Who do ylu think should be the new labour leader?

DressedToKill · 2時間前

If you're not angry you're either not paying attention or you're a sociopath.

usrname42 · 3時間前

I've worked hard for years, it's got me nowhere.

In Britain if you want to get ahead you need to be born to wealthy parents. Working hard is a nice idea but in the real world it gets you nowhere.

ExCuredHerring · 6時間前

You seem to have a mystical faith in the power of unions. I believe they serve a purpose for certain jobs, unskilled or specific roles usually, they are nowhere near a fit for all and certainly wouldn't help me.

Actually it's the other way around. Usually unskilled work is easier to replace and easier to automate, so it's harder to organise unions there. Skilled labour is harder to replace, and so therefore unions have greater bargaining power. This is why key infastructure in the public sector often has very high unionisation rates - see how long your society lasts when your fire brigade goes on strike, or if the tube network stays down for weeks at a time, and so on.

How could a union negotiate with my employer for me?

I'd need to know a lot of detail about your specific role to help you there. But the principle works the same - an individual up against a company has much less bargaining power than a large group of people. You can start off by putting minimum standards accross your entire industry, to prevent unscrupulous employers undercutting your wages and forcing them down when there's a high demand for jobs, that'd be a good start.

Pallas_ · 6時間前

While I don't really think the Germans are as nasty as you suggest they are

Oh they really are, don't think for a second they'd feel bad about inflicting widescale starvation upon the Greeks for choosing the wrong government, the German people are overwhelmingly calling for collective punishment of Greece, 80%+ in some polls.

DressedToKill · 7時間前

Ending slavery? Well y'know, we did like pioneer it, the entire trans-atlantic slave trade was dominated by the British.

You want the credit for "ending" slavery but not the criticism for profiting from it massively for over a hundred years? Seems a bit stupid to me...

DressedToKill · 7時間前

If that happens enjoy your starvation rations as the economy spectacularly implodes USSR style.

Baseless speculation and wishful thinking combined into one there, very nice.

Scotland won't become independent, as soon as they get real power rather than the joke of devolution we have now the SNP will die because they're economically illiterate and their policy will make Scotland poorer when they actually have to raise funds in Scotland rather than through Barnett.

The English right have been saying this since they won the referendum. And yet here they are. Besides, even if the SNP does come down, something fundamental changed at a basic level in Scotland, although you can't make sense of it. You can't keep such a highly politicized and educated population in line any more. They're not passive any more. They'll leave. Make no mistake. It could be soon, it could be late, it could be easy, it could be messy, but however it happens it'll happen. People in Scotland will not accept being ruled over by a Tory party that's universally hated indefinitely.

Tories don't hate the North

Yes they do, they always have, because they're the party of the wealthy southern property owner and the City, not the party of working class people, whom they fear and despise.

It's about class more than geography though.

This is /r/conspiracy material, tinfoil-hat nonsense.

It's really not at all, I've seen it first hand. There's numerous media reports about it from a variety of decent sources, 2 minutes googling would sort you out.

I asked for a source, not an anecdote.

I am your source, I'm a living witness to these things, I've seen them with my own two eyes. You can accuse me of lying if it means you can avoid dealing with the consequences of your vile anti-human Tory ideology.

I'm appalled at the idea of welfare paying better than work. I'm appalled at the idea of a country paralysed by a bloated government spending beyond it's means. I'm appalled at the thought of money I've worked hard for being forcibly taken away and pissed into the wind by an incompetent government on things like diversity officers and bouncy-castle attendants. What I am not appalled at is voting for a party that has largely improved this situation.

So you're appalled at anti welfare tabloid froth? LOL you're the sort of mug the Daily Mail loves the most.

I think the real reason you're a Tory voter is this: "I'm appalled at the thought of money I've worked hard for being forcibly taken away" and you shouldn't even waste your time trying to cover your naked selfishness with some veneer of political respectability. It's exactly as I said

Then they're turkeys who admire the thought of Christmas, the SNP think they'll create another Norway but they're more likely to bring about another Greece.

Well unless the SNP is planning on introducing austerity measures that will destroy the Scottish economy I don't see much chance of that.

You mean by pulling the plug on an industry that was draining taxpayer money like a financial colander?

YUP, although tbh they destroyed the indstury purely to destroy the miners union, because like any Tory government there's nothing they hate more than well-organised and militant working-class people to be engaged in trade unionism. They prefer workers to be passive slaves to market forces.

