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The EU just told Greece Give us €50 Billion of real assets, Islands, monuments, etc. And we will give Euros (That they make from thin air at the rate of €60B per month) (self.Bitcoin)

TheHavelock が 投稿

The Greek people should be outraged if their Government approves this. It would prove that their Prime Minister Tsipras is just a shill for the ECB and does not represent the Greek people who voted NO to the EU. To exchange Greek land and other assets and in return receive more debt based currencies to add to a debt they can't ever repay is suicide. #ThisIsACoup. Bitcoin was started to help the people avoid Government controls over personal capital. The Genesis Block was released as the headlines across the world stated that Merkel bailed out the banks. Now 6 years later, Merkel demands the Greek's people property in return for more control by a group that the Greeks never elected or appointed. How did the world first democracy gave up their sovereignty for "economic security". We should all hope that there are still some free Greeks in Greece that will challenge this and would once again call to an end of their Debt based economy.

Edit: source http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/13/athens-and-eurozone-agree-bailout-deal-for-greece

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[–]bitpotluck 135ポイント136ポイント  (24子コメント)

Who needs tanks when you have banks.

[–]dieyoung 19ポイント20ポイント  (4子コメント)

Banks n tanks

[–]Bitcoinopoly 26ポイント27ポイント  (0子コメント)

Who needs land, food, and water when you could have slips of paper? The choice is clear: Clearasil.

[–]Nooku 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've already been saying this about banks for a very very very long time:

It is a coup.

[–]BinaryResult 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

Somebody put this on a tshirt. Any aspiring artists want to do a graphic? I have $5 on it for decent design (thinking banksy style).

[–]Throwahoymatie -1ポイント0ポイント  (11子コメント)

Who needs tanks when you have a population of gullible socialists who vote for bigger and bigger government?

[–]cflag 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Quite the contrary, this merely shows that voting is completely pointless. People will be faced with everything they are willing to put up with.

[–]ThomasVeil 8ポイント9ポイント  (9子コメント)

Right, why didn't they go for the glorious option of right wing capitalists - who vote for bigger bank bailouts and save the money on the population.

[–]DatBuridansAss 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

cronyists*

[–]xpiqu 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Don't keep calm, it's time to wake up"

thisisacoup

[–]crawlingfasta 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

hey they wouldn't be ultra rich if they didn't look out for the best interests of the working man. Right?

[–]dieyoung 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Capitalism

Bank bailouts

One of these things is not like the other...

[–]jeanduluoz -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

dude wtf is a capitalist? Capitalism isn't an ideology, it's just a law of nature determining how assets are allocated. That's like saying I'm a gravityist because i believe mass allocates itself a certain way.

Bank bailouts have nothing to do with capitalism. It's an artificial political structure that affects people's valuation of efficient capital allocation

[–]xpiqu 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Capitalism isn't an ideology

Yes it is and it's not a law of nature, it's a man made law and it currently resembles natural law, survival if the fittest, everything for ourselves and nothing for other people, the vile maxim of the masters of mankind ... not a law human civilization should be based on, on the contrary I would say. And certainly not in the spirit of a decentralized P2P network like Bitcoin.

[–]jjwspencer 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Oh dear. Full on rant there. Capitalism is how humans behave when they enjoy property rights and freedom under the law. A state I consider more natural than breathing but which is sadly denied to millions on this planet.

Secondly capitalism only works when mutually agreed exchange takes place. Both sides of a deal have to be winners else there would be no deal. These freedoms are exactly what the blockchain should facilitate and support.

[–]xpiqu 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly. You describe true capitalism. Sadly, today nobody lives in a true capitalism. It's not allowed to function that way because of plutocracy, socializing debts and capitalizing gains.

[–]joewaffle1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Tanks? I'm excited, where are the tanks?

[–]G1lius 80ポイント81ポイント  (36子コメント)

Could you give a source for "islands, monuments, etc" ?

They also don't "give" it to the EU. It's theirs, but if they want to do something with it, it has to go through Europe first.

Greek people also didn't vote 'no' to the EU, but 'no' to the EU proposal. Most greeks want to stay in the Euro-zone and EU.

[–]albacore_futures 18ポイント19ポイント  (4子コメント)

There is no source for "islands, monuments, etc" because the deal requires that Greece put $50bn worth of assets into a privatization fund which will either sell those assets or use their income to pay down the Greek debt. Those assets are not yet defined, but Greece has multiple state-owned enterprises (SOEs) including television and railroad companies which are worth a fair bit. Furthermore, because the fund is run by Greeks with the oversight of the Europeans, it stands to reason that the Greeks running the fund would prefer to generate income from their assets than sell them outright.

