)

[deleted]

[–]chinglishese[M] [スコア非表示] 5時間前 (0子コメント)

コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 16時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]fakeslimshady 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 15時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 14時間前 (0子コメント)

Lets discuss White Fever (which is severe) without being Yellow Fever denialists.

agreed. I feel like a lot of similar or parallel sentiments are being expressed in this thread, not just in your comments but also in comments from other users. A lot of them are excellent. I don't really see how they contradict each other. I see a lot of nitpicking on which point is emphasized more and perceived contradictions but the reality is that this is a very complex issue and there are many co-existing facets of it. To take just two of the points presented: White fever exists. Yellow fever exists. They don't negate each other. They are both factors in the problems manifested in our communities. Both of them are caused by white supremacy, one by AAs buying it, and the other by whites living it.

I think there is confusion on how white supremacy is manifested simply bc it manifests itself in so many, almost countless ways. One poster brings one manifestation up and another attacks it by presenting a different manifestation. I'm being simplistic here but a lot of the comment chains have gone down rabbit holes. I see how difficult it is to discuss solutions when we're not sure what we're even looking at here.

[–]asiantemp 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 16時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]alwaysasian 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 23時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]asiantemp 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 1日前* (0子コメント)

What was interesting about that messaging preference grid was that Black women and Latina women, in addition to Asian women, favored White men over men of their own race.

Also, Black women favored Latino men over Black men, and Latina women favored Asian men over Latino men.

The most discriminated groups, unsurprisingly, were Black men and women.

Asian men didn't fare too badly, but they seemed to be disproportionately disfavored by White women (when given the fact that all other races of women seemed to be pretty receptive to us).

White women are, by far, the most "race loyal" to men of their own race. But White men do not reciprocate this kind of loyalty. This basically means that interracial dating expands White men's options and social power while not doing the same for White women.

Summary: White supremacy makes White men far and above the most coveted type of partner for heterosexual women of ALL races. With this wealth of options, White men seem to favor Asian women the most.

[–]futuregoat 14ポイント15ポイント16ポイント 1日前* (55子コメント)

I think one of the main reasons for heat this subject gets is because of the constant dismissal male POCs receive whenever this subject pops up. The more we ignore this the more steam will build up.

i think we should acknowledge the fact that there are a lot of AFs that have an unhealthy preference for WM and stop pretending that it's a natural law of attraction or something else. It's no coincidence that there are many profiles on dating sites from AF that explicitly state that they only like WM or something along those lines. Or the high amount of WM/AF relationships. I found it interesting that around 90% of the messages that my WM friends receive on dating websites are from AF while my non white friends don't get any from them (we actually did a little test in regards to this and I will tell that story another time.). Let's face the facts...... there is a trend and it's not entirely caused by some natural preference. I also find this is also not as simple as "ewww I don't date <insert race here> "

What are constructive ways we can end this “house divided” situation?

My thoughts....Well first guys need to stop attacking and the girls need to start listening. There was a great thread on asiantwox which actually had AFs admitting to being victims of preferring WM and discussing their feeling about it. I thought the thread provided a great discussion before it was nuked.

A whole bunch of arrows is harder to break than a single arrow.

In order to do this everyone needs to be on the same page.There can't be guys joining this that will continue to hate on AFs or AFs that acknowledge this but still continue to not want to date non-white men because they "can't help what they like".

[–]MsNewKicks 21ポイント22ポイント23ポイント 1日前 (53子コメント)

I stepped into that asiantwox thread right before it was dropped but here is what I posted there:

"I'm an Asian female. Born and raised in the US, I have never dated a white guy. Not that I don't find some attractive, I just don't have any desire to date one. With that said, I'd say 9 out of 10 guys that approach me are white. And when I tell them I'm not interested or some other polite way of saying "no, thank you" I'd say a good portion of them act shocked. A few have been brazen enough to ask me something along the lines of "don't Asians like white guys?". So the commenter who said that white guys are more aggressive is correct and I'd go one step further to say that they can be even emboldened when pursuing Asian females.

In the areas that I've lived in (Seattle, NYC and now the Bay Area), you really only see Asian females with either Asian males or with white males. I almost want to say that I see more AFWM couples than I do AFAM couples. And when I see an Asian female on TV whether it's a show, a commercial or a movie, almost always with a white guy. So it's almost a subliminal message to AFs that they need to be with a white guy.

If you happen to fall for a white guy who treats you nice, buys you tampons and likes your dog, awesome. But if you fall for a white guy because he's a white guy, that's where a lot of Asian males are getting upset. And even in my own group, I know a few who date white guys because it's almost the "in" thing right now. Similar to having an LV bag, a teacup dog or whatever fad, some girls follow what other girls are doing.

So I won't say all Asian women worship white males but a good portion are in it because of some sort of internalized racism, whether they know it or not."

[–]lionspaw1cishet male 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 1日前 (3子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 16時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]asiantemp 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 16時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]MsNewKicks 12ポイント13ポイント14ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

[–]futuregoat 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 1日前 (44子コメント)

Oh yea I read that and agreed with you. I as well as my AF friends have experienced the same thing you have. I have not come across a real "asian fetishist" in years. I have only seen WM assume AFs were easy and automatically in to them because of their race. I can't blame them for thinking this because they see the amount of WM/AF couples and the amount of AF that have a preference of WM. My AF friends get approached like you have and even though they reject them. They know the next AF they talk to may very well say yes because of his race.

In the areas that I've lived in (Seattle, NYC and now the Bay Area), you really only see Asian females with either Asian males or with white males. I almost want to say that I see more AFWM couples than I do AFAM couples.

As I have said before I see this as well and it makes you think what's wrong with the other male POCs????

[–]MsNewKicks 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1日前 (5子コメント)

[–]metsukenJeet Kune Flowin' 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 23時間前 (4子コメント)

[–]MsNewKicks 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 23時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 16時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]metsukenJeet Kune Flowin' 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 16時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]xaynie 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1日前 (37子コメント)

As I have said before I see this as well and it makes you think what's wrong with the other male POCs????

There is nothing wrong with them. Colonialism, imperialism, and white supremacy are all reasons why negative stereotypes of other male POCs exist. It has become so intertwined, that it has trickled down into our very culture.