Except the North don't want independence or even devolution as multiple polls and a referendum have shown.

Well I'm from the North, I argue in favour of breaking away in every political conversation I can with members of the public, and the idea of throwing the Labour party into the sea where it belongs and having an SNP for the North of England always gets a good reception, even from people not usually associated with the political left. There's no future for us as part of Britain, so we should do our own thing and leave the (rump) UK to it.

Do you even know what that term means? A failed state is one that's collapsed like Afghanistan. The sixth largest economy on the planet and home to the most important commercial city in human history is not a failed state.

"The most important commercial city in human history" you say this like it's something to be a part of. I'd like to see the City of London corporation disbaned, the banks nationalised, and the offices in that part of London to be made into council houses for Tower Hamlets (maybe a mosque or two

You'll be poorer that's for sure.

Well I've already been made poorer by 6 years of Tory economics, so it's a bit insincere for a self-described Tory to try pretending they care about my level of income.

ExCuredHerring · 7時間前

They're really not

I bet it'd be a hell of a lot more if you weren't negotiating with your employer alone.

You have a near mystical faith in the fairness of the market when markets aren't and never have been about fairness, it's about power, cold hard power.

big_al11 · 7時間前

Of course. I'm just saying when you show empathy and decency towards a Tory they don't see it those terms, they see it as a weakness to be exploited. They'd never reciprocate, they just want to take advantage of your human decency.

Don't give in to it. If these people want to be treated as members of the human race they can denounce their cruel and wicked Toryism and that'll be fine, until then they're nothing more than an enemy and should be treated that way.

ExCuredHerring · 7時間前

Well no one fought for mine or my wife's rights to our salaries.

I daresay that's why your salaries are shit. Join a union. You can be the most go-getting buccaneering individualist in the world but unless you're in a union they'll always be able to shaft you.

You're probably getting paid half what you ought to be and you don't even realise it. If only your bosses were so altruistic!

DressedToKill · 7時間前

International Relations and Politics if you must know. Did well too, got a first. And every job I've had since is minimum wage cos I come from a poor family who aren't politically connected. Doing an unpaid internship in London isn't an option for me, so the absolute tory dolts thick as fuck but who have wealthy parents can get jobs, whilst I wait their tables, serve their drinks, etc etc.

DressedToKill · 7時間前

Your mam

ExCuredHerring · 7時間前

Well surely all people working do that? Where does the middle class start and the working end?

Yup. Middle-class is just a working-class person who happens to earn a high salary. They're the sort of thing that can only happen if working-class people fight hard for their rights. You don't get to be middle-class by the charitable-ness of your bosses and the kindness of the government, you have to fight for it, as the RMT has shown.

Your ability to negotiate is based on what you're worth, that's capitalism

It's really not. You can be the most skilled person on earth but if the labour market doesn't favour you at that particular point in time you won't get paid anything above a pittance. Capitalism isn't about being fair y'know!

DressedToKill · 7時間前

Don't be ridiculous, I'm not a landlord! I'm not a pensioner! I'm young, educated, left-wing and broke, I'm exactly the sort of person the British state despises the most.

I've had 6 budgets in a row where, according to the ol' BBC "what do you stand to gain" calculator that I've been made worse off! 6 in a row! Think I might've taken a hint that the powers that be aren't looking out for my interests any more. I've worked at a foodbank here and seen hungry children queing up on a sunday morning, eating cold beans out of a can because they can't afford to put money on the card to pay for electricity.

You spend a few years living in a poor working class community at a foodbank, or doing homeless work, or trying to talk your mentally ill friends being bullied out of the ESA and Disability Living Allowance into not committing suicide, then you'll be angry too. If anyone could've seen the shit I've seen and not be angry they'd have to be a Tory sociopath.

DressedToKill · 7時間前

This, gentlemen is why there is such thing as a shy Tory.

I think it's because they're rightfully ashamed of themselves, they know what they're doing when they identify with Tory ideology is saying "fuck you" to the very notion of human dignity, to the very idea of a society where people look out for each other, and they do it because they care more about their house prices and their money than they do about human life itself. That's something to be ashamed of.

And btw I say it to people IRL and I've not got a problem with looking people dead in the eye and saying it. You wouldn't believe the number of pub brawls I've been in over the years :D

Calling us subhuman?

If it looks like a cockroach, acts like a cockroach etc etc

Wanting to inflict violence on us?