Basically, the lenders want collateral for the next tranche of lending. That doesn't mean the collateral is going to get sold.

I don't think we're going to see the Parthenon bought by Pizza Hut and rechristened the "Double Stuft Pizzanon with Cinnastix" anytime soon.

[–]TotesMessenger 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)

コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

    [–]Hypo_Critical 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

    edit: really? downvoted for pointing out incorrect facts?

    It goes against the narrative in this subreddit.

    [–]doctor-yes 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yes, remember: Bitcoin can solve all problems and fiat currencies are the root of everything from dental problems to those dirty dishes in your sink that just won't clean themselves. Do not question the narrative.

    [–]evilpumpkin 13ポイント14ポイント  (16子コメント)

    It's theirs,

    or

    but if they want to do something with it, it has to go through Europe first.

    Pick one.

    [–]G1lius 26ポイント27ポイント  (12子コメント)

    It's like a multisig. Greece owns 2 of the 3 keys, Europe 1 key.

    If they want to make a transaction they need their signature and Europe's.
    If they really want they can use their 2nd back-up key to make the transaction, but that's going to piss off Europe and it's likely Europe doesn't want to do business with them anymore.

    [–]aletoledo 1ポイント2ポイント  (11子コメント)

    I think what he means is that if you own something alone and then you move to a system where you own it jointly, then it's no longer "yours". For example, if I live alone in an apartment it's mine, but if you move in as a roomate, is it really still mine?

    Plus, if it's mutisig like you suggested and the european central bank decides that it wants to do something on a particular island (e.g. military base), then can Greece really say no?

    [–]G1lius 5ポイント6ポイント  (9子コメント)

    Why wouldn't it be your apartment? You can kick him out, you can sell it, etc.

    Sure they can say no. Besides, like I've pointed out, the agreement has nothing to do with Islands (unless someone can point out a source for that). There's also no European Army, so you're basically talking about a country invading Greece.

    What it comes down to is that Greece has to sell its banks (they are owned by the government) and Europe has to approve the sale.

    [–]aletoledo 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

    Why wouldn't it be your apartment? You can kick him out,

    Well then from his perspective, it's not "his" apartment. To match this to the analogy being discussed, then greece would at some point be able to kick out the the europeans from the island that they "sold". If that was to happen, then it's not really "sold" in a traditional sense.

    There's also no European Army,

    Call it NATO if you prefer.

    Besides, like I've pointed out, the agreement has nothing to do with Islands

    I looked for this too. It seems to just say "assets", so I agree with you that people are making assumptions. I can't imagine what other than real estate the greek government has to sell though.

    What it comes down to is that Greece has to sell its banks (they are owned by the government) and Europe has to approve the sale.

    So are you saying the bank's buildings or do the banks perhaps own islands?

    [–]G1lius 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Well then from his perspective, it's not "his" apartment. To match this to the analogy being discussed, then greece would at some point be able to kick out the the europeans from the island that they "sold". If that was to happen, then it's not really "sold" in a traditional sense.

    To continue the same analogy: if he sells his apartment it's no longer his. However, it's him who decides to sell it.

    There's also no European Army, Call it NATO if you prefer.

    NATO is an alliance, not an army. But either way, it has no use, nobody wants to do it, and there's simply no money for it, because it's technically a Greece army base.

    So are you saying the bank's buildings or do the banks perhaps own islands?

    Banks are companies, companies can be sold. Not sure what's confusing about that?

    [–]Cryptoenthisiast0w0 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Or a refugee camp ala Lampedusa..

    [–]danweber 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Pick one.

    Greece voluntarily entered the Euro. This has both costs and benefits.

    [–]Cryptoenthisiast0w0 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Uh uh! I know This one.. There's a Goat behind one of Them right?

    [–]anti09 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    You might want to look up the definition of a security interest.

    [–]grimeandreason 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    No, they hand it under the control of a Swiss organisation which Schauble himself is director of, who will then control the sales and give the money to other banks as debt payments.

    [–]caveden 64ポイント65ポイント  (38子コメント)

    Do you realize that it's the Greek government that spent more than it had for decades and it's now asking the rest of EU for more and more money?

    Do you realize the EU has no obligation to lend them this money, and demanding some collateral and guarantees is a minimum?