Story time: My family are Vietnamese immigrants. I came here when I was 5. I grew up Asian-American and so did my mom (she was 20) when she came here.

She and my aunt both dated men from different races. But whenever they brought home a Black man or a Latino man, my grandmother (she was the matriarch) would drive the men off, threaten to disown my mom, and would manipulate her into leaving the men (doesn't matter if they were good people!). It got to a point where they would have to sneak around and keep hush-hush if they WERE NOT dating Asian (preferably Vietnamese) men or White men (I know because I helped them sneak around with the men since they knew limited English, I became their translator).

This issue, runs far, far deeper than meets the eye and I'm really sick of being attacked for issues that were created even before I got to the states.

[–]futuregoat 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1日前 (35子コメント)

[–]xaynie 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1日前 (34子コメント)

[–]futuregoat 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 23時間前 (28子コメント)

[–]asiantemp 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 23時間前* (0子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 15時間前* (5子コメント)

When another AF stays I don't date <insert race here> or has a very suspect dating history..... say something.

I do this. I call on aware AFs to do this. Ladies, you know your girls. You know what we talk about when the guys aren't around. My girlfriends know that I won't and don't just shut up. Thankfully they still love me.

But when the issue of speaking up in support and actively choosing to date POC came up in recent conversations over at a2x, many of the replies were from AMs ranting about white-worshiping AFs. AMs need to allow AFs time and space to work out their internalized racism. This is something that AFs need to work on inside the AF part of the community, and the clamor of AMs inserting their voices into those conversations ruins a work in progress. It's easier and more effective to hear the same message from someone who actually understands and goes through the same experience of navigating the dating world as an AF. AMs "preaching" at AFs is counter-productive especially when dat rage could be directed at something else.

I don't mean for AMs to remain silent and take the abuse when AFs shit talk AMs. However I think engaging with that type of AF is useless and just wastes time. It's a trap to piss off AFs at large when AMs in their (rightful) anger make generalizing remarks and accusations. Don't give them an audience. Pay attention to the AFs who are allies and amplify their voices instead of creating more buzz around non-allies.

As much as I dislike one group telling the other what to do, I think AMs need to resolve their own issues with white supremacy and white worship in their own spaces too. AMs need to speak up against the "date white grillz" mentality. (Is that what it's called? Idk.) As an AF, me talking about it is often seen as a personal attack out of jealousy or something. Again, it's easier and more effective for an AM to hear the same message from someone who actually understands and goes through the same experience of navigating the dating world as an AM.

[–]TheWallClock 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 14時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]asiantemp 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 13時間前 (3子コメント)

AMs need to allow AFs time and space to work out their internalized racism. This is something that AFs need to work on inside the AF part of the community, and the clamor of AMs inserting their voices into those conversations ruins a work in progress. It's easier and more effective to hear the same message from someone who actually understands and goes through the same experience of navigating the dating world as an AF. AMs "preaching" at AFs is counter-productive especially when dat rage could be directed at something else.

This is a really interesting and important point.

I think a lot of AMs would back off if more of us had confidence that this "work in progress" was genuine and being done in good faith.

Fairly or unfairly, Asian guys think of The Joy Luck Club or their personal experiences with self-hating Asian girls when it comes to AFs talking about race and attraction.

So how to get rid of this distrust? That's the hard question, right? I think the fear among Asian guys is that if we don't interject, then AFs will talk about their internalized racism, tell each other that it's all okay because it's White supremacy's fault, then go back to resuming their prior behaviors with a clear conscience.

このスレッドの続きを見る

コメントをもっと表示する (21 返事)

[–]asiantemp 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 1日前 (4子コメント)

[–]xaynie 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 22時間前* (3子コメント)

1) Not badmouthing any race nor loudly outcry preference for one race over another. I think this adds a lot to the problem AM are facing when it comes to the dating arena.

2) Tear down all the negative stereotypes of POC's in mainstream media. This is why I have big issues with Racebending and want more representation of POC's in our media in general. This is beyond race though, I wholly support publishers who put POC's of all orientations, genders, etc. in the forefront of their content.

3) Speak out against racist attitudes with those who are within my circle to do so. For instance, even though I can't change my old grandmother's perceptions, I still speak up against her racist comments and white worship. It puts a huuuge strain on our relationship but I have issues with complacent ignorance.

EDIT: And while I appreciate you telling me I'm not part of the problem , it seems many other AM's do.

[–]asiantemp 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 22時間前 (2子コメント)

1) Not badmouthing any race nor loudly outcry preference for one race over another. I think this adds a lot to the problem AM are facing when it comes to the dating arena.

Okay, but this is largely a passive stance. Affirmative acts usually lend more credibility than acts of omission. For example, if a guy proclaimed himself to be a proponent of gender equality because he abstained from groping women, he wouldn't have a lot of credibility and rightfully so.

I think a better alternative would be, if you ever find yourself in an unforced situation where you can talk up Asian guys, to try to do so.

2) Tear down all the negative stereotypes of POC's in mainstream media. This is why I have big issues with Racebending and want more representation of POC's in our media in general. This is beyond race though, I wholly support publishers who put POC's of all orientations, genders, etc. in the forefront of their content.

Okay, but please make sure to often include Asian men in this because anti-AM sentiments often get lost in the more popular and visible fights against anti-Black prejudice or sexist representations. In other words, just because you speak out against, say, stereotypical portrayals of Black people in the media doesn't automatically make you seem like an ally of AM.

3) Speak out against racist attitudes with those who are within my circle to do so. For instance, even though I can't change my old grandmother's perceptions, I still speak up against her racist comments and white worship. It puts a huuuge strain on our relationship but I have issues with complacent ignorance.

That's great, though usually, I think prejudiced old people are beyond our reach. Rather, I'd focus more on people who are more in touch with the present and future.

このスレッドの続きを見る

[–]I3IO_HAZARD 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 15時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]getonmyhype 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 23時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]MsNewKicks 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 23時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]getonmyhype 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 22時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 16時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]mehaccount000 12ポイント13ポイント14ポイント 22時間前* (31子コメント)

Wow this is insane this thread has exploded. I am an Asian male and I've never dated, or been close friends with an Asian female. I think a lot of that has to do with the notion that so many Asian females are not interested in Asian men which results in me rarely approaching Asian females regardless if I'm interested or just feel like making conversation.

