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DISCUSSION[Discussion] Dear programmers, sociologists, psychologists, linguists, data scientists, cryptographers, and free speech/open source enthusiasts: Let's build a platform that is 100% impervious to censorship (self.KotakuInAction)

HistoryOfGamerHatred が 投稿

As GamerGate continues to demonstrate to the world that the SJW emperors have no clothes (especially after today) the endgame is rapidly upon us as they will seek escalation into international banning, criminalization, and censorship of anything that isn't pro-narrative.

Therefore, we should begin the discussion, evaluation, and education of how to build and implement a collaboration network that cannot be targeted by SJW temper tantrums. That means a system of communication where:

  • The server costs can be covered easily (BitCoin mining and arbitrage mechanics come to mind)
  • The server income to cover costs cannot be targeted by coordinated whining to payment services.
  • A server that exists in international space or low legal risk areas to minimize lawfare attempts to shut it down.
  • Force anonymous participation mechanics
  • Modern encryption to minimize MITM attacks
  • Decentralized moderation so that external ideologies cannot corrupt a handful of infinite power moderators.
  • A thorough understanding of user psychology to create a UX that promotes discussion and idea sharing while deterring flame wars.
  • Language analysis to make idea sharing more viral than simplistic, clickbait memes.
  • An incentive system that rewards filter bubble destruction while punishing ideological calcification
  • Content inspection and reaction tools for admins to quickly respond to lawfare false flags.
  • Honeypot mechanics so that paid trolls, hired organizations, corporate PR teams, and government agencies can be quickly detected and made public.
  • Has a profit model so that it can compete and eventually replace non-revenue SJW champions Tumblr and Twitter.

In preparation for this endgame, I have created the subreddit r/IdeasOverIdeology to explore ways to build such a platform.

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[–]Meowsticgoesnya0018-1877-0794 3DS Friend code, remember to give me yours 22ポイント23ポイント  (4子コメント)

Let's be honest here.

We need some sort of removal system removal to clear out things like child porn or DMCA'd content. You're also going to have to deal with spam and bots in some way or your real users will leave. Whoever is in charge of doing that can always abuse their power if they wanted to.

You can't make a site where censorship of ideas is impossible due to that, there's always going to have to be a trust aspect with the owner/admins, but you could at least make one where it's hard if not impossible for normal users to do so by not letting user mods.

[–]HistoryOfGamerHatred[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

  • Legal compliance across the globe is a challenge.
  • You cannot prevent negative content, and reactionary bans result in a a culture of paranoia for the administrators. Instead, we should develop the means to detect and predict behavior. Posting negative content is not random and the behavior that determines it is not mysterious. These actions can be predicted statistically without human intervention.

[–]JamesMean 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

DMCA'd content

Can't you just ignore those if you don't live in the US? CP on the other hand should be banned immediately.

[–]TurielD 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

So what constitutes CP? What would we do if some Afghani says his 'free speech' rights are being infringed because he can't share pictures of his 15-year-old wife?

The problem with free speech is always the seemingly obvious things that need to be banned... you have to draw a line, but where that line goes isn't going to be nearly as obvious as the concept.

Let's say we solve that. Once the line is there, who enforces it? How much lee-way do they have to determine if something actually breaks some law? Is suspicion enough? Must it be proven to be an underage person in CP? Can't be done. You have to somehow trust the enforcer to make a reasonable judgement... and that's where things tend to go off the rails. Reddit couldn't handle that, that's why Jailbait had to go.

[–]fae_lai 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

slippery slope. if you have a mechanism to ban any sort of content with human input on the application of method to content, it can be misapplied to other things. and unscrupulous people will.

if you have a CP ban button where users flag things as CP. then people of various ideologies will false flag things they disaggree with. same thing as the DMCA.

(to op)

Decentralized moderation so that external ideologies cannot corrupt a handful of infinite power moderators.

invallidating point. if you have moderators, you have humans with power to censor. argument is invallid and dishonest.