    Anyways, we do agree in one point: the Greek government will never pay its debt. It's a pointless sacrifice of EU taxvictims money. Greece membership in the EU should have been revoked the day it was discovered that the Greek government was cheating on its balance sheets, defrauding all other members of the block.

    [–]timetraveller57 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

    I often hear this 'taxvictims money' argument.

    How many people here actually think that to get money to lend to Greece, euro countries will raise taxes, and THEN have the money to give to Greece (from the taxes)?

    OR

    Will enter xxxx in their computers, paint over it with QE garbage(EU is creating 1+ trillion euro), give some of that money to Greece, and THEN raise taxes on their own citizens. Regardless of the fact that the 'money' has already been created and given.

    [–]Androsynth2 15ポイント16ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Your argument holds no merit whatsoever. Even if the money is printed up by the central bank, moneyprinting serves to reduce the value of Euros presently in circulation. It's robbing value from savers, which makes it effectively a tax that hits only the frugal.

    [–]penny793 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It's robbing value from savers, which makes it effectively a tax that hits only the frugal.

    It hits everyone but is felt most by the poor. Also, the rich have more financial tools and assets that can protect or even increase their wealth whereas the poor just get poorer and their lives get tougher.

    [–]timetraveller57 -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Whereas I do normally agree with you, supply inflation = devaluation.. There is the argument that QE has not caused supply devaluation.

    That it is in fact due to 'how' and 'where' created money is put to use. Though overall, I would sit in your camp if pushed, in that supply inflation does cause devaluation.

    Is it only robbing value if the costs of living goes up? If deflation occurs on the commodity/goods/services level and QE is in existence.. what does this tell us?

    If say, $1 trillion is created and given out via helicopter theory .. well, it would be interesting to see.

    It's robbing value from savers, which makes it effectively a tax that hits only the frugal.

    technically, it robs everyone, whether they are frugal or not.

    [–]Androsynth2 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I agree with everything you said, except:

    technically, it robs everyone, whether they are frugal or not.

    How so? If you're someone who has nothing but debt, currency devaluation is your best friend, because you're repaying a debt with cheaper Euros than you originally borrowed. If you have 0 net worth, your pay probably increases as the devalued currency causes the cost of labor to rise, making it a wash. I would think only savers actually suffer a loss. At least in theory..

    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

      [–]caveden 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Regardless, the sets of "EUR holders" and "EU taxvictims" have such a big intersection that for practical purposes I was equating them.

      But yeah you're probably right, this will likely be payed by EUR holders through inflation.

      [–]dieyoung -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

      Why is the ECB constantly giving them more and more loans? If they are so irresponsible with their money, why is the response from the EU always to just throw more money at the situation? You said it yourself, Greece will never pay back it's debts and everyone knows it, it's no secret. Everyone knows that if they get this money, they'll be back in the same situation soon enough, so why constantly loan money to pay back previously loaned money they can't pay back?

      The answer is because the ECB does not have to put any real capital or assets at risk. They can print as much money as they please and if things go wrong, well, they can just print more. It's all central bankers know. They pretend they are incompetent but they know exactly what they are doing.

      [–]timetraveller57 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Debt prison for the world, its been the plan for a while. You can't create a debt prison world without giving out a stupid amount of loans.

      They pretend they are incompetent but they know exactly what they are doing.

      That.

      They also then get to 'justify' raising taxes and austerity in their own countries.

      [–]dieyoung 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Neo-feudalism in the making.

      [–]caveden 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Yep, pretty much. And all EUR holders pay the bill.

      [–]laz10 -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

      If a bank gives a loan to someone who can't pay it back, who's fault is it?

      Remember a bank leverages other people's money, so it has to be responsible with it. Or shit like this happens

      [–]caveden 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      If a bank gives a loan to someone who can't pay it back, who's fault is it?

      The borrower is stealing the bank's money. He's at fault.

      Remember a bank leverages other people's money, so it has to be responsible with it.

      In this case you simply inverted the creditor/debtor signs from the sentence of above. If the bank borrows my money, it has an obligation to pay it back. If the bank lends it to a socialist government who then defaults, and as a consequence the bank doesn't pay me back, both the government and the bank are at fault. The gov owes the bank, the bank owes me.

      (Isn't all this obvious?)

      EDIT: Perhaps I shouldn't have used a government in the example above. Replace it by a company, individual or whatever. Governments by definition will always commit crimes to pay their debts (they will resort to taxation and/or inflation). By lending to a government, you're in full knowledge lending to an entity which you know will take other people's money to pay you back. You know the interests you earn are payed through theft. The moral implications there are a bit more complicated.