Never said that. I said that there's no level of violence which could be inflicted upon you that I would have a problem with. I have no wish to inflict violence on anyone, but if it just so happens a Tory gets hit by a bus or drowns in a swimming pool or gets ebola then LOL that's just fine by me. The world needs more dead Tories imo.

You sound like a disgusting human being

I'm actually a really nice bloke irl, but I don't extend my decency to people for whom it would be wasted on. Trying to show kindness and common decency to people who simply don't believe in it is a fools errand, it'd be just as futile as trying to teach arabic to your pet cat.

DressedToKill · 7時間前

He's spot on. British Empire killed more innocent people than Fascism and Communism combined, and for a much longer historical period too. It's astonishing that we in Britain haven't come to terms with our past the way the Germans have (partially) attempted to with theirs.

DressedToKill · 7時間前

You have British citizenship, you are bound by our laws and pay taxes. You vote for an MP (unless you don't vote in which case you have absolutely zero right to complain) who represents you in our parliament. Your job contributes to this country's economy. This country is yours as much as mine.

And none of it is mine. Not one blade of grass. It doesn't belong to me, and all the rest of this was foisted on my by accident of birth, and quite frankly I'd like to be a independent European state along with Scotland and Catalonia and these others, cos culturally and politically I feel no affinity at all with the people who live in the Tory areas. They hate me, I hate them, and it's better for all concerned if we went our seperate ways instead of having one group ruling over the other like a feudal baron.

Suicide is a complex issue which is firmly bound to mental health, I don't think it's appropriate or fair to use it as ammunition in political debates.

It's not complex when bullying people into committing suicide is the one of the policies the DWP uses to reduce the benefits bill.

Source? Preferably one that isn't chronically biased against the Conservative Party but any will do.

Well I volunteer at a foodbank at a Church, I see this shit all the time, and I'm very biased against the Conservative Party.

One of the best things about being a British citizen is that you live in a free country

No I don't. I live in a country that hates it's young, and exists primarily as a place where wealthy people can invest in property. Britain is not a free country it's a country ruled by propertied interests.

a country that practically invented the modern democracy

laughs

A benefit of a free country is that if you for some unfathomable reason seem to think it is Hell on Earth you are perfectly welcome to leave for 27 other countries instead of lowering the tone for everyone else.

Well actually what I'm hoping for (and I'm not the only one) is that there's an SNP for the North of England and we can become independent of London rule. It's only a matter of time for Scotland, and when they go we'll follow.

I'm not a sociopath, I voted Tory

Yes you are. If you had any concern whatsoever about the lives of other people you'd be appalled at the very thought of voting Tory, because voting Tory makes you complicit in murder. You want to keep what you "earn" because you couldn't give a flying fuck about other human beings and infact like most Tories are happy to see them suffer as long as you're doing fine, as long as your house-prices keep going up, etc.

conservatism made gains in the North and separatism is a view held by a lunatic fringe.

No it's really not, most Labour voters I speak to are very admiring of the SNP would like something like that for Yorkshire.

This is historically wrong on every level

It's a figure of speech.

And whatever way you wish to express it, I'm not prepared to live under the rule of perpetual Tory government that despises the North of England, physically detests us and wishes us harm, that destroyed my community in the 80's and let us to rot and hasn't stopped battering us ever since. The only way out of that is indepedence. Britain is a failed state, propped up by the City and the parasitic rentier landlord class. We gain nothing by living as part of it, and we'll be treated little better than a colony if we don't leave asap.

ExCuredHerring · 8時間前

Higher tax band is working class now?

Yeah absolutely! They work, they sell their labour for a wage, that makes them working class! The point of the union is to improve their wages, so they can live a decent life, own a house, own a car. I have no problem with that whatsoever, and if you don't mind me saying you seem to be buying into the politics of envy somewhat here...

Oh thats the reason, it's not because they tend to get jobs that promote and reward people based on merit rather than which union they pay into.

Merit? Get your head out of your arse, merit has nothing to do with it. In a capitalist market based economy you don't get what you deserve you get what you negotiate.

The tube will be automated regardless of public opnion, but then when your job's turn to get automated who's gonna stick up for you? Oh it's ok, I'm sure that'll never happen to you.

DressedToKill · 8時間前

Britain hates me! Why do you demand I am loyal to people who wish me harm? Would you expect a prisoner to feel loyal to the screws?

Fuck Britain, it means nothing to me, Britain's ruled by banks and landlords, everyone else is little better than a serf.

DressedToKill · 8時間前

I'm saying when it was first formed they were left-wing

They were formed to deliberately sabotage the Labour party and were motivated by a hatred of Tony Benn.

That's right-wing in my book.

DressedToKill · 8時間前

Yes. Fuck 'em.

Tories are like the Zombies in Call of Duty, they're not human, so you can do whatever you want to them without feeling even a slight a twinge of guilt.

Pallas_ · 8時間前

Germany has always viewed itself as the pre-eminent power in Europe. They have had an ambition, since 1871, to be the hegemonic power in Europe. They rampaged around the contintent in two wars in the first half of the 20th century, killing people by the tens of millions in crimes unprecidented in humanity for their savagery, to achieve this aim. Deep in the German psyche is an incredible capacity for cruelty. Just as the Germans knew about the holocaust and overwhelmingly either supported it or were indifferent to it, they're utterly indifferent about the suffering the Greek people are enduring as a result of their failed austerity policies.

Because of this deep-seated political desire to dominate others, modern Germany has no respect for the sovereignty of small nations. This was true of Belgium in 1914, and it was true of Poland in 1939, and it's true today with regards to Greece. They consider themselves the master-culture, that all others must emulate, and all resistance to it crushed. The smaller nations are worthy of only being vassals to their superior German overlords.

Krugman is totally right. The ECB shut down the Greek banks to starve the Greek people into submission, and to enact regime change against a democratically elected sovereign government in order to terrify the populations of Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy etc into accepting perpetual German dominance. The proposals that were leaked from Germany are saying that all governmental decisions have to be handed over to a team of troika inspectors, that the entire country's state assetts should be handed over to the German government (in what must be the most brazen attempt at looting seen since the IMF went on the rampage in South America in the early 90's) and that laws which will further impoverish the Greek people, ban strikes, cut what remains of the public safety.

Make no mistake, this is a coup. It's an attempt to secure regime change by Germany who cannot allow an unruly province in their Empire to challenge the borderline religious desires to achieve political supremacy over continental Europe.

This is of course very bad for Britain. Historically the interests of the British are to prevent the emergence of a united European hegemon that could challenge them, and in doing so rely on it's Empire and trading position outside of Europe to be it's main source of wealth. However now, with no Empire, and more economically reliant on Europe than ever, Britain faces the choice - do we submit and become a colony in the German Empire or do we leave and watch capital flee the country, leaving Britain little more than a hedge fund floating off the cost of Europe.

I'll be voting to leave the European Union and every other person, left or right, who believes in the principle of national self-determination, sovereignty, the rule of law and democracy ought to do the same, as these things are incompatable with membership of the EU.

Tophattingson · 8時間前

I'm intolerant towards racists and supporters of State Terrorism, yes, absolutely. They're on the list of "people I refuse to tolerate" along with Tories, Rapists, Peadophiles, ISIS, and Leeds Utd fans.

ExCuredHerring · 8時間前

However, by doing so they should not expect the support of the public, compassion or solidarity....

Of course, this is Britain. We like seeing workers have their wages destroyed. We are prepared to throw fellow human beings to the dogs if we're mildly inconvenienced in our daily business.

Why should a young professional earning less than half a tube drivers wage, with masses of Uni debt feel solidarity and compassion with them?

Because they also happen to be working class, and like a tube driver their ability to live a decent life depends on how well they can organise in the marketplace. That's what unions do - they improve your bargaining position by harnassing the power of collective action. That applies to every job.

I must have missed the RMT striking over student tuition fees?

That's because political strikes are illegal. You can thank Maggie Thatcher for that btw.

Of course, they choose not to be in unions, and that's why they get shit wages and end up spending 40% of their incomes subsidising their landlords. But that's another story.

DressedToKill · 8時間前

How's it "my" country? I don't own any of it. It's not mine any more than a prison is owned by it's prisoners.

It's run by people who hate me, who want to inflict suffering upon me. I feel no affinity at all to the people who destroyed my community, bullied my friends into committing suicide, I've seen grandma's and disabled people evicted from homes because of the Bedroom Tax, people picking through bins for food, fights breaking out at foodbanks over the last remaining tins of food . What possible reason would I have to remain a part of a nation that's actively trying to destroy my future?

You can call me a traitor all you want, compared to being an apologist and a defender of this state it's a label I'd wear with pride.

I'm from Yorkshire, the North of England, I have a very different set of cultural and political beliefs to the sociopathic freaks who vote Tory, so why should I be forced to lived under their heel?

I want the North of England to be free, not to be the last colony of the British Empire.

GeorgeMellor

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