I think it has become hardwired into my brain to just simply avoid Asian females. Knowing that my sister and my female cousins have spoken quite vocally about how they were will not date Asian men. Adding on top of that the many Asian females that I do interact with almost always prefer white males.

My response has always been, "whatever I guess Asian women aren't into Asian men" and that was it . I was completely unaware that this topic generated so much discussion.

[–]mw621988 17ポイント18ポイント19ポイント 20時間前 (9子コメント)

I'm similar to you. I'll share an experience from this weekend:

I had been messaging this Asian girl I met online. She seemed cool enough, but she suddenly stopped responding to messages sometime last week. I think “oh well, whatever” and expect to never hear from her again, but I get a message from her wanting to hang out over the weekend.

I agree and am about to set a location when she lets it slip that the reason she wants to meet is so she can get “guy advice” on this white dude she met a few days ago and to keep herself busy so as to avoid contacting this dude that day.

I think wtf and politely decline her invitation to meet. She asks me why. I tell her I don’t feel like getting involved in strangers’ relationship issues and ask her how she would respond to a dude saying, “so hey, at what is essentially our first date, I expect you to give me advice about so-and-so-girl-who’s-not-you and you’re pretty much just a distraction/time killer.”

She then proceeds to get mad at me, calling me overly “tense” and a “typical Asian guy.” At this point, I sense she is just looking for a fight and stop replying. She sends a few more angry messages.

Situations like this are why I, like you, hardly ever approach Asian girls anymore. Luckily, I had other options this weekend.

[–]macnjack 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 16時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]toshi_X 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 13時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]asiantemp [スコア非表示] 58分前 (0子コメント)

[–]epicstarFilam [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]neonfuzion 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 17時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]asiantemp 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 16時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 16時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]mehaccount000 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 19時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]alandizzleI'm Asian. Hi. 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 20時間前 (20子コメント)

[–]mehaccount000 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 19時間前 (19子コメント)

[–]alandizzleI'm Asian. Hi. 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 19時間前 (18子コメント)

[–]mehaccount000 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 19時間前 (17子コメント)

[–]ShotgunMunroe 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 17時間前 (8子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 16時間前 (4子コメント)

I grew up in extremely non diverse (read: white), small towns. Main St., America, and the works. I thought I was "American." Then I realized that my definition of "american" and my neighbors and associates' definition of "american" were pretty damn different, and that I did not fit their ideas of what it was to be American. That's when I realized that I was Asian American.

Fast forward a couple years, and I spent time in both Vancouver and SGV (currently not that far away from SGV). I was overwhelmed by how normal it was to see another Asian outside my family. (Sad, I know.) But in my interactions with the community at large, I could see and sense the undercurrents of resentment from the "native" whites especially in Vancity. If you've heard of Richmond, a suburb in Vancouver where the street signs are in Chinese, you may have seen some of the news reports regarding white citizens upset about the "takeover" of their city. SGV is not immune to this either, although I've noticed that non-Asians in SoCal and the greater LA area are mostly unaware that the SGV exists or that it's predominantly Asian. Idk why. It's interesting.

[–]ShotgunMunroe 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 16時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 15時間前 (2子コメント)

Damn. Vancouver vs. SGV. I have family that immigrated to both locales, and have spent a lot of time in both areas visiting and living there.

My take on Vancouver is that it has a very steady stream of immigrants. Used to be HK immigrants (part of my roots) to the point that Vancity was "Little HK." It's not anymore, thanks to immigration laws that allowed mainland Chinese moneybags to immigrate as "investors." Some of these moneybags chose to stay home and send their children to Vancouver for education--with very well-lined pockets. Many of these immigrants still have a lot going on for them in Asia, be it business or family, and the whole immigrant struggle of building a new future in a new land is not really the picture we see in Vancouver. It's a very international mindset--get my education and go back to the family business in Asia, or start a branch/outpost of the business here etc etc.

SGV has a lot more 2nd and 3rd and even 4th generation Asians, mostly Chinese (a lot of Taiwanese) and Vietnamese. Many of them are very well integrated into mainstream society, and there is a strong "bobalife" thing going on which I think is supportive of a healthy AA identity, as much as I take issue with some of the Fung Bros' approach to AA topics. Arcadia HS routinely churns out National Merit finalists, and tutor centers are around every corner. The OG immigrants are retired and living well in communities with their friends and loved ones nearby. The "walk down to the street to buy veggies" lifestyle is alive and kicking. Even the older folk who are forced to be hospitalized or are in skilled nursing facilities due to medical conditions are cared for by diverse staff who speak the language, with Chinese veggies served in the cafeteria. Haha, I'm rambling. I'm really fond of the SGV. I think it's slightly more insulated from racism like what Richmond has experienced simply because fewer non-Asians are aware of its existence.

I have never been to the midwest. Unfortunately I can't speak to that. I have a friend (1.5 gen Asian) studying in Oklahoma, and another friend who went to OK for college and then went back to Asia where he was from. It seems that there is a community of international students around certain cities in OK, and that's all I know from hearsay.

このスレッドの続きを見る

[–]mehaccount000 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 17時間前* (2子コメント)

[–]alandizzleI'm Asian. Hi. 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 18時間前 (7子コメント)

[–]mehaccount000 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 18時間前 (6子コメント)

[–]alandizzleI'm Asian. Hi. 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 18時間前 (5子コメント)

[–]mehaccount000 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 18時間前 (4子コメント)

このスレッドの続きを見る

[–]really_cool_name 12ポイント13ポイント14ポイント 1日前 (15子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 1日前* (14子コメント)

Really quick reply on my lunch break: you and others have expressed the sentiment of "too late" at least for this current generation. But who is raising the next generation? What are we teaching our children/future children? When the young people go to the internet to read information on which to base their budding opinions, they're going to see our ideas. (I know we stereotype redditors as 35 year old males hunched over in a basement but reddit is starting to skew younger and younger. Some of them are here. One of our mods is a young AF--sorry don't want to summon the wrong person, I'm on mobile and can't check her user's spelling.) If we don't believe in it or work towards unity ourselves, it's impossible to pass that to the next generation. Lead by example. We don't need them to repeat history as entrenched as it is. I know kids like to reinvent the wheel (I did too) but we are the ones going through this now, and we have to have the knowledge to drop on them. We can't wash our hands of it and write it off as "the next generation's responsibility."

[–]asiantemp 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 1日前 (4子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 23時間前 (3子コメント)

コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

[–]disposable_me_0001 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 22時間前 (7子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 21時間前 (6子コメント)

[–]fembot12 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 21時間前 (4子コメント)

[–]macnjack 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 18時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]ShotgunMunroe 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 18時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 16時間前 (0子コメント)

コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

[–]disposable_me_0001 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 21時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]birdy713 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 23時間前 (9子コメント)

[–]fembot12 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 16時間前* (1子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 13時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 15時間前 (6子コメント)

Ah...well I didn't mean "walk up to the nearest AFWM couple and scream in her face about being a race traitor and a whore." I've seen the internet equivalent of this and I really question people who think it's productive.

I think it's easiest if AFs address AFs and AMs address AMs. It's difficult to hear a possibly unpleasant message from someone who is not going through the same experience as your own.

My personal approach in my social circles is not to attack my friends who exclusively date white men. Instead, we've talked about hot Asian celebrities (some AA, some not), and I've talked positively about many of the Asian men I've dated. I don't feel the need to explain away any jerk behavior simply because they're Asian, but...let's be real, ladies you know we break it down when it's a girls' night out. You know what I'm talking about.

I've shared some of my negative experiences with white guys (many of which I was not even dating--the level of comfort WM enjoy to share racist attitudes and views with random Asian women is mind boggling), and we've talked about reasons for it. I think I've helped many of my GFs see the underlying current and many acknowledge that the media is part of the issue. One of my good AF friends who is crazy about anime prefers Asian guys. Her roommate, another AF, dates exclusively white guys. As silly as it sounds, commenting stupid jokes like "haha Bendyduck Cucumberpants needs to get a tan" when she tweets pictures of hot white guys shows that a different viewpoint exists. Maybe it's just the way my friends and I communicate, we're early to mid twenties. Change happens slowly.

[–]SmiffnWessnWELCOME TO ERF 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 13時間前 (1子コメント)

the level of comfort WM enjoy to share racist attitudes and views with random Asian women is mind boggling

Reminds me of when I saw some Japanese-American girls getting hit on by a group of White men at a local brewery a few months ago. They were making fun of "Japanese culture"...well, the 5% of it that Americans make fun of and pretend it represents the whole thing, anyways. They were speaking "Engrish" (their own words) and everything.

The worst part was that it was working and the girls loved them. I know better but it's hard not to think this is all a lost cause when White guys have it so good they can use racism to hit on Asian women. And I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't the only Asian guy that's seen something like this.

Anyways, not just throwing this out there randomly. I hope AF's like you can get through to AF's like these because this just can't be right...

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 13時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]birdy713 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 13時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 12時間前 (2子コメント)

Nope, I am not talking about cursing or bullying.

Not you specifically, that was for readers to learn and understand.

Sharing negative experiences def doesn't work for people in stable relationships with white partners. "omg my white bf is nothing like that." And who knows, maybe he isn't. I'm not gonna attack what has already happened. If the Asian partner chooses to make disparaging comments about Asians I will shut that down, no tolerance. Otherwise I don't see any reason to ruin someone else's relationship and happiness.

If the relationship is founded on the wrong reasons, it will fall apart sooner or later, and I've witnessed this many times with my GFs and even in my extended family. Maybe it's rude to point it out after a breakup but depending on my relationship to the Asian in question I might say something if I had evidence for it.

Which brings me to another point. Friends don't always know everything going on in friends' lives, much less the lives of strangers on the internet. We feel so fucking entitled to judge strangers' relationships. I only question people who tear down our community with shit talk about ourselves. Shit talking the other gender reflects on you and the community at large.

[–]birdy713 [スコア非表示] 9時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK [スコア非表示] 38分前 (0子コメント)

Yeah...i just don't believe in personal attacks or what people perceive as personal attacks. It's a touchy subject and few people "in love" take kindly to what they perceive as attacks on the person they're crazy about right now and attacks on themselves. You're probably going up against a lot of denial.

I'm don't think it's right or wrong to confront someone while they're dating a white partner--really depends on your friendship, but I still can't bring myself to do that. I do think it is justifiable to be confrontational with "repeat offenders" who have a consistent dating track record. I personally don't say much beyond teasing till after the breakup. That's just my personal take.

I agree that personal interest comes after community. But dating is not everything in life, in spite of how much discussion it generates and the amount of energy people invest in it. It depends on your personal priorities--I choose my battles.

[–]tamallamaluv 12ポイント13ポイント14ポイント 1日前* (14子コメント)

I'll just talk about something three of my AF friends and I started over a month ago. We created a Google Doc for rating celebrities based mainly on attractiveness (although we all did have bias for starring in specific shows, being funny in interviews or whatever).

We have 285 celebrities on this doc right now and still add to it occasionally. I'd estimate that less than 50 of them are POC, and I'm including mixed-race men in that number. We all noticed the lack of Asian men on the list, but well, we didn't really know any Asian celebrities. There are probably a dozen or so Asian drama/pop stars on the list.

We all put the ten men we rated highest onto a chart at the top of the doc: here's a screenshot.

I'm the first column. I have seven white guys (edit: well, one of them is half-Palestinian/Lebanese lol) and three Asian guys (with #10 being a hapa, I believe). But anyway, I do consider myself a consumer of Asian media through anime and video games, although I'm not a big fan of K-pop (faces are too obviously plastic and full of makeup for me to like).

Second column: all white guys. She had no exposure to video games as a kid, hates anime, hates K-pop etc. On a side note, she's told me before that she wants a hapa kid.

Third column: Reads a lot of manga & light novels. Has played a bunch of Asian MMOs before. She likes K-pop (but blatantly admitted that she doesn't really like Kim Sunggyu's face so much as his fun personality). But anyway - six white guys, four Asian guys (with #3 being a hapa).

Fourth column: Nine white guys, one Asian guy. Doesn't like anime, little exposure to video games, hates K-pop.

It's not a coincidence that the third girl and I had a few more Asian men on our list due to exposure to Asian media, which is obviously full of Asian celebrities.

From this, I'm saying that a large part of AA females' attraction to white men has a lot to do with the lack of Asian men in American media. Second girl is actually a big fan of Ki Hong Lee. Imagine if we had dozens of Ki Hong Lees. I bet that could break some Asian guys into her Top 10 list.

So yeah, the only way for my friends and I to get more Asian male celebrities on our Top 10 Celebs lists is to actually get more Asian males into Hollywood. Maybe it's a lost cause for some AF who have already heavily internalized racism, but leave it for the next generation.

Hope this was interesting to y'all.

Edit #2: Also, we're all 16 or 17 years old if that matters. I believe I had Louis Tomlinson on my list at some point and second + third girl had Harry Styles on theirs at some point, too...yeeeeaaah.

[–]paohana 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 23時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]tamallamaluv 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 23時間前 (2子コメント)

Yeah, we noticed the absence of black guys too. Fourth girl had Alfred Enoch on her list at one point, but that's about it.

None of us watch BET, and outside of shows with a primarily black cast, it's hard to find movies/shows starring black males. It seems like they're more visible, but I think that's just because black Americans have their own space like BET, and have a prominent role in shaping American culture. However, it's all really self-contained and none of it is that 'mainstream'. None of us four follow rappers or anything.

So even though it seems like there's a lot more black guys in American media, there's still no black superhero movie, no black guy starring in Teen Wolf, etc.

There's Alfred Enoch, Will Smith, Chris Tucker, Michael B. Jordan, aaand...I really can't name any more off the top of my head.

There's a huge problem with POC representation in American media in general.

[–]EverydayAndy [スコア非表示] 5時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]tamallamaluv [スコア非表示] 57分前 (0子コメント)

[–]xaynie 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 20時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 16時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]asiantemp 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1日前 (7子コメント)

[–]tamallamaluv 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 23時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]asiantemp 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 23時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]xaynie 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 20時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]tamallamaluv 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 19時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]asiantemp 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 16時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 16時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]asiantemp 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 16時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]CallinOutFromMidwest [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (0子コメント)

Good discussion. There's not a ton of AF perspectives in here, so I'm only going to make this one post so we don't drown out our sisters in a sea of testosterone.

Unlike a lot of my brothers, I don't think the majority of the blame for popular perceptions of Asian men actually lies with Hollywood. I actually think the major problem is our education system. From a very young age, children are being taught and socialized to believe that White people are all individuals and should be treated as such, while people of color are collective hiveminds that are products of "their" culture. The end result? Kids grow up thinking and actually perceiving colored minorities as non-people, as pointed out by several scientific studies in a recent post by /u/ipiranga. Schools in this country are basically teaching the racial identity and history equivalent of Intelligent Design, and all our Asian brothers and sisters are sitting in those same classrooms, being socialized to think like one of them. No wonder self-hatred is so rampant. You'll notice that those who defend WMAF often decry "Asian men" and "misogynist/patriarchal culture" like we're all the same, while White men are praised as great "individuals" who they just happened to fall in love with. That's the power of education. There's a reason why fascist and despotic governments have things called "re-education" camps. The media's purpose is simply to reinforce what's already been taught.

If we really want to break the vicious cycle, we have to teach our kids better -- about society, about history, and about their own racial identity, not just their ethnic heritage but also what it means for them in Western society. Children learn attitudes about race at home, and 1 out of 4 have deeply entrenched ideas about race as early as age 4. We cannot wait until they grow up and attend ethnic studies courses in college, we have to have our version of The Talk. That's the only way we'll ever see the gender divide bridged too. It ain't about policing your preferences, it's about the difference between blind and informed consent. Just like buying a car at a used car lot, we wanna make sure you get the Carfax report before hopping into that gleaming Ford Taurus. You're free to still buy after you learn the history of accidents and manufacturer defects behind it, but at least you'll have made a conscious decision and not just bought it because of an overly pushy salesman. That seems to me to be the ultimate expression of "free choice".

[–]alwaysasian 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント 22時間前* (18子コメント)

A lot of AMs seem to criticize AFs for not examining internalized racism. (I'm relatively new to this conflict, but it seems to be a trend at least in AA subs on reddit.) What seems not that acknowledged is AMs' male privilege and the fact that many AMs appear not even to realize they have it.

You can argue that this is only marginally relevant, but I think that if AMs are going to criticize AFs for not examining their internal biases, AMs should at least acknowledge their own male privilege.

For me this is important for two reasons: (1) WM targeting AF is not a "positive thing" unless you completely ignore the harassment, assault, and otherwise dehumanizing attitudes and behavior that AFs get subjected to because of getting targeted.

I, as an AF, am not even interested in WM anymore. But that doesn't in the least change how much I get harassed and creepered while in public spaces. I'm not talking about getting hit on by datable men when I'm trying to date. I'm talking about how creepered I get every day while engaged in regular activities like walking and taking the subway. Yes, all women get it, but I guarantee you a really large fraction of what AFs get is due to race.

(2) If AM realize how much being male insulates them from the horrendous negative effects of being female (Asian or not), they might (a) first, stop being as jealous of how AF "have it better" or whatever, because no, it is not better. (b) If AMs aren't able or willing to acknowledge male privilege, it will prevent them from being taken seriously fully by women.

Off the top of my head, though I'm sure there are plenty more:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/05/06/us/ap-us-pediatrician-slain.html?_r=0

https://www.reddit.com/r/asianamerican/comments/3bmwjx/a_wall_street_wolf_a_swedish_model_and_a_lurid_18/? - the point is not the article but WTF is going on in the comments?

Constant harassment and threat of sexual assault is only part of what male privilege insulates men from.

Edit: I felt funny to begin with about using this comment to apologize about my comment in that /r/asiantwox thread that got removed. Edited this comment to remove the apology. I'll avoid elaborating right now. Main point of this comment is the same.

[–]fembot12 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 20時間前 (4子コメント)

[–]alwaysasian 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 19時間前* (1子コメント)

Yes. Again, I'm sort of new to the conversation, but if anyone is implying "that's what you get"... hello, fetishization is not a result of internalized racism. That would be called victim-blaming.

There's a reason internalized racism is called "internalized racism." Because it came from the outside!

White people invented racism!

Fetishization of AFs originated from white people, and originates from white people.

No matter how much AFs externalize internalized racism, there will still be racist white people and fetishization of AFs. I'm not saying the problem can't lessen due to resistance from AFs, but we must remember where it came from.

Even if AFs' internalized racism feeds back into how WM act ("I'm not saying it can't lessen due to resistance from AFs"), white people still invented the racism to begin with!

No matter how much we take responsibility for our own actions and try to externalize internalized racism, racism will never go away fully unless white people take responsibility for it and fix it.

notanotherlousasian made this point, as have other people, but I'm repeating it because I agree.

[–]EverydayAndy [スコア非表示] 5時間前 (0子コメント)

I looked at the comments of that article, and I think you changed my mind about male privilege, or at least got me thinking.

Anyways, I agree, hate the sin, not the sinner. I just want to express that for many Asian men, it's not easy. When an Asian girl you thought was a friend openly jokes about Asian male stereotypes, or when your sister, cousin, or even mother only loves white guys...that cuts so deeply into your sense of self worth. It's never an excuse for attacking AF, but that is the reason. Just as there's no excuse for hating Asian men, but there are the reasons (white media) that need to be addressed.

It's very personal for many Asian men, but we need to look at the bigger picture. It's almost too perfect for white guys: screw over Asian guys, but have the scapegoat be Asian women. Hopefully more people see the real culprit.

[–]SmiffnWessnWELCOME TO ERF 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 14時間前 (1子コメント)

There is too much of a "that's what you get" mentality from AM when considering AF issues (the implication being fetishization is what you get for having internalized racism/self hatred and dating white men).

How many Asian men do you think have this sentiment? In my SoCal bubble, with my few dozen Asian male friends that are aware of how the deck is stacked against Asian men (even in a place where there's a lot of Asians), I don't know any Asian men that believe AF's deserve violence or creepy dudes stalking them because some AF's only go White/Non-Asian.

Are you going by what you see on the internet or in real life? The internet's really the only place I've seen it and it does tend to make the vocal minority stick out.

Not saying this line of thinking is right, just wondering how many Asian men really think this way. I agree with you that the "that's what you get" mentalit is wrong.

[–]fembot12 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 14時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 21時間前 (9子コメント)

[–]ShotgunMunroe 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 17時間前* (5子コメント)

I don't think they experience full male privilege.

I agree.. but what we do have is still too much. I've never experienced sexual harassment or assault in my life, I think that's true for most AMs. I know that's definitely not the case for AFs at all. When we talk about hypersexualization and de-masculation, its always in terms of media portrayal. But media and culture is a tentacle of hegemony, and the way AF are depicted as sex starved and white worshiping seeps into the real world and colors WMs perception of every AF he sees.

EDIT: AMs don't have to deal with that at all, and that's what male privilege is. Its the absence of the threat of sexual assault and harassment. Here's the thing though, AMs are effected by this too. We're not subject to sexual assault and harrassment, but we are subject to plain ol' assault and harrassment. I doubt there's any research out there but I have a suspicion that there's a link between the amount and severity of sexual attention that AFs get and the amount of aggression and animosity AMs face in an urban setting. In the end we're all seen as easy targets for them. AFs have to deal with the added sexual dimension of it, since we don't have to deal with that, it is to reiterate is male privilege.

[–]alwaysasian 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 16時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 13時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]aznsense [スコア非表示] 8時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]asiantemp 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 16時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 13時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]alwaysasian 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 20時間前 (0子コメント)

コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

[–]asiantemp 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 15時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]SmiffnWessnWELCOME TO ERF 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 14時間前 (1子コメント)

...if AMs are going to criticize AFs for not examining their internal biases, AMs should at least acknowledge their own male privilege.

I'm going to assume you're not talking specifically about something called "Asian male privilege". Whether we're talking about dating or careers, there's no privilege that can be associated with being an Asian male.

Do you mean the fact that men of any race generally don't get harassed as much as women of any race? Not sure what that has to do with one's internal biases caused by their environment, or why AM's have to acknowledge that women in general have it tougher than men in general before we can talk about internal biases.

But I'm guessing you mean that AF's have it even tougher than women of other races in terms of harassment? I think the first step to examining that is to examine non-Asian male's reasons for fetishizing Asian women. And we can also look at the many Asian women who have "White guys only" or "No Asian men" on their dating profiles. I really think that the answer to Asian women "getting creppered every day" enigma lies somewhere there and not because Asian males don't acknowledge our male privilege.

Don't get me wrong, I'll stand by my sisters when you protest against yellow fever or violence targeting Asian women. Just not the ones that have "White guys only" or "No Asian men" on their dating profiles. Not because I think they have violence or harassment coming to them, but because I don't want to associate myself with anyone who thinks I'm inferior or less of a man than White guys or other non-Asian men.

コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

[–]fembot12 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 22時間前 (2子コメント)

I had a question for AF's out of curiosity. Please let me know if it's completely off base and I'll remove it. I'm AM and one of the main issues we face is emasculation. Even though the cause of the emasculation is external, I believe emasculation isn't just about how others view us but how we view ourselves. In other words, because of the perception of being less masculine our entire lives, some number of us have BECOME less masculine which can fuel further stereotyping. An issue that is important that I'm not addressing here is how masculinity is measured in the first place (whether it's western ideals or not).

So in terms of AF side of things, I believe it's well documented that AF have been hypersexualized in our society. My question is have any AF thought about whether this hypersexualization isn't just a perception issue but that it has fundamentally changed their behaviour. If so, have you considered trying to "reverse" this behaviour in any way (much the same way AM seek to act more masculine to fight emasculation). I think this issue may be important because there is a line of research that talks about the benefits of "internally defined conceptualizations" of racial identity over identity based on "external perceptions of a racial group" Source.

[–]xaynie 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 20時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]ngxp 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1日前 (6子コメント)

[–]asiantemp 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 1日前 (5子コメント)

[–]xaynie 14ポイント15ポイント16ポイント 1日前 (4子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

[–]asiantemp 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 1日前 (1子コメント)

That's because of the justified amount of distrust on both sides.

For example, remember when the whole Phil Yu vs. Lela Lee thing broke out, about "Angry Asian Man" vs. "Asian Little Girls?" In one of the disclosed emails, Lela Lee made a comment about how Phil Yu was probably some spoiled Confucian "boy king" in an Asian family. That set off another tangential firestorm based on gender issues.

But you know what the real kicker is? Lela Lee is herself married to an Asian guy! She's also very vocal about Asian American issues and uses art to bring attention to those issues. As such, she should be one of the most valued and important allies to Asian men in this fight. Yet people pounced on that one admittedly bizarre comment, including me. I got the sense that this was yet another Asian Man vs. Asian Woman showdown in America.

Was Lela Lee right to paint Phil Yu as some kind of stereotypical Asian male chauvinist? Were those who attacked her statement right in assuming that she had some issues with Asian men?

In both instances, no. But based on the tensions in our community, you can probably see why both sides reacted the way that they did.

Basically, my point is that if an AF or AM is attacked by the other side, both sides need to make gestures to bridge that gulf of distrust that already exists. We shouldn't just throw our hands up and give up at the first sign of friction (not that I'm accusing you of this).

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 15時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]ProfitFallsHalf Fil-Am 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1日前* (56子コメント)

I take issue with the practice of spinning the concept of AFWM (and really, most problems that affect Asian women) into an Asian Male issue. Of particular problematic nature is the often-brought up event of the War Brides act. These were events that particularly victimized women in an actual, government sanctioned, institutional way. However, whenever I have seen this brought up, the voice is never in support of the Asian women victimized by these societal practices, and antagonist to the White men who instituted these practices in the first place. They are spun for the benefit of the progression of men, or they are used to attack women. "War bride" is a common term used to attack Asian women.

I'm an Asian man, I can take a picture right now to prove it, I've heard "I don't date Asians" more times than I care to remember. But attacking women, no matter how indoctrinated I might think they are, by bringing up institutions that took advantage of the impoverished state of their home countries to be taken as sexual playthings by invading white soldiers, is ridiculous. Asian women did not derive benefit from these practices, indeed they have faced substantial image problems and stereotyping through the years because of them.

[–]countercom2 15ポイント16ポイント17ポイント 1日前* (8子コメント)

That's a silly deflection. He/she is saying that these pairings are artificially manufactured by racist media that hypersexualizes af and castrates am, puts out propaganda about am being evil, the Vietnam War was one of the most viscious, racist, and sadistic wars - an act of genocide - yet what is the world shown? Miss Saigon where these white serial raping psychopaths are portrayed as heroes to liberate af from "evil" am. That's social engineering.

don't put words into the poster's mouth.

The act of telling af to becareful of wm is done out of part jealousy and love. Their af/wm divorce rates are 387% higher than af/am pairings, wm have raped and killed more af than am in America and Canada. wm are the ones we should all be careful of.

You are doing a disservice to the community by obfuscating and deflecting from the real issue - racist white supremacy.

[+]ProfitFallsHalf Fil-Am スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7ポイント-6ポイント-5ポイント 1日前 (7子コメント)

[–]countercom2 12ポイント13ポイント14ポイント 1日前 (6子コメント)

[–]ProfitFallsHalf Fil-Am -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 1日前 (5子コメント)

It's quite difficult to support af when they're harming themselves by falling victim to wolves in sheep's clothing It's like you're trying to save a drug addict but they keep shooting up. You're telling me I should support her drug addiction even though it's killing her.

And the attacks finally come out.

would you prefer to blame Asian men for why Af are portrayed as easy whores on tv shows and films?

Actually I JUST blamed white men for that, next.

Would you prefer to blame Asian men for the gang rapes that af suffered by white "Christian" gentlemen?

Do you people actually read my posts or do you just consider anything that is not explicitly supportive of your ends an attack? Pretty ironic considering that "drug addict" metaphor you had up there. I'm pretty sure I made it clear that we should blame white men instead of Asian people for this type of bile.

[–][削除されました] 1日前* (4子コメント)

[deleted]

[–]ProfitFallsHalf Fil-Am -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 1日前* (2子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 14時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]countercom2 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 14時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]chinglishese[M] 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

[–]farpastinfinity 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 11時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]neonfuzion 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1日前* (22子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 13時間前 (1子コメント)

His comment is messy and his tone is abrasive, and he focuses on the past. But his bottom line is focusing on AF needs, and I'm here for that. There's a lot of confusion in this thread regarding the myriad manifestations of white supremacy. We need support for those focusing on the needs of our people, both male and female. Can we fucking stop with the focus on the past? I know history is the key to the present but most of us who are really engaging with this conversation are educated about AA history already. We need to keep moving forward and attack the hydra not just the heads. We're getting derailed by focusing on this that and the other manifestation of the issue by nitpicking stats. "Hey, A has a 32% higher rate of occurrence than B, so B isn't part of the problem." FUCK NO. IT'S ALL PART OF IT. WHITE SUPREMACY AIN'T THAT SIMPLE. We all experience it in different ways depending on our gender, upbringing, social circles, and geographical location.

[–]neonfuzion 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 11時間前 (0子コメント)

I'm going to quote Disciple888.

Your security and your livelihood is based on trust, the trust between a master and his dog. When they call you smart, it's the way they would call their pet Pomeranian smart. "Oh, so smart, look how quickly Fido learns to shake! Look how good you are at math!" We walk on the edge of a precipice every day, and don't even know it. Brothers and sisters, you only think they are on your side because you've given them your balls, attended their re-education camps, and opened your legs to them. If you dare to see what happens as soon as a brother dares to speak out against them, or a sister dares to scorn one of their advances ; first, they will whitesplain to you, evangelize their religion of Racism.

But it seems everyone in the comments section has ignored this

[+]ProfitFallsHalf Fil-Am スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 1日前 (19子コメント)

[–]alex-zhengGuess? 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 1日前 (1子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

[–]neonfuzion 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1日前* (16子コメント)

I’m hoping that we as an AA community can bridge the gap that exists between AMs and AFs and unite to fight the pervasive attitude of white supremacy several of us have been looking critically at the reasons for AFs and AMs preferring white partners above other races including Asians. Ideas on how to overcome generations of bitterness and hurt on both sides and stop allowing it to distract us as a community from the real problem? What are constructive ways we can end this “house divided” situation?

I'm trying to see how your comment engages with /u/notanotheraloudasian comment. So far, I fail to see what it has to do with what she said.

Your the only one that wants to create a divide. I actually want to talk about how AA can work with each other . No one said anything about AF/AM

[+]ProfitFallsHalf Fil-Am スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 1日前 (15子コメント)

[–]fembot12 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 1日前 (14子コメント)

[–]ProfitFallsHalf Fil-Am -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 1日前 (13子コメント)

[–]fembot12 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 1日前 (7子コメント)

コメントをもっと表示する (7 返事)

[–]neonfuzion 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1日前 (2子コメント)

コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

[–]EverydayAndy [スコア非表示] 42分前 (1子コメント)

[–]ProfitFallsHalf Fil-Am [スコア非表示] 20分前 (0子コメント)

[–]asiantemp 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1日前 (12子コメント)

I take issue with the practice of spinning the concept of AFWM (and really, most problems that affect Asian women) into an Asian Male issue.

It is an Asian male issue when society pretty much limits the majority of us to only Asian women as partners, and some of these Asian women not only spurn us for prejudiced reasons but also badmouth us in front of non-Asian women to worsen our already hindered chances of dating/marrying outside our race (which we have to do when significant numbers of Asian women refuse to be with Asian men).

Not saying that all Asian women do this. I am saying that if some do it, it automatically makes this an Asian men's issue as well because our welfare is directly affected.

If Asian men could just as easily date outside our race, then this would indeed be much more outside of our zone of interests.

[+]ProfitFallsHalf Fil-Am スコアが基準値未満のコメント-8ポイント-7ポイント-6ポイント 1日前 (11子コメント)

It is an Asian male issue when society pretty much limits the majority of us to only Asian women as partners

Not really, there is correlation but no causation. The prevalence of AFWM in white supremacist media causes direct, significant image problems to Asian women, that they are submissive, that they are weak etc. It causes this because they are the ones portrayed this way. White media also has given significant image problems to Asian males, that they are weak, that they are submissive, like Ken Jeong and Bobby Lee or whatever Asian male actor you might want to attack for being "stereotypical". This sucks, and it is unfortunately often attached to media with AFWM as a trite "cuckold" jab at Asian males by White males. However, to connect AFWM, to those image problems even absent of the latter takes significant assumptions, especially if the argument that AFWM is directly damaging to Asian Males. This is perfectly illustrated in the remainder of your opening sentence.

Not saying that all Asian women do this. I am saying that if some do it, it automatically makes this an Asian men's issue as well because our welfare is directly affected.

This issue hardly seems as pressing as you're making it seem, seeing as how only about 22.2% of Asian women are possibly doing this according to https://www.dropbox.com/s/0i2pcpns4e9vwi3/hwang2013.pdf?dl=0

If Asian men could just as easily date outside our race, then this would indeed be much more outside of our zone of interests.

I'm not saying AFWM should be outside your field of interests. But when bringing up institutions that primarily victimize Asian women, it would behoove Asian men to give priority to that, since it seems like there are direct connections to rape, domestic violence, and murder of their sisters.

But no, instead the majority of the arguments are something along the lines of "our street Is fulla spikes while AF steet is full of flowers." Arguments primarily founded upon a fundamental misunderstanding of the benefit of dating attraction to men and women.

[–]asiantemp 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 1日前 (8子コメント)

[–]ProfitFallsHalf Fil-Am -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 1日前 (6子コメント)

AFWM pairings that are spurred by prejudicial beliefs can BOTH be detrimental to Asian women and Asian men.

Then prove it, because I have not seen anything compelling regarding this connection. The issue I see here is the prejudicial beliefs, not the pairing of AFWM. If you're going to claim that these systems are dialectical (that these systems feed into eachother), that's fine, but I'm going to need something more concrete, since this still does not validate attacks on such asian women. It also does not validate the co-opting of asian female struggle that has resulted in their rape, abuse and murder, as a reason that Asian men can't date as well as other men.

That is a huge percentage when you consider that a lot of Asian guys can't just easily date/marry outside our race.

That is not the issue, your argument rested upon the fact that Asian women are not only beneficiaries but perpetrators of a racist system. Enough to make generalizations that do not take into account the sheer minority of Asian women who actually do this. That's shitty no matter how you spin it, our dating prospects be damned.

[–]asiantemp 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1日前 (5子コメント)

[+]ProfitFallsHalf Fil-Am スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 1日前 (4子コメント)

[–]asiantemp 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1日前 (3子コメント)

コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

[–][削除されました] 1日前* (1子コメント)

[deleted]

[–]ProfitFallsHalf Fil-Am -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

[–]xaynie 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 20時間前 (7子コメント)

[–]EverydayAndy [スコア非表示] 4時間前 (5子コメント)

[–]xaynie [スコア非表示] 3時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]ProfitFallsHalf Fil-Am [スコア非表示] 2時間前* (0子コメント)

[–]EverydayAndy [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (1子コメント)

コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

[–]ProfitFallsHalf Fil-Am -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 20時間前 (0子コメント)

コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

[–]ShotgunMunroe 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 16時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]notanotherloudasianMade in the USA, materials imported from HK 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 16時間前 (1子コメント)

I have a reaction. I'm mildly ashamed of it. I wouldn't call it a gut reaction--I learned it after seeing the way some AMs in such relationships soaked up the praise and the high-fives from other AMs, and the way AMs considered such guys "the man."

I was disgusted and insulted. That's if I take it personally. Now I've learned not to see that as a negative reflection on AF desirability and more as an indicator of white supremacy and how we've internalized it. One of the most popular couples in my friend group is a AMWF couple, and while I still find some of our mutual friends' behavior towards the AM annoying, I realize where it's coming from. Also they're a very sweet couple, what can I say. I'm closer to the girl and she's hot and adorable and she's so happy--as a friend, I really am not even mad.

Idk about trolling, I've never heard of it. How does that even happen? Nevermind, I don't want to know, and I don't think it would help this discussion. Lol.

[–]ShotgunMunroe 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 15時間前 (0子コメント)

[–][削除されました] 1日前 (2子コメント)

[deleted]

[–]metsukenJeet Kune Flowin'[M] 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

asianamerican

調停者

I have a proposal for AF who are dating white men.

"What am I supposed to do?"

Why this is great:

Obviously, you want Asian men to make a similar gesture.