      [–]Froghurt 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      If you knowingly deceive the bank, it's definitely your own fault.

      As a non-Greek European I don't feel like paying for Greek debts yet again.

      [–]dieyoung 49ポイント50ポイント  (33子コメント)

      Standard operating procedure for the IMF and World Bank. Give nations huge funny money loans they know they can never pay back and when it comes down to the due date, they tell them they'll settle for assets that are crucial to the local economies. Greece is the beta test for the western world, and it's starting to look like Tsipras was in their pocket the whole time...

      [–]moopma 20ポイント21ポイント  (9子コメント)

      But why did Tsipras call for the referendum then?

      [–]dieyoung 31ポイント32ポイント  (1子コメント)

      To gain legitimacy and create solidarity. What did the referendum actually do? Did that mean default on the debt? Leave the EU? Go back to the drachma? It was purposefully ambiguous and not defined. Really it meant nothing, legally speaking and it was much more symbolic than anything else.

      Now Tsipras is entertaining the possibility of selling off Greek national treasures? That's an even worse position to be in than before. Very suspicious to me.

      [–]bit- -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Do you not object to EU proposal? [ ] Yes [ ] No

      [–]btcdrak 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Smoke and mirrors.

      [–]jonstern 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

      All part of the master plan. Appear sympathetic to the people's plight, then strike a deal that hurts them. And most won't even realize until years from now.

      [–]KoKansei 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

      He thought they would vote yes.

      Yes, Tsipras is a huge fucking moron and a coward.

      Edit: Source since it's so ridiculous.

      [–]crainbf 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Because he's frankly an idiot and totally botched the negotiations. Of course, that doesn't excuse the appalling looting by Germany and the eurocrats.

      [–]Richy_T 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I don't think there was a way not to botch the negotiations. He is still an idiot though and the Greeks wanted to vote for someone who would promise an impossibility.

      [–]rnicoll 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

      What puzzles me more is he seemed to want a "No" vote: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-01/greece-s-tsipras-calls-for-no-vote-in-july-5-referendum

      [–]coinaday 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Politics is complicated. Maybe he wanted better leverage? Maybe he wanted to be seen to position himself on that side to give credibility, while knowing that the outcome of the vote wouldn't matter?

      [–]Cowboy_Coder 11ポイント12ポイント  (4子コメント)

      Tsipras was in their pocket the whole time...

      Perhaps he's just buying time, expecting that it probably won't pass Greek parliament. Meanwhile the ECB extends liquidity assistance to Greek banks for a few more days/weeks, allowing Greek citizens to withdraw more funds before the banks are officially declared bankrupt.

      [–]dieyoung 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

      That's definitely possible as well, only time will tell I suppose

      [–]BinaryResult 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I thought the condition for assistance was first getting the austerity into law. Would be too late at that point.

      [–]Cowboy_Coder 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      • Greek banks are to be recapitalized by Greek asset fund and Tsipras says the deal protects the stability of the banking system
      • ELA will stay in place all the while that another bailout is in the pipeline, Mizuho’s Peter Chatwell says in e-mailed comments
      • ECB ELA will most likely stay in place until at least Wednesday, pending Greek ability to legislate the list of prior actions, Oxford Economics says in a note

      http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-13/after-deal-heres-whats-next-greece

      [–]hotel_air_freshener 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I agree totally, biding time so people can move funds and getting ready for the currency changeover. The germans (rightfully) wont lend more and the Greeks don't want to lose their culture to repay a bank loan.

      [–]btcfl 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

      True. Read Confessions of an Economic Hitman if you want to understand IMF/World Bank modus operandi

      [–]dieyoung 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Yeah Perkins is great. I recommend his book to everyone here, it's playing out exactly like he outlines.

      [–]shadowofashadow 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I've been trying to explain this to my dad but he just won't beleive it. I showed him Perkins' Economic Hitman, and he even sees stuff like this and somehow he still thinks the IMF is being honest and just trying to help.

      I'm not sure what I can do to get it through to him.

      [–]dieyoung 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

      How about the ex head of the eurogroup and prime minister of Luxembourg and all around scum bag Jean Claude Junker openly admitting

      when it gets serious, you have to lie

      regarding what is really being discussed for euro zone monetary policy. Watch this video where he says the economic policy of Europe should be discussed in "dark, secret rooms" and away from open discussion.

      Just look at his wikiquote page, he's got plenty that may change your dad's mind.

      [–]The_Yar 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

      Why is this a problem? Did Greece not buy things with that money?

      All they're saying now is, "all that stuff you got, you have to pay for it. If you don't have money, then barter is fine."

      [–]dieyoung 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

      How did they get that money in the first place? The ECB gave them money despite the fact that they knew Greece couldn't pay it back without constantly borrowing more. There is nothing stopping the ECB from printing euros besides political whim; they can issue credit without having any capital reserves at all, unlike every other bank in the world. They have the monopoly on the production of the currency and it costs them nothing to make more. They were essentially giving Greece credit cards to pay off their other credit cards. Would a regular bank constantly issue someone credit when they were already negligent on past payments? Of course not because they would be exposed to risk. Central banks do not have that concern.

      It's a fact that Greece was completely irresponsible with their finances, but the ECB kept loaning them money for this exact reason. They now have the political capital to seize Greek assets and auction them of to their friends at Goldman Sachs.

      [–]jeanduluoz 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Exactly. Germany loves this shit for two reasons:

      1. German banks make a shit ton of money by financing Greece at high interest rates and enormous loans.

      2. German manufacturing exists because they use the Euro. If germany was on its own currency, its exchange rate would be way too high to be competitive. However, their monetary calculus is spread over the remainder of the EU so they functionally have an exchange rate lower than it otherwise would be, boosting their manufacturing and exports.

      [–]Tsilent_Tsunami 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Would a regular bank constantly issue someone credit when they were already negligent on past payments?

      If they had major assets backing up the loan, sure.

      [–]dieyoung 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      The ECB can issue credit without and capital reserves to back it up. Only central banks can do this and why they have no risk when it comes to issuing loans.

      [–]The_Yar 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      There's two sides to it, but you make it sound as if "Greece" is just some poor uneducated person who got roped into a risky mortgage. I assume they knew that in borrowing this money, they would need to pay it back. They needed to invest in being productive, but instead they used the money to buy votes.

      The alternative would have been to force the issue up front. To refuse to loan the money unless Greece agreed top run all its legal and policy decisions through a board approval process at the EBC.

      But of course, that would have created an even bigger shitstorm, a bank trying to take over a country essentially. Instead, they let Greece retain their sovereignty, and abuse the work of other nations to live in prosperity without sharing in the productivity. Now they have to pay somehow, or no one's going to ever pay.

      EBC can print money, sure, but if they aren't printing it relative to the actual production of its members, then its value drops. They can print the paper, but they can't create its value.

      [–]Free_Joty 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

      Funny money? Wtf

      If greece could pay back the " funny money" , this wouldn't be an issue. If they knew they couldn't pay it back, they shouldn't have taken it.

      [–]dieyoung 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

      If the ECB knew Greece couldn't have paid the money back, they shouldn't have issued the loan. That is the risk for the lender, potential default on the part of the borrower.

      [–]Tsilent_Tsunami 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

      If the ECB knew Greece couldn't have paid the money back, they shouldn't have issued the loan.

      Greece is not without assets. If nothing else, they own a fairly large amount of desirable real estate.

      [–]hotoatmeal 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      It's effectively loan sharking... issuing loans that you know will default, with the end goal being asset seizure. Carefully crafted theft.

      [–]dieyoung 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Which is exactly what the EU was after in the first place.

      [–]dztrucktion 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      how dare, you! the IMF an World Bank are our friends! They have our best interests in mind, like always.

      [–]hoinurd 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I'm still holding out hope that this is not true. I hope Tsipras goes back to the Greek government, and they vote no on the terms of the bailout. Then Tsipras turns around, and says "Sorry, they wouldn't go for it" and gives Merkel the bird and walks away.

      [–]dieyoung 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I hope that's what happens

      [–]etmetm 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Apparently Greece has 112 metric tons of gold worth ~4 billion EUR. I wonder whether that'll be part of the deal or not.

      If not, I think it's an indication that Greece knows they are just buying more time before introducing their own currency. At the end of the day - if you're going to default the absolute number of billions owed may not matter anymore

      [–]tamnoswal 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

      "We have an a-Greek-ment." A fuckin pun?! Is this a real quote? What in sweet merciful fuck is happening??

      [–]pennyservices 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

      You know if I don't keep giving the evil bankers money every month they will take my home. I keep emailing them demanding that I be let off 50% of the debt, but they keep telling me to fuck off. This is a coup I tell you.

      [–]danweber 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      AND THEY DEMAND PAYMENT IN (F)IAT!!

      [–]joecoin 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      That was not Merkel mentioned in the genesis block, it was about the English chancellor Alistair Darling.

      http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/industries/banking/article2160028.ece

      [–]justgimmieaname 14ポイント15ポイント  (3子コメント)

      Who needs invading armies and nukes to conquer the world? Thats so 20th century.

      Now all you need to subjugate the serfs is a central bank and a reserve, fiat currency.

      [–]jjolla888 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      This is Germany's third attempt to corner Europe in the last ~100 years ... Maybe their best chance yet

      Heil Merkel

      [–]auryn0151 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Yeah but you need armies to use against the people when they try to use alternative currencies.

      [–]BinaryResult 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Or try to reclaim 100,000 acres held by a single banker in a foreign country so they can feed their families.

      [–]saddit42 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

      So who are they selling it to?

      [–]fulltimegeek 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Those who own the IMF and all the central banks; The top 10 richest families of the world. This includes the Rockefellers, Rothschilds, Warburgs etc.

      LEARN MORE HERE

      [–]PriceZombie 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

      None Dare Call It Conspiracy

      Current $15.15 Amazon (New)
      High $15.95 Amazon (New)
      Low $11.49 Amazon (New)
      $15.15 (30 Day Average)

      Price History Chart and Sales Rank | FAQ

      [–]grimeandreason 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      They don't even get the Euros. The assets will be held by a Swiss Bank, which Schauble himself is the director of (seems legit) and the sales will go directly to banks.

      It's basically just "give us all your stuff".

      In fact, Paul Mason on TWitter questionned whether Greece even has 50m euros worth of assets to give.

      This deal seems designed to be too bad to accept. Germany has thoroughly fucked the entire concept of the EU here.

      [–]KoKansei 13ポイント14ポイント  (15子コメント)

      What's next? Monopoly money in exchange for young virgin Greek women? How much more humiliated and degraded does Greece need to be before they string up Tsipras and the rest of those banking cartel dick-sucking cowards on lamp posts?

      [–]dieyoung 7ポイント8ポイント  (12子コメント)

      At least you can touch monopoly money. The vast majority of fiat is purely digital, they don't even have to pay for the ink and paper anymore.

      [–]danweber 6ポイント7ポイント  (11子コメント)

      You know what other currency is digital???

      [–]dieyoung 3ポイント4ポイント  (10子コメント)

      Let me guess, the one that has a hard cap on how many will ever be created?

      [–]jjolla888 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (9子コメント)

      Except for the hundreds (thousands?) of alternatives also vying for importance ... Using similar if not the same algorithms

      [–]dieyoung -1ポイント0ポイント  (8子コメント)

      /u/danweber was insinuating that bitcoin is just as bad as fiat money because it is also digital. I was pointing out the difference being that there are a finite amount of bitcoin that will ever be created, while there is theoretically no limit to the amount of fiat money that can be created.

      [–]coinaday 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Monopoly money in exchange for young virgin Greek women?

      ...worth a shot.

      コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

        [–]help-tina 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        And Greece still accepted it.

        Because a return to the drachma would have been more disasterous - even though it's their call how many of those to print.

        If you wanna play, you gotta pay the price...

        We should focus on bitcoin's actual advantages for this day and age, not live in utopias or spew bullshit. Change isn't gonna happen suddenly or overnight, this is not how the world works.

        And there was nothing wrong in the agreement if Greece still wanted to go through with it.

        [–]MrEoss 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        All true yes, but the fact is that the heads of states who have imposed these conditions upon Greece represent taxpayers in their own countries that have parted with money that they didn't want to part with, to support the dream of yesteryears leaders of a European project that could rival existing and emerging contemporary super powers. Greece has jeopardised its position and the whole project for far too long, Greece should never have been allowed to join and should not have been allowed to continue to be a part of the Eurozone. The only way forward from the shambolic state in which Europe finds itself in today was to either leave the eurozone (which neither Greece nor the rest of Europe desire as it will be a big blow for the ideal and the markets will react badly which could bring about a demise even sooner) or to offer assistance with some kind of collateral. Its clear that the Greeks have been pissing around and now it has to stop unless everyone is to get r right royally fucked up the arse!

        [–]JohnStoltz -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

        "proper fucked?" "yes, Tommy, before zee Germans get there."

        [–]laisee 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Sounds like fair trade, given the greek government needs Billions in cash ASAP and Euro zone doesn't want to lose any more money on bail outs.

        How else should the other democratic Euro nations act - simply write out blank cheques anytime for anyone with no collateral required?

        [–]jeanduluoz 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I mean, regardless of other pairs, BTC / EU is looking like a real fuckin sick pair to trade.

        [–]GoodPhantomBadDog 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        There is nothing in your source saying that.

        [–]jedigras 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        This crap deal, will push Greece and by extension the EU closer to rioting. That is the greatest risk to the central banking system at this point. Not that the central bankers get to decide on haircuts, but that people unite and just say FU to the bankers and no longer pay back to them.

        Most bankers and governments see this risk and are quietly moving to restrict free market p2p assets transfer mechanisms such as physical cash. By keeping everyone into a fully centralized and controlled digital economy, they are able to institute capital controls and do bail-ins at will ala Greece.

        I read some article somewhere that said, the threshold for rioting and overthrowing the government has historically been around 40% unemployment. I think we are much closer to that number in Greece at this point than the stats actually say.

        Actually, the YOUTH unemployment rate is over that rate already. https://ycharts.com/indicators/greece_youth_unemployment_rate_lfs

        [–]Alchemy333 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        This is an intelligent test for the people of Greece.

        [–]runshitson 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Let's not pretend bitcoin isn't made out of thin air too. Some of you want bitcoin to succeed so much you have completely distorted wtf bitcoin is/isn't anymore.

        [–]PM_ME_PETS 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Yeah and then those Euros they "create out of thin air" will magically begin to devalue all the other euros that every other solvent European nation earned for themselves.

        [–]cap2002 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Insanity is truely at work here. Damn.

        [–]evoorhees 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I think the Greek government selling state-owned assets to pay off state-incurred debts is actually one of the most reasonable ideas that has been conjured (much more ethical than taxing people). It would be best, indeed, if every state asset was sold/privatized, and if the government was henceforth never able to take on debt ever again.

        [–]CanaryInTheMine 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        in the big picture, at the end of the day, a gov is just the people and their consent, so the people are the owners ultimately, no? but they have no say here apparently (no vote is ignored?), they are getting dictated to. but then again, this is the latest trend, politicians no longer care what their constituents say.

        [–]DollarSignEyes 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Tsiparis is just buying another few days. Chances are it wont pass wednesday (btc will jump up like crazy!) and if it somehow does get ready for chaos and violent riots in greece that will eventually break it anyway.

        [–]Billybaggins1234 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        This is what I'm predicting

        [–]BinaryResult 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        There will be no Greece left after a few more rounds of bailouts. Some banker wants Greece for his trophy case and it looks like he may get it.

        [–]bell2366 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I'll lay money Tsipras has been offered a cozy euro quango position further down the road!

        [–]Speedy1050 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        They knew what Greece was about before lending to them in the first place. More bad judgement from bankers.

        [–]tones2013 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        They really have no choice here. But theres nothing stopping them from going back on the agreement once their ducks are in a row. I hope they ship in spare decommissioned Zimbabwean currency to adopt then renationalize everything the corporate raiders steal from them. Then drop out of nato and invite the russians to establish a naval base on their land for good measure.

        [–]alarm_test 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Agree to anything now...renegotiate later.

        [–]cqm 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        ECB printed (monetized) way more than 60 billion worth in the month :) :)

        Shit dude, I wish I could just monetize stuff. It isn't like "printing", it is like when you have a No Preset Limit card. Every time you charge you have exchanged new money for a good and service. This is what the ECB is doing.

        [–]Not_A_Porcupine 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Meh

        [–]JustPlainAngry 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Hungry people are easy to negotiate with.

        [–]pchampn 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I expect Russia and China to make a move on EU in Greece.

        [–]ConditionDelta 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I have to imagine they're not that stupid and it's a part of a bigger plan.

        Trying to take this much forces Greece out of the EU. Greece out of the EU forces them into the hands of China and Russia. China and Russia now have a port in a very strategic location

        [–]jrm2007 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        But they owe the EU Euros. What do they care whether they are printed every month or not? Would it be better if they owed the EU monuments?

        [–]cyph3rpunk 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        This is a fucking robbery.

        [–]comicland 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Just leave the EU already.

        [–]xorq 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        suicide of the greek government is a good thing

        [–]iWeyerd 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Fire up another set of money printers...a bailout is coming!

        [–]dieyoung 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Or maybe a bail in...

        [–]drcode 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        To be fair, if the EU really ends up controlling some Greek islands, and governing them, I'd bet many Greeks would volunteer to move to them.

        [–]keihardhet -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I'm not even in Greece and I feel bad, really bad... there is some 'power' above us all here in the EU, that can just take our money away from us (through the banks) without anything that can be done. Even if we vote against the EU (which I did) we still get the same dictatorship of money that transfers all assets and land to the same 200 rich families while the rest of us can work their ass of to get minimum wages. Today is the day EU lost all it's values.

        [–]knircky -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Greece should take these asses and create a crypto with it and pay their bills with it and allow it as taxes and default on its debt.

        [–]evilpumpkin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        create a crypto

        Why? If you want honest money just sell good and services for Bitcoin.

        [–]tones2013 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        most greeks are very backwards and not at all tech literate. Furthermore they need a currency they can depreciate. Bitcoin would be a pointless course for them.

        [–]hseldon10 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Euros aren't made out of "thin air". If anything, they're made of whatever metal the coins are made out of, and of paper.

        AND, Euros devalue whenever more are created.

        2, the Greek people did not vote "no" to the EU.

        3, it isn't an exchange on Greek land and other assets. It is a privatization of the land and assets. They obviously stay on Greece, but multiplying its productive capacity.

        4, this is not a coup. The government isn't forcibly changing.

        5, Bitcoin is beyond the scope of the discussion. It adds nothing of value to it.

        6, No one is giving up democracy for economic security. Most Greeks want to stay in the EU.

        7, As far as I know, all Greeks in Greece are free. Just because they don't agree with you, doesn't mean they are un-free.

        [–]jben1982 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Fuck the EU.

        People from there should convert to BTC ASAP before they lose it all.

        [–]hexmap -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I would ask even more, fuck thats why I don't believe in EURO, just put a bullet in a heard

        [–]SnarkyFartBlast -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Isn't that technically blackmail?

        [–]7_HotHighAir_7 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Yeah screw the euro. Real assets are far greater than FIAT HOT FARTS.

        [–]2beer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        There's not a chance the Greeks will approve this deal after voting against it last week.

        As much as I sympathise with the German lenders, if a default causes a German bank financial difficulty it is just not a properly run bank. If that bank is too big to fail then it is a disservice to everyone, and if that bank is the ECB then it just is not run properly.

        Prolonging Greek agony when they should default is disgusting.

        [–]connect_fist -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Um. Doesn't Greece have land? Can't they just boost their economy by producing more agricultural shit like olive oil, tomatoes, olives, and other things? Happy to buy it abroad, like someone else pointed out. Now Greece won't own this shit, it will just be politicians new vacation homes in Greece. They don't live there; they don't care about the crisis.

        [–]meshekk -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

        EU dictatorship, Varoufakis said they are terrorists for the our people. Debt=Beast,Beast=Debt And the beast enslave us all by the debt.

        [–]HCrikki -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

        The troika is the new Wehrmacht...

        [–]Vryonorg -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Fuck the European Union. As a Portuguese person I am trying hard to find a job and I'm on my 2nd course now, but 4 years after I finished school I am still unemployed thanks to Austerity.

        I'd riot in the streets if I was greek.

        [–]alarm_test -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

        This must surely be the first time that a politician has made a promise that they knew, or should have known, they could not deliver on, just so they could get into power.

        They should send Tsipras to Guantanamo Bay. I hear it's still open.

        [–]daveime -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

        That they make from thin air

        As opposed to making it from wasted electricity.

        [–]Child-in-Time 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

        You make it sound like the EU is fucking over Greece.

        As a European following this very closely, let me give you the bigger picture.

        Greece has no money. They are bankrupt. They have been bankrupt for years and Europe has given them massive amounts of money already.

        They were meant to give back that money a week ago but they did not, and so the Greeks voted "no" aka: "Fuck Europe for lending us gigantic sums of money, while we continue to live above our means!"

        They lied about their financial situation to get into the European union in the first place, and ever since then they've been reaping the benefits, while giving absolutely nothing in return.

        "But they're just poor! What can they do??" - you say. Tax evasion is HUGE and has even been described by Greek politicians as "a national sport". Each year approximately €30 billion of tax is uncollected.

        There are countries way poorer than Greece in the European union, yet they're not causing any trouble. Why? Because they don't live beyond their means and the rich pay their taxes. Greece needs to fix it's internal problems with tax evasion and corruption before blaming the European Union.

        [–]CanaryInTheMine 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        so let them declare bankruptcy and start with a clean slate (iceland)... what's that? Oh, you don't want to lose your money? take it up with your un-elected governments decision to accept a bad loan. It is the EU fucking over Greece and the rest of EU people because they knew Greek economy did not reach the EU membership status but they did it anyway. start there.