... if people were to not be hypocrites and would present tenable advocacy of possible mechanisms, through a lack of contradiction, i might help. but people saying they want something then advocate something which undermines the premise they claimed to want, just no.

if you want consistent censorship based purely on algorythms, that is fine. but it isn't free speech. but if you give people a tool the will use it even without the pretence of the provision, unless you can enforce consequences.

[–][削除されました]  (8子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]HistoryOfGamerHatred[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

    • Reading the Ethereum white paper now. Good recommendation.
    • There might be ways to promote and minimize self-identification via behavior analysis, which is why I'm seeking the input of the softer sciences on this as well..
    • The public reputation system is something that requires some careful analysis. Hugboxes are, by default, already penalized by their very structure. The ought to exist to contain the diehards and give them a false sense of security. However, when those diehards are given outsized power to spread their gospel others through force and social engineering, I would like a mechanism to nullify that, and I believe that visualizing the opportunity cost of hugbox participation as soon as you join one will do just that. It's definitely worthy of a more in-depth conversation, one you seem capable of having. :D :D :D
    • The profit motive is essential, not to those who built the system, but to those who use it. I have seen P2P and GPG and Tor and all other decentralized efforts come under attack. Social media is nothing more than a gigantic honey pot for Statsi 2.0, wrapped up on modern advertising parlance and imagery. This allowed anti-decentralization efforts to collect tremendous amounts of data about human behavior online, which in turn, helped in their efforts to crush decentralized platforms. Eschewing profit motive is a folly as profit remains the primary means of organizing humanity on this planet. If profit can be generated for USERS, that is, we when they post, they get paid, then there will be little centralized agents can do to undermine it, short of engaging in full-blow intentional currency collapse. In fact, the profit mechanism will motivate people to embrace more complex systems of security. In short, people gave up their privacy for fake currency, I wish to pay them real currency to take that privacy back.

    [–][削除されました]  (6子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–]HistoryOfGamerHatred[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

      • I am familiar with the susceptibility of anonymity to metadata analysis, but I am also familiar with techniques that increase the cost of metadata analysis per operation. Knowing what I know about the profitability of ad exchange networks, I know for a fact that simple user techniques can dramatically increase the cost of metadata collection and analysis. If we can't stop the collection, we can make them pay out the nose for it.
      • I am skeptical of up/down systems in general. I find that they only transmit ideas that have a low risk-to-posturing ratio. These are the kinds of systems end up giving unequal amounts of social influence to SJWs, which is further reinvested into additional gaming of the up/down system. If an idea sounds good and appears good and requires minimal risk, it will easily find its way to the top. But if that idea carries risk, then it will not end up transmitting. I find this abhorrent as it stifles meaningful communication and promotes the ideological isolation that plagues us today.
      • Hugboxes cannot be eliminated, but their costs can no longer remain hidden. The price of hugbox participation is ideological calcification, and the full price of that calcification has to be revealed. Contemporary idea systems rely on the attention economy, where people promote what makes them look the best in accordance to external mainstream ideologies. Fleeting fame is the reward for appealing to mob mechanics. However, an idea system has to have risk mitigation against mob mechanics as well. One of those risk mitigation tools is a hugbox, but it is too stern and too natural a response. More tools to mitigate the risk of mob response WITHOUT resulting in spirals of silence that destroy idea transmission. "Ideas over ideology" means exactly that; the transmission of ideas without the threat of ideology.
      • I agree that reducing imbalances of user influence are key. Even with decentralization of moderation, charismatic entities can still fall victim to ideology and coordinate their influence on its behalf. In terms of payment, I was thinking more along the lines of "evolution a discussion" to be the primary way to "mine" the blockchain. As robust discussion happens, new blocks are mined and those participating get rewarded. With enough rewards, they can promote their ideas.
      • PeerCoin implements inflation tactics that detract hoarding (I believe it's at 1% destruction at transaction time?) and I believe the same concept can be applied to deter what I would call "social hording"; As certain topics become more and more popular, it can cost more to participate in those discussions, therefore, hoarding rewards until you can maximize conversation by piggybacking off of the next meme becomes a much more riskier strategy.

      [–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

      [deleted]

        [–]HistoryOfGamerHatred[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

        I will address your points, but first:

        https://slimgur.com/images/2015/07/03/7675fc373b7cdee48a35c5c78d3feff2.png

        Thoughts?

        [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

        [deleted]

          [–]HistoryOfGamerHatred[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

          For presentation reasons, yes, a slides would be better.

          Now applying this chart to what we have been discussion, about how best to allow ideas to spread, understanding how each step of the process can be attacked his vital to minimizing the attack surface. Do you see any mistakes with the summary of the attack surface?

          https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/3c4wyu/censorship_modern_censorship_how_sjws_manufacture/

          [–]IAmTheSysGen 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

          We could make a P2P clone. People have their usernames confirmed using GPG signatures. You subscribe to a blockchain, which is basically an platform for moderation. Upvoting is made by the account broadcasting messages encrypted using the public key of the upvoter, and downvotes work using combinatory data from the blockchains you accept, using public key cryptography. This means no servers, so no costs, no risk for them to be took down, fully encrypted end-to-end, everyone is the server.

          Banning is made by the blockchains you subbed to. Subreddits will simply be managed using a tag in the message. Open API, so that everyone can make it's client.

          Blockchains are managed using the same mechanics, except they are moderated and centralised.

          No need for money, no corruption possible, extremely fast mechanics. Blockchains can ultimatey host servers, but they are not obligatory. Everyone keeps a copy of their messages in their HDD, and if you lose your private key, you are fucked. Account deletions will be made by revoking you public key using a rovoke certificate. This is a tested strategy, see BitTorrent.

          [–]HistoryOfGamerHatred[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

          I have a few problems with up-down a theory of auto-regulation, but can you elaborate on how voting works on a blockchain?

          [–]IAmTheSysGen 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Basically, everyone posts the message tha X was upvoted by Y to everyone they know. To confirm that this is not a lie, every peer will randomly send to the upvoter a message ecrypted using Ys public key, so that if Y says yes, you are sure that Y really upvoted.

          [–]HistoryOfGamerHatred[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I see. Thanks for the clarification.

          [–]GaussDragon 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I'm all ears. I'll join the discussion and see what I can do to help.

          [–]mnemosyne-0000#BotYourShield 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Archive links for this post:

          I am Mnemosyne, goddess of memory. I remember so you don't have to.

          [–]JoeDonJackson 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I like it

          [–]MT6Anime 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

          4chan

          [–]Flecktorn 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          yes good goy shill for moot

          [–]KRosen333More like KRockin' 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

          This will be 100% weak to shitposting

          [–]HistoryOfGamerHatred[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Not if planned correctly. If you explore the dependencies of shitposting, you'll noticed its a key part of an "attention economy", which, like all systems of exchange, has weaknesses.

          [–]RedStarDawn 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          The only thing impervious to censorship (for now) is your own mind.

          [–]mnemosyne-0000#BotYourShield 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Archive links for this discussion:

          I am Mnemosyne, goddess of memory. I remember so you don't have to.

          [–]NubnubnubNubbin -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

          It's called Usenet and it has been around longer than most of you (and many of your parents) have been alive.

          [–]HistoryOfGamerHatred[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Elaborate :D

          [–]DoctorBallsack 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          and look how successful it is!

          [–]mycroftxxx42 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          This spot seems like the best place to mention this article: On Port 80.

          Can anyone come up with a unhosted/pure-JS NNTP client? That seems like a good starting place.

          [–]stonemirror -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

          NOT UR PRIVATE CONTRACTOR.

          [–]HistoryOfGamerHatred[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

          How about private consultant